ND's Academic Reputation

[PerthDomer]

Mendoza does not equal ND and Wharton does not equal Penn. Mendoza until recently took anyone who wanted in and Wharton has separate admissions from Penn (I've heard Wharton is as difficult if not more so than Harvard to get into). I'd guess the average domer is close to as intelligent as the average UPenn kid but Wharton kids substantially more accomplished coming in than the average Mendoza kid.

 

[magogian]

Guys, are we comparing undergrad business schools or MBA?

My understand is that ND's undergrad business school is fantastic but the MBA is not nearly as highly regarded, as an MBA from Wharton, etc.

 

[PerthDomer]

I'm talking undergrad. Wharton is much more highly regarded than Mendoza.

 

[jimmymac]

I'm talking undergrad. Wharton is much more highly regarded than Mendoza.

I think you'd be surprised how highly regarded Mendoza is. For one, Mendoza has arguably the best accounting program in the country, while Wharton has none. I'm from Philadelphia, am a rising senior in Mendoza, and while I think Wharton>Mendoza, I certainly dont think Wharton>>>>Mendoza. Also, I chose ND over Wharton, and am incredibly satisfied by the decision. Mendoza gets mad love from the business world.

 

[PerthDomer]

The thing that impresses me about Mendoza is there's no seperate admissions process, and it takes a lot of the kids who drop out of Engineering/Science. It then manages to place those kids into jobs. My impression of business people at ND was there were some really smart kids, but there was a sizeable population of unmotivated kids.

I've also heard from friends that Wharton people would eat their kids to make an extra buck, so there's a very different culture at the two schools.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Or... just come to Bama AND get paid while you're there. Can't many schools offer that kinda ROI so quickly. Our four year salary projections are off the chain. Thirty year projections... meh.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Or... just come to Bama AND get paid while you're there. Can't many schools offer that kinda ROI so quickly. Our four year salary projections are off the chain. Thirty year projections... meh.

Your 4 year projections are probably based off the 4 years those players are in school. Not to many schools pay their players the $ Bama does. I don't see you losing the top spot in that category for some time.

 

[jimmymac]

Or... just come to Bama AND get paid while you're there. Can't many schools offer that kinda ROI so quickly. Our four year salary projections are off the chain. Thirty year projections... meh.

lol this is great

 

[tussin]

Based on Payscale rankings we all made the wrong decision and should have went to SUNY Maritime.

 

[tussin]

Snark aside, I think it's hard to put much faith in the Payscale rankings when they don't appear to consider the academic / major distribution of the students at each institution.

For example, using the sources linked at the bottom of my post, roughly 45% of ND undergrads are in Business or Engineering programs, compared to only 33% at Penn. This will undoubtedly skew the ROI data in ND's favor. Many more Penn students are in liberal arts type majors or even in their nursing program.

Students // At a Glance // About ND // University of Notre Dame
Penn: Penn Facts

 

[ND NYC]

the paper (diploma/school you went to) will get you the interview...but it is the person who gets the job.

 

[ThePiombino]

Even if not immediate PT, Northwestern probably gives him the best chance to see the field the most in his career. It's also a great school (and he's reportedly serious about academics). Distance does not appear to be an issue. And they've reportedly been talking with him, frankly, much longer than the other bigger names that came lately. I wouldn't underestimate their chances.

Sorry if this comes across as rude, but I'm an actions over words guy. He who is serious about academics simply does not entertain Bama as an option. Not when the like of Northwestern and Notre Dame are options.

 

[yankeeND]

Sorry if this comes across as rude, but I'm an actions over words guy. He who is serious about academics simply does not entertain Bama as an option. Not when the like of Northwestern and Notre Dame are options.

People say that, but any of these big state universities offer great educations. I understand that the likes of ND and NW are elite, but it doesn't mean the other schools are bad. At UNC, you can get an amazing education, but if you can't spell Adidas then they will find another way to keep you eligible. Personally I just think that it is unfair to say a degree from x school is meaningless. I'm not saying that you are saying that, but I am saying it depends a lot on the kid as well.

 

[JTLA]

People say that, but any of these big state universities offer great educations. I understand that the likes of ND and NW are elite, but it doesn't mean the other schools are bad. At UNC, you can get an amazing education, but if you can't spell Addidas then they will find another way to keep you eligible. Personally I just think that it is unfair to say a degree from x school is meaningless. I'm not saying that you are saying that, but I am saying it depends a lot on the kid as well.

lol

 

[yankeeND]

lol

Sigh, touché my friend, but you get the gist.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

People say that, but any of these big state universities offer great educations. I understand that the likes of ND and NW are elite, but it doesn't mean the other schools are bad.

