Fatal shooting Charleston SC

[ACamp1900]

That's because racists in Cali fly Mexican flags!

You ain't right, but you ain't wrong.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I saw one flying off a truck a year or so ago and I just asked the guy where he was from and he said Iowa (I live in Iowa) and then said you know Iowa fought for the North right? Guy just gave me a go f yourself look and walked off.

It doesn't bother me when I see it in the south because I don't understand the appeal but it at least sort of makes sense there. However, when you are in the North.....

I think it has a lot to do with what it symbolizes to different people. When I was growing up in AL, the Confederate flag didn't really have any racist connotations. I clearly remember a couple of the black guys I went to HS with having Confederate flags. What it symbolizes to different people has changed over the years. For Blacks, it's become a symbol of oppression, racism and slavery. For many Southerners, it's a symbol of their history and the best that the Old South was... a sort of Gone With The Wind chivalry, courage and culture. For others, including those in the North who use the flag, it probably more symbolizes being part of the good ol' boy/redneck culture and thinking of themselves as a rebel.

 

[ACamp1900]

I think it has a lot to do with what it symbolizes to different people.

It CLEARLY means different things to different people... that's why I shy away from it's comparison to other flags or symbols (Nazi for example) I know the Swastika goes back much further than the 1930s and had multiple meanings and such, but if you fly that flag today, in this country, there is no mistaking the intent... in fairness you can absolutely mistake the intent of the Stars and Bars.

 

[BobbyMac]

What is "the Confederate Flag"?

What is the "Stars & Bars"?

 

[ACamp1900]

What is "the Confederate Flag"?

What is the "Stars & Bars"?

Yes, I know that technically refers to the first 'official' flag used at Bull Run and such... but everyone here knows what I mean and plenty of people use that term for both... if you want we can use the "The Star Barred Battle Flag of South Western Confederate Dukes of Hazard"...

 

[BobbyMac]

Yes, I know that technically refers to the first 'official' flag used at Bull Run and such... but everyone here knows what I mean and plenty of people use that term for both... if you want we can use the "The Star Barred Battle Flag of South Western Confederate Dukes of Hazard"...

Even that flag used by the North Virginians is not what has become known as the rectangular "Rebel Flag" or "Southern Cross" That flag was square. The rectangular version was the Second Navy Jack which was later adopted by the Tennesseans for the battle field.

Even more proof of how the true meaning of things change over time.

 

[Cackalacky]

I think it has a lot to do with what it symbolizes to different people. When I was growing up in AL, the Confederate flag didn't really have any racist connotations. I clearly remember a couple of the black guys I went to HS with having Confederate flags. What it symbolizes to different people has changed over the years. For Blacks, it's become a symbol of oppression, racism and slavery. For many Southerners, it's a symbol of their history and the best that the Old South was... a sort of Gone With The Wind chivalry, courage and culture. For others, including those in the North who use the flag, it probably more symbolizes being part of the good ol' boy/redneck culture and thinking of themselves as a rebel.

It CLEARLY means different things to different people... that's why I shy away from it's comparison to other flags or symbols (Nazi for example) I know the Swastika goes back much further than the 1930s and had multiple meanings and such, but if you fly that flag today, in this country, there is no mistaking the intent... in fairness you can absolutely mistake the intent of the Stars and Bars.

Even that flag used by the North Virginians is not what has become known as the rectangular "Rebel Flag" or "Southern Cross" That flag was square. The rectangular version was the Second Navy Jack which was later adopted by the Tennesseans for the battle field.

Even more proof of how the true meaning of things change over time.

The modern day version of the flag has a very simple recent history:
1. Truman desegregates the Armed Services in 1948
2. Northern Democrats adopt desegregation platform and further strain relations with conservative Southern Democrats.
3. Civil Rights Era begins.
4. Dixiecrats split from Democrats and form their own party running strictly on a Segregation and anti-civil rights Platform
5. They adopt and re-purpose the stars and bars for one reason only:

Why did the the Confederate flag reappear so long after the war?

The Confederate battle flag made its reappearance following the end of World War II. A group of southern states seceded from the Democratic party and ran their own ticket, the Dixiecrats, and the Confederate battle flag was very prominent with the Dixiecrat campaign in the 1948 presidential election. Before ‘48, it had appeared occasionally at football games at southern universities, and usually at soldiers’ reunions or commemorations of Civil War battles; but other than that, it really was not a prominent feature of the South.

