Freeh Report

[Whiskeyjack]

In other news, PSU has 5 highly touted recruits currently committed. Why remain committed to PSU when the DoE, B1G, and/or NCAA are likely to crush PSU on multiple fronts?

I understand loyalty, up to a point, but these kids' futures are at stake. You've gotta think recruiting is going to take a big step backwards for them now.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I agree with phgreek. Unless there is some strong evidence that JoePa was orchestrating the PSU response over the objections of the top administrators, it's hard to argue lack of institutional control. The closest indicator is that Curly's recommendation pertaining to the 2001 event changed after talking things over with JoePa. Did JoePa coerce Curly or did he simply give his advice? Unless Curly, Schultz and Spanier come out and say JoePa was in control, then I think it's unlikely that the NCAA drops the hammer.

Even if the NCAA were to drop the hammer, I don't think we will ever see the death penalty again.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I disagree with the notion that the NCAA won't be able to crush PSU based on a technicality relating to "LOIC" and a need for some perceived competitive advantage. Charles Robinson, a Yahoo! sports investigative reporter, is one of the most knowledgeable commentators I know of regarding NCAA violations/ penalties. Here are some of his tweets from today...

@CharlesRobinson:

The Freeh report's criticisms of Penn State's compliance structure provides footing for a major investigation by the NCAA into PSU athletics

Lack of centralized compliance + criminal concealment = more than enough for the NCAA to dig into Penn State with every available shovel.

Everything is offically in play now for Penn State. This report opens the door for all manner of sanctioning - criminal, civil & NCAA alike.

NCAA will open or decline to open an investigation into Penn State based on PSU's response to the 4 questions in this: LINK

I agree. RT @JayHorrey It seems that those questions were answered this morning and not in a very good way for PSU.

There are also several credible commentators speculating that the DoE may come down harder on PSU than the NCAA. There may not be a PSU at all when all is said and done.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

@mbucknerlaw:

Freeh Report does demonstrate Penn St exhibited a lack of institutional control as it is generally understood and defined.

NCAA lawyer.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

CBS's Matt Hinton has thus far produced the best summary of today's revelations. You can read it here. For those concerned about drawing a line directly from Paterno to LOIC, here's a quote from the Freeh Report:

The only known, intervening factor between the decision made on February 25, 2001, by Messrs. Spanier, Curley and Schulz to report the incident to the Department of Public Welfare, and then agreeing not to do so on February 27th, was Mr. Paterno's February 26th conversation with Mr. Curley.

 

[ab2cmiller]

CBS's Matt Hinton has thus far produced the best summary of today's revelations. You can read it here. For those concerned about drawing a line directly from Paterno to LOIC, here's a quote from the Freeh Report:

I agree, it's the most compelling piece of info to indicate a potential LOIC. The question is, if that's the only piece of evidence, is that enough to find LOIC? Is it enough for the NCAA to do their own investigation? I would say yes. If the NCAA doesn't find any additional evidence, I don't think that's enough to site LOIC. It's logical but it's also speculation. Unfortunately, we will probably never know what was discussed between JoePa and Curly and why Curly changed his mind.

 

[phgreek]

I tried to say Paterno had nothing to do with it along with some others when this first broke. Having grown up in PA, even being an ND fan, I always had respect and admiration for my in-state institution. JoePa was at the forefront of a lot of good in the state, so the lack hard evidence linked to him simply made me think they were focusing on the wrong person trying to drag his great name trough the mud. Having seen this evolve I've become sickened with JoePa and his involvement in this. I no longer feel sorry for him, or any sort of admiration. I truly think this is just an indictment of the entire college sports culture when the integrity of "one of the best" is destroyed because of a football program. He was held up as an example, and he was part of the problem all along. I'm shocked and appalled at what State did and they deserve everything they get. JoePa makes me sick and this will, rightfully, be what he's remembered for.

Same boat here...PA raised ND fan. Good men do bad sometimes...Bad men do good sometimes. We all seem to grasp that.

