NBA Thread

[zelezo vlk]

Horford is one of the very best defensive players in the league and is the anchor of the Celtics defense. There's no way that Kevin Love is a better player than Horford atm

 

[koonja]

Horford is one of the very best defensive players in the league and is the anchor of the Celtics defense. There's no way that Kevin Love is a better player than Horford atm

They hit the open market, Horfard gets picked 2nd by every team. Love is better, but Horford is playing better.

 

[stlnd01]

The Celtics are not stars, guys.

Lebron has plenty of help. What he doesn't have is leadership, grit, and a good coach. But this is the NBA, coaching is not everything, it's on the players too, and it's definitely on him that players seem to come play with him and drop off of the map.

This is exactly my point. The Celtics are not stars. They won’t beat Golden State (and on paper they probably shouldn’t have beaten Philly). But two games in they’ve played with a lot more leadership and grit than any Cavalier not named LeBron (for one half last night anyway). And they have a pretty damn good coach. So far that has meant a lot more than whatever George Hill did before he came to Cleveland.
There’s still basketball to be played. Celts need to keep it up. But this doesn’t look like a team that’s going to let LeBron James alone win four of the next five games.

 

[Ndaccountant]

He has plenty of help, he's just not getting anything out of it. Take that how you will.

George Hill averaged 17 Ppg game before joining Lebron. No Celtic averages that, Jaylen Brown is closest with 14.5.

Kevin Love is better than Al Horford, and is in his prime. He was a 25/12 guy before joining Lebron. He's still statistically better, but again, nothing from him. Even this year he was a much better player than Horford, averaging 18 and 10 to Horford's 12 and 8.

Kyle Korver is a top 10 3 point shooter of all time.

Statistically, Lebron is playing with the next 2 best scores in the series ON HIS TEAM (Love, Hill). The Celtics are not stars, guys.

Lebron has plenty of help. What he doesn't have is leadership, grit, and a good coach. But this is the NBA, coaching is not everything, it's on the players too, and it's definitely on him that players seem to come play with him and drop off of the map.

If you love stats, players do not get better playing with Lebron. Some 3 point shooters become relevant, but it's a freaking myth that he makes everyone better. He ignores the post like crazy, which is why Love and Bosh had massive drops in value when joining him.

Lebron makes shooting guards better, not "everyone around him".

George hill averaged 16.9 in the one season he played in Utah, which was 25% increase versus what he produced in Ind for the 5 seasons he was there (so, an outlier). He averaged nearly 21 shots per 100 possessions while in Utah, which was also 25% more than his career average and 50% more than what is being asked of him in Cleveland. If you simply compare PPG, sure, it looks strange compared to his career high. But if you dig deeper, you will get a much different answer.

Comparing Love and AH is complete apples and oranges. Love is tasked to shoot and score, AH is tasked to be an all around player. Case in point....Love's offensive usage is 25% throughout his career, AH is 19%. When Love is on the floor and his teammate scores, 12% of the time he gets the assist. AH's % is double that for the C's. Love's career defensive +/- is -0.1, AH's is 2.3. True shooting % for Love and AH is the exact same for their career. Sure, there is a PPG difference, but that is a rather myopic view. Kind of like saying Aaron Judge is way better than Mike Trout because he hits more home runs.

If you look statistically at the offensive and defensive four factors, Cleveland had the 3rd best effective FG% in the league this year, 6th in the league in FT/FGA, but was 27th in ORB%. Defensively, they were 28th in defensive effective FG%, 26th in turnover % and 17th in DRB%. Boston was middle of the pack in all offensive rankings, but was second in defensive effective FG% at 49.5%.

So what has happened in the series? Game 1 was obviously a terrible shooting night for Cleveland and their effective FG% was below 40%, a full 15% behind their season average. Last night was different though, as they got damn near 53%. The difference was that the Cavs turned it over 14.6% of the time compared to 4.7% for Boston and Boston got 23% ORB% compared to 19% for Cleveland (Jeff Green had a really tough night, turned it over 46% of the time). What's the big deal? Boston had 12 more FG attempts with the extra possessions and 3 more FT attempts. That is a full 15% more FG attempts than what Cleveland had. That is supremely tough to overcome when you are allowing an effective FG% close to 50%.

One last thing.....LeBron had a rough night turning it over...15.2%. But he assisted on 86.4% of his teammates baskets while he was on the floor. That is astounding. Next highest % last night was Marcus Smart, at 39.5%. No other player on the floor last night topped 16%.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

George hill averaged 16.9 in the one season he played in Utah, which was 25% increase versus what he produced in Ind for the 5 seasons he was there (so, an outlier). He averaged nearly 21 shots per 100 possessions while in Utah, which was also 25% more than his career average and 50% more than what is being asked of him in Cleveland. If you simply compare PPG, sure, it looks strange compared to his career high. But if you dig deeper, you will get a much different answer.

