Fr Jenkins at the White House

[IrishLax]

That's depressing. Most of our political problems right now boil down to rich people making shitty decisions and no one in power being willing to hold them accountable. And ND is no different apparently. I'd love to hear Jenkins address these stats regarding how the University's mission is served by catering only the very rich.

If people are complaining about ND not being "Catholic enough"... I live a stone's throw away from Georgetown and y'all should see what that "Catholic" school has become...

There is no silver bullet to ND kids having successful families. It's a compounding issue on the fact that ND alums are generally very successful and then ND has always had strong legacy representation. Which makes sense for many reasons, one of which being that Catholic families want to send their kids to the best Catholic university in the world.

Short of making ND alums less successful or intentionally throwing out well qualified legacies who have grades/scores good enough for Ivies, I don't know what the solution is. I also think we shouldn't pretend that $191k a year is "rich" in any major metropolitan area right now... that isn't even enough to buy a starter home in DC. The median family that chart touts as "rich" is renting a 1500 square foot condo or town home working mid-level management or sub-management jobs.

ND already has raised tuition on the very wealthy in order to ensure that more and more money can be funneled to less wealthy families in various forms of financial aid. If anything, the students getting squeezed out right now are in the "middle class" who have much cheaper state school options and that's frankly not going to change. State schools are always going to be the cost effective option relative to private ones.

 

[Rack Em]

That's depressing. Most of our political problems right now boil down to rich people making shitty decisions and no one in power being willing to hold them accountable. And ND is no different apparently. I'd love to hear Jenkins address these stats regarding how the University's mission is served by catering only to the very rich.

Poor people don't donate enough to build new buildings for the rich kids to enjoy.


Fun fact: when I was denied as a senior in high school, my dad called the admissions office to ask what kind of a "donation" could get me admitted. Eventually he got someone to tell him it was at least a 7 figure donation. Both of my parents were state employees in rural Missouri for their entire careers, so there was zero chance they could drop that. But I appreciate that he cared enough to push the issue. I'm glad it didn't happen that way, but I feel that story is telling of how much of a double standard is in place for students of average means vis-a-vis students from wealthy families.

And I had a paper published in law school about how socioeconomic diversity was the real measure of diversity, not racial diversity.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If people are complaining about ND not being "Catholic enough"... I live a stone's throw away from Georgetown and y'all should see what that "Catholic" school has become...

Agreed, but I don't think many movers and shakers at ND see Georgetown as the cautionary tale it should be.

There is no silver bullet to ND kids having successful families. It's a compounding issue on the fact that ND alums are generally very successful and then ND has always had strong legacy representation. Which makes sense for many reasons, one of which being that Catholic families want to send their kids to the best Catholic university in the world.

We already reserve 25% of every incoming class for legacies, which gives them the advantage of a much less competitive applicant pool. It's the general applicant pool that's the problem here based on those linked figures. For our student body to be so skewed toward the wealthy, ND must either be inordinately prioritizing test scores or high SES; though there's a lot of overlap between those two, so it could be both/and.

Deemphasizing Catholicism, the most distinctive part of our identity, to chase wealth, prestige and a higher USN&WR ranking is exactly how you end up like Georgetown.

Short of making ND alums less successful or intentionally throwing out well qualified legacies who have grades/scores good enough for Ivies, I don't know what the solution is. I also think we shouldn't pretend that $191k a year is "rich" in any major metropolitan area right now... that isn't even enough to buy a starter home in DC. The median family that chart touts as "rich" is renting a 1500 square foot condo or town home working mid-level management or sub-management jobs.

Sure, we could adjust that figure for regional differences in cost of living, but there's nowhere in the US where $191k isn't at least comfortably upper-middle class.

ND already has raised tuition on the very wealthy in order to ensure that more and more money can be funneled to less wealthy families in various forms of financial aid. If anything, the students getting squeezed out right now are in the "middle class" who have much cheaper state school options and that's frankly not going to change. State schools are always going to be the cost effective option relative to private ones.

I'd like to see ND lean into its identity as the best Catholic university in the world by prioritizing really Catholic kids. Keep holding 25% of each incoming class for legacies, but for the general applicant pool, look to diversify based on race, region and SES. The Church is going to outlast the GOP, the DNC and the American empire. Hitch your wagon accordingly.

 

[GowerND11]

Poor people don't donate enough to build new buildings for the rich kids to enjoy.