The horrific and ongoing nature of the crime, and what seems to be bits and pieces of info that make it hard to believe Joe didn't know about this BEFORE McQeery's fatefull visit to the locker room...and what happened after McQueery...well its now at least as easy to argue "Bad guy" as "Good guy".

I've been saddened by the recent information that seems to make it clear Joe knew what he was doing, and conspired to cover up crimes against children to protect his legacy, and PSU football. He clearly was not a doddling old man incapable of processing what happened if he conspired to cover it up...just can't have it both ways.

 

[woolybug25]

Has a losing program ever been nailed? (more of a whack on the NCAA than an arguement)

Yes, and again, cheating is cheating. Regardless of whether a team reaped the benefits. We don't let bank robbers off the hook if they dont get the loot, so why would the NCAA? Here are a list of some bad teams that got sanctioned.

- Arizona State 2005-2007
- Ball State 2007-2009
- Arkansas State 2011-2012
- Baylor 2005-2009
- Buffalo 1970
- Central Florida 2010-2011

I could go on an on, but i'm sure you get the point.

I get what you are saying. My point is the tie is to NCAA rules. Institutional control may be broad and sweeping language, but as of now, I don't recall anyone ever getting nailed for activity that wasn't a violation of NCAA rules...those rules appear to me to be based on fairness/advantage. For instance, playing grab *** at Colorado with the female kicker...were there NCAA violations/sanctions levied for that activity, or even an investigation? (far less of a crime, but speaks to the point). Many Crimes happen that coaches do not report to the NCAA. Sometimes there are a number of them...those crimes seem to be used to show lack of institutional control if a violation of NCAA rules is being looked at, but on their own...never.

There were no charges filed in the CU rape case and the Barnett was suspended for his comments regarding it. This was one of the many reasons the NCAA started looking into their program, which was later sanctioned for several NCAA recruiting violations.

Here is what the NCAA said to the Sun Times regarding sanctions for unethical behavior:

" NCAA president Mark Emmert detailed the accusations clearly in the letter. The NCAA is examining Penn State for a lack of institutional control and examining current and former administrators and coaches for unethical conduct. These two infractions are often pressed by the NCAA but have never been cited in cases involving criminal acts. Former Penn State athletic director Tim Curley and former vice president Gary Schultz face charges of perjury and failure to report suspected child abuse.

Less than a year ago, the NCAA considered it unethical behavior and punished Ohio State when head football coach Jim Tressel failed to disclose knowledge of accusations that two players had sold personal memorabilia to the owner of a tattoo parlor. By any measure, the alleged failure to report sexual abuse by a former assistant coach at athletic facilities is a more serious offense."

"PSU may have experienced some benefit for the cover-up, but the lack of control itself did not help Penn State Football."

I recognize the cover-up as the benefit...but is that lack of institutional control over the football program...maybe it is if someone can prove the cover up came from Joe in order to tie up a recruit...there is some inuendo out there he knew, but until there is a Rules violation tied to it...thats a tough call.

Look I am fine with the NCAA doing whatever they want...Not even saying they wouldn't be justified...just saying I think it is a reach for them based on what they've done prior...I think it would be unprecedented...at least to my knowledge. I also think the Death penalty would be unlikely, if for no other reason than they are already reaching beyond the norm of their scope.

It may not have added value, but it certainly protected it. If they would have came out and been caught up in a sex abuse scandal, it could have not only tarnished the football program but hurt recruiting. Currently, they can tell recruits that it was something that happened in the past and that no one currently there were part of it. That would not have been the case if they would have reported it when it happened. All of the people that are now no longer part of the university would have remained, including JoPa.

 

[IrishLax]

This is an atomic f*cking bomb dropped on Penn State. Isn't it odd to think that the family of Joe Paterno is probably relieved he is not alive for this? It would be 100x worse for them all if good 'ol JoePa had been alive during this whole thing.

The program probably deserves the death penalty. Joe Paterno is Penn State football, right? Isn't that what everyone has said for years and years when he was some "saint"? That means Penn State foot = a criminal cesspool.

