Game of Thrones

[woolybug25]

I agree in principle, but that's still no excuse for poor execution. In a vacuum, the Battle of the Bastards was fantastic. But anyone paying attention knew that Sansa had written to LF and that the KotV were coming to save the day. That completely undercut the tension of the entire battle and made all of the pre-battle dialogue about how their forces were insufficient irrelevant. And no, this didn't rise to the level of "dramatic irony" because they very much set up the battle as if they were doomed to lose and that LF's arrival was supposed to be a triumphant surprise.


Predictability has never been my primary issue. I'm more concerned with shitty writing / dialogue and unresolved plot holes.

A very minor example: When Sansa was feeding Ramsay to his dogs, she mentioned that the dogs hadn't eaten for seven days. The problem is that Sansa had already ridden away from the parlay on the field when Ramsay made that comment to Jon and his generals. Sansa had no idea the last time Ramsay's dogs had eaten.

Not a big deal, but extraordinarily lazy.

Yeah... She like, couldn't have talked to Jon or whatever.

You should start writing, Wiz. Since you know so much more than people that do it for a living.

#armchairwriter

 

[Armyirish47]

Yeah... She like, couldn't have talked to Jon or whatever.

You should start writing, Wiz. Since you know so much more than people that do it for a living.

#armchairwriter

(Scene in some cold castle room, with candles or some shit)

Jon : Hey Sansa, I didn't kill Ramsey because I been dead before.

Sansa: LOLWUT?

Jon: Yeah <insert something poetic about death, Kit can free style>

Sansa: You know what we would be poetic maesterdexter? Having his dogs eat him!

Jon: Word? They haven't eaten in like a week.

Sansa: Done and done, the North remembers.

(Scene ends as Sansa jumps in the shower and soaps up)

 

[dublinirish]

Yeah... She like, couldn't have talked to Jon or whatever.

You should start writing, Wiz. Since you know so much more than people that do it for a living.

#armchairwriter

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[greyhammer90]

You should start writing, Wiz. Since you know so much more than people that do it for a living.

#armchairwriter

Just because voicing criticism takes less skill than the process of making what is being critiqued doesn't mean that the criticism isn't valid.

Since this is the third page straight of this discussion and it doesn't appear to be going anywhere I don't feel like I'm detracting from the thread in saying that the constant hostility on this thread towards other opinions is far more tiring to read than any negativity (or fanboyish gushing) toward the show.

I'd much rather read the thoughts of you, Whiskey, Gk, Wiz, Lion, YJ, Killz, et al. on the quality of the show than your thoughts on the quality of others posts.

 

[IrishLion]

I'd much rather read the thoughts of you, Whiskey, Gk, Wiz, Lion, YJ, Killz, et al. on the quality of the show than your thoughts on the quality of others posts.

I'm gonna assume that was in order of importance, and now I'm choosing to be offended.

#ArmChairOpinionRanker

 

[greyhammer90]

I'm choosing to be offended.

Like I care about your opinion.

 

[IrishLion]

Like I care about your opinion.

 

[phillyirish]

To me the battle was just very predictably done and anyone who has seen the Braveheart, 300, Cold Mountain would have noticed a bunch of homages to battle scenes in these movies. It'd be ok if these movies were cult classics but pretty much everyone has seen them

Omg, exactly!! They just took highlights from some of the best battle scenes ever and mashed then all together. Seriously Ramsay pulling a King Edward and firing on his own troops. The cold mountain homage was almost spot on. And can't forget the biggest one, Littlefinger and his Rhohirrim charging down the hill to save the day at the pelennor fields.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Vox's Matthew Yglesias just published an article titled "Game of Thrones' 'Battle of the Bastards' looked great, but it didn't make any damn sense":

Matthew Yglesias: "Battle of the Bastards" is an exciting episode of television, especially from the standpoint of technical virtuosity, but as a piece of writing and storytelling it strikes me as borderline disastrous.

The biggest problem, to my mind, is the portrayal of Ramsay Bolton as some kind of tactical genius (not to mention Westeros’s greatest marksman). Everything we’ve seen of the character — and we have seen far too much of him — suggests he is an out-of-control sadist with no ability to restrain his vile appetites.

All he had to do to consolidate House Bolton’s control of the North back in season five was, you know, not rape and torture Sansa Stark. He didn’t have to stop raping and torturing people in general — just leave that one person alone — but he didn’t, because he can’t. Nor could he restrain himself from keeping Theon Greyjoy around as a psychologically shattered pet. That all blew up in his face, and as a result there's an army of thousands, including a giant and powerful sorceress, at the gates of Winterfell.

But now suddenly he’s a brilliant commander, despite a total lack of training, who can count on a loyal and well-disciplined army, even though he seized power by blatantly murdering his father and brother.

