Game of Thrones

BleedBlueGold

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Here's a reddit post with a brief outline of all the obvious strategic blunders included in S8E3. GRRM knows enough about medieval history that you never stop and say, "Why the fuck would they do that?" when reading the books. Makes it difficult to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the scene. Other things that would have helped:
  • Some revelation, probably through Bran, regarding the why and the how behind the White Walkers.
  • Explanation of Melisandre's origin (how old is she really, how/why she maintains her youthful glamor, etc.) and a more meaningful death for her than simply walking out and collapsing in the snow.
  • Many more deaths of face characters (Brienne, Tormund, Grey Worm, etc.) That victory did not cost them nearly as much as it should have.
  • Some meaningful interaction between White Walkers and Valyrian Steel/ Dragonglass wielding heroes. A lot of those characters wield legendary swords, yet they apparently made no difference. And the show spent a lot of time focused on the importance of dragonglass, yet it also seemed to be irrelevant.
  • A more appropriate death for the Night King. It didn't need to be Jon prevailing in a 1 v 1 duel, but Arya teleporting behind him was too deus ex machina. Why not have Jon, Bran and Arya all cooperate with their impressive powers to bring him down? The NK was built up as the Supreme Baddie for 70 hours of screen time, and his death was really anti-climactic.



Yes, that was obviously what they were going for. Create an impressive spectacle to start the battle (a horde with flaming arahks), only for their inspiring charge to get quickly snuffed out. It was great cinematography, and effectively created a sense of dread inevitability. But good story-telling requires a lot more than impressive visuals interspersed with a few predetermined moments of bad-assery. You've got to make the reader/ viewer feel like the characters/ actors are people in a real world; not disposable extras in video game where the protagonists have invincible plot armor. Obviously irrational plot developments, like starting a battle against an innumerable horde of zombie with a cavalry charge in pitch darkness, weakens their story.



That would have definitely improved the episode. And I truly don't mean to disparage shownlies. They just have totally different expectations from GRRM's fans. Might be better to separate out posts like mine and greyhammer's into a separate thread since it seems to be interfering with the ability of some to just enjoy the show for what it is here.


I agree with all of this. I mentioned in an earlier post that I felt it could've been better (citing more main character deaths as something that just made sense, for example), but overall, I guess I'm just glad that I'm not that emotionally invested in the series to rate this episode the way everyone else seems to be. Those 90 minutes of television battle allowed me to briefly escape reality and be entertained, which is the big picture point, imo.
 

Whiskeyjack

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GRRM fans watching GoT be like:

tree.gif


last-jedi-luke-texts.gif
 

IrishLion

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Jon may not have been a totally bumbling idiot after all! (just a poor strategist and dragon rider)

It seems that he may have been yelling "GOOOOOO... GO! GO!" when he seems to be preparing to commit suicide via UnViserion... prior to that, when he's pinned down behind the wall, his expression changes ever so slightly when he's looking off screen, supposedly.

Is it a clue that he saw Arya doing her sprint towards the godswood, and that he decided to distract the dragon, which was clearly preventing him from getting to the same godswood?

I watched the clip and thought his "noticing" Arya was a stretch, but wearing headphones, it really does sound like he's yelling "GOOO" when he's presumably grunting and yelling at Undead Viserion.

Hmmmm.

Maybe we'll find that it was planned the whole time... Bran orchestrates a trap for the NK where everyone, including the NK, thinks Jon is coming for him in the godswood, but really Arya is supposed to making her way there. It doesn't jive with Melisandre miraculously showing up to urge her on, but it might explain why Arya seemed so determined to *get somewhere* after her initial fight against the wights, where she was weilding the staff and then trying to actively get through a specific doorway.
 

beryirish

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Jon may not have been a totally bumbling idiot after all! (just a poor strategist and dragon rider)

It seems that he may have been yelling "GOOOOOO... GO! GO!" when he seems to be preparing to commit suicide via UnViserion... prior to that, when he's pinned down behind the wall, his expression changes ever so slightly when he's looking off screen, supposedly.

Is it a clue that he saw Arya doing her sprint towards the godswood, and that he decided to distract the dragon, which was clearly preventing him from getting to the same godswood?

I watched the clip and thought his "noticing" Arya was a stretch, but wearing headphones, it really does sound like he's yelling "GOOO" when he's presumably grunting and yelling at Undead Viserion.

Hmmmm.