All in all, I just hope they get some punishment as a deterrent to other programs doing massive criminal coverups.

 

[ab2cmiller]

This is an atomic f*cking bomb dropped on Penn State. Isn't it odd to think that the family of Joe Paterno is probably relieved he is not alive for this? It would be 100x worse for them all if good 'ol JoePa had been alive during this whole thing.

The program probably deserves the death penalty. Joe Paterno is Penn State football, right? Isn't that what everyone has said for years and years when he was some "saint"? That means Penn State foot = a criminal cesspool.

All in all, I just hope they get some punishment as a deterrent to other programs doing massive criminal coverups.

Believe me, even if the NCAA does nothing, I'm confident what has already happened to PSU and the bad press, effect on academic reputation, not to mention the millions and millions of dollars that will be paid in civil suits, is more then enough to be an effective deterrent. I guarantee that every school's BOT's is taking notes as we speak to make sure that the same thing doesn't happen to their insititutions and to ensure that as a member of the BOT that they minimize any personal liability.

 

[ab2cmiller]

@mbucknerlaw:

Quote:
Freeh Report does demonstrate Penn St exhibited a lack of institutional control as it is generally understood and defined.


NCAA lawyer.

Series of tweets or retweets at @mbucknerlaw, the same one you previously quoted. I guess he's trying to differentiate. In his tweets he's saying that it does indicate a LOIC as generally understood as a general term. As it pertains to the NCAA he's saying it doesn't seem to fit as it pertains to the NCAA manual.

Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

@KYBoyNTideville Not condoning conduct of PSU, merely explaining my view on the extent of existing NCAA rules.
View conversation

2h Buckner Law Firm Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

@rineer07 Could question--if it violates NCAA recruiting legislation, then the NCAA staff should review.
View conversation

2h Buckner Law Firm Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

@BAsken8 First tweet about general organizational definition of institutional control--not NCAA definition of control in its manual.
View conversation

2h Buckner Law Firm Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

Of course, if NCAA determines PSU violated established rules during period, then it could open up a lack of institutional control violation.
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2h Buckner Law Firm Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

For example, taking street drugs is criminal and NCAA violation, but sexual assault is criminal act but not addressed in NCAA Manual.
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2h Buckner Law Firm Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

Lack of institutional control must have nexus with underlying violations of NCAA rules.
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2h Buckner Law Firm Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

NCAA could set new precedent with PSU case, but member schools should pass expanded institutional control rule to cover this conduct.
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3h Buckner Law Firm Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

Historically, NCAA stepped in cases involving criminal violations only when it is directly tied to an infractions of NCAA rules--see Baylor.
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3h Buckner Law Firm Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

The NCAA Manual definition of institutional control does not address the type of activity (or non-activity) seen in the Penn State case.
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3h Buckner Law Firm Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw

The Freeh Report does demonstrate Penn State exhibited a lack of institutional control as it is generally understood and defined.
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3h Joe Schad Joe Schad ‏@schadjoe

NCAA expert attorney Michael Buckner read Freeh Report and said it does not show lack of institutional control as defined by NCAA Manual

 

[phgreek]

I disagree with the notion that the NCAA won't be able to crush PSU based on a technicality relating to "LOIC" and a need for some perceived competitive advantage. Charles Robinson, a Yahoo! sports investigative reporter, is one of the most knowledgeable commentators I know of regarding NCAA violations/ penalties. Here are some of his tweets from today...

@CharlesRobinson:



There are also several credible commentators speculating that the DoE may come down harder on PSU than the NCAA. There may not be a PSU at all when all is said and done.

can't speak for anyone else...but, I didn't say they wouldn't be able to...said it is new territory, and because of that I doubt they'd Kill the program when they are already reaching beyond anything they've done before, that I know of.

Also, experts on the topic are human, and like anyone have an opinion or outcome they'd like to see. In some cases the press is attempting to put pressure on the NCAA based on their view...in some cases painting the logic for the NCAA to take one action or another...that much is clear

...right or wrong, I don't see PSU being "killed" by the DoE, nor the football program being "killed" by the NCAA.