What’s most egregious is that presenting Ramsay as such a strong commander seemed unnecessary to hit the basic beats of the story. It was already well-established that the Bolton army was twice as big as the Stark army. What’s more, the Boltons had more horses. They also had the advantage of fighting on a prepared battlefield their forces were more familiar with, and the support of a well-supplied castle.

The stage was perfectly set for a battle in which the superior leadership of Jon Snow, Davos, and Tormund Giantsbane led a badly outnumbered force to hold its own before nearly succumbing to the inexorable math of Bolton superiority until being rescued by the Knights of the Vale.

Instead we got Jon riding headlong into an obvious trap, Davos letting a mounted force be inexplicably encircled by pikemen, and Sansa forgetting(?) to mention that she’d ravened a letter to Littlefinger and a bunch of extra guys are heading their way.

Also, remember when Melisandre could birth demon assassins to help her favored side win battles? That skill would have been useful here, eh? Or maybe she could have deployed some kind of glamour to make it look like the wildlings had a couple dozen giants and terrify the Bolton troops into breaking ranks and fleeing?

She and Jon even had a conversation where they specifically discussed her magical powers. It would have been an ideal time for Jon to ask for help and for Melisandre to come up with some in-story excuse for why she couldn’t help. What’s a pre-battle chat for if not a little expository dialogue to set things up?

As Todd wrote last week, Game of Thrones’ writers are doing an excellent job of cutting some of the logistical knots that George R.R. Martin has written himself into. If the plot calls for the Greyjoys to show up in Meereen, their ships just show up in Meereen without the need for a 90-part exploration of the journey. But at times I feel the writers lose sight of what the story is about.

Why dwell so long across so many seasons on Ramsay’s stomach-turning pathology if it’s not going to play any meaningful role in his downfall?

 

[wizards8507]

Yeah... She like, couldn't have talked to Jon or whatever.

You should start writing, Wiz. Since you know so much more than people that do it for a living.

#armchairwriter

That's quite literally the dumbest argument someone can make on a sports discussion board. We spend a good chunk of our free time talking about how Cam McDaniel is slow, Joe Schmidt can't tackle, and Matthias Farley can't cover, but I'm 99% sure that they're better at football than any one of us. The GoT showrunners don't suck in comparison to me, they suck in comparison to other showrunners.

The biggest problem, to my mind, is the portrayal of Ramsay Bolton as some kind of tactical genius (not to mention Westeros’s greatest marksman). Everything we’ve seen of the character — and we have seen far too much of him — suggests he is an out-of-control sadist with no ability to restrain his vile appetites.

Lest we forget, Ramsay was able to destroy Stannis' army with no more than Ser Twenty of House Goodmen.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Lest we forget, Ramsay was able to destroy Stannis' army with no more than Ser Twenty of House Goodmen.

Where was that fabled Bolton bad ass during the The Battle of the Bastards? He undoubtedly could have bested Wun Wun in hand-to-hand combat.

 

[woolybug25]

That's quite literally the dumbest argument someone can make on a sports discussion board. We spend a good chunk of our free time talking about how Cam McDaniel is slow, Joe Schmidt can't tackle, and Matthias Farley can't cover, but I'm 99% sure that they're better at football than any one of us. The GoT showrunners don't suck in comparison to me, they suck in comparison to other showrunners.


Lest we forget, Ramsay was able to destroy Stannis' army with no more than Ser Twenty of House Goodmen.

I'm interested... What show runners are you inferring?

 

[koonja]

That's quite literally the dumbest argument someone can make on a sports discussion board. We spend a good chunk of our free time talking about how Cam McDaniel is slow, Joe Schmidt can't tackle, and Matthias Farley can't cover, but I'm 99% sure that they're better at football than any one of us. The GoT showrunners don't suck in comparison to me, they suck in comparison to other showrunners.


Lest we forget, Ramsay was able to destroy Stannis' army with no more than Ser Twenty of House Goodmen.

I'm better than Joe Schmidt FYI.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm better than Joe Schmidt FYI.

Schmidt would have recognized Ramsay's play prior to the snap, giving him time to properly realign the Northern troops. Snow should be riding the bench after that atrocious showing.

 

[Emcee77]

Schmidt would have recognized Ramsay's play prior to the snap, giving him time to properly realign the Northern troops. Snow should be riding the bench after that atrocious showing.

Haha. In your scenario, Jon Snow is the GoT Nyles Morgan

 

[ND NYC]

so will my Nights King be able to wight all the dead from the bastards' battlefield? hoping he can get wun-wun and hodor, too.

gonna need numbers vs khaleesi and her dragons

 

[IrishLion]

 

[IrishLax]

Vox's Matthew Yglesias just published an article titled "Game of Thrones' 'Battle of the Bastards' looked great, but it didn't make any damn sense":

Nailed it. IMO, they screwed up royally given that they could've written an episode with the same general premise but made it far more compelling and logical.

