Freeh Report

[Whiskeyjack]

What they need to do is acknowledge that high ranking members of the university acted inappropriately, including Joe Paterno, admit that it was unacceptable, hold everyone involved accountable, strive forward to repair as much damage as they can, and restore the university to its previous high standing. It was/is a great academic institution, and it was made as such by the terrific people of the university, not some figurehead or sports team. That's pretty much my view and what I've told my State friends. After I call them for their bleeding heart bullshit of course.

Justice won't be served by simply firing and/or jailing those directly responsible.

 

[mgriff]

Justice won't be served by simply firing and/or jailing those directly responsible.

You can't fully serve justice in these scenarios. That's just a fact of cases like this. PSU, its students, and alumni, need to acknowledge all of the wrong, most notably including Paterno, because then they can work on repairing the previously illustrious reputation of the institution. That's my view.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You can't fully serve justice in these scenarios. That's just a fact of cases like this. PSU, its students, and alumni, need to acknowledge all of the wrong, most notably including Paterno, because then they can work on repairing the previously illustrious reputation of the institution. That's my view.

This tragedy was made possible by a culture in which a successful football coach was deified by a school's fanbase. This happened at PSU, but it could have happened at many other schools with similarly misplaced priorities. Every PSU fan who continues apologizing for Paterno bears some small share of responsibility for this, because it's exactly that mindset that enabled this behavior in the first place.

From a criminal justice standpoint, I agree that only those directly responsible should be fired and jailed. But from a broader moral perspective, PSU as an institution needs to pay dearly for this. The culture involved, just as in some corners of the Catholic Church, is as much to blame as the individuals.

 

[mgriff]

This tragedy was made possible by a culture in which a successful football coach was deified by a school's fanbase. This happened at PSU, but it could have happened at many other schools with similarly misplaced priorities. Every PSU fan who continues apologizing for Paterno bears some small share of responsibility for this, because it's exactly that mindset that enabled this behavior in the first place.

From a criminal justice standpoint, I agree that only those directly responsible should be fired and jailed. But from a broader moral perspective, PSU as an institution needs to pay dearly for this. The culture involved, just as in some corners of the Catholic Church, is as much to blame as the individuals.

Any number of other schools? Wouldn't America be more apt? Our entire culture glorifies sport and anyone with success seems to have a different set of rules. You think he thought he could get away with it because he was Joe Paterno? That's fine, but I fail to see how Penn St. alumni who loved JoePa because of all the good he did, which is washed now, were duped by a man who everyone in the nation thought was a pillar of integrity. I just don't think that the Penn St. students and alumni who realize that JoePa was wrong, and reprehensible, have to share blame in the rape of children. That's kind of a stretch.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Any number of other schools? Wouldn't America be more apt? Our entire culture glorifies sport and anyone with success seems to have a different set of rules. You think he thought he could get away with it because he was Joe Paterno? That's fine, but I fail to see how Penn St. alumni who loved JoePa because of all the good he did, which is washed now, were duped by a man who everyone in the nation thought was a pillar of integrity. I just don't think that the Penn St. students and alumni who realize that JoePa was wrong, and reprehensible, have to share blame in the rape of children. That's kind of a stretch.

It's a question of setting penalties to adequately deter this type of behavior in the future. When a corporation skirts important regulations and gets caught, the Feds don't say, "Ah well, they fired the individuals directly responsible, and took a PR hit, so we'll let 'em skate." They (ideally) fine the bejesus of that corporation to keep the others in line, because it's the only way to effectively police this type of stuff.

Same situation applies here. A few firings/ jail sentences aren't enough to force other institutions with similar cultures from examining themselves and proactively making changes to avoid a similar fate; an example needs to be made.

PSU flaunted the Clery Act while continuing to accept hundreds of millions in federal dollars during the 13+ years this cover-up occurred. PSU covered this up precisely to protect its brand, particularly of its football team. And the B1G has suffered indirectly, as one of its foremost members, which allegedly embodied the conference's ideals of tradition, integrity and excellence, has instead been exposed as anything but.

For those reasons, the DOE, NCAA, and B1G each have their own compelling reasons for dropping the hammer on PSU. I sincerely hope they do, because nothing will change if we accept the "win at all costs" mindset as a given.