I do think the NCAA is going to do something...and whatever that is...its groundbreaking.

The DoE...there is some potential for some wrath here, even though I can't figure what it would be. DoE is looking for a reason to be alive these days...this could be it on a silver platter, so to speak. Could turn ugly and politcal real fast because destroying the PSU institution has far reaching effects in the State...It would turn into a political crap storm that would overshadow the child victims, and that makes everyone look bad. In the end, I think the DoE does an investigation and goes to sleep. I do see alot of criminal and civil issues coming out of it...a decade of that kind of stuff is what I see coming...

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

Jay Paterno will speak to Espn at this moment.

 

[ND NYC]

I agree, it's the most compelling piece of info to indicate a potential LOIC. The question is, if that's the only piece of evidence, is that enough to find LOIC? Is it enough for the NCAA to do their own investigation? I would say yes. If the NCAA doesn't find any additional evidence, I don't think that's enough to site LOIC. It's logical but it's also speculation. Unfortunately, we will probably never know what was discussed between JoePa and Curly and why Curly changed his mind.

we know damn well what was said:

Curly: Joe we might have to take this thing to the authorities...

Paterno: no way in hell you are! and destroy everything ive created out here for the last 60 years! you will do nothing Curly.

 

[CTIDANDREW]

I tried to say Paterno had nothing to do with it along with some others when this first broke. Having grown up in PA, even being an ND fan, I always had respect and admiration for my in-state institution. JoePa was at the forefront of a lot of good in the state, so the lack hard evidence linked to him simply made me think they were focusing on the wrong person trying to drag his great name trough the mud. Having seen this evolve I've become sickened with JoePa and his involvement in this. I no longer feel sorry for him, or any sort of admiration. I truly think this is just an indictment of the entire college sports culture when the integrity of "one of the best" is destroyed because of a football program. He was held up as an example, and he was part of the problem all along. I'm shocked and appalled at what State did and they deserve everything they get. JoePa makes me sick and this will, rightfully, be what he's remembered for.

I know we haven't seen eye to eye on European footballing matters. But I still very much respect your opinion and seeing that you grew up in PA like myself. What do you think a Death Penalty to the football program would do the state? I myself think it would be terrible. I know countless business just in my town alone that thrive off of PSU Saturday's, and my town is over 100 miles south of Happy Valley. If anyone wants to jump in i'd love to hear anyone's opinion? SMU im sure had a large fan base(I'm to young to really remember), but they're just one of the countless teams in Texas. Pennsylvania is PSU football, I just can't imagine Saturday's in the fall without it and im not even a fan.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I know we haven't seen eye to eye on European footballing matters. But I still very much respect your opinion and seeing that you grew up in PA like myself. What do you think a Death Penalty to the football program would do the state? I myself think it would be terrible. I know countless business just in my town alone that thrive off of PSU Saturday's, and my town is over 100 miles south of Happy Valley. If anyone wants to jump in i'd love to hear anyone's opinion? SMU im sure had a large fan base(I'm to young to really remember), but they're just one of the countless teams in Texas. Pennsylvania is PSU football, I just can't imagine Saturday's in the fall without it and im not even a fan.

Should we categorically exempt serial rapists from harsh criminal penalties when they have a large family of dependents? "Think of his kids!"

 

[AdmiralBackhand]

Should we categorically exempt serial rapists from harsh criminal penalties when they have a large family of dependents? Think of the kids!

What is sad is he is still drawing a pension.

 

[BobD]

In other news, PSU has 5 highly touted recruits currently committed. Why remain committed to PSU when the DoE, B1G, and/or NCAA are likely to crush PSU on multiple fronts?

I understand loyalty, up to a point, but these kids' futures are at stake. You've gotta think recruiting is going to take a big step backwards for them now.

I can't see how anyone could stay committed after this report.

Anyone here know whats being said on their (PSU)sites?

 

[ND NYC]

What is sad is he is still drawing a pension.

agree.

i read/heard somewhere that the sentencing judge can fine him and that he could/might fine him the amount of the pension...will try and find link to that.

those fines in essence, would go back to the state (from whence they came)

 

[ND NYC]

Jay Paterno will speak to Espn at this moment.

what did he say?

