National Signing Day 2016

[Irish Insanity]

This argument will be moot when we sign Kelly and DRob!

No at that point we will move from one side of the stat sheet to the other. I belive that will give us 2 top 10s in the last 4 years.

 

[NDPhilly]

The biggest thing that this class is missing, if you are going by recruiting rankings is highly rated DBs, especially safeties. We have a lot of raw guys with high ceilings that I think can be players, but dont have any top 100 commits.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

The biggest thing that this class is missing, if you are going by recruiting rankings is highly rated DBs, especially safeties. We have a lot of raw guys with high ceilings that I think can be players, but dont have any top 100 commits.

I agree with this. But I think Studstill is a top 150/200 player though.

 

[ND-North]

I like this class. I would much rather have a 15 rated class that stays together for four years than a top 10 class that has a lot of attrition as some of our classes of late.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Well two of the 4 teams in the College football playoff, very rarely if ever get in the top 10 in recruiting let alone the top 5. Again, Baylor is probably in the CFP if Russell doesn't get injured and they have never even come close. Oregon did it for 5ish years without it. Stanford doesn't even come close most years and those two teams have dominated the Pac12 for the last 7+ years.

The final top 10 is as followed:

Bama (Yes)
Clemson (Yes)
Stanford (No)
OSU (Yes)
Oklahoma (No)
MSU (No)
TCU (not even remotely close)
Houston (not even remotely close)
Iowa (not even remotely close)
Ole Miss (yes)

So of the final 10 college rankings, 4 actually recruit as this "mythical" level, 3 aren't even remotely close, and 3 more don't as well.

Hmmm, those numbers say to me that it doesn't Fing matter what 247's team rankings suggest.

Yes, there is a correlation between recruiting and winning. Its the lifeblood of all good programs but that has nothing to do with 247 or rivals team rankings. If you believe so, then you believe that they have accurately scouted and rated every single HS football player, which I know you guys don't believe.

Let's put it this way.....Do you think ND could win a Natty with recruiting classes that consistently placed in the 10-15 range? 5-10 range? 1-5 range?

To me, the difference between a top 5 class and a top 15 class is usually one or two "studs". Now, these guys don't always pan out, but if you consistently get a few with each cycle, you get more "hits" even though you are batting .300 like everyone else. That is why teams like OSU and Bama are always a threat for a Natty. Sure, this class as it stands now could help produce a Natty, but I would feel much better about it with Drob and/or Kelly along with a top 5 class next year.

 

[IrishLion]

I would be curious to see where the biggest bump in recruiting occurs after a 10-win season, as well. Is it during the current recruiting class? Or is it the next class, where you have more time to tell high school juniors, "look what we're doing right now," and then can use that to bring them in the next year.

Everyone's saying that the '17 class could be a top-5 class, but I'll wait to see how it unfolds before I start mailing it in about ND signing top-rated classes.

 

[Irishman77]

The biggest thing that this class is missing, if you are going by recruiting rankings is highly rated DBs, especially safeties. We have a lot of raw guys with high ceilings that I think can be players, but dont have any top 100 commits.

If I had to pick a position where we lack flash, it would be LB. We got some good talent, but Mccullah would have been perfect.

I really wonder what tranquil could do at Sam if moved in 17 when JO graduates

 

[Old Man Mike]

I thought that Coach addressed all his offensive needs except one more 4* OLineman [we need at least four next time due to Tillery's shift to defense.] Some might object about the WR group, but for my eye Kelly is at his best developing WRs. To win a championship, Coach has to have [offensively] excellent OLinemen, a great quarterback, and a good scheme --- he has all that, and he recruited all that [giving Book a pass since we're overloaded with phenomenal young talent there --- also loaded at RB. It's the other side of the ball....

Defensively, they apparently decided early not to hustle DTs this time. With Hayes, Cage, and Tillery young enough, maybe that's OK, but I think that you never have enough DTs. DEs seem to be OK this class, and the staff loaded up on the DBackfield, hopefully solving both itself and kick coverage.

I'm still waiting for a middle linebacker. The guys they got look really good to me, but I still don't see the Mike. If I insist on being negative [which I don't], I'd fret about that.

{also, our "ratings" are diminished a bit by having a long-snapper this year.} ... an obvious absurd element in ranking teams.

 

[Luckylucci]

Except that stats weren't about being in top ten or making CFP. It was about championship winners.

And I don't think this is souch about what site rated who where. Chances are if ur consistently having a class ranked that high by multiple services then you are bringing in talent. Period. Rankings don't win it all but skilled football players do. And the champions bring them in.