 

[mgriff]

I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just posted. I'm saying what truly made Penn St. great were the people of the University, not Joe Paterno or a football team. They are the ones who lived the values, worked hard, and made Penn St a great academic institution with the work they put in during their studies, and then after they joined the workforce. I'm saying those are the people who need to realize that it is they who make Penn St. Penn St., not the fallen idol that was JoePa. They are the ones who built it up and need to do so again, to take the focus off the figureheads and get it back to where it belongs. Whatever punishment they get won't be enough.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

can't speak for anyone else...but, I didn't say they wouldn't be able to...said it is new territory, and because of that I doubt they'd Kill the program when they are already reaching beyond anything they've done before, that I know of.

Also, experts on the topic are human, and like anyone have an opinion or outcome they'd like to see. In some cases the press is attempting to put pressure on the NCAA based on their view...in some cases painting the logic for the NCAA to take one action or another...that much is clear

...right or wrong, I don't see PSU being "killed" by the DoE, nor the football program being "killed" by the NCAA.

I do think the NCAA is going to do something...and whatever that is...its groundbreaking.

The DoE...there is some potential for some wrath here, even though I can't figure what it would be. DoE is looking for a reason to be alive these days...this could be it on a silver platter, so to speak. Could turn ugly and politcal real fast because destroying the PSU institution has far reaching effects in the State...It would turn into a political crap storm that would overshadow the child victims, and that makes everyone look bad. In the end, I think the DoE does an investigation and goes to sleep. I do see alot of criminal and civil issues coming out of it...a decade of that kind of stuff is what I see coming...

I will say it again. There are a set of regulations attached to Federal monies distributed to colleges and universities. These require immediate reporting of a wide range of abusive actions including laws requiring universities to disclose criminal offenses that occur on campus. Congress has mandated incredibly sever punishments for non-compliance. Since it is the Department of Education, the investigative agent is the US Attorney. When you have the US Attorney investigating, there are plenty of FBI agents with their feet on the ground. These people are very effective at what they do; ask John Gotti, Whitey Bolger, etc. The NCAA is the least of PSU's worries.

The legal action the US Attorney is taking could end PSU completely, or as we know it today. Why do you think they brought Louis Freeh in and allowed him to come up with the findings he did? They know what they face. You forget the whole side story of the provost that was run out of town for assuming that she had the ability to discipline student athletes per the university policy. There is incredible suport outside of the Sandusky incidents themselves, that this university totally ran amok.

 

[ND NYC]

"Joe Lied..."

 

[ND NYC]

I will say it again. There are a set of regulations attached to Federal monies distributed to colleges and universities. These require immediate reporting of a wide range of abusive actions including laws requiring universities to disclose criminal offenses that occur on campus. Congress has mandated incredibly sever punishments for non-compliance. Since it is the Department of Education, the investigative agent is the US Attorney. When you have the US Attorney investigating, there are plenty of FBI agents with their feet on the ground. These people are very effective at what they do; ask John Gotti, Whitey Bolger, etc. The NCAA is the least of PSU's worries.

The legal action the US Attorney is taking could end PSU completely, or as we know it today. Why do you think they brought Louis Freeh in and allowed him to come up with the findings he did? They know what they face. You forget the whole side story of the provost that was run out of town for assuming that she had the ability to discipline student athletes per the university policy. There is incredible suport outside of the Sandusky incidents themselves, that this university totally ran amok.

understand your point but those 2 are bad examples Bog.
Gotti got off 4 times, it was only when Gravano flipped did they nail him...and Bulger was on the lam for 18 years without being found.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

"Joe Lied..."

And mothers cried.

understand your point but those 2 are bad examples Bog.
Gotti got off 4 times, it was only when Gravano flipped did they nail him...and Bulger was on the lam for 18 years without being found.

With all respect, not from my perspective.

From the time the US Attorney was on them, their life was hell. Their income dried up. Did you hear what you said? Four trials before he was institutionalized in Marion and died on a concrete cot. And Whitey, whose family ran things about Boston, was forced out of his business, when on the lam, and was finally caught 18 years later[/U ]. These guys are relentless! They follow the rules (US Attorney). Their actions are rarely if ever reversible in the appellate courts. They go up against barbarians every day, and they win. They took the Russian mob apart, and the list goes on.