Maybe we'll find that it was planned the whole time... Bran orchestrates a trap for the NK where everyone, including the NK, thinks Jon is coming for him in the godswood, but really Arya is supposed to making her way there. It doesn't jive with Melisandre miraculously showing up to urge her on, but it might explain why Arya seemed so determined to *get somewhere* after her initial fight against the wights, where she was weilding the staff and then trying to actively get through a specific doorway.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-6981317/Game-Thrones-fans-point-Jon-Snow-wasnt-screaming-Viserion-dragon.html

Game Of Thrones fans point out that Jon Snow wasn't 'screaming' at Viserion the dragon and was instead shouting 'GO' to Arya Stark

ALSO:

Elite Daily – Fans have long predicted that it would be either Jon Snow or Daenerys Targaryen to take down the Night King, but in a twist ending, Arya Stark actually snuck up on the White Walker and stabbed him with her Valyrian steel dagger, reducing him to a pile of icicles. But Jon may not have been entirely useless in the cataclysmic battle — one scene in particular may prove Jon’s important role in helping Arya succeed in destroying the Night King.

As we see the Night King begin slowly advancing towards Bran near the weirwood tree, the show cuts to a scene of Jon Snow hiding under a piece of rubble from the undead dragon Viserion at the edge of Winterfell. Jon looks panicked, but then suddenly leaps up in a burst of energy to face the dragon and screams at it. It is not entirely clear whether Jon is just screaming in general or screaming a specific word, but fans on Reddit think Jon is screaming “Go!,” and you can definitely hear that upon rewatch. This is important because it suggests that Jon is distracting the dragon in order to allow another person to escape it. Only a few seconds after this scene of Jon screaming, we see Arya sneak-attacking the Night King.

All of this paints a picture where Jon Snow spotted Arya near Viserion as she was trying to make her way to the godswood, and to help his little sister out, Jon decided to potentially sacrifice himself by distracting the dragon so Arya could make it to the weirwood tree in time to kill the Night King. Thankfully, Arya was able to make it to her assassination appointment right on time thanks to Jon Snow’s dragon-bait distraction, and in turn, she was able to save Jon from Viserion by killing the Night King, which also caused all of his army to crumble with him.

Ok, Ok. Now we’re getting somewhere. That would be a little something that makes Arya’s sneak attack a little more interesting. I readily admit that I’m going right back to Reddit and the Internet looking for answers and material which I swore I would stop doing because it only sets you up for disappointment. But if Jon Snow actually realized Arya was there and capable of a run at the Night King if she had some cover, that would be a little more satisfying. If everyone was making fun of Jon Snow for looking completely useless, again, in the middle of battle, just screaming nonsense in Viserion’s face. But, maybe, if it turns out he was actually sacrificing himself for the greater good, that would check a lot of boxes. A) It means it took more than just a random fluke assassination from a little ninja girl to take down the baddest motherfucker in existence. Not much more, but at least a little bit more. 2) Jon Snow willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the name of the living would be extremely on brand and very much align with his values. and D) Makes me feel that there was actually some sort of plan coming together, albeit a last minute, makeshift one. If the death of the Night King turned out to be an orchestrated attempt from the Starks, that would be a lot better. Brother and Sister teaming up, like some sort of dual Prince Who Was Promised taking down Death? I could fuck with that.

Now, I’d rather that have been shown on the fucking episode. Clue the readers into this badass sacrifice and this on-the-fly battle plan so that you understand all that went into the demise of the show’s most evil characters. Maybe! Just a thought! Maybe they’ll explain it on Sunday and flash back to show us what really happened and we’ll get to appreciate the tactical approach to taking down the Night King.

Probably not. Probably getting my expectations up again. But this at least gives me a sliver of hope that there was more to it than just what we saw on the screen.
 
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gkIrish

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That would make Jon's actions make more sense but doesn't solve any of the other problems.

What's hilarious is that Feminists on Twitter are denouncing this theory as trying to give a man credit for killing the NK. Not kidding.
 

GATTACA!

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Total retroactive bs.

And even if that was their intention, which it wasn't, they failed miserably at communicating that to the audience.

The more I think about this episode the more I hate it. I can't believe an 80 minute battle directed by Miguel Sapochnik turned out like this.

Insert youwerethechosenone.jpg
 

IrishLion

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Total retroactive bs.

And even if that was their intention, which it wasn't, they failed miserably at communicating that to the audience.