Plain and simple.

So your point is talent wins championships? Isn't that obvious, why would even discuss that.

What we are discussing is the place that team rankings have in how we judge our expectations for the future. And team recruiting rankings are a terrible measure of future success. Otherwise all those teams I previously mentioned would have no chance. Again ,70% of last sesasons top 10, hasn't recently been in the top 10 for the team recruiting rankings. What does that tell you?

It tells me that there is A LOT of talent out there that no one can quantify accurately at this point. Therefore, as long we are indentifying the right guys for our program, school, and scheme we have just as good of a chance as anyone around.

Fools game to think those rankings predict anything of significance. Baylor ahead of FSU in final football rankings. Never once been ahead of them in recruiting. Same goes for NW and Florida. NW has never if sniffed the top 10 yet they end the season ahead of Florida. Why is that? I mean, ESPN told us that if we recruit top 10 classes then we are better than those other teams, right? Lol.

 

[palinurus]

Hmmm. Ass.

Even as he thrives in a recruiting culture that continues to move toward deregulation, Ohio State coach Urban Meyer favors reform and a more conservative approach to the process that has again landed him an elite signing class.

"Regulation is good for Ohio State, because we’re not going to do crazy things," Meyer told ESPN.com. "We’re not going to go paint buses, and we’re just not going to do that stuff."

Urban Meyer says regulation in recruiting helps Ohio State - Big Ten Blog- ESPN

 

[Luckylucci]

Let's put it this way.....Do you think ND could win a Natty with recruiting classes that consistently placed in the 10-15 range? 5-10 range? 1-5 range?
To me, the difference between a top 5 class and a top 15 class is usually one or two "studs". Now, these guys don't always pan out, but if you consistently get a few with each cycle, you get more "hits" even though you are batting .300 like everyone else. That is why teams like OSU and Bama are always a threat for a Natty. Sure, this class as it stands now could help produce a Natty, but I would feel much better about it with Drob and/or Kelly along with a top 5 class next year.

All of the above. As long as it is the right guys.

ND's problem is not talent. That's why we quite a few players that are expecting to be drafted this year. Some are the best at their respective positions or close to. That's why we have young guys in the league that are playing really well, and as seen with this years draft class, that is only getting stronger.

ND has its issues but getting talent in this program is not one of them.

 

[Dizzyphil]

So signing DRob and Kelly would take us from 1 five, 12 four star to 3 five, 12 four star which would be tied for second most five stars with Clemson and fifth most four stars behind FSU, OSU, Michigan and LSU. I think it is fair to say those guys would significantly increase our chances of making the playoffs over the next 3-4 years but it is not like we are SOL without them. On the edge of a top ten class is keeping you in the mix.

True. But, the significance in college football is the QB at the realm. Those additions increase the odds-on. The Irish have three really good QBs right now and it seems Kelly is recruiting good depth again. I agree with you that a couple extra definitely increase the 'odds-on' for playoffs.

I agree that it's a good class, and we are not so far off going back a couple years. 10 of the 13 teams did not have a top 10 class every one of the four years leading up to according to the services available (ESPN, as you say, does not go back that far).



The two candidates are Texas in 2005-6 and Auburn in 2010-11. That said, both 247 and Rivals gave Texas the #1 class in 2002, so I wouldn't call them an outlier, but their classes in 03, 04, and 05 were variously ranked between 8 and 20. They are an exception to the top-10-in-the-year-immediately-before-you-win-a-title rule.
As for Auburn, they were ranked in the top 10 both in 2007 and 2010 by all three of the services I looked at, but the classes in 2008 and 2009 were ranked between 19-25 by all three, too.

Another nugget: every team to win a title since 2003 has had a class ranked in the top 4 by either ESPN, 247, or Rivals (note that not all go back that far) in at least one of the four years leading up to their title.

Yes; you have valid points. But, it also boils down to 'coaching up' high school football players to the next level. Star recruits can sometimes only be as good as the school, system, coach, and surrounding players they join.

Good point.

I thought that Coach addressed all his offensive needs except one more 4* OLineman [we need at least four next time due to Tillery's shift to defense.] Some might object about the WR group, but for my eye Kelly is at his best developing WRs. To win a championship, Coach has to have [offensively] excellent OLinemen, a great quarterback, and a good scheme --- he has all that, and he recruited all that [giving Book a pass since we're overloaded with phenomenal young talent there --- also loaded at RB. It's the other side of the ball....