Once the Dixiecrats got a hold of it as a matter of defiance against their Democratic colleagues in the north and the African Americans in their midst, then the Confederate battle flag took on a new life, or a second life. In the 1950s, as the Civil Rights Movement built up steam, you began to see more and more public displays of the Confederate battle flag, to the point where the state of Georgia in 1956 redesigned their state flag to include the Confederate battle flag.


Were there other states that redesigned their flags at that time?

No other states redesigned their flag during the 1950s and 1960s. But in 1962, the state of South Carolina put the Confederate battle flag atop the capitol building in Columbia, South Carolina. The public reason for that [was that they] were celebrating the 100th anniversary of the Civil War. But in fact it was again a flag of defiance [against] the federal government and racial equality, because it was at the height of the Civil Rights Movement in the South.

Here in SC it was quite literally a fuck you to blacks from the Segregationists and is a symbol of Jim Crow support. It was a symbol of Segregationism. It was adopted by a racist political party with a Segregationist platform. It was adopted by white nationalist radical groups with no uproar from other southerners. It is impossible to think it means anything else.

 

[ACamp1900]

The modern day version of the flag has a very simple recent history:
1. Truman desegregates the Armed Services in 1948
2. Northern Democrats adopt desegregation platform and further strain relations with conservative Southern Democrats.
3. Civil Rights Era begins.
4. Dixiecrats split from Democrats and form their own party running strictly on a Segregation and anti-civil rights Platform
5. They adopt and re-purpose the stars and bars for one reason only:



Here in SC it was quite literally a fuck you to blacks from the Segregationists and is a symbol of Jim Crow support. It was a symbol of Segregationism. It was adopted by a racist political party with a Segregationist platform. It was adopted by white nationalist radical groups with no uproar from other southerners. It is impossible to think it means anything else.

I mean, I don't want to come off as defending the flag or rejecting the history mentioned above or anything so I hope I'm not losing things in translation or tone:

I get that you live in a pretty shitty region (in regards to these issues) where everything seems so black and white but do you reject the notion that there are plenty of decent people from a vast array of backgrounds (including even some southern blacks) who view that symbol in an entirely different light?? Or is every single person who has flown that flag instantly labeled a racist bigot as the only reason for doing so what you laid out??

I wouldn't fly that flag for my own reasons and I assume pretty confidently most of my reasons match yours... but I also don't view it as an instant dead giveaway of hatred like I would something like the Nazi flag... does that make sense?

 

[fightingirish26]

The confederate flag is flown in PA, and not just the Pennsyltucky area. A handful of kids that I went to high school with (in suburban Philly) flew it on the backs of their trucks, and knowing them personally, I can quite comfortably say that they do not care for black people. I can still remember one of them trying to downplay their racism by saying "it's ok, n****** just don't know any better."

So, is it a dead giveaway for racism? Probably not. I just don't know anybody who flies it and also loves black people.

 

[Cackalacky]

Let me go a bit deeper so people dont think I am being unreasonable:

When you look at this what do you think?

These are religous iconographies from Hindu and Bhuddist traditions that date back thousands of years. Its pretty clear that these do NOT represent jewish genocide and they quite clearly do not represent this:

According to reputable historians both southern and northern:

Despite never having historically represented the Confederate States of America as a country, nor officially recognized as one of its national flags, the rectangular Second Confederate Navy Jack and the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia are now flag types commonly referred to as the Confederate Flag. They both have become a widely recognized symbol of the Southern United States. It is also known as the rebel flag, Dixie flag, and Southern cross and is often incorrectly referred to as the Stars and Bars (ACamp). The actual "Stars and Bars" is the first national flag, which used an entirely different design. The self-declared Confederate exclave of Town Line, New York, lacking a genuine Confederate flag, flew a version of this flag prior to its 1946 vote to ceremonially rejoin the Union.

So what we know.... is that the Second Navy Union Jack was re-purposed by Dixicrat Segrationists as a symbol and their desired continuation of the southern status quo and a rebellion against desegreation.

When I look at this:

Historically it has very little connection to any flag that was sanctioned by the confederate states as representing THE CSA. Anyone claiming such is committing revisionist history.