The more I think about this episode the more I hate it. I can't believe an 80 minute battle directed by Miguel Sapochnik turned out like this.

Insert youwerethechosenone.jpg

It's not retroactive if he's legit yelling "go go go" lol.

More than anything, I'd just be happy that Jon wasn't (once again) a totally bumbling idiot, but rather was acting like an idiot for a reason.
 

GATTACA!

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It's not retroactive if he's legit yelling "go go go" lol.

More than anything, I'd just be happy that Jon wasn't (once again) a totally bumbling idiot, but rather was acting like an idiot for a reason.

The theory is a retroactive fix because that's clearly not what was intended. He's not yelling go, and if he was you wouldn't need to put on headphones to hear it. There are also no shots that indicate Jon can see Arya. It's a total mess if that's what they were trying to do.
 

greyhammer90

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Man I was going to be upset that Jon's arc amounted to nothing, but now that someone has theorized that he distracted a dragon from seeing someone off screen who was apparently able to sneak past everyone else without trouble or explanation anyway, I feel fulfilled.

Can't wait to hear his full title and honors now:

Aegon Targaryen: Fourth of his name, Reborn, King of the North, Distraction of Dragons.
 

gkIrish

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Man I was going to be upset that Jon's arc amounted to nothing, but now that someone has theorized that he distracted a dragon from seeing someone off screen who was apparently able to sneak past everyone else without trouble or explanation anyway, I feel fulfilled.

Can't wait to hear his full title and honors now:

Aegon Targaryen: Fourth of his name, Reborn, King of the North, Distraction of Dragons.

Don't worry. He will kill Cersei in order to subvert expectations.
 

ACamp1900

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Just saw the clip... did no one address the NK touching Arya before she stabs him? Or was there something simple outside teh clip that I'm missing?
 

Irish YJ

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Man I was going to be upset that Jon's arc amounted to nothing, but now that someone has theorized that he distracted a dragon from seeing someone off screen who was apparently able to sneak past everyone else without trouble or explanation anyway, I feel fulfilled.

Can't wait to hear his full title and honors now:

Aegon Targaryen: Fourth of his name, Reborn, King of the North, Distraction of Dragons.

you forgot "FXXXer of aunts"
 

Irish YJ

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The theory is a retroactive fix because that's clearly not what was intended. He's not yelling go, and if he was you wouldn't need to put on headphones to hear it. There are also no shots that indicate Jon can see Arya. It's a total mess if that's what they were trying to do.

Planning on rewatching tonight. I'll turn subtitles on to see if there's anything there.
 

IrishLion

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Man I was going to be upset that Jon's arc amounted to nothing, but now that someone has theorized that he distracted a dragon from seeing someone off screen who was apparently able to sneak past everyone else without trouble or explanation anyway, I feel fulfilled.

Can't wait to hear his full title and honors now:

Aegon Targaryen: Fourth of his name, Reborn, King of the North, Distraction of Dragons.

It's not gonna amount to nothing, duh.

He's going to kill Euron and Cersei, and then claim the throne.

He's going to marry Dany, whom he keeps from turning into the mad queen by the power of his love, and who willingly gives up her own claim to the throne because of her own love for him.

Then he's going to have beautiful children, and he'll get to smile and watch them play in a beautifully remodeled dragon pit as they play with their cute baby dragons.

Then he'll get to visit Sansa and Arya and Bran for every family meal in Winterfell, and they will be jolly occasions where Bran uses his powers to look back on funny moments in history, taking them all on his warging journeys after dinner as a sort of "Greenseer Theater."

Then the show will end with dragons flying in the sky as birds chirp and a babbling stream gurgles along under a beautiful Spring sunset, while Ghost and Nymeria lay together in a field and watch it all happen.


MY HOW THE BRAINS WOULD EXPLODE.
 

ACamp1900

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Then the show will end with dragons flying in the sky as birds chirp and a babbling stream gurgles along under a beautiful Spring sunset, while Ghost and Nymeria lay together in a field and watch it all happen.


MY HOW THE BRAINS WOULD EXPLODE.

Not just a stream... The Trident... last shot is of ghost Lyanna and Rhaegar standing together smiling....
 

ACamp1900

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Hmm. Let's see what the people think about how that worked in Star Wars...

"Sorry, the original actor who played Rhaegar was unavailable so we thought the next best choice was Hayden Christensen..."
 