Comparing Love and AH is complete apples and oranges. Love is tasked to shoot and score, AH is tasked to be an all around player. Case in point....Love's offensive usage is 25% throughout his career, AH is 19%. When Love is on the floor and his teammate scores, 12% of the time he gets the assist. AH's % is double that for the C's. Love's career defensive +/- is -0.1, AH's is 2.3. True shooting % for Love and AH is the exact same for their career. Sure, there is a PPG difference, but that is a rather myopic view. Kind of like saying Aaron Judge is way better than Mike Trout because he hits more home runs.

If you look statistically at the offensive and defensive four factors, Cleveland had the 3rd best effective FG% in the league this year, 6th in the league in FT/FGA, but was 27th in ORB%. Defensively, they were 28th in defensive effective FG%, 26th in turnover % and 17th in DRB%. Boston was middle of the pack in all offensive rankings, but was second in defensive effective FG% at 49.5%.

So what has happened in the series? Game 1 was obviously a terrible shooting night for Cleveland and their effective FG% was below 40%, a full 15% behind their season average. Last night was different though, as they got damn near 53%. The difference was that the Cavs turned it over 14.6% of the time compared to 4.7% for Boston and Boston got 23% ORB% compared to 19% for Cleveland (Jeff Green had a really tough night, turned it over 46% of the time). What's the big deal? Boston had 12 more FG attempts with the extra possessions and 3 more FT attempts. That is a full 15% more FG attempts than what Cleveland had. That is supremely tough to overcome when you are allowing an effective FG% close to 50%.

One last thing.....LeBron had a rough night turning it over...15.2%. But he assisted on 86.4% of his teammates baskets while he was on the floor. That is astounding. Next highest % last night was Marcus Smart, at 39.5%. No other player on the floor last night topped 16%.

Yeah, but as Koon pointed out, people's numbers go down when they play with 'Bron.

 

[greyhammer90]

George hill averaged 16.9 in the one season he played in Utah, which was 25% increase versus what he produced in Ind for the 5 seasons he was there (so, an outlier). He averaged nearly 21 shots per 100 possessions while in Utah, which was also 25% more than his career average and 50% more than what is being asked of him in Cleveland. If you simply compare PPG, sure, it looks strange compared to his career high. But if you dig deeper, you will get a much different answer.

Comparing Love and AH is complete apples and oranges. Love is tasked to shoot and score, AH is tasked to be an all around player. Case in point....Love's offensive usage is 25% throughout his career, AH is 19%. When Love is on the floor and his teammate scores, 12% of the time he gets the assist. AH's % is double that for the C's. Love's career defensive +/- is -0.1, AH's is 2.3. True shooting % for Love and AH is the exact same for their career. Sure, there is a PPG difference, but that is a rather myopic view. Kind of like saying Aaron Judge is way better than Mike Trout because he hits more home runs.

If you look statistically at the offensive and defensive four factors, Cleveland had the 3rd best effective FG% in the league this year, 6th in the league in FT/FGA, but was 27th in ORB%. Defensively, they were 28th in defensive effective FG%, 26th in turnover % and 17th in DRB%. Boston was middle of the pack in all offensive rankings, but was second in defensive effective FG% at 49.5%.

So what has happened in the series? Game 1 was obviously a terrible shooting night for Cleveland and their effective FG% was below 40%, a full 15% behind their season average. Last night was different though, as they got damn near 53%. The difference was that the Cavs turned it over 14.6% of the time compared to 4.7% for Boston and Boston got 23% ORB% compared to 19% for Cleveland (Jeff Green had a really tough night, turned it over 46% of the time). What's the big deal? Boston had 12 more FG attempts with the extra possessions and 3 more FT attempts. That is a full 15% more FG attempts than what Cleveland had. That is supremely tough to overcome when you are allowing an effective FG% close to 50%.

One last thing.....LeBron had a rough night turning it over...15.2%. But he assisted on 86.4% of his teammates baskets while he was on the floor. That is astounding. Next highest % last night was Marcus Smart, at 39.5%. No other player on the floor last night topped 16%.

wew lad

 

[Irish#1]

You would have collected! Celtics took a very different approach than I thought they would. Notice they never double team Lebron (Kobe was double teamed his whole life, there's my plug).

They seem very happy to let him score, but stop the shooters. He'll have a big series if they stay this way, and they should, because it's working.