Fun fact: when I was denied as a senior in high school, my dad called the admissions office to ask what kind of a "donation" could get me admitted. Eventually he got someone to tell him it was at least a 7 figure donation. Both of my parents were state employees in rural Missouri for their entire careers, so there was zero chance they could drop that. But I appreciate that he cared enough to push the issue. I'm glad it didn't happen that way, but I feel that story is telling of how much of a double standard is in place for students of average means vis-a-vis students from wealthy families.

And I had a paper published in law school about how socioeconomic diversity was the real measure of diversity, not racial diversity.

Fun fact for your fun fact: I went to Holy Cross my freshman year with dreams of attending ND. I ended up realizing it wasn't the best place for me becoming a teacher, etc. But while I was at Holy Cross, there was another freshman I was acquainted with that was able to transfer into ND in the Spring.

Now, those not familiar with ND's transfer policy, they do not allow Freshmen to transfer in the Spring. He got in because his father donated 7 figures, and all he had to do was reach some GPA threshold.

 

[Rack Em]

Fun fact for your fun fact: I went to Holy Cross my freshman year with dreams of attending ND. I ended up realizing it wasn't the best place for me becoming a teacher, etc. But while I was at Holy Cross, there was another freshman I was acquainted with that was able to transfer into ND in the Spring.

Now, those not familiar with ND's transfer policy, they do not allow Freshmen to transfer in the Spring. He got in because his father donated 7 figures, and all he had to do was reach some GPA threshold.

That is fun. Apparently ND thinks 7 figures is fun.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Tangentially related, but the Vatican's recently released financial statement for 2019 showed it's only worth $4 billion:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Holy See releases consolidation financial statement for 2019, and says that the Vatican as a whole (including Curia, Governorate, Peter’s Pence, IOR, Pension Fund and Foundations), has a net patrimony of about 4,000 million euros. <a href="https://t.co/qth6c1bIXx">https://t.co/qth6c1bIXx</a></p>— Catholic Sat (@CatholicSat) <a href="https://twitter.com/CatholicSat/status/1311715098407456775?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 1, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's less than half of ND's endowment.

 

[Rack Em]

Tangentially related, but the Vatican's recently released financial statement for 2019 showed it's only worth $4 billion:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Holy See releases consolidation financial statement for 2019, and says that the Vatican as a whole (including Curia, Governorate, Peter’s Pence, IOR, Pension Fund and Foundations), has a net patrimony of about 4,000 million euros. <a href="https://t.co/qth6c1bIXx">https://t.co/qth6c1bIXx</a></p>— Catholic Sat (@CatholicSat) <a href="https://twitter.com/CatholicSat/status/1311715098407456775?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 1, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's less than half of ND's endowment.

Paging Scott Malpass. The Pope is on line 2 for you.

 

[SeekNDestroy]

This is going to blow your mind, but ND and Catholicism have always been about social justice.

Jesus Christ said some truly radical stuff for his time, too.

My dad was on campus around this time and there were ALOT of students that complained about the civil rights movement and Father Hesburgh’s involvement.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Paging Scott Malpass. The Pope is on line 2 for you.

He's already been called up to the mothership.

 

[Rack Em]

He's already been called up to the mothership.

Then why is the Vatican fucking around?

 

[RDU Irish]

That's depressing. Most of our political problems right now boil down to rich people making shitty decisions and no one in power being willing to hold them accountable. And ND is no different apparently. I'd love to hear Jenkins address these stats regarding how the University's mission is served by catering only to the very rich.

As much not catering at all to the non-rich as it is catering to the rich. I get going after 1%-ers - that builds endowments and buildings which should feed some unwashed masses in the process.

$110k to qualify for top quartile household is kind of depressing - makes the inability to get below 50th percentile households on campus that much more pathetic. I mean I knew I was well below average economically when I was on campus but I didn't think I was a freaking unicorn.

 

[RDU Irish]

ND also likes to have its "feeder schools" which are almost always private high schools. If you can pay for that you won't be eating up too much "need based" aid.

I don't have a problem with 25% legacies (obviously I am biased NOW) - I think it helps your general sense of school spirit and identity. Give me kids going to their dream school instead of backup to Stanford or Harvard, even if they are a point or two behind on the ACT. Getting in and being able to succeed there are two very different criteria.

 

[Domina Nostra]

This is going to blow your mind, but ND and Catholicism have always been about social justice.