 

[Cackalacky]

I mean, I don't want to come off as defending the flag or rejecting the history mentioned above or anything so I hope I'm not losing things in translation or tone:

I get that you live in a pretty shitty region (in regards to these issues) where everything seems so black and white but do you reject the notion that there are plenty of decent people from a vast array of backgrounds (including even some southern blacks) who view that symbol in an entirely different light?? Or is every single person who has flown that flag instantly labeled a racist bigot as the only reason for doing so what you laid out??

I wouldn't fly that flag for my own reasons and I assume pretty confidently most of my reasons match yours... but I also don't view it as an instant dead giveaway of hatred like I would something like the Nazi flag... does that make sense?

I know you are not and as always you are well measured and I dont think you are .
My overall point (see my post above) is the heritage not hate argument is bunk. People who use that are guilty of revisionist history and its very ignorant whether willfully or not. The current flag that everyone flies around is quite simply a re-purposed symbol by the Dixiecrats during the Civil Rights Era.

If they wanted heritage not hate to mean something they would use the flags of the The CSA.

 

[ACamp1900]

I know you are not and as always you are well measured and I dont think you are .
My overall point (see my post above) is the heritage not hate argument is bunk. People who use that are guilty of revisionist history and its very ignorant whether willfully or not. The current flag that everyone flies around is quite simply a re-purposed symbol by the Dixiecrats during the Civil Rights Era.

If they wanted heritage not hate to mean something they would use the flags of the The CSA.

eh, maybe there are a lot people that are just simpler than you or I when it comes to history behind present day symbols (like me with camping )... I know the different flags for the record, (I must note as both educator and CW enthusiast) but even the acknowledgment in your previous post that many call most flags SnB in this day and age just reinforces my point... I know it's rhetorical but I have met some from the South, including blacks, that have a vast array of views and or interpretations of the flag... re-purposed once more (for some).

 

[Cackalacky]

eh, maybe there are a lot people that are just simpler than you or I when it comes to history behind present day symbols (like me with camping )... I know the different flags for the record, (I must note as both educator and CW enthusiast) but even the acknowledgment in your previous post that many call most flags SnB in this day and age just reinforces my point... I know it's rhetorical but I have met some from the South, including blacks, that have a vast array of views and or interpretations of the flag... re-purposed once more (for some).

and I am simply left thinking

"implied "

 

[NDohio]

My perspective comes from only living here in SC for a few years. When living in OH most of the people I knew that had the "confederate" flag flying or had it on a shirt, did so with the intent of celebrating what they perceived as southern lifestyle. Many of them thought that the south was Myrtle Beach and it was all about sun, drinking, sun, slow pace, sun, beaches, and sun. Now that I am here is South Carolina I realize that in this state that flag, for the most part(99.9%), is a symbol of racism. I do see how it can be seen as having different meanings for people.

When the controversy was going on about removing the flag from the Statehouse I had some interesting conversations with friends back home. Of course, many of them have no idea what the racism is like here in S Cackalacky.

 

[ACamp1900]

Of course, many of them have no idea what the racism is like here in S Cackalacky.

I have that fool figured:

Cacky thinks terrible people live in South Carolina
Cacky thinks ACamp should move to South Carolina
Cacky, at best, has little concern for ACamp.

 

[Cackalacky]

I have that fool figured:

Cacky thinks terrible people live in South Carolina
Cacky thinks ACamp should move to South Carolina
Cacky, at best, has little concern for ACamp.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Cack, while the Dixiecrats may have repurposed the flag for their own reasons, racism in SC may be a lot worse than most other places, and some people may indeed fly the flag as a racist symbol or a screw you to Blacks or civil rights, it's still overly simplistic and very inaccurate to say that's all the flag symbolizes and everyone flies it for the same racist reasons. I'm with ACamp on this one. I'd never fly it these days for my own reasons and because doing so could be interpreted the wrong way, but it certainly doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

Just because something is seen one way at this point in time by this group doesn't mean it's seen the same way at a different time by a different group. A blanket condemnation of it and anyone flying it, based on a narrow view of it, is misguided and erroneous. As a native Southerner, I'd point out an uncomfortable fact. The US flag flew for decades over northern states while slavery was common there. Why should it be any less a symbol of slavery?