The difference in this series isn't James, Love, Horford, etc.. The difference is the guy coaching the Celtics.

George Hill is a pretty good player in the right environment. Playing with James is not the right environment to maximize his contributions.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

The difference in this series isn't James, Love, Horford, etc.. The difference is the guy coaching the Celtics.

George Hill is a pretty good player in the right environment. Playing with James is not the right environment to maximize his contributions.

I partially agree with this. I think he puts all of his players in maximum position for success but I believe it takes a roster of players who are willing to accept the roles he defines for them. It appears they have the right cast because they are all giving maximum effort.

The Celtics have made all the right moves over the past 4-5 years. They are building a longterm contender. Next year, they'll likely receive another lottery selection in the top 8 and I expect them to continue augmenting this roster.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

NBA Thread

Comparing raw stats between players of different teams is an exercise in futility because it fails to acknowledge important things like pace of play, but heres something fascinating:

BOSTON HAS A FASTER PACE OF PLAY THAN CLEVELAND IN THIS YEARS PLAYOFFS

Thats insane seeing Cleveland was 12th during the regular season (relatively fast), and Boston was 24th (snails fucking slow)

 

[IrishSteelhead]

He's definitely underfouled because there are a lot of drives where there is clear contact and no foul call because he goes right through defenders. Shaq had a similar issue, though he had it way worse. It definitely evens out though because refs never call fouls on Lebron either. Like, no NBA refs, I don't believe Lebron can play 38 minutes while slashing the paint and bodying people on defense and get his 2nd personal deep in the 4th. I don't even need to watch the game to know that's bullshit.

I get that, its true, BUT you have to admit how ridiculously irresponsible it is to say on national TV the very player who gets the most preferential treatment in the league doesnt get any calls.

Is he underfouled? Yes
Does he never get any calls? HELL NO

 

[Ndaccountant]

Comparing raw stats between players of different teams is an exercise in futility because it fails to acknowledge important things like pace of play, but heres something fascinating:

BOSTON HAS A FASTER PACE OF PLAY THAN CLEVELAND IN THIS YEARS PLAYOFFS

Thats insane seeing Cleveland was 12th during the regular season (relatively fast), and Boston was 24th (snails fucking slow)

Truth. That is why things like XXX per 100 possessions is so important and the basis of the stats I have shared the last few days.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

NBA Thread

Truth. That is why things like XXX per 100 possessions is so important and the basis of the stats I have shared the last few days.

This is also why Lebron and the Cavs have had awful stretches where they struggle IMO.

Lebron is deliberately changing the pace in an attempt to give teammates opportunities when he feels the need to get them involved, and the whole machine breaks down because of the shift.

Tyron Lue has to see this, because its easier to notice off the court, but is too timid to question Lebron (also my opinion).

You arent going to outsmart Brad Stevens, so play YOUR game and hope for the best.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

The Warriors look completely out of sync. I think they need to let Curry come off the bench until he finds his shot again. He can still play big minutes but Durant needs to be taking more shots because he's unstoppable.

The Rockets look smooth and everyone is hitting shots tonight.

The foul calls, again, are awful.

 

[Irish#1]

I partially agree with this. I think he puts all of his players in maximum position for success but I believe it takes a roster of players who are willing to accept the roles he defines for them. It appears they have the right cast because they are all giving maximum effort.

The Celtics have made all the right moves over the past 4-5 years. They are building a longterm contender. Next year, they'll likely receive another lottery selection in the top 8 and I expect them to continue augmenting this roster.

Who do you think gets them to accept their roles? Listening to Stevens over the years, I think he does two things extremely well. He's an above average communicator. He uses statistics as the core for his coaching and creating game plans which goes back to what you said about putting players in the right position.

WCF tied 1-1. No real revelation there.

 

[Ndaccountant]

The Warriors look completely out of sync. I think they need to let Curry come off the bench until he finds his shot again. He can still play big minutes but Durant needs to be taking more shots because he's unstoppable.

The Rockets look smooth and everyone is hitting shots tonight.

The foul calls, again, are awful.

Curry is being targeted like mad on D. They are making his work and you have to wonder about the knee.

Will be interesting to see the production of Gordon and Tucker in Games 3/4. They were lights out last night, but Game 1 Tucker was non-existent and Gordon was turning it over too much. Doubt those two shoot it that well again this series, but then again, Harden probably won't go 3-15 from 3 again either.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Curry is being targeted like mad on D. They are making his work and you have to wonder about the knee.

Will be interesting to see the production of Gordon and Tucker in Games 3/4. They were lights out last night, but Game 1 Tucker was non-existent and Gordon was turning it over too much. Doubt those two shoot it that well again this series, but then again, Harden probably won't go 3-15 from 3 again either.

