Fatal shooting Charleston SC

[Cackalacky]

And I would emphasize the same exact point in another form: symbols like these can evolve numerous times from era to era or generation to generation, and that for some it's evolved to nothing more than a symbol of Southern pride, a hybrid of all CSA flags, or an emblem meant to show that, "I'm Southern"... They can have the background wrong and not be wrong in their intent is what I suppose I'm trying to get at... in a way that a Nazi flag could never be mistaken or twisted today as, "I don't hate anyone, I'm just German."

I get it tho, I'm not at ground zero on this issue and have met numerous people with good hearts on either side, so it's easy for me to be less hardened.

Yeah, I am battle hardened. No excuse there. Haha.

 

[Bluto]

Mostly self-serving spin. 240 years of slavery in the colonies and the early US aren't wiped clean by 5 years of fighting against it finally (and no, slavery didn't end in the North as early as most think, as there were still slaves in many Northern states well into the Civil War). I'm not defending slavery of course. We all agree slavery was an evil practice. Times were different and slaveholders in the North and the South were just doing what they'd been taught (and what had been a common practice around the world in virtually every society for thousands of years). I'm condemning the holier than thou attitude of those who think getting to the point of being against slavery a few years sooner (after having started practicing it a few years sooner too) and thinking 5 years of "enlightenment" erases 240 years of guilt.

Just don't spin me the bs about how noble the North was and how awful the South was. The North engaged in slavery for centuries too and most regions of the North were strongly opposed to letting the freed former slaves move into their areas. The self-righteous bashing of The South over all this by The North is like a recovered meth addict bashing a recovered heroin addict for taking a little longer to get clean. Making a whipping boy of the Confederate Flag and pointing your finger at others is a lot easier than looking in the mirror.

Does the rest of the country have problems with racism and such? Sure. The South however, was on the wrong side of history for the better part of this nations existence and in many was still is and seemingly goes out of the way to be particularly shitty when it comes to dealing with such issues. In my opinion if there is any group that needs to stop pointing fingers/making excuses and needs to take a long hard look in the mirror it would be white Southerners. To whit...

Alabama Governor Bentley Resigns and the State Gives a Church Its Own Police Force

Roll Tide...

 

[ACamp1900]

Just had an interesting moment... I believe I stated in this very thread some time back that I rarely if ever see the Confederate flag in Cali...

I was at lunch today and next to this nice little BBQ joint was this Air Soft place that my co worker wanted to hit up afterwards. So after we eat we walk over. Exactly what you would expect except there is an American flag about shoulder height behind the counter and above that is the Stars and Bars (The real one). I was pretty taken back more for it being higher than the American Flag than anything. I felt like politely asking what the deal or story was but figured I was technically on the clock and why take a chance at getting at getting drawn into an all out argument or worse... anyway, still feel weird about it.

 

[ACamp1900]

The consensus in my office is they are being sneaky as most people wouldn't know that particular flag... especially out here. They aren't getting that past me though.

anyway.

 

[Cackalacky]

Just had an interesting moment... I believe I stated in this very thread some time back that I rarely if ever see the Confederate flag in Cali...

I was at lunch today and next to this nice little BBQ joint was this Air Soft place that my co worker wanted to hit up afterwards. So after we eat we walk over. Exactly what you would expect except there is an American flag about shoulder height behind the counter and above that is the Stars and Bars (The real one). I was pretty taken back more for it being higher than the American Flag than anything. I felt like politely asking what the deal or story was but figured I was technically on the clock and why take a chance at getting at getting drawn into an all out argument or worse... anyway, still feel weird about it.

You mean this flag?

I am perfectly ok with this being displayed as this is the flag of heritage since it was the national flag of the CSA. Interesting that they hung it above the US flag out there.

 

[ACamp1900]

Yes, it being hung above was my issue... you see some hanging the Mexican flag above ours often enough, that usually does end well... i was also just super taken back by it all,... idk.

 

[Cackalacky]

Yes, it being hung above was my issue... you see some hanging the Mexican flag above ours often enough, that usually does end well... i was also just super taken back by it all,... idk.

Funny enough that flag is never flown or hung here. Its always the other one because that is what people know. IMO its more historically accurate. I am interested to know the bigger story there.

 

[ACamp1900]

Funny enough that flag is never flown or hung here. Its always the other one because that is what people know. IMO its more historically accurate. I am interested to know the bigger story there.

Well give me time but one day I'll go back over and ask politely....

 

[Cackalacky]

Well give me time but one day I'll go back over and ask politely....