 

[notredomer23]

 

[ab2cmiller]

I can't see how anyone could stay committed after this report.

Anyone here know whats being said on their (PSU)sites?

From what I read, their is a wide variety of responses. Most now think less of JoePa as it has become more clear that he did in fact know about the 1998 incident, which means Joe lied when he claimed he didn't know anything about it. There have been some that have gone so far as claiming they are getting rid of their autographed memorabilia from Joe, while their somehow still seems to be a few holdouts that are sticking with Joe claiming the investigation was flawed and offering up other excuses.

 

[irishtrain]

This is breaking news? Many of us spoke about this being a case of selfishness, blind ambition to keep a job, and break records months ago. Sometimes I dont understand media at all-a child could have determined this months ago. Paterno was a pretty good football coach and just leave it at that-anything more and he becomes a crusty old man who was afraid to step up because of his legacy and job. Anybody who hangs on that long is not in a mental or emotional healthy state.

 

[phgreek]

Yes, and again, cheating is cheating. Regardless of whether a team reaped the benefits. We don't let bank robbers off the hook if they dont get the loot, so why would the NCAA? Here are a list of some bad teams that got sanctioned.

- Arizona State 2005-2007
- Ball State 2007-2009
- Arkansas State 2011-2012
- Baylor 2005-2009
- Buffalo 1970
- Central Florida 2010-2011

I could go on an on, but i'm sure you get the point.
.

agree cheating is cheating...I was saying I doubted NCAA resources are generally deployed to look at losing programs...I see you cited a couple...I'll take your word for it.

There were no charges filed in the CU rape case and the Barnett was suspended for his comments regarding it. This was one of the many reasons the NCAA started looking into their program, which was later sanctioned for several NCAA recruiting violations. .

sure...but the supposed act, in and of itself drew no sanctions...probably not the best example...pick any Florida crime...those did not draw sanctions...maybe some attention, but ultimately santions are related to NCAA infractions...not crimes.

Here is what the NCAA said to the Sun Times regarding sanctions for unethical behavior:

" NCAA president Mark Emmert detailed the accusations clearly in the letter. The NCAA is examining Penn State for a lack of institutional control and examining current and former administrators and coaches for unethical conduct. These two infractions are often pressed by the NCAA but have never been cited in cases involving criminal acts. Former Penn State athletic director Tim Curley and former vice president Gary Schultz face charges of perjury and failure to report suspected child abuse.

Less than a year ago, the NCAA considered it unethical behavior and punished Ohio State when head football coach Jim Tressel failed to disclose knowledge of accusations that two players had sold personal memorabilia to the owner of a tattoo parlor. By any measure, the alleged failure to report sexual abuse by a former assistant coach at athletic facilities is a more serious offense.".

there ya go...this is new turf

It may not have added value, but it certainly protected it. If they would have came out and been caught up in a sex abuse scandal, it could have not only tarnished the football program but hurt recruiting. Currently, they can tell recruits that it was something that happened in the past and that no one currently there were part of it. That would not have been the case if they would have reported it when it happened. All of the people that are now no longer part of the university would have remained, including JoPa.

yea...I see that, and the cover-up is an issue...in light of the Sun times stuff you included, I'd say the NCAA isn't looking for a recruiting smoking gun, or other overt rules violation...the cover-up is enough, so to speak. The Ohio state thing was indeed a cover-up...of an infraction...PSU is the coverup of a crime...sure PSU is worse...but NCAA pushing strictly ethics w/o an NCAA violation is...new turf. As such, it is a stretch beyond what they'd done previously. As such I think PSU football remains...albeit beat up, and diminished, and likely sanctioned in some way.