That's why I think Curry needs to come off the bench. Give him some reduced minutes and force the Rockets into a different game plan. What the Warriors did last night will not work. They can't just hope for the best, although I don't think the Rockets will match that shooting percentage nor do I believe the Warriors will commit that many turnovers again. They looked lackadaisical.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Pacers fan here.

I was surprised to see that the Pacers declined Lance Stephenson's option, making him a free agent.

 

[NDdomer2]

pacers get no national televised games for 18/19 season. ouch.

 

[Irish#1]

pacers get no national televised games for 18/19 season. ouch.

That's fine. Fly under the radar again.

 

[Irish YJ]

pacers get no national televised games for 18/19 season. ouch.

guess i will just have to wait to watch them win the East come playoff time.

For a playoff team that played Cleveland the best, and has some great young talent, that's pretty lame. Although it doesn't surprise me. I think they only had one or two last year.

At least I get to see them when they play the Hawks....

 

[ab2cmiller]

Lebron needs to bend down a little bit more so Lance can blow

 

[Irish#1]

It's preseason LeBron, preseason.

 

[ACamp1900]

I've always admired Kings and Dodger fans for being super loyal and passionate regardless of team success....

It amazes me how the same collective group of people, in the only major city in the entire country where the NBA team can claim top billing had their collective fan base just freaking vanish off the face of the earth for a couple years there. Brace yourselves tho,... Laker swag is returning en masse quickly out here.

 

[ab2cmiller]

With the Sixers depleted bench, Demetrius got his first minutes outside of the 4th Qtr since joining the Sixers under a 2-way contract.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Get up Meetch! RT <a href="https://twitter.com/nbagleague?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@nbagleague</a>: <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/2WayPlayer?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#2WayPlayer</a> Demetrius Jackson (<a href="https://twitter.com/D_Jay11?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@D_Jay11</a>) showed off his &#55357;&#56368; for the <a href="https://twitter.com/sixers?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@sixers</a> on this alley-oop JAM &#55357;&#56960;&#55357;&#56960;&#55357;&#56960;<a href="https://twitter.com/NDmbb?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NDmbb</a> ↗️ <a href="https://twitter.com/blue_coats?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@blue_coats</a> ↔️ <a href="https://twitter.com/sixers?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@sixers</a> <a href="https://t.co/ISricKdReH">pic.twitter.com/ISricKdReH</a></p>— Jerian Grant (@JerianGrant) <a href="https://twitter.com/JerianGrant/status/1080719442487767041?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 3, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Irish#1]

I've always admired Kings and Dodger fans for being super loyal and passionate regardless of team success....

It amazes me how the same collective group of people, in the only major city in the entire country where the NBA team can claim top billing had their collective fan base just freaking vanish off the face of the earth for a couple years there. Brace yourselves tho,... Laker swag is returning en masse quickly out here.

LA fans are the biggest bunch of fair weather band wagon fans around.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Quote from LaVar Ball - Luke Walton turned him (Lonzo) into a loser.


LaVar Ball rips Anthony Davis, says Luke Walton turned Lonzo 'into a loser'


Sorry LaVar you and your son have been losers for quite some time.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Tobias Harris to Philly...that starting lineup is filthyyyyyy.

They have a legit shot at representing the east, no doubt about it.

 

[Irish#1]

James certainly isn't doing anything to win the hearts of Laker fans.

https://www.si.com/nba/2019/03/07/lebron-james-minutes-restriction-lakers-playoffs

 

[koonja]

James certainly isn't doing anything to win the hearts of Laker fans.

https://www.si.com/nba/2019/03/07/lebron-james-minutes-restriction-lakers-playoffs

Just one of many differences between him and Kobe, Kobe would ask for more minutes if the team was fighting for a playoff spot, not throw in the towel and let the team struggle through the rest to its inevitable end. Lakers fans know this.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

James certainly isn't doing anything to win the hearts of Laker fans.

https://www.si.com/nba/2019/03/07/lebron-james-minutes-restriction-lakers-playoffs

He is the actual worst. A total Diva. He has passed Sidney Crosby as my least favorite active super-star for sure.

Meanwhile my Pistons actually have a pulse and are playing the most entertaining basketball I've seen since the Wallace x2, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, and Tayshaun Prince run in '04 - '08.

I'm a realist though who understands that they aren't the Warriors and the current shooting clip they've produced in the past month is sure to normalize at some point. I thought when they traded Reggie Bullock to LAL they were packing it in but they've really turned a corner.