Game of Thrones - Season Four

[Whiskeyjack]

There have been several posts along the lines of, "Martin would never let the show pass him because X, Y, Z..." That assumes that he's capable of kicking it into gear and finishing two books in 3-4 years; and unless he's been intentionally dicking his fans over, the last decade strongly implies that isn't capable of just pushing this stuff out.

Yes, it would be a travesty if Benioff and Weiss finished his tale before he could publish it, for a lot of reasons. But HBO has the contractual rights to do so, they don't intend to wait for Martin, and Martin seems almost resigned to it happening in recent interviews. I'm not happy about it.

There would also be serious problems with switching formats and doing A Dream of Spring as three separate movies. If possible, it might solve a lot of the problems here; but such a thing has never been attempted before, so I'm not counting on it.

I understand that he is saying all that now because he has a big ego and doesn't think he is going to die anytime soon. But I would think if he was on his deathbed he would have an "oh shit, the story isn't complete" moment and allow someone to complete the books.

I don't think so. Martin is adamant on this point. He won't even allow non-commercial fan fiction based on aSoIaF.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm gonna boycott the show so hard when it catches Martin and spoils the end. The spoiler tables will be reversed between readers and non-readers. It's gonna be awful.

 

[greyhammer90]

That's not accurate. HBO had already started doing these types of series and HBO was the very first group that David Benioff and D. B. Weiss approached about the project. They had to pitch the idea to Martin as well. It wasn't like Martin was shopping the idea at all. This process didn't start until 2006… when were you a junior in college?

First, if you could show me the previous HBO show that was "this type of series" tell me because I'd love to watch it. The only thing that comes close to this kind of scope is BOB and that was a miniseries by Spielberg about WWII. (AKA a more secure investment than snow shovels in South Bend, plus a miniseries so it was a one-off and not even close to the same kind of long-term investment)

Second, I'm not saying Martin was shopping the idea out, or that he was desperate. But HBO wasn't desperate either, and any producer who's about to sink millions upon millions of dollars into something is going to make sure that the story can actually be told before committing. To do otherwise would be incredibly stupid.

You made it sound like HBO was in some type of a bidding war with tons of other channels, which I've never heard and would be shocked to hear about considering that most interviews I've read insinuate that HBO was taking a big risk with the show.

Lastly, when I said the show became huge to the general public, I was talking about the time when friends actually knew who Ned Stark was, not serial fantasy book readers. That was around 2009, when I was a junior in college.

 

[woolybug25]

First, if you could show me the previous HBO show that was "this type of series" tell me because I'd love to watch it. The only thing that comes close to this kind of scope is BOB and that was a miniseries by Spielberg about WWII. (AKA a more secure investment than snow shovels in South Bend, plus a miniseries so it was a one-off and not even close to the same kind of long-term investment)

HBO aired Rome (2005) and Starz had just started airing "Spartacus" a year prior to the start of GoT. Seeing that the actor playing the main character of that show died before GoT started… i'm guessing they would have been happy to be a suitor for the show as well.

It's also a fact that HBO was the first and only people they approached.

Second, I'm not saying Martin was shopping the idea out, or that he was desperate. But HBO wasn't desperate either, and any producer who's about to sink millions upon millions of dollars into something is going to make sure that the story can actually be told before committing. To do otherwise would be incredibly stupid.

That's exactly what they did. There was no external pressure other than the fact that David Benioff and D. B. Weiss could take it somewhere else. Martin had to be convinced to even do the show. That's why they have out clauses. They approached HBO at the end of 2006 and had the first script to them until Aug of 2007. The pilot didn't air until 2008.

You made it sound like HBO was in some type of a bidding war with tons of other channels, which I've never heard and would be shocked to hear about considering that most interviews I've read insinuate that HBO was taking a big risk with the show.

I said no such thing. In fact, I specifically said that HBO knew immediately that they had a winner and said yes without ever getting another bidder involved. You said that they were hesitant and were taking a risk. They certainly did not feel that way.