Haha. Just act racist and you are in like Flynn.

 

[wizards8507]

Up here in the civilized states we fly the American flag. The regular one. And that's it. Ever.

 

[ACamp1900]

Up here in the civilized states we fly the American flag. The regular one. And that's it. Ever.

Connecticut is basically California minus theme parks, and nice weather....

 

[Sureal]

Up here in the civilized states we fly the American flag. The regular one. And that's it. Ever.

Unless you live in Danielson/Putnam/Killingly. We got that mess in CT too.

 

[wizards8507]

Unless you live in Danielson/Putnam/Killingly. We got that mess in CT too.

Connecticut guide by county:

Litchfield and Windham - Forests, no people
Tolland - UConn
Fairfield - Basically New York
Hartford, New Haven, Middlesex, and New London - Where people actually live

Connecticut is basically California minus theme parks, and nice weather....

Those aren't the only things California has that Connecticut doesn't...

 

[BGIF]

Up here in the civilized states we fly the American flag. The regular one. And that's it. Ever.

Ever is a long time.

Weren't the New Englanders the first secessionists? Seems I recall many in those "civilized states" were trying to leave the Union a couple generations before P. G.T. Beauregard ordered the first shot fired in The Rebellion.

Seems they even had a Secessionist Convention in, dare I say it, Connecticut in the early 1800's. There were many a Union Jack flying treasonably in those "civilized states" before and during The War of 1812. The Union won despite the "civilized states" thwarting of the war effort.

 

[BGIF]

Incidentally, P.G.T. Beauregard's statute was dismantled in New Orleans in the wee hours of today. That's 3 down with R.E. Lee on deck.



New Orleans crews begin removing statue of Confederate general | Reuters

 

[Irish#1]

Incidentally, P.G.T. Beauregard's statute was dismantled in New Orleans in the wee hours of today. That's 3 down with R.E. Lee on deck.



New Orleans crews begin removing statue of Confederate general | Reuters

IMO it will be a travesty if Lee's statue is taken down. He is one of the great Americans of our country. No, I'm not endorsing slavery.

 

[woolybug25]

Those aren't the only things California has that Connecticut doesn't...

Are you talking about attractive women or avocados?

 

[BGIF]

IMO it will be a travesty if Lee's statue is taken down. He is one of the great Americans of our country. No, I'm not endorsing slavery.

Lee's been sent to the warehouse.


New Orleans Confederate Statues' Removal Ends A Long-Running Battle : NPR


As for Lee being a great man, check the WaPo article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rid_collaborative_2_na&utm_term=.cc1c95439264


The Civil War would have been over a lot sooner with a lot less dead had Lee not left his Blue uniform for a Gray one.

 

[Circa]

What would you call Tim McVeigh?

A former military guy whom became a patsy

 

[Irish#1]

Lee's been sent to the warehouse.


New Orleans Confederate Statues' Removal Ends A Long-Running Battle : NPR


As for Lee being a great man, check the WaPo article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rid_collaborative_2_na&utm_term=.cc1c95439264


The Civil War would have been over a lot sooner with a lot less dead had Lee not left his Blue uniform for a Gray one.

Totally agree with that. He was making every Union General look bad until Grant came along and used his superior numbers. There have been arguments on both sides about strategy. I won't go into great detail as this isn't the thread. I will just say that Lee was on the offensive, because the naval blockade set up all down the eastern seaboard and around the gulf to the Mississippi would not have allowed for a dig in and wait tactic. Pickett's charge is what everyone remembers about Gettysburg, but the was an officer that reported to Lee who made the biggest mistake at Gettysburg. Don't remember the officers name at the moment, but he had the high ground a couple of days before the battle. He saw the union coming and pulled out. If he would have just held and sent for reinforcements, Pickett's charge wouldn't have happened.

 

[ACamp1900]

General Ewell... an event that is still up for debate.

 

[NorthDakota]

General Ewell... an event that is still up for debate.

Lost an arm i believe at Chancelorsville. Apparently took away his killer instinct.

 

[Cackalacky]

Totally agree with that. He was making every Union General look bad until Grant came along and used his superior numbers. There have been arguments on both sides about strategy. I won't go into great detail as this isn't the thread. I will just say that Lee was on the offensive, because the naval blockade set up all down the eastern seaboard and around the gulf to the Mississippi would not have allowed for a dig in and wait tactic. Pickett's charge is what everyone remembers about Gettysburg, but the was an officer that reported to Lee who made the biggest mistake at Gettysburg. Don't remember the officers name at the moment, but he had the high ground a couple of days before the battle. He saw the union coming and pulled out. If he would have just held and sent for reinforcements, Pickett's charge wouldn't have happened.