Jesus Christ said some truly radical stuff for his time, too.

The term "social justice" has both a general dictionary meaning and a much more specific contextual and historical meaning right now. ND and the Church have always been about social justice in a certain sense, but it has not always lined itself up so neatly with the agenda of secular Western world.

Fr. Hessburg is basically at the center of this debate. For those who are about ND transformation from Catholic University with a mission to the world, to Secular University in the Catholic tradition (as the current jargon goes), he's the genesis. He held hands not only with MLK (which was excellent) but also with the Rockefellers and a lots of other hyper-rich elites whose agendas that don't fit with Catholic social teaching at all.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

ND also likes to have its "feeder schools" which are almost always private high schools. If you can pay for that you won't be eating up too much "need based" aid.

I don't have a problem with 25% legacies (obviously I am biased NOW) - I think it helps your general sense of school spirit and identity. Give me kids going to their dream school instead of backup to Stanford or Harvard, even if they are a point or two behind on the ACT. Getting in and being able to succeed there are two very different criteria.

My favorite judge here in Maricopa County is an alumnus who currently has two kids at ND. All in it's costing him $120k/ year. Granted, he was a partner at a successful mid-sized firm in Phoenix before becoming a judge, so I doubt he's qualifying for any sort of aid based on his FAFSA. But even if my four kids can all get in based on the more lenient standards of the legacy pool, I have no idea how I'm going to afford that...

 

[Rack Em]

I don't have a problem with 25% legacies (obviously I am biased NOW) - I think it helps your general sense of school spirit and identity. Give me kids going to their dream school instead of backup to Stanford or Harvard, even if they are a point or two behind on the ACT. Getting in and being able to succeed there are two very different criteria.

Give me this all day and twice on Sunday. My roommate when I studied abroad in London was from Malaysia. He straight up told me that if he went back to his country with a business degree, especially one from ND, he’d be set for life. ND was just the best American degree he could get and then he peaced out. He took away a spot from some hardworking kid from the Midwest who grew up loving ND and actually wanted to be there.

Dream school trumps the Ivy rejects. Let Northwestern have them.

 

[zelezo vlk]

ND also likes to have its "feeder schools" which are almost always private high schools. If you can pay for that you won't be eating up too much "need based" aid.

I don't have a problem with 25% legacies (obviously I am biased NOW) - I think it helps your general sense of school spirit and identity. Give me kids going to their dream school instead of backup to Stanford or Harvard, even if they are a point or two behind on the ACT. Getting in and being able to succeed there are two very different criteria.

I've met a few guys whose answer to the question of why they chose Notre Dame was "because I didn't get into Stanford", replete with a David Shaw smirk.

 

[RDU Irish]

My favorite judge here in Maricopa County is an alumnus who currently has two kids at ND. All in it's costing him $120k/ year. Granted, he was a partner at a successful mid-sized firm in Phoenix before becoming a judge, so I doubt he's qualifying for any sort of aid based on his FAFSA. But even if my four kids can all get in based on the more lenient standards of the legacy pool, I have no idea how I'm going to afford that...

As data supports he probably comes from money to start but considering 11 years at a high priced law firm could have socked away a pretty penny. Now making a lower income could put him in consideration for financial aid, particularly with two kids at once. ND will generously offer private loans if he needs them too.

I would not have been able to attend without support from grandparents and a great aunt. Maxing out loans, etc. was still way short. Big emotional swing from acceptance to reviewing the financial aid letter. Very small grant one year my dad was unemployed, private loans weren't really a thing yet. Don't doubt they accepted a number of lower income kids annually knowing full well they won't get the aid they need to make it possible. Even then, there is a certain amount of walking around $$ you need to fit in.

Now they claim they meet "full demonstrated need" whatever TF that means. From the data it looks like they have figured out how to pre-qual financially on the front end now whereas it took care of itself on the backend 25 years ago.

 

[RDU Irish]

I've met a few guys whose answer to the question of why they chose Notre Dame was "because I didn't get into Stanford", replete with a David Shaw smirk.

Met plenty of those DBs over the years, universally the type of folks you like less the better you get to know them. My answer has always been "because I got in".

No reason ND cannot dedicate say 5% to economically bottom quartile students and another 10% to second quartile if they can dedicate 25% to legacies.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Give me this all day and twice on Sunday. My roommate when I studied abroad in London was from Malaysia. He straight up told me that if he went back to his country with a business degree, especially one from ND, he’d be set for life. ND was just the best American degree he could get and then he peaced out. He took away a spot from some hardworking kid from the Midwest who grew up loving ND and actually wanted to be there.