It doesn't really matter what example I use. The US ATTY is about 10000 and 0; and in this case their opponent is a bunch of sniveling cowards.

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

I think Penn State needs to get the death penalty.

 

[phgreek]

I will say it again. There are a set of regulations attached to Federal monies distributed to colleges and universities. These require immediate reporting of a wide range of abusive actions including laws requiring universities to disclose criminal offenses that occur on campus. Congress has mandated incredibly sever punishments for non-compliance. Since it is the Department of Education, the investigative agent is the US Attorney. When you have the US Attorney investigating, there are plenty of FBI agents with their feet on the ground. These people are very effective at what they do; ask John Gotti, Whitey Bolger, etc. The NCAA is the least of PSU's worries.

...ok, all good data, but nothing I said questions how this would be investigated...more what sanctions DoE could levy and how. Generally what has congress mandated?

The legal action the US Attorney is taking could end PSU completely, or as we know it today. Why do you think they brought Louis Freeh in and allowed him to come up with the findings he did? They know what they face. You forget the whole side story of the provost that was run out of town for assuming that she had the ability to discipline student athletes per the university policy. There is incredible suport outside of the Sandusky incidents themselves, that this university totally ran amok.

...ok, but what action is the US attorney taking... I don't question the justification for DoE to do something...I don't question the effectiveness of the investigative folks...I question rather they, DoE, will want to deal with the politics associated with doing something beyond some fines, and possibly heightened scrutiny/reporting...I do wander (out loud) if it is possible for DoE to see this scandal as a potential "reason" for DoE to exist to the extent it does.

In a nut shell, I'm predicting NCAA and DoE do alot less than maybe they could, and alot less than many think they should and/or will. Whatever they do is just fine with me.

...and FYI, I've not let anyone involved "off the hook" here. Have been critical of everyone from Joepa to the detectives who witnessed what Sandusky said in '98. How'd they all fail so epicly. I gave Joe a little space because he was old...but recent findings say he could not be the doddling old man he wanted us to think he was. I'm cool if they Kill the Football program...I'm cool if the school gets slapped around a little...admittedly, I'm not cool with the Feds. doing something that ultimately hurts the State of PA, and her folks because of pressure to do "something". There is a point where overdoing it further victimizes the victims here...and really all I care about is that this is prosecuted such that they, the victims, feel justice was done, and that they do matter, and that they can move on...do any of them want this to "end PSU completely, or as we know it today"? Maybe, but I doubt it. If the victims stay at the center of consideration, whatever happens works for me.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

It's a question of setting penalties to adequately deter this type of behavior in the future. When a corporation skirts important regulations and gets caught, the Feds don't say, "Ah well, they fired the individuals directly responsible, and took a PR hit, so we'll let 'em skate." They (ideally) fine the bejesus of that corporation to keep the others in line, because it's the only way to effectively police this type of stuff.

Same situation applies here. A few firings/ jail sentences aren't enough to force other institutions with similar cultures from examining themselves and proactively making changes to avoid a similar fate; an example needs to be made.

PSU flaunted the Clery Act while continuing to accept hundreds of millions in federal dollars during the 13+ years this cover-up occurred. PSU covered this up precisely to protect its brand, particularly of its football team. And the B1G has suffered indirectly, as one of its foremost members, which allegedly embodied the conference's ideals of tradition, integrity and excellence, has instead been exposed as anything but.

For those reasons, the DOE, NCAA, and B1G each have their own compelling reasons for dropping the hammer on PSU. I sincerely hope they do, because nothing will change if we accept the "win at all costs" mindset as a given.

#Nailedit

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

I feel sorry for PSU fans.
99.9 % of them did nothing wrong and yet they all will suffer for this.
It doesn't compare to the suffering those kids went through and will probably go through the rest of their lives, because of that, somehow the death penalty seems not severe enough.
Make the university donate every cent earned from the football program the last 14 years to abused children.
Then kill the program for 2 years.
This isn't SMU, PSU would survive, just be set back for a decade.