Defensively, they apparently decided early not to hustle DTs this time. With Hayes, Cage, and Tillery young enough, maybe that's OK, but I think that you never have enough DTs. DEs seem to be OK this class, and the staff loaded up on the DBackfield, hopefully solving both itself and kick coverage.

I'm still waiting for a middle linebacker. The guys they got look really good to me, but I still don't see the Mike. If I insist on being negative [which I don't], I'd fret about that.

{also, our "ratings" are diminished a bit by having a long-snapper this year.} ... an obvious absurd element in ranking teams.

Again - agreed. But I also believe that Kelly or BVG may be recruiting an outside LB that plays well enough to be the 'Mike' in BVG's system. Will not know until the right guy is tested or tried at the position. Just as a 'butter-fingered' HS, 2-star WR could become a 4 or 5-star DB.

Only my thoughts guys. There are so many factors. It will come down to team-play regardless of the 'Starred' player. As I have said before, Marcus Mariota had two teams offer him - Oregon and Memphis...... Just have to see how it plays out.

 

[Guest]

I like the class overall. First they loaded upon DBs and did a solid job of recruiting pass rushers, which were two huge areas of need. The LBs are solid but remember we had a great LB crop last year. So overall I expect the defensive depth to improve due to this class and some of the previous warts to begin to fade away.

While this was not a spectacular class, I think BKelly and Co. have finally figured out how to recruit kids to ND that will stick and will be productive. That is the biggest measure of success - not the overall rating of the class, but how many will stick with the program and become solid contributors.

Compare this to past classes where we had transfers and character issues and how those issues destroyed the depth on this team. This type of class will rebuild the depth chart and help ND perform more consistently across the board.

The bigger issue I have right now is defensive scheme and whether the defense will make a positive step forward this year under BVG. This is a much bigger issue to me now than our current recruiting class.

 

[irishff1014]

Well two of the 4 teams in the College football playoff, very rarely if ever get in the top 10 in recruiting let alone the top 5. Again, Baylor is probably in the CFP if Russell doesn't get injured and they have never even come close. Oregon did it for 5ish years without it. Stanford doesn't even come close most years and those two teams have dominated the Pac12 for the last 7+ years.

The final top 10 is as followed:

Bama (Yes)
Clemson (Yes)
Stanford (No)
OSU (Yes)
Oklahoma (No)
MSU (No)
TCU (not even remotely close)
Houston (not even remotely close)
Iowa (not even remotely close)
Ole Miss (yes)

So of the final 10 college rankings, 4 actually recruit as this "mythical" level, 3 aren't even remotely close, and 3 more don't as well.

Hmmm, those numbers say to me that it doesn't Fing matter what 247's team rankings suggest.

Yes, there is a correlation between recruiting and winning. Its the lifeblood of all good programs but that has nothing to do with 247 or rivals team rankings. If you believe so, then you believe that they have accurately scouted and rated every single HS football player, which I know you guys don't believe.

I think this is an interesting post. We have good talent on the roster when does it become an issue of coaching?

I will say this but i don't see us being a consistent playoff team with BVG as the defensive coordinator. He does limited recruiting and i think his coaching style has had enough attention.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

National Signing Day 2016

Kind of a disappointing end to the class. But at least there were no surprise decommitments.

Onto 2017


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[drake29]

Kind of a disappointing end to the class. But at least there was no surprise decommitments.

Onto 2017


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Yep...

 

[dad4aa]

Kind of a disappointing end to the class. But at least there was no surprise decommitments.

Onto 2017


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Losing hope that we miss out on Drob as well. Lets hope we put it all together next year and make the playoffs and have a top 5 2017 class

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I thought that Coach addressed all his offensive needs except one more 4* OLineman [we need at least four next time due to Tillery's shift to defense.] Some might object about the WR group, but for my eye Kelly is at his best developing WRs. To win a championship, Coach has to have [offensively] excellent OLinemen, a great quarterback, and a good scheme --- he has all that, and he recruited all that [giving Book a pass since we're overloaded with phenomenal young talent there --- also loaded at RB. It's the other side of the ball....

Defensively, they apparently decided early not to hustle DTs this time. With Hayes, Cage, and Tillery young enough, maybe that's OK, but I think that you never have enough DTs. DEs seem to be OK this class, and the staff loaded up on the DBackfield, hopefully solving both itself and kick coverage.

I'm still waiting for a middle linebacker. The guys they got look really good to me, but I still don't see the Mike. If I insist on being negative [which I don't], I'd fret about that.

{also, our "ratings" are diminished a bit by having a long-snapper this year.} ... an obvious absurd element in ranking teams.