Lastly, when I said the show became huge to the general public, I was talking about the time when friends actually knew who Ned Stark was, not serial fantasy book readers. That was around 2009, when I was a junior in college.

That's one year after the series began. People started knowing who Ned Stark was because they were seeing him on TV.

 

[Emcee77]

There have been several posts along the lines of, "Martin would never let the show pass him because X, Y, Z..." That assumes that he's capable of kicking it into gear and finishing two books in 3-4 years; and unless he's intentionally dicking his fans over, the last decade strongly implies that isn't capable of just pushing this stuff out.

I don't know if that's quite true. Sometimes a writing project just fills the amount of time you have to do it. I know I've found that when I have plenty of time to complete a writing project, even if I basically know where I want to go, I'll question every citation and go off on research tangents to firm up relatively minor points. And all that research seems totally necessary at the time. Then maybe the next week I'll be dealing with an issue of similar complexity but be up against a firm deadline, and I just plow through it and don't sweat the small stuff as much. I end up with a product that is honestly just as good as the one I spent twice as long on, and I realize that the thing was basically right after the first draft and I didn't need to stress over it as much.

So I don't think suggesting that he could step it up if he were properly motivated implies that GRRM has been intentionally dicking his fans over ... it just implies that maybe he didn't realize how slowly he was working until a motivating factor was introduced into the equation.

But I agree that, based on the last decade, hoping for GRRM to work faster is just hope. He hasn't done anything I know of to indicate that he can actually work faster, and it is entirely possible that he can't.

 

[gkIrish]

I don't think so. Martin is adamant on this point. He won't even allow non-commercial fan fiction based on aSoIaF.

This just further shows how big his ego is. He definitely doesn't think he may die anytime soon. Pretty sure I've read that somewhere. My only point is that if he does in fact know he will die soon (cancer or whatnot) I think he would change his mind.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So I don't think suggesting that he could step it up if he were properly motivated implies that GRRM has been intentionally dicking his fans over ... it just implies that maybe he didn't realize how slowly he was working until a motivating factor was introduced into the equation.

I hope you're right. And to be clear, I don't think Martin's slow pace reflects a serious flaw in his character or anything. This sort of thing happens to many successful fantasy writers; or, as Martin is fond of quoting Tolkein, "the tale grew in the telling." The writer plans on a relatively compact series (aSoIaF was originally conceived as a trilogy), and he publishes his first book. It turns out to be very popular, so he is tempted by greed and hubris to expand the series (Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series is the poster child for this phenomenon).

Unsurprisingly, just as it's difficult for TV script writers to maintain a compelling plot while milking a popular show (Lost, anyone?), it's also difficult to maintain a strong narrative framework in an epic fantasy series when the "middle" of the story keeps getting larger. Consequently, AFfC and ADwD are bloated and plodding (splitting the PoVs was a terrible idea; what the hell does his editor do?). And now Martin can't wrap things up neatly; he has to bring closure to a huge cast of characters (many of which are unnecessary) and a bunch of superfluous plotlines, which presumably is going to make finishing his series a lot harder than it should have been.

In short, he didn't have the discipline (or a strong editor) to maintain a tight narrative focus, and now he's paying the price for it.

 

[IrishLax]

The weirdest thing is that I don't think Martin actually grasps just how much he is pissing off some people and how he might be remembered in an OVERWHELMINGLY negative light depending on how things go.

He cares so much about his legacy... but every move he makes seems to undermine his ability to leave one that will be remembered fondly.

 

[IrishLion]

I struggle with that thought every time I open these GoT threads. I desparately want to be pissed off at Martin for not realizing how many people he is leading on right now, and for not realizing how badly we all want to see the story end. I want to be mad at him for working on short stories and novellas and approving graphic novels rather than finishing the 6th (!!! just the sixth !!! not even the finale !!!) book, but I can't bring myself to do it.