I'm Catholic.
This has been happening in our churches for as long as I remember.
I'm appalled, angry, disgusted, embarrassed, yet still go to church every Sunday.
Maybe since it didn't happen in my actual community it hasn't forced me to take action... I don't know.
I do know that if this happened at Notre Dame it would feel like it happened in my own local parish... I would be devastated to the point of no forgiveness or return.
We'd part ways forever.


This is probably where my feelings of sorrow towards the PSU fans come from... again I don't know.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Here is the quickest read, from Wikipedia. As I understand it this is fairly accurate. But you have to understand, violation of any state law represents in incident. One (isolated-non conspiratorial) murder at Eastern Michigan University resulted in 300k plus in fines. PA state law codifies many of the events on campus as crimes, and with the serious nature of many of the violations, Civil Rights legislation can be used to prosecute on a Federal level, and the piece de le resistance is that conspiracy can now clearly be proven. I watched the FBI take apart a Sherriff’s office and send at least one jailer the Federal Penitentiary for over 10 years, over something far less pervasive.

The Jeanne Clery Disclosure of Campus Security Policy and Campus Crime Statistics Act or Clery Act is a federal statute codified at 20 U.S.C. § 1092(f), with implementing regulations in the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations at 34 C.F.R. 668.46.
The Clery Act requires all colleges and universities that participate in federal financial aid programs to keep and disclose information about crime on and near their respective campuses. Compliance is monitored by the United States Department of Education, which can impose civil penalties, up to $27,500 per violation, against institutions for each infraction and can suspend institutions from participating in federal student financial aid programs.
The law is named for Jeanne Clery, a 19-year-old Lehigh University freshman who was raped and murdered in her campus residence hall in 1986. The backlash against unreported crimes on numerous campuses across the country led to the Jeanne Clery Disclosure of Campus Security Policy and Campus Crime Statistics Act. [1] The Clery Act, signed in 1990, was originally known as the Crime Awareness and Campus Security Act.

Requirements of act

Annual security report
By October 1 of each year, institutions must publish and distribute their Annual Campus Security Report to current and prospective students and employees. Institutions are also allowed to provide notice of the report, a URL if available, and how to obtain a paper copy if desired.
This report is required to provide crime statistics for the prior three years, policy statements regarding various safety and security measures, campus crime prevention program descriptions, and procedures to be followed in the investigation and prosecution of alleged sex offenses.
Crime log
The institution's police department or security departments are required to maintain a public log of all crimes reported to them, or those of which they are made aware. The log is required to have the most recent 60 days' worth of information. Each entry in the log must contain the nature, date, time and general location of each crime and disposition of the complaint, if known. Information in the log older than 60 days must be made available within two business days. Crime logs must be kept for seven years, three years following the publication of the last annual security report.
Timely warnings
The Clery Act requires institutions to give timely warnings of crimes that represent a threat to the safety of students or employees. Institutions are required to publish their policies regarding timely warnings in their Annual Campus Security Report. The institution is only required to notify the community of crimes which are covered by the Clery statistics.
Crime statistics
An institution must keep the most recent three years of crime statistics that occurred: on campus, in institution residential facilities, in noncampus buildings, or on public property. The report must also indicate if any of the reported incidents, or any other crime involving bodily injury, was a "hate crime." The following offenses, as defined by the UCR [2]) are required to be included in the institution's ASR as well as sent to the U.S. Department of Education annually:
• Criminal homicide:
o Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter
o Negligent manslaughter
• Sexual offenses:
o forcible
o nonforcible
• Robbery
• Aggravated assault
• Burglary
• Arson
• Motor vehicle theft
• Arrest and/or disciplinary referrals for
o Liquor-law violations
o Drug-law violations
o Illegal weapons possession
Institutions are required to indicate if any of the crimes, or any other crime involving bodily injury, was a "hate crime".