Who said they're "bad"? ND, Stanford and Duke are just much much better.

At UNC, you can get an amazing education...

Relatively speaking, UNC isn't a very good undergraduate institution. It's in the bottom quartile for degree value among BCS schools. Even in its own state, both Duke and NCSU are significantly better. Like Michigan, UNC is a large research institution with some outstanding graduate programs, but that has no bearing on the quality of its undergraduate education.

Personally I just think that it is unfair to say a degree from x school is meaningless.

Has anyone here said that? Pimobino argued that a kid who claims to "be serious about academics" shouldn't be considering football factories when he has offers from places like Stanford and ND. I don't think that's a controversial statement.

 

[yankeeND]

Whiskey I love all the information you put out there about the schools and I agree that ND is a great institution, but it is the attitude towards a kid that says he is interested in academics, but chooses Florida or Bama or whatever school and suddenly they are not interested in playing school and it's just a football factory. I am not saying that there aren't more highly rated colleges out there though than the ones they choose or even equally as good as ND, Stanford, or Vanderbilt etc. I just think that it is unfair to say he is not interested in getting an education because x player chose Bama or the like when Rolle chose FSU.

The point is, I love ND. The school, the football team and what it stands for. But if Waller is deciding between Bama, NW, ND, and Ohio St., he can get a great education at any of those schools and academics can still, dare I say it, be important to him.

 

[NDdomer2]

i think the biggest issue is what does a kid really mean when he says academics are important.

Does he mean my degree is valued x amount?

Does it mean it's impossible to fail and I just want a degree?

Academics are important, as a blanket statement, doesn't really say anything to me.

 

[yankeeND]

i think the biggest issue is what does a kid really mean when he says academics are important.

Does he mean my degree is valued x amount?

Does it mean it's impossible to fail and I just want a degree?

Academics are important, as a blanket statement, doesn't really say anything to me.

I get that, and a lot of these kids probably aren't really even sure what the degree means either. I would imagine the parents are pushing that angle to them most of the time anyway, the. It get regurgitated in interviews.

Sometimes it is just the impression that I get from ND fans that their noses turn up to other schools as if they look down on them. Maybe I am way off base, but that is how I have perceived it. Also, there are cases where kids do go about the process in the way described as well so I am not oblivious to that fact either. For me, when I see a kid say that, then he doesn't choose ND, now he is not interested in getting an education? Just seems like an off approach or sour grapes.

 

[koonja]

i think the biggest issue is what does a kid really mean when he says academics are important.

Does he mean my degree is valued x amount?

Does it mean it's impossible to fail and I just want a degree?

Academics are important, as a blanket statement, doesn't really say anything to me.

95% of the time it means 'I better say this so I don't sound like a tool'.

 

[Irish#1]

i think the biggest issue is what does a kid really mean when he says academics are important.

Does he mean my degree is valued x amount?

Does it mean it's impossible to fail and I just want a degree?

Academics are important, as a blanket statement, doesn't really say anything to me.

Simple, but very good questions.

IMO, there are very few kids (offered a football scholarship) that really try to distinguish the difference in a degree from one school to another. I believe a lot of them know that a degree from ND, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Northwestern, etc. carry more prestige, but the bottom line is most don't care. Don't get me wrong, I know there are quite a few that look long term and are concerned, but there are way too many that just want to use school as a stepping stone to the NFL and ignore the reality on the chances to make it and stay long enough to build a nice retirement fund quickly.

 

[yankeeND]

Simple, but very good questions.

IMO, there are very few kids (offered a football scholarship) that really try to distinguish the difference in a degree from one school to another. I believe a lot of them know that a degree from ND, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Northwestern, etc. carry more prestige, but the bottom line is most don't care. Don't get me wrong, I know there are quite a few that look long term and are concerned, but there are way too many that just want to use school as a stepping stone to the NFL and ignore the reality on the chances to make it and stay long enough to build a nice retirement fund quickly.

I think that is a very fair assessment of it all. It isn't fully grasped quite yet. Maybe Cody Riggs is an example to look at? We were in it all the way, but he chose Florida. Got his degree, but the roster was shaping up not to his favor and he went with a very smart decision in finishing up here at ND and will get an opportunity to have the best of both worlds. He still has a degree from Florida though, and I am willing to bet that he got all he could from his time there in Gainesville.