See the last commit from the class :

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/201...-lb-jonathan-jones-notre-dame-signed-nli.html

People say he is shorter than the 6'2" he is listed at. Who cares? He has blazing speed, really good instincts, and real (vocal) leadership qualities. He has a frame that can gain some weight, I bet, without sacrificing speed.

 

[NDdomer2]

So your point is talent wins championships? Isn't that obvious, why would even discuss that.

What we are discussing is the place that team rankings have in how we judge our expectations for the future. And team recruiting rankings are a terrible measure of future success. Otherwise all those teams I previously mentioned would have no chance. Again ,70% of last sesasons top 10, hasn't recently been in the top 10 for the team recruiting rankings. What does that tell you?

It tells me that there is A LOT of talent out there that no one can quantify accurately at this point. Therefore, as long we are indentifying the right guys for our program, school, and scheme we have just as good of a chance as anyone around.

Fools game to think those rankings predict anything of significance. Baylor ahead of FSU in final football rankings. Never once been ahead of them in recruiting. Same goes for NW and Florida. NW has never if sniffed the top 10 yet they end the season ahead of Florida. Why is that? I mean, ESPN told us that if we recruit top 10 classes then we are better than those other teams, right? Lol.

I'm more saying that it clearly matters to bring in classes rated that high to win a championship. And ur top top 10 example backs it up.

You can have a great season without top rated classes but you can't be the best overall without them.

But to think the recruiting industry isn't somewhat capable of evaluating who is bringing the best classes in is laughable.

They aren't perfect and of course it's impossible to accurately evaluate all these HS fb players and how they will respond to the right coaching, system, further physical maturation at the next level.

But let's try something for practice.

247 class rankings
2012: 18th
2013: 5th
2014: 11th
2015: 13th

Rolling 4 year average: 11.75

Final rankings:

AP: 11
Coaches: 12

Oddly similar, lol

 

[kmoose]

The biggest thing that this class is missing, if you are going by recruiting rankings is highly rated DBs, especially safeties. We have a lot of raw guys with high ceilings that I think can be players, but dont have any top 100 commits.

According to Rivals, we had 5 4* DBs:

Vaughn
Pride
Morgan
Love
Elliot

So we may not have an elitely-rated GUY, but they could very well end up playing like an elite unit due to there not being a weak link for offenses to exploit.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I like the class overall. First they loaded upon DBs and did a solid job of recruiting pass rushers, which were two huge areas of need. The LBs are solid but remember we had a great LB crop last year. So overall I expect the defensive depth to improve due to this class and some of the previous warts to begin to fade away.

While this was not a spectacular class, I think BKelly and Co. have finally figured out how to recruit kids to ND that will stick and will be productive. That is the biggest measure of success - not the overall rating of the class, but how many will stick with the program and become solid contributors.

Compare this to past classes where we had transfers and character issues and how those issues destroyed the depth on this team. This type of class will rebuild the depth chart and help ND perform more consistently across the board.

The bigger issue I have right now is defensive scheme and whether the defense will make a positive step forward this year under BVG. This is a much bigger issue to me now than our current recruiting class.

This is excellence in posting! Reps sir!

I thought the last two or three classes had grossly underrated players; they did! This class has ten times that possible distinction.

Your point about the linebacker class is in itself excellent. We have guys like Onwualu, Morgan, Martini (so underappreciated it is sickening), with last year's class of the two B's and the big C.

Daelin Hayes is a top twenty linebacker, Johnathan Jones, is flat out fast, assignment correct, and can stick! He was a flat out steal. And remember Morgan counts as a hybrid linebacker-safety. He could easily come on dime packages, and take pressure of linemen having to cover slot backs, and has enough thump to loosen up a tight end!

That would leave someone like Morgan to be free to kill quarterbacks. Like put him in, point to the number, and say go kill. He can hit that hard. That's why he was a freshman All-American.

And I looked at some early Junior film, versus some Senior film. With this view, including the 20/20 hindsight, I don't think that Joe Schmidt was ever the same after Navy. Not even close to the same speed which was marginal before the broken ankle.

So hopefully with the group they got and the skills they possess, we have a dominant middle linebacker, and can free up a few of these guys, especially the baby bro's to become exceptional edge rushers. If that happens the whole defense will play better!

 

[Sherm Sticky]

For some reason I'm depressed today, when I should be pleased...