Dream school trumps the Ivy rejects. Let Northwestern have them.

Admissions actually does a pretty good job of weeding out who really wants to attend Notre Dame and who views it as a backup to the Ivy's. Notre Dame's yield rate is around 58% which is incredibly high considering that ND doesn't use Early Decision. Almost all of the institutions with higher yield rates use Early Decision to prop up their rate.

 

[Irish du Nord]

Agreed, but I don't think many movers and shakers at ND see Georgetown as the cautionary tale it should be.



We already reserve 25% of every incoming class for legacies, which gives them the advantage of a much less competitive applicant pool. It's the general applicant pool that's the problem here based on those linked figures. For our student body to be so skewed toward the wealthy, ND must either be inordinately prioritizing test scores or high SES; though there's a lot of overlap between those two, so it could be both/and.

Deemphasizing Catholicism, the most distinctive part of our identity, to chase wealth, prestige and a higher USN&WR ranking is exactly how you end up like Georgetown.



Sure, we could adjust that figure for regional differences in cost of living, but there's nowhere in the US where $191k isn't at least comfortably upper-middle class.



I'd like to see ND lean into its identity as the best Catholic university in the world by prioritizing really Catholic kids. Keep holding 25% of each incoming class for legacies, but for the general applicant pool, look to diversify based on race, region and SES. The Church is going to outlast the GOP, the DNC and the American empire. Hitch your wagon accordingly.

Last year as a student, I heard secondhand that there was a quota on the proportion of acceptances that had to be Catholic (Something like 80%). Could just be a rumor, but would definitely explain how ND keeps 80%+ Catholic classes year after year while other Catholic universities have seen their numbers dwindle.

 

[Irish du Nord]

I've met a few guys whose answer to the question of why they chose Notre Dame was "because I didn't get into Stanford", replete with a David Shaw smirk.

I had a roommate (international student) who had this exact scenario. He ended up grateful for the rejection.

 

[Rack Em]

Last year as a student, I heard secondhand that there was a quota on the proportion of acceptances that had to be Catholic (Something like 80%). Could just be a rumor, but would definitely explain how ND keeps 80%+ Catholic classes year after year while other Catholic universities have seen their numbers dwindle.

At the expense of sounding haughty....that must be why dorm masses are overflowing!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Admissions actually does a pretty good job of weeding out who really wants to attend Notre Dame and who views it as a backup to the Ivy's. Notre Dame's yield rate is around 58% which is incredibly high considering that ND doesn't use Early Decision. Almost all of the institutions with higher yield rates use Early Decision to prop up their rate.

That's one metric, yes, and a good one to keep high if possible. However they're also juggling lots of other metrics, like average SAT/ACT, GPA, % that are top of their class, etc. And an inordinate focus on those metrics ends up admitting a lot of east coast clout chasers who are applying to 30 schools and will pick the one with the highest USN&WR ranking. Let in enough of them, and they'll destroy whatever culture your school had within a generation.

Last year as a student, I heard secondhand that there was a quota on the proportion of acceptances that had to be Catholic (Something like 80%). Could just be a rumor, but would definitely explain how ND keeps 80%+ Catholic classes year after year while other Catholic universities have seen their numbers dwindle.

That's still true, but AFAIK, it's not based on anything more than whether the kid checks the "Catholic" box on his application. Anyone can do that, and they don't go any further in verifying whether it's true. It's no secret that identifying as Catholic helps one get into the best Catholic university in the world, so a much larger % of applicants claim it than are actually practicing.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Case in point: gramps went to ND (Class of 62) because the nuns at his high school heard that he had applied to Wabash and Purdue and were incensed that he wasn't considering ND. They scheduled an interview with an alum for him without asking and the rest, as they say, is history.

How many current students are getting referred by angry nuns?

 

[IrishLax]

Wait, everyone realizes that Notre Dame is BY FAR the least “woke” of any top 20 university, right? It literally has the most healthy balance of competing political and philosophical ideologies of any top tier college out there, and is one of the few places where the inmates don’t run the asylum.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

That's one metric, yes, and a good one to keep high if possible. However they're also juggling lots of other metrics, like average SAT/ACT, GPA, % that are top of their class, etc. And an inordinate focus on those metrics ends up admitting a lot of east coast clout chasers who are applying to 30 schools and will pick the one with the highest USN&WR ranking. Let in enough of them, and they'll destroy whatever culture your school had within a generation.