 

[irish1958]

I wonder what Cardinal Law is doing tonight in his diggs in Rome. Probably saying a prayer for Mr. Sandusky. (There but for the Grace of the Pope, go I)

 

[greyhammer90]

I pray that if ANYTHING happens that is even close to being this disgusting at ND I will have the good sense to drop my support of the program and the coaches. Reading Penn State boards and hearing the excuses and rationalization of their fans make me sick to my stomach. If you are a Penn State fan, I understand how difficult it must be to admit this, but Joe Paterno allowed the rape of children to continue for years. He must be scrubbed from the history of the program. As impossible as that may seem, it is the only way to salvage the morality of program.

 

[Emcee77]

I pray that if ANYTHING happens that is even close to being this disgusting at ND I will have the good sense to drop my support of the program and the coaches. Reading Penn State boards and hearing the excuses and rationalization of their fans make me sick to my stomach. If you are a Penn State fan, I understand how difficult it must be to admit this, but Joe Paterno allowed the rape of children to continue for years. He must be scrubbed from the history of the program. As impossible as that may seem, it is the only way to salvage the morality of program.

Yep. I was never a fan, but in general I try hard not to rush to judgment, and I tried REALLY hard not to rush to judge JoePa, considering that for forty years he had undeniably done so many good things in the Penn State community. I just couldn't believe that he could really connive at child rape or at child abuse. Well, I don't know what you can say for him any more. It is now clear that he and his cronies in the PSU administration had a complete lack of concern for the welfare of children they knew were being abused. If he were alive, JoePa would probably repeat his line that he comes from a different generation and didn't know anything about "rape and a man." Certainly it's true that there is a greater awareness of child abuse today then there was when JoePa was coming up. BUT COME ON. He apparently actively persuaded Curley and Spanier NOT to report Sandusky for crimes against children. Absolutely inexcusable.

I suppose the best that can be said is that JoePa was appallingly ignorant, if he thought that merely offering Sandusky counseling, telling him not to bring kids to PSU and letting him off with a warning after the 2001 incident was enough. The worst child abusers just can't help themselves. JoePa KNEW (and lied about knowing) that Sandusky had been accused of this kind of thing at least once before (in 1998). Sandusky needed to be in jail to incapacitate him from harming other children; more children were harmed because JoePa either didn't care or was willfully ignorant of that fact. I think I'm being as sympathetic to JoePa as I can be right now (which is infinitely more than he deserves) and there is no way around it ... what he did is sickening.

So I'm with you, Hammer. I don't get where these PSU fans get off. Looking at it in the light most favorable to JoePa ... he still looks super $hitty. Stop trying to apologize for him. It can't be done.

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

PSU Fans are so ingnorant. I think giving the death penalty would be a message and also if the NCAA doesnt do anything then they will have no credability for future sanctions.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Perused a little of the findings, Chapter 3: Sandusky's retirement. Officials of Penn State University knew what he did was wrong, that was the reason for the forced retirement. (He knew he wasn't going to be picked as heir apparent over a year earlier.) His buyout was hush money. He was given extra money, though not the amount he asked, with the knowlege he was going to work with adolescents. He was not stopped. This all had board approval, in addition to the top four, two VP's, Paterno, and university president. It couldn't be worse.
__________________

Sorry to quote myself, but I thought I would just bring it over from the Sandusky Trial thread and join you. To summarize, everything had athletic department aproval and involvement and everything was sanctioned by the PSU board. PSU is now officially a target for everybody. I mean everybody, every victim, US Atty, for Dept of Ed, NCAA, everybody.

 

[mgriff]

Being from PA I have a bunch of Penn St. alumni on my wall crying about letting him rest in peace and all of this being blown out of proportion. I think I've posted on every status with a slap of reality.

What they need to do is acknowledge that high ranking members of the university acted inappropriately, including Joe Paterno, admit that it was unacceptable, hold everyone involved accountable, strive forward to repair as much damage as they can, and restore the university to its previous high standing. Now, the whole institution is coming under fire, which I think is far worse than Paterno's reputation, which he clearly tarnished himself. It was/is a great academic institution, and it was made as such by the terrific people of the university, not some figurehead or sports team. That's pretty much my view and what I've told my State friends. After I call them for their bleeding heart bullshit of course.