ACamp1900

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Being serious for a second: I am super curious about the NKs touch/ability to change though,... being a casual with the show I thought his touch changed people/creatures into walkers. Is that not the case? He pretty clearly touches Aryas neck a good second or more before she stabs him.
 

IrishLion

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Being serious for a second: I am super curious about the NKs touch/ability to change though,... being a casual with the show I thought his touch changed people/creatures into walkers. Is that not the case? He pretty clearly touches Aryas neck a good second or more before she stabs him.

He's obviously got the power to raise wights without touch, and can change babies into Others with his touch if that's what he's intending to do, I guess.

The whole deal where he touched Bran and broke the protective spell was a different thing entirely.
 

ACamp1900

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He's obviously got the power to raise wights without touch, and can change babies into Others with his touch if that's what he's intending to do, I guess.

The whole deal where he touched Bran and broke the protective spell was a different thing entirely.

Bran wasn’t skin on skin and more of in a vision kind of thing tho right??
 

IrishLion

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Bran wasn’t skin on skin and more of in a vision kind of thing tho right??

Yeah that's true, but I thought it was basically like a physical touch because they were breaking the natural laws of magic or something.

Basically, the Night King has the bad touch whether it's real life or a weird loop dream... unless you WANT him to touch you, in which case you are free to stab him in the abdomen.
 

beryirish

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It's not gonna amount to nothing, duh.

He's going to kill Euron and Cersei, and then claim the throne.

He's going to marry Dany, whom he keeps from turning into the mad queen by the power of his love, and who willingly gives up her own claim to the throne because of her own love for him.

Then he's going to have beautiful children, and he'll get to smile and watch them play in a beautifully remodeled dragon pit as they play with their cute baby dragons.

Then he'll get to visit Sansa and Arya and Bran for every family meal in Winterfell, and they will be jolly occasions where Bran uses his powers to look back on funny moments in history, taking them all on his warging journeys after dinner as a sort of "Greenseer Theater."

Then the show will end with dragons flying in the sky as birds chirp and a babbling stream gurgles along under a beautiful Spring sunset, while Ghost and Nymeria lay together in a field and watch it all happen.


MY HOW THE BRAINS WOULD EXPLODE.

You forgot a new litter of Dire wolves. Watching them play with the baby dragons would be sooooo cutie.
 

gkIrish

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Being serious for a second: I am super curious about the NKs touch/ability to change though,... being a casual with the show I thought his touch changed people/creatures into walkers. Is that not the case? He pretty clearly touches Aryas neck a good second or more before she stabs him.

I don't know the answer but wights behave like Walking Dead zombies when Arya is stuck in the library with them so if you are looking for consistency you're out of luck.
 

greyhammer90

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being a casual with the show I thought his touch changed people/creatures into walkers.

I don't think so. If you're referring to the baby scene, I'm pretty sure that was a situation where he was doing some spell or ritual. It's like how Melisandre could cause things to catch on fire if she took her time and went through the formalities of doing witchcraft, but not everything she touches bursts into flames.
 
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greyhammer90

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I don't know the answer but wights behave like Walking Dead zombies when Arya is stuck in the library with them so if you are looking for consistency you're out of luck.

That scene had one of the worst recent tropes of "something really small hits the ground and perks up the ears of the zombies". Arya had a drop of blood hit the floor and it caused the wights to start investigating... in a room with a crackling fire... surrounded by a battle with screams and armor and swords and dragons.
 

greyhammer90

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I'm legitimately going to miss Melisandre. She was just the right amount of crazy/convictional that you never knew what she was up to or what she could pull. Also Van Houten always completely nailed that role. In earlier seasons she would ride up on a horse, and you would immediately get a knot in your stomach thinking "What's she going to do now?"
 

gkIrish

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I'm legitimately going to miss Melisandre. She was just the right amount of crazy/convictional that you never knew what she was up to or what she could pull. Also Van Houten always completely nailed that role. In earlier seasons she would ride up on a horse, and you would immediately get a knot in your stomach thinking "What's she going to do now?"

Something else happened to my body when she was on screen but ok

That scene had one of the worst recent tropes of "something really small hits the ground and perks up the ears of the zombies". Arya had a drop of blood hit the floor and it caused the wights to start investigating... in a room with a crackling fire... surrounded by a battle with screams and armor and swords and dragons.

IIRC the room was soundproof so you couldn't hear anything going on outside. Which is equally dumb.
 
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