I think the point he was trying to make is that such a high percentage of admits end up enrolling that we must be admitting people who want to go to ND. That yield rate is higher than a lot of places ranked higher than us. Considering we aren't letting in people with significantly worse stats than those schools, that means people who were likely admitted to higher ranked schools chose us instead.

And really if you look at the amount of applications we get compared to the schools ranked ahead of us, a lot of people are applying to top 30 schools...minus ND. And that is with our number probably being inflated a bit by diehard ND fans who have no realistic shot at getting in but apply anyway. A faith based school in the middle of nowhere in the Midwest where the weather isn't great is going to turn a lot of kids off.

 

[Ndaccountant]

http://archives.nd.edu/observer/1975-02-18_v09_083.pdf

 

[Whiskeyjack]

 

[NDdomer2]

http://archives.nd.edu/observer/1975-02-18_v09_083.pdf

Page 2!!

 

[ulukinatme]

Rakes Report went political - at least gave caveat to stop reading when he went there. Found this link interesting -
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/notre-dame

Have to go all the way to the bottom to see ND has been in same economic boat for the most part for the last 4 decades. Economic diversity is the diversity that needs attention.

That's depressing. Most of our political problems right now boil down to rich people making shitty decisions and no one in power being willing to hold them accountable. And ND is no different apparently. I'd love to hear Jenkins address these stats regarding how the University's mission is served by catering only to the very rich.

If people are complaining about ND not being "Catholic enough"... I live a stone's throw away from Georgetown and y'all should see what that "Catholic" school has become...

There is no silver bullet to ND kids having successful families. It's a compounding issue on the fact that ND alums are generally very successful and then ND has always had strong legacy representation. Which makes sense for many reasons, one of which being that Catholic families want to send their kids to the best Catholic university in the world.

Short of making ND alums less successful or intentionally throwing out well qualified legacies who have grades/scores good enough for Ivies, I don't know what the solution is. I also think we shouldn't pretend that $191k a year is "rich" in any major metropolitan area right now... that isn't even enough to buy a starter home in DC. The median family that chart touts as "rich" is renting a 1500 square foot condo or town home working mid-level management or sub-management jobs.

ND already has raised tuition on the very wealthy in order to ensure that more and more money can be funneled to less wealthy families in various forms of financial aid. If anything, the students getting squeezed out right now are in the "middle class" who have much cheaper state school options and that's frankly not going to change. State schools are always going to be the cost effective option relative to private ones.

Poor people don't donate enough to build new buildings for the rich kids to enjoy.


Fun fact: when I was denied as a senior in high school, my dad called the admissions office to ask what kind of a "donation" could get me admitted. Eventually he got someone to tell him it was at least a 7 figure donation. Both of my parents were state employees in rural Missouri for their entire careers, so there was zero chance they could drop that. But I appreciate that he cared enough to push the issue. I'm glad it didn't happen that way, but I feel that story is telling of how much of a double standard is in place for students of average means vis-a-vis students from wealthy families.

And I had a paper published in law school about how socioeconomic diversity was the real measure of diversity, not racial diversity.

Yeah, this is some depressing stuff. ND has really gone all in on raking in the dollars in recent years. We saw it during the last expansion too. After 20 years of season tickets in the gold seats the school decided they wanted to squeeze the gold seat ticket holders for additional donations above and beyond what they were already doing. This was in addition to funding an undergrad scholarship and extras that they give to from time to time, like the creation of a science building several years ago with a room dedicated with the family name. After all that the squeezing for more donations it felt like the last straw, so Gramps gave up seats. We still went to games, just a little further up. First game we were at in 2017 I scoped out our old seats in Section 10...Georgia fans were there. What a complete let down for such a huge game! Either ND sold out, or whoever took the seats did. Either way, it contributed to the Dawgs invading the stadium and set a bad precedent. I've seen opposing fans in those seats at other games to, such a disappointment.

I tried to accepted back in the day too, but only got an honorable mention. Makes me wonder if even getting that close had anything to do with my grandfather's connection. My cousins did get in, certainly not on 7 figure donations, but they were also direct legacies as their parents were graduates. So you can make it in without the heavy donations, but it helps if your family has already been through there.