 

[Irish8248]

Making a decision on a college whether it be for academics or football prowess isnt a singular factor..... there is a lot more that goes into the decision. While i understand the general anger, the kid isnt necessarily lying by saying academics is important and then choosing some where other than ND Stanford etc ... lots of factors go into making a decision and while ND may have the leg up on academics the other school may have the leg up in other areas .... These are student-athletes after all not just students, academics cant be seen is the overwhelming do or die factor you you would expect from Cindy Lu who has been involved with AP classes their whole life, volunteered for everything, band interests, etc...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskey I love all the information you put out there about the schools and I agree that ND is a great institution, but it is the attitude towards a kid that says he is interested in academics, but chooses Florida or Bama or whatever school and suddenly they are not interested in playing school and it's just a football factory. I am not saying that there aren't more highly rated colleges out there though than the ones they choose or even equally as good as ND, Stanford, or Vanderbilt etc. I just think that it is unfair to say he is not interested in getting an education because x player chose Bama or the like when Rolle chose FSU.

I don't see many posts expressing that sentiment around here: "Whelp, he didn't come to ND, so I guess he doesn't care about getting an education." More frequently, IE members will express annoyance with a kid who talks up the importance of education and then picks a school with a terrible GSR. Take Barnett. He said all the right things about ND, then decommitted and is only considering football factories now. That doesn't mean he's morally deficient in some way; but it does imply that he's a football-first kid, and that academics aren't nearly as important to him as he let on earlier in the process. I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing frustration over the doublespeak, as long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks on the recruit.

The point is, I love ND. The school, the football team and what it stands for. But if Waller is deciding between Bama, NW, ND, and Ohio St., he can get a great education at any of those schools and academics can still, dare I say it, be important to him.

This is the sentiment I was trying to refute in my earlier response to you. It annoys me, because opposing coaches use similar hand-waving statements to recruit against us. There are huge differences in degree value and GSR between those four schools. Individual effort is obviously a necessary ingredient to getting a good education anywhere, but taking that to its extreme and arguing that the school doesn't matter... well, that's a position that no ND fan should take (because it undermines one of our strongest recruiting tools), and the objective data simply doesn't support it.

Sometimes it is just the impression that I get from ND fans that their noses turn up to other schools as if they look down on them. Maybe I am way off base, but that is how I have perceived it.

I'm not picking up on much snobbery around here, but maybe I'm blind to it. Regardless, it's unattractive (especially due to the huge # of ND fans who aren't alums). I consistently advocate for using objective statistical data (degree value, GSR, etc.) to clarify the inevitable academic comparisons between schools. Because otherwise, it's all just tribal handwaving. Take Northwestern. Good school? Absolutely. But how does it compare to ND? On average, ND grads make more than twice as much as NW grads. So if you're going to try to lump ND into the same academic category as NW, then I'll probably object, because the data indicates that ND grads are getting much better jobs. But I'm not going to disparage any recruit who opts to go there. Is that snobbery?

Also, I don't think that it is controversial, but why shouldn't they consider football factory schools? If that is a goal of theirs to make the league, they can get a lot of education from that standpoint as well.

Piombino was expressing frustration with the hypocrisy of a recruit's stated priorities not lining up with his school choices. How is that snobbish?

And ND puts its players in the League as well as any football factory.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I'm not picking up on much snobbery around here, but maybe I'm blind to it. Regardless, it's unattractive (particularly to the huge # of ND fans who aren't alums). I consistently advocate for using objective statistical data (degree value, GSR, etc.) to clarify the inevitable academic comparisons between schools. Because otherwise, it's all just tribal handwaving. Take Northwestern. Good school? Absolutely. But how does it compare to ND? On average, ND grads make more than twice as much as NW grads. So if you're going to try to lump ND into the same academic category as NW, then I'll probably object, because the data indicates that ND grads are getting much better jobs. But I'm not going to disparage any recruit who opts to go there. Is that snobbery?

I think you make a good point. It's hard to deny that there is some real value in the ND degree.

My usual argument, on the other hand, is that (1) the tougher admission's standards plus (2) the high gradation rate show (3) the tough academic-based punishments imposed on the players, shows that (4) ND is actually committed to its players GETTING the education that the school offers.

You can get an excellent engineering degree at Auburn, for example, but there is nothing at all to suggest that your getting any degree is an important priority for Auburn's coaches. They may even get in the way of your doing so.

Long story short. You have ACCESS to an excellent education at lots of these schools. I think there are objective reasons to think you'll ACTUALLY GET a great education at ND.

 

[yankeeND]

"Sorry if this comes across as rude, but I'm an actions over words guy. He who is serious about academics simply does not entertain Bama as an option. Not when the like of Northwestern and Notre Dame are options."

Whiskey

He may not have directly said that they were "bad," but what else would you gather from that? Once again I am not denying the value of ND or NW degrees. I am simply saying that you can get a quality education at other schools. Yes earning power is great, but not everybody wants to be a business man or attorney or doctor etc. There are other fields that people go into knowing that the financial gain is not going to be significant. I never said any of these schools were created equal, all I said was, there are other options out there that provide quality educations. What you think or want or desire differs from person to person. I appreciate your stance, but I just happen to disagree with yours. Money is great, but it is not the end all.