Maybe someone can form an argument that puts concrete responsibility on Martin to make us happy. But at the end of the day, I can't justify getting legitimately mad at the guy. These are his works, his creations. Who am I to get pissed that he wants to explore a short story before continuing work on Winds of Winter?

This is George R.R. Martin's world. We're just reading in it.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The weirdest thing is that I don't think Martin actually grasps just how much he is pissing off some people and how he might be remembered in an OVERWHELMINGLY negative light depending on how things go.

He cares so much about his legacy... but every move he makes seems to undermine his ability to leave one that will be remembered fondly.

He's a victim of his own success. None of his peers had their books turned into a massively popular TV show by HBO, which put some serious time constraints on him.

Without the show, fans of his books would continue being frustrated, but too invested to walk away. Just like Robert Jordan's fans were. It's the HBO series, and all the publicity/ scrutiny that came along with it, which has placed Martin in this awkward position.

I don't have too much sympathy for him. He can roll around in piles of cash if the stress starts to get to him.

 

[IrishLion]

He's a victim of his own success. None of his peers had their books turned into a massively popular TV show by HBO, which put some serious time constraints on him.

Without the show, fans of his books would continue being frustrated, but too invested to walk away. Just like Robert Jordan's fans were. It's the HBO series, and all the publicity/ scrutiny that came along with it, which has placed Martin in this awkward position.

I don't have too much sympathy for him. He can roll around in piles of cash if the stress starts to get to him.

Speaking of that, are those any good? I just started Malazan Book of the Fallen series again, but I'm looking to make a summer reading list for after that.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Speaking of that, are those any good? I just started Malazan Book of the Fallen series again, but I'm looking to make a summer reading list for after that.

Starts strong, but falls flat in the middle. Jordan transparently reverses character development and literally resurrects previously defeated enemies to stretch the series to absurd lengths. He, of course, died before the series was finished, so the last book was written by someone else.

The Wheel of Time was very influential on other fantasy writers, so if you're a fan of the genre, you might want to read it for that reason alone. But I couldn't finish it (stopped around book 7 or 8).

 

[IrishLion]

Starts strong, but falls flat in the middle. Jordan transparently reverses character development and literally resurrects previously defeated enemies to stretch the series to absurd lengths. He, of course, died before the series was finished, so the last book was written by someone else.

The Wheel of Time was very influential on other fantasy writers, so if you're a fan of the genre, you might want to read it for that reason alone. But I couldn't finish it (stopped around book 7 or 8).

Do not want.

 

[gkIrish]

Any chance he is actually pretty much done with the books but there's a secret agreement between him and HBO to not release them until the show catches up? That would actually make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Any chance he is actually pretty much done with the books but there's a secret agreement between him and HBO to not release them until the show catches up? That would actually make a lot of sense to me.

I suppose it's possible; if true, they may be telling everyone that they have no obligation to wait for Martin and don't intend to in order to assure fans of the show that their favorite series won't be held hostage to an elderly procrastinating author.

But signing such a contract would be a poor business move by HBO. Unless Martin had the foresight to get that in the initial agreement (when he had the most leverage), then I doubt such a clause exists.

 

[Emcee77]

Any chance he is actually pretty much done with the books but there's a secret agreement between him and HBO to not release them until the show catches up? That would actually make a lot of sense to me.

I don't follow. Why would that be a good deal for Martin?

 

[wizards8507]

I don't follow. Why would that be a good deal for Martin?

Builds demand. I, personally, had never even heard of these books until the show came out and since then I've read all five twice through. The more show fans there are, the more new readers are created.

To be clear, I don't believe there's any secret agreement between him and HBO but it's not the craziest idea I've heard.

 

[gkIrish]

I don't follow. Why would that be a good deal for Martin?

Because they are paying him to wait? It's a completely legitimate business proposition. We will pay you X amount on top of what we already paid for the TV rights to not release the next book until the show catches up.