Penn State University
The U.S. Department of Education is investigating Penn State over the Penn State sex abuse scandal. Their investigation arises from the athletic department's failure to report allegations of sex offenses on campus by a former school official as being a violation of the Act. Former Penn State Defensive Coach Jerry Sandusky has been convicted with sexually abusing several young boys over several years, including incidents on campus

 

[autry_denson]

I apologize if I'm repeating anything here as I haven't read through the whole thread, but 3 quick points that may or may not add to the conversation. I met up w a friend who is an asst coach at the FBS level and he had some interesting tidbits on Penn State and on the thinking of coaches in that position:

1) the main insight is that for coaches at that level, the team and the program become all-consuming. he knows a lot of head coaches who would do absolutely anything to make sure their program is protected - so he was not surprised in the least that Paterno acted the way he did, as difficult as it is for anyone outside the program to understand.

2) this is particularly true b/c Paterno was on the hot seat for much of the early part of the 2000s when a lot of this was going down. PSU was his career and his life, and being fired was a very real possibility at that point. If any of this became public in the early 2000s when his teams were under .500 it would have made it a lot easier for the admin and AD to justify firing him.

3) the folks in Happy Valley still don't quite "get it," from several accounts. They have done things like tear out the locker room where some of this awful, disgusting stuff happened - but as recently as a few months ago they were trying to figure out when would be the best time to rename the stadium in Paterno's honor, for instance. Hopefully this report will awaken some people in that insular town to what actually happened and who was complicit.

 

[Ironman8]

Chilling story on Lavar Arrington coming to grips with "being the candy that helped lure the kids in", specifically regarding one particular victim:

LaVar Arrington on Joe Paterno: ‘I didn’t know the person I thought I did’ | Dr. Saturday - Yahoo! Sports

 

[IrishinTN]

I don't mean to diminish these horrendous acts to money, but when these civil suits start getting filed, you know that is what's going to happen. They already have 12 victims who can (and probably will) file. There are countless more who will come forward to join it. In the end do you think the award given to these victims alone could be enough to destroy Penn State?

I think this will end up being in the tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars. Like I said, I don't mean to only make this about money, but PSU will end up having very heavy damages to pay for what they allowed to happened to these boys (as well they should). Does anyone think that that alone could bring about the demise of Penn State University? Or that coupled with criminal and NCAA actions?

 

[Ironman8]

Wow.

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[Cackalacky]

I have nothing valuable to contribute to what has already been stated above but Penn State is *ucked. They may never recover from this. If they are lucky, they may make it back to SMU status....

 

[woolybug25]

I don't mean to diminish these horrendous acts to money, but when these civil suits start getting filed, you know that is what's going to happen. They already have 12 victims who can (and probably will) file. There are countless more who will come forward to join it. In the end do you think the award given to these victims alone could be enough to destroy Penn State?

I think this will end up being in the tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars. Like I said, I don't mean to only make this about money, but PSU will end up having very heavy damages to pay for what they allowed to happened to these boys (as well they should). Does anyone think that that alone could bring about the demise of Penn State University? Or that coupled with criminal and NCAA actions?

I do, and deservingly so. I hope every victim in this situation sues the university to the fullest extent. I cant think of a bigger slap to the face of the victims than watching PSU cash their $22.6MM Big Ten payout with no repercussions.

Chilling story on Lavar Arrington coming to grips with "being the candy that helped lure the kids in", specifically regarding one particular victim:

LaVar Arrington on Joe Paterno: ‘I didn’t know the person I thought I did’ | Dr. Saturday - Yahoo! Sports

While Lamar seems to be finally coming to grips with what happened, it is unnerving to me that when asked "what should they do", he pretty much just say fire who was involved and move on. He claims to have read the report several times, and if he did, he should realize that it went further than just the big names (Paterno, Sandusky, Curley, etc). For Christ's sakes, they even talk about a janitor that knew this was going on and didn't say anything. Turning their head to any wrong doings of the football program was institutional at PSU. To fire everyone involved would simply be firing every employee at the university, because simply put... we have no idea how many people turned their head in this situation.

 

[IrishinTN]

they even talk about a janitor that knew this was going on and didn't say anything. Turning their head to any wrong doings of the football program was institutional at PSU. To fire everyone involved would simply be firing every employee at the university, because simply put... we have no idea how many people turned their head in this situation.

That's just it, no one did the right thing. They are hailing some of these janitor's who came forward to give info as heroes. They are justifying their silence because "they were worried about their jobs."