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[calvegas04]

A pretty cool commitment video
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_eCcuSTsLa0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[NDgradstudent]

Well two of the 4 teams in the College football playoff, very rarely if ever get in the top 10 in recruiting let alone the top 5. Again, Baylor is probably in the CFP if Russell doesn't get injured and they have never even come close. Oregon did it for 5ish years without it. Stanford doesn't even come close most years and those two teams have dominated the Pac12 for the last 7+ years.

The final top 10 is as followed:

Bama (Yes)
Clemson (Yes)
Stanford (No)
OSU (Yes)
Oklahoma (No)
MSU (No)
TCU (not even remotely close)
Houston (not even remotely close)
Iowa (not even remotely close)
Ole Miss (yes)

So of the final 10 college rankings, 4 actually recruit as this "mythical" level, 3 aren't even remotely close, and 3 more don't as well.

Hmmm, those numbers say to me that it doesn't Fing matter what 247's team rankings suggest.

Yes, there is a correlation between recruiting and winning. Its the lifeblood of all good programs but that has nothing to do with 247 or rivals team rankings. If you believe so, then you believe that they have accurately scouted and rated every single HS football player, which I know you guys don't believe.

We're talking about teams that win titles, not teams that finish in the top 10.

 

[GrangerIrish24]

Even though we struck out on the big names, we still ended up with a really good class. Filled needs, added depth, and brought in some great lineman on both sides of the ball. If there is anything this cycle showed me is that we are really investing into recruiting. Elston has done an excellent job which should pay off for 2017.

 

[IrishLax]

We're talking about teams that win titles, not teams that finish in the top 10.

Right, but that entire argument is bullsh*t from the start. Nobody is really winning titles but Bama over the past 7 years. FSU, Ohio State, Auburn are all gigantic flukes where the laws of probability beat Alabama under ideal circumstances. The title either ends up in Tuscaloosa, or someone goes through Alabama to get it.

FSU - had two #1 style classes before their title, a #1 QB, and got gifted not having to play Bama because of a truly insane/miracle loss by the Tide on that 109 yard missed FG return by Auburn.

Ohio State - completely changed their offense heading into their final games of the season, caught Bama being cocky and unprepared. Pretty much the only time that has ever happened in college football. Also, Blake Sims threw 3 INTs in the game... two of them soul crushing big plays worth a combined 14 points.

Auburn - Alabama was running away with the game... absolutely blowing the doors off Auburn... and then Mark Ingram fumbled. Alabama would've been up 31 nothing and not looked back if he doesn't fumble. Cam Newton then leads a massive comeback from down 24 points to win by 1. Also, that was the worst Bama team of that era.

So two of the three non-Bama titles are thanks to Iron Bowl flukes. The other Alabama actually got beat by a perfect storm. It would make sense to look at teams "winning" titles if it was more than 4 total teams. But because it isn't, we should consider what it takes to COMPETE for a title and make the playoffs.

Of the 8 playoff teams over the past two seasons, Oregon, Oklahoma, and MSU have recruited "worse" than ND... Bama, FSU, and Ohio State are better... and Clemson has been right around what ND does, but a bit better. So we're recruiting at a level that should put us right in the mix of what it takes to be a playoff team. From that point forward, you have to get lucky.

 

[phgreek]

Was a solid recruiting effort. As I watched the film on these guys, a couple things stood out...1) speed 2) o-line.

Despite what folks think around here...I believe Brian Kelly can produce points if he has a serviceable o-line...he does, and will.

I don't know what they plan to do on defense in '16, but they have added some very nice players that will be very good in '17-'18. In fact look for 17 and 18 to have them in the playoff both years. 16 is iffy, but still promising. This program is slowly improving the overall level of front line player and depth...if this continues...the second half of BK's stay should be fun.

 

[kmoose]

I think this is an interesting post. We have good talent on the roster when does it become an issue of coaching?

I will say this but i don't see us being a consistent playoff team with BVG as the defensive coordinator. He does limited recruiting and i think his coaching style has had enough attention.

His coaching style was good enough to put Georgia in the top 10 in scoring defense 3 of his 4 years there, two of those in the Top 5. He's a plenty good enough coach, so when does it become a player issue?

 

[NDPhilly]

Another thing that should be noted is that as long as we have great QB play, which we should for the next 4 years with Zaire, Kizer, and Wimbush, then our floor is like 9 wins.

 

[greyhammer90]

Another thing that should be noted is that as long as we have great QB play, which we should for the next 4 years with Zaire, Kizer, and Wimbush, then our floor is like 9 wins.

If this is the case, should 10 wins be a disappointment from here on out? If 9 is the worst we should be doing with our talent, is ten wins now a "meh" season? I haven't really been able to answer this question myself.