 

[woolybug25]

Because they are paying him to wait?

The drama involved with the series catching up to the books and then BOOM…. Final book of the saga paired with multiple blockbuster feature films.

There is literally hundreds of millions of reasons to build that type of suspense.

 

[IrishLion]

You guys are getting my hopes up.

 

[wizards8507]

Any other book readers concerned that the simplification of the plot for TV audiences will result in further-simplified "conclusions" to many of our favorite plotlines in the books? Being a book-reader first, part of what I love is trying to figure out who is/isn't/will be important to the story later down the road. We lose a lot of that nuance in the show because many of those who are neither important now nor in the future have just been given the axe entirely in the show. In that way, the show can create "plot spoilers" for the books simply by omitting certain details that we no longer have to wonder about.

 

[Son of Kenmare]

Doesn't matter who the show kills off as evidenced by Beric Dondarrion when the Dog kills him and he's brought back.

 

[GATTACA!]

There have been several posts along the lines of, "Martin would never let the show pass him because X, Y, Z..." That assumes that he's capable of kicking it into gear and finishing two books in 3-4 years; and unless he's been intentionally dicking his fans over, the last decade strongly implies that isn't capable of just pushing this stuff out.

Yes, it would be a travesty if Benioff and Weiss finished his tale before he could publish it, for a lot of reasons. But HBO has the contractual rights to do so, they don't intend to wait for Martin, and Martin seems almost resigned to it happening in recent interviews. I'm not happy about it.

There would also be serious problems with switching formats and doing A Dream of Spring as three separate movies. If possible, it might solve a lot of the problems here; but such a thing has never been attempted before, so I'm not counting on it.

I don't think so. Martin is adamant on this point. He won't even allow non-commercial fan fiction based on aSoIaF.

Not really. In terms of storytelling it would give you a way bigger budget, each episode is between 6-8 million. 7 mil x 10 episodes = 70 mil per season. As an example The Amazing Spiderman 2 has a reported budget of 200 mil. For the 3 movies combined you're looking at roughly 10x the budget. This is the upside along with exposure.

The problem is still the same with the timeline because assuming aDoS is a single book that book would need to be published before the first movie comes out. Splitting it into 3 doesn't help anything.

 

[GATTACA!]

GRRM is just playing us all. He's probably already cut a deal with HBO to film three major motion pictures after the show airs it's "Winds of Winter" seasons. He's laughing at us as we fret about the timeline, while he toils along with the 4,500 page first draft of "A Dream of Spring."

That's insane. Even pairing that down to half is at least two giant books. aDwD is just over 1,000.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Not really. In terms of storytelling it would give you a way bigger budget, each episode is between 6-8 million. 7 mil x 10 episodes = 70 mil per season. As an example The Amazing Spiderman 2 has a reported budget of 200 mil. For the 3 movies combined you're looking at roughly 10x the budget. This is the upside along with exposure.

Movies enjoy bigger budgets because they're expected to reach a much larger audience and bring in a lot more cash. Consequently, the movies would have to be comprehensible and appealing to millions of people who aren't already fans. The show is already struggling to keep those who haven't read the books up-to-date with the myriad plot lines and characters. How are the movies going to adequately summarize the previous 6 books for everyone who shows up in the theater with no idea of the immense history behind it?

The problem is still the same with the timeline because assuming aDoS is a single book that book would need to be published before the first movie comes out. Splitting it into 3 doesn't help anything.

There were lots of problems with splitting the final Harry Potter book into two separate movies. So we're going to try to split A Dream of Spring into three?

 

[Emcee77]

Builds demand. I, personally, had never even heard of these books until the show came out and since then I've read all five twice through. The more show fans there are, the more new readers are created.

To be clear, I don't believe there's any secret agreement between him and HBO but it's not the craziest idea I've heard.

Because they are paying him to wait? It's a completely legitimate business proposition. We will pay you X amount on top of what we already paid for the TV rights to not release the next book until the show catches up.