 

[Irish#1]

On average, ND grads make more than twice as much as NW grads.

I wonder how much that has to do with ND being more of a national school with an alumni base that is known to help other ND grads?

Pratorian also has a good point on career choices.

 

[TheTurningPoint]

I dont think you can fault any kid for choosing the school that best suits him. Its their decision. Sure, Notre Dame has standards, and great academics. But some kids are football players and not students. They are making the best decision for them and their career.

I appreciate the way Notre Dame conducts things and that is why I am a fan. I also appreciate good football, and that is why I am a fan. I dont agree with some of the strategies off the field that some schools use, and flat out is ruining the game. But on the field, its a great product. You get to watch great brand of football, with players that live and die by each play. That is something you can say is missing from the Notre Dame Football program. Is kids that live and die by football. Thats the catch 22. If you want that 99% graduation rate, and kids that will enhance the student body, thats something you have to live with.

I do think that Notre Dame does an phenomenal job at transitioning kids that dont come from higher academic backgrounds so they do graduate and fit in with the students. But, at the sametime, the cliche recruiting tactic is partially true. There may be some instances where a student athlete is in a class that has 10 valedictorians in it.

At the "football factories" kids like Jameis Winston are going to be taken care of after they leave the school. You win a national title, the alumni are going get you a job if that player isnt in the NFL. That is where ND makes a killing in recruiting. Is getting the player that is probably good enough to contribute to a football factory, but also might not. So he understands the degree factor. That isnt a player that is going to be the difference in a National Title game. ND will get elite kids, but ND will never get elite kids on the reg unless something changes. Winning will help. But Notre Dame will never consistently pull in the classes Alabama has consistently pulled in over the last 7-8 years.

ND recruits high character kids and kids that do understand ND. But to say they are basing their decision on the degree, I dont agree with. They are good football players and they want to go to the league first and foremost.

 

[ThePiombino]

I dont think you can fault any kid for choosing the school that best suits him. Its their decision. Sure, Notre Dame has standards, and great academics. But some kids are football players and not students. They are making the best decision for them and their career.

I appreciate the way Notre Dame conducts things and that is why I am a fan. I also appreciate good football, and that is why I am a fan. I dont agree with some of the strategies off the field that some schools use, and flat out is ruining the game. But on the field, its a great product. You get to watch great brand of football, with players that live and die by each play. That is something you can say is missing from the Notre Dame Football program. Is kids that live and die by football. Thats the catch 22. If you want that 99% graduation rate, and kids that will enhance the student body, thats something you have to live with.

I do think that Notre Dame does an phenomenal job at transitioning kids that dont come from higher academic backgrounds so they do graduate and fit in with the students. But, at the sametime, the cliche recruiting tactic is partially true. There may be some instances where a student athlete is in a class that has 10 valedictorians in it.

At the "football factories" kids like Jameis Winston are going to be taken care of after they leave the school. You win a national title, the alumni are going get you a job if that player isnt in the NFL. That is where ND makes a killing in recruiting. Is getting the player that is probably good enough to contribute to a football factory, but also might not. So he understands the degree factor. That isnt a player that is going to be the difference in a National Title game. ND will get elite kids, but ND will never get elite kids on the reg unless something changes. Winning will help. But Notre Dame will never consistently pull in the classes Alabama has consistently pulled in over the last 7-8 years.

ND recruits high character kids and kids that do understand ND. But to say they are basing their decision on the degree, I dont agree with. They are good football players and they want to go to the league first and foremost.

1000% agreed. Just stop pretending that academics mean a damn thing to them. I don't see why they can't just omit "academics" rather than feign interest.

 

[stlnd01]

1000% agreed. Just stop pretending that academics mean a damn thing to them. I don't see why they can't just omit "academics" rather than feign interest.

What? I think if you omit academics from the equation, Notre Dame loses most of whatever edge it has over most other football powers. We're all just Auburn.
In the end, the kids who only feign interest in academics don't actually come here. They're just a nuisance of recruiting season. But I do believe a sizable chunk of our recruiting classes come to Notre Dame at least in part because of the academics, because they (or their parents or HS coaches or whoever) know the odds of making a living in the NFL and want to get the best education they can in the likelihood it doesn't work out. In other words, it suits them.
Why else would you go to Notre Dame and put up with the weather and the parietals and the less-than-spectacular social life if you didn't believe in the mission of the place, part of which is being serious about getting an education? If you omit academics, why wouldn't everyone go to Auburn?