Not a single person on that campus who saw or knew (and there are plenty more than just the top four) had the freaking moral courage to stand up and do the right thing. A bunch of cowards whom, if only one had gone to the police, could have made a stand to stop little boys being raped. Not a single frigging one.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Fox Sports' Dan Wolken discusses why Penn State needs to take a break from football.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Another great article, this one from CBS's Bryan Fischer, on why PSU needs the death penalty to heal properly.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Good article Whiskey; it, "Coach as King", is in fact the reason years worth of wins need to be vacated, and JoPOS needs to be wiped from the record books. It just isn't the high ranking officials. It is everybody, down to the janitors. They all did it. Not just McQuerey; as unconcerned as Sandusky was with being caught, how many others do you think there are? 10? 100? We will never know.

Others have brought this up, but I think Ray Gricar probably ran into the wall of silence, knew what was going on, and that he had no ability to stop it, and it ate away at him for seven years. Close to the time he was set to step down as prosecutor, he disappeared. I believe he committed suicide, as his brother before him did; maybe a genetic predisposition and the weight of the Sandusky affair was too much. If that hypothesis holds weight, I pray for him too.

 

[ND NYC]

Good article Whiskey; it, "Coach as King", is in fact the reason years worth of wins need to be vacated, and JoPOS needs to be wiped from the record books. It just isn't the high ranking officials. It is everybody, down to the janitors. They all did it. Not just McQuerey; as unconcerned as Sandusky was with being caught, how many others do you think there are? 10? 100? We will never know.

Others have brought this up, but I think Ray Gricar probably ran into the wall of silence, knew what was going on, and that he had no ability to stop it, and it ate away at him for seven years. Close to the time he was set to step down as prosecutor, he disappeared. I believe he committed suicide, as his brother before him did; maybe a genetic predisposition and the weight of the Sandusky affair was too much. If that hypothesis holds weight, I pray for him too.

too bad they couldnt recover the hard drive off his laptop that was thrown into that river...

 

[ohara831]

College football -- Penn State Nittany Lions earned wrath of NCAA - ESPN

Here is one from Mark Schlabach discussing why PSU needs to be hit hard.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

too bad they couldnt recover the hard drive off his laptop that was thrown into that river...

That is the key; point is maybe they did. Then ditched it again. You know, cleanup.

 

[ohara831]

College football -- Joe Paterno enabled Jerry Sandusky by lying and remaining silent - ESPN

Article is one thing. But watch the Mark May interview. This guy is not happy at all!

 

[phgreek]

Another great article, this one from CBS's Bryan Fischer, on why PSU needs the death penalty to heal properly.

..good reads, some persuasive stuff in them.

Fischer paints a reasonable and compelling argument for the death penalty for 99% of the article...hope, a clean start for future kids, and a new day...and the only way to achieve it is to start over. He thinks the NCAA should kill the program as a cleansing of sorts and a break from the old regime that caused all this. A chance for a new identity. Then he undoes the best sales pitch yet...He reminds us all that no one will ever really get beyond it...

"...'We are Penn State'...No longer will those four words ever mean the same thing again. "

Reality is, the death penalty is one, and only one thing...it is a punishement to send a message. I don't think it could ever be construed as beneficial to the recipient. It is in no way cleansing, and if anything it adds to the stigma of EVRYONE associated with the institution for half a century or so. Not to say it shouldn't be used if needed...but to paint it as anything but what it is...well Fischer couldn't even convince himself without reservation.

I do think the death penalty could serve to help the victims feel like they matter...something sorely needed about now. But, if boched on the PR front like every other thing the NCAA does...well then I'm not so sure that helps. If they can do it in a way that doesn't re-vicitmize the victims, and their investigation brings them to the conclusion that the death penalty is the best thing...go for it. Just don't tell me it is medicine for PSU...its Hemlock, period.

I think the NCAA outcome is still in doubt...but I suspect with the beating drums from the press corps the NCAA will be forced to expedite their process and deliver some conclusion...the sooner that hapens the more likely the death penalty in my opinion.

I don't like the NCAA...never have believed they did a very good job at much of anything...I have reservations with them expanding their scope...still the transgressions are indeed epic, and may indeed call for something extraordinary...I just wish someone else besides the NCAA could be taking extraordinary measures.