So the theory is that HBO would pay Martin to not release book 6 until after season 6 had already aired? IMO that is essentially giving up ownership of the series. If I were Martin I would never agree to that. I think he is already making more money than he ever dreamed of, so I doubt the money would sway him.

If the theory is that HBO would pay Martin to not release book 6 until just before season 6 airs, then I think that's more likely but not worth much money from HBO's perspective. Viewership may drive readership, but I don't think it really works the other way round. Readers are already watching. I don't see what HBO gains.

Not to be argumentative. I'm no marketing genius or anything.

Any other book readers concerned that the simplification of the plot for TV audiences will result in further-simplified "conclusions" to many of our favorite plotlines in the books? Being a book-reader first, part of what I love is trying to figure out who is/isn't/will be important to the story later down the road. We lose a lot of that nuance in the show because many of those who are neither important now nor in the future have just been given the axe entirely in the show. In that way, the show can create "plot spoilers" for the books simply by omitting certain details that we no longer have to wonder about.

I try not to look at it this way and to just view the books and show as different works. IMO it's impossible to perfectly translate a work from one medium into another, so viewing them as different works and just trying to watch the show from the perspective of someone who hasn't read the books is really the only way. If you look at the show that way, as an adaptation rather than a visualization of Martin's books, then it actually becomes fun to look for the little inconsistencies, and you gain new insights into the books.

As for whether the show creates plot spoilers, I always assume that hasn't happened. I mean, the show producers know where Martin is going and have even been told how the series ends precisely because they don't want to eliminate or streamline anything that might be important. So I always assume anything they eliminate wasn't important enough for me to worry about in the first place.

Also, even when I've felt like a potentially significant omission has been made, I've ended up concluding on second thought that it isn't that important after all.

For instance, some book readers thought that the elimination of Strong Belwas from the show was important. I thought so too at first, but now I think that it isn't necessarily important at all ... it just means that if he does anything important down the road in the books, another character will do it in the show. He wasn't a fully-developed-enough character that that difference would really matter. Just one example.

 

[gkIrish]

So the theory is that HBO would pay Martin to not release book 6 until after season 6 had already aired? IMO that is essentially giving up ownership of the series. If I were Martin I would never agree to that. I think he is already making more money than he ever dreamed of, so I doubt the money would sway him.

If the theory is that HBO would pay Martin to not release book 6 until just before season 6 airs, then I think that's more likely but not worth much money from HBO's perspective. Viewership may drive readership, but I don't think it really works the other way round. Readers are already watching. I don't see what HBO gains.

Not to be argumentative. I'm no marketing genius or anything.

Is Season 6 the presumed season of tWoW? If so, here's how I envision the timeline:

Season 5 Ends
Winds of Winter released around Christmas
Season 6 (covers half the book)
Season 7 (other half)
Dream of Spring released
movies.

 

[gkIrish]

Man ruins Game of Thrones with series of novels full of spoilers

 

[GATTACA!]

There were lots of problems with splitting the final Harry Potter book into two separate movies. So we're going to try to split A Dream of Spring into three?

Im just going off of what has been reported. It's possible that with the foreknowledge of this arrangement, while unpopular, GRRM writes the final book with the 3 movie arrangement in mind.

Is Season 6 the presumed season of tWoW? If so, here's how I envision the timeline:

Season 5 Ends
Winds of Winter released around Christmas
Season 6 (covers half the book)
Season 7 (other half)
Dream of Spring released
movies.

No we are already a season of the show behind the books with book 3 being split into two seasons. Theoretically they could catch up by making books 4 & 5 into one season. I think thats unlikely though since they will probably want to give GRRM as much time as possible.

 

[IrishLion]

Wait, is there actually some form of theater release being rumored?

I was just being facetious above when I talked about three feature films and a 4,500 page draft of "Dream of Spring." I thought the insane page length was the tell lol.