IMO, the biggest reason the war dragged on was becasue very early on in the War, General McClellan disobeyed Lincoln on numerous occasions and refused to follow his orders... and did literally nothing for over a year. Everyone wanted him to move on Richmond and he didnt. Everyone wanted him to be aggressive and he didnt. Lee had some good strategies but had McClellan pressed his numerical advantage instead of pussyfooting around, Lee's AoNV would have been defeated much earlier.

 

[ACamp1900]

Lost an arm i believe at Chancelorsville. Apparently took away his killer instinct.

I believe you are confusing Jackson here... Ewell lost a leg shortly after C-ville. There was also Longstreet who lost the use of one arm under much the same circumstances and in the same general area as Jackson, about a year later.

 

[NorthDakota]

I believe you are confusing Jackson here... Ewell lost a leg shortly after C-ville.

Ahhh shit. Brainfart. Brb.... gonna go watch/read Gods and Generals and The killer angels as penance.

 

[ACamp1900]

Ahhh shit. Brainfart. Brb.... gonna go watch/read Gods and Generals and The killer angels as penance.

It gets easy to confuse them all...

 

[NorthDakota]

It gets easy to confuse them all...

Don't forget to pour one out for John Reynolds.

 

[Irish#1]

IMO, the biggest reason the war dragged on was becasue very early on in the War, General McClellan disobeyed Lincoln on numerous occasions and refused to follow his orders... and did literally nothing for over a year. Everyone wanted him to move on Richmond and he didnt. Everyone wanted him to be aggressive and he didnt. Lee had some good strategies but had McClellan pressed his numerical advantage instead of pussyfooting around, Lee's AoNV would have been defeated much earlier.

It wasn't just McClellan. If memory serves me correctly, it started with Scott, but also included Halleck as generals who were slow to go on the offensive. They were hesitant to act because of the Battle of First Manassas/Bull Run. McClellan also had political ambitions which made him cautious to act. Give Lee his credit. He recognized the Northern generals reluctance to act and took advantage of it. Lee knew early on that the South could never win the war. His intent was to keep creating these victories in hopes that public opinion in the North would force the North to come to the bargaining table. That was the main reason he took his army to Gettysburg.

Lincoln finally put Grant in charge because Grant understood he had superiors numbers in troops, supplies, munitions, etc.. Grant had already used it to his advantage in taking Vicksburg. Lincoln wanted someone who wasn't afraid to act and Grant was the perfect choice. Lee knew once Grant took over the Souths days were numbered. If Lee had been in charge of the Army of the Potomac, the war might have been over at Manassas.

 

[ACamp1900]

It wasn't just McClellan. If memory serves me correctly, it started with Scott, but also included Halleck as generals who were slow to go on the offensive. They were hesitant to act because of the Battle of First Manassas/Bull Run. McClellan also had political ambitions which made him cautious to act. Give Lee his credit. He recognized the Northern generals reluctance to act and took advantage of it. Lee knew early on that the South could never win the war. His intent was to keep creating these victories in hopes that public opinion in the North would force the North to come to the bargaining table. That was the main reason he took his army to Gettysburg.

Lincoln finally put Grant in charge because Grant understood he had superiors numbers in troops, supplies, munitions, etc.. Grant had already used it to his advantage in taking Vicksburg. Lincoln wanted someone who wasn't afraid to act and Grant was the perfect choice. Lee knew once Grant took over the Souths days were numbered.

Grant was initially criticized for being a butcher and such... which may explain some of the tentativeness of other Northern Generals... I think there may have been a bit of, "We will wait this out, they will lose their vigor soon, why kill thousands more??" kind of feeling during the first couple years... by time Grant took over it was easy to see that was foolishness.

 

[GowerND11]

Grant was initially criticized for being a butcher and such... which may explain some of the tentativeness of other Northern Generals... I think there may have been a bit of, "We will wait this out, they will lose their vigor soon, why kill thousands more??" kind of feeling during the first couple years... by time Grant took over it was easy to see that was foolishness.

Hindsight is 20/20...

Yeah, it seems obvious to us that the North was waiting things out. "We got the numbers, why press?" That makes sense, coupled with the blockade. However, with each win (and even each loss in some cases), the South gained momentum, while the North had to worry about draft riots and the like. It became clear that the need to use that superiority was the only choice to win.