Take for example the arrow scene... I just had a discussion yesterday that it would've played out much more compelling if he DIDN'T hit Rickon and his penchant for "games" caught up with him. That simple change alone (and then Ramsay panics and orders all the archers to loose their arrows or the cavalry to charge) would've had way more weight... not to mention adding any of the northern intrigue.

A completely even battle where the Knights of the Vale show up or part of Ramsay's army goes disobedient would've been better than telegraphing the ending.

 

[GATTACA!]

Just because voicing criticism takes less skill than the process of making what is being critiqued doesn't mean that the criticism isn't valid.

Since this is the third page straight of this discussion and it doesn't appear to be going anywhere I don't feel like I'm detracting from the thread in saying that the constant hostility on this thread towards other opinions is far more tiring to read than any negativity (or fanboyish gushing) toward the show.

I'd much rather read the thoughts of you, Whiskey, Gk, Wiz, Lion, YJ, Killz, et al. on the quality of the show than your thoughts on the quality of others posts.

 

[IrishinTN]

I understand the complaints on lazy writing and have complained of it myself. I think it's the vehemence of the attacks saying the show is terrible/awful/stupid or words to that affect that makes some of us wonder...if you hate it that much (and that's fine if you do), why watch?

 

[dublinirish]

Nailed it. IMO, they screwed up royally given that they could've written an episode with the same general premise but made it far more compelling and logical.

Take for example the arrow scene... I just had a discussion yesterday that it would've played out much more compelling if he DIDN'T hit Rickon and his penchant for "games" caught up with him. That simple change alone (and then Ramsay panics and orders all the archers to loose their arrows or the cavalry to charge) would've had way more weight... not to mention adding any of the northern intrigue.

A completely even battle where the Knights of the Vale show up or part of Ramsay's army goes disobedient would've been better than telegraphing the ending.

i thought for sure this would happen (at least one of the houses of the north would switch sides) ala the Irish merc's in Braveheart.

The circle phalanx around Jon's army just looked so dorky to me i was cringing watching it.

 

[pkt77242]

Game of Thrones: Why Ghost Sat Out the Battle of the Bastards - IGN

 

[IrishinTN]

So, what do you think is in store next? Does Sansa marry little finger? Does that make a big alliance of the Vale, Winterfell and the Wildlings?

Does anyone believe Euron has a chance in hell of marrying Dany and joining her army with his to win Westeros?

And I must admit I'm still a little confused where Brans storyline is leading in all this.

 

[IrishLion]

So, what do you think is in store next? Does Sansa marry little finger? Does that make a big alliance of the Vale, Winterfell and the Wildlings?

I don't think it'll work out quite that smoothly. Littlefinger is bound to throw a wrench into things after coming to Sansa's aid, and there's no telling how the unstable Lord of the Vale (Little Rob Aryn) will act after sending his men with Littlefinger.

Does anyone believe Euron has a chance in hell of marrying Dany and joining her army with his to win Westeros?

Hell no. That probably means there's one more big battle before Dany gets to Westeros.

And I must admit I'm still a little confused where Brans storyline is leading in all this.

Definitely interested in getting a concrete answer on how his powers will affect the battle against the Night's King, and if all the buildup has been "worth it" in that regard... is something HUGE in store for him still, or is his entire story meant to simply reveal important things from the past (which would be HUGE, if the fans hadn't figured everything out already)?

 

[IrishLion]

Also....

Considering the title of the finale, what are the chances that the episode is accompanied by a release date for the next book?

 

[Irish YJ]

I don't think it'll work out quite that smoothly. Littlefinger is bound to throw a wrench into things after coming to Sansa's aid, and there's no telling how the unstable Lord of the Vale (Little Rob Aryn) will act after sending his men with Littlefinger.

Hoping Aryia tosses that little shit out the moon door, or whatever it's called after she pokes him with Needle a few hundred times. And I can see Sansa doing the deed (killing) Little Finger next season.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Hoping Aryia tosses that little shit out the moon door, or whatever it's called after she pokes him with Needle a few hundred times. And I can see Sansa doing the deed (killing) Little Finger next season.

Could see her seducing Peter and then kicking him out the Moon Door (like he did to Lysa).

 

[Irish YJ]

Could see her seducing Peter and then kicking him out the Moon Door (like he did to Lysa).

Excellent point. Lysa was crae crae, but Peter going out the door would be a little cosmic justice.
I'm really looking forward to both girls story lines next year. Hoping they are done well. Huge possibilities with both.

 

[IrishLion]

I've nearly forgotten what a shithead Littlefinger is.

There are times where the character seems like he truly cares about Sansa because of her mother, but other times I remember that he just wants all of the lordships.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Excellent point. Lysa was crae crae, but Peter going out the door would be a little cosmic justice.

Sansa's storyline is pretty obviously "naive noble girl learns court intrigue from master manipulator that betrayed her family, becomes a skilled political actor, then turns the tables on her teacher". So her dispatching Petyr just as he did Lysa (utilizing the other's desire to do so) seems too good for GRRM to pass up.