 

[Bluto]

Cack, while the Dixiecrats may have repurposed the flag for their own reasons, racism in SC may be a lot worse than most other places, and some people may indeed fly the flag as a racist symbol or a screw you to Blacks or civil rights, it's still overly simplistic and very inaccurate to say that's all the flag symbolizes and everyone flies it for the same racist reasons. I'm with ACamp on this one. I'd never fly it these days for my own reasons and because doing so could be interpreted the wrong way, but it certainly doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

Just because something is seen one way at this point in time by this group doesn't mean it's seen the same way at a different time by a different group. A blanket condemnation of it and anyone flying it, based on a narrow view of it, is misguided and erroneous. As a native Southerner, I'd point out an uncomfortable fact. The US flag flew for decades over northern states while slavery was common there. Why should it be any less a symbol of slavery?

You kind of answered your own question. The US flag did fly over Northern States that had slaves at one point. Major difference is that flag also was flying at the front of the army that was fighting to put and end to said practice. Frankly, a lot of assholes in the South have never gotten over the fact that they lost and they have fought tooth and nail to keep "niggers in their place" and to ensure that whites maintain their stranglehold on power in the South ever since and to the point, that flag is a rather powerful symbol of that.

 

[Bishop2b5]

You kind of answered your own question. The US flag did fly over Northern States that had slaves at one point. Major difference is that flag also was flying at the front of the army that was fighting to put and end to said practice. Frankly, a lot of assholes in the South have never gotten over the fact that they lost and they have fought tooth and nail to keep "niggers in their place" and to ensure that whites maintain their stranglehold on power in the South ever since and to the point, that flag is a rather powerful symbol of that.

Mostly self-serving spin. 240 years of slavery in the colonies and the early US aren't wiped clean by 5 years of fighting against it finally (and no, slavery didn't end in the North as early as most think, as there were still slaves in many Northern states well into the Civil War). I'm not defending slavery of course. We all agree slavery was an evil practice. Times were different and slaveholders in the North and the South were just doing what they'd been taught (and what had been a common practice around the world in virtually every society for thousands of years). I'm condemning the holier than thou attitude of those who think getting to the point of being against slavery a few years sooner (after having started practicing it a few years sooner too) and thinking 5 years of "enlightenment" erases 240 years of guilt.

Just don't spin me the bs about how noble the North was and how awful the South was. The North engaged in slavery for centuries too and most regions of the North were strongly opposed to letting the freed former slaves move into their areas. The self-righteous bashing of The South over all this by The North is like a recovered meth addict bashing a recovered heroin addict for taking a little longer to get clean. Making a whipping boy of the Confederate Flag and pointing your finger at others is a lot easier than looking in the mirror.

 

[Cackalacky]

Mostly self-serving spin. 240 years of slavery in the colonies and the early US aren't wiped clean by 5 years of fighting against it finally (and no, slavery didn't end in the North as early as most think, as there were still slaves in many Northern states well into the Civil War).

This is a difficult passage to read without rolling my eyes.

1. The abolition of slaves and desire for the ending of slavery began as early as before the American Revolution. The constitution was written in manner such that many knew it was wrong but they needed the southern colonies to join.
2. The abolition movement as we know it began in the 1830's. It was such a big deal for so long a time that it went so far as having Congress determine the status of new states that joined the union.
3. 1777 -Vermont amends its constitution to ban slavery. Over the next 25 years, other Northern states emancipate their slaves and ban the institution: Pennsylvania, 1780; Massachusetts and New Hampshire, 1783; Connecticut and Rhode Island, 1784; New York, 1799; and New Jersey, 1804. Some of the state laws stipulate gradual emancipation.
4. 1787 -The Northwest Ordinance bans slavery in the Northwest Territory (what becomes the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin). The ordinance together with state emancipation laws create a free North.
5. In 1807 Congress bans the importation of slaves, effective January 1, 1808, the earliest date allowed by the Constitution. The internal slave trade continues in states where the institution is legal.

I'm condemning the holier than thou attitude of those who think getting to the point of being against slavery a few years sooner (after having started practicing it a few years sooner too) and thinking 5 years of "enlightenment" erases 240 years of guilt.

They didnt arrive there a few years earlier (LOL). Slavery was banned in the north (in most areas by the 1810's. Even if we accept your revisionist argument about the Emancipation Proclamation being the defining line, Reconstruction and the Jim Crow Era are clearly defining periods in history that separate the North from The South. This period encompasses 100 years of out right opposition.

Just don't spin me the bs about how noble the North was and how awful the South was. The North engaged in slavery for centuries too and most regions of the North were strongly opposed to letting the freed former slaves move into their areas. The self-righteous bashing of The South over all this by The North is like a recovered meth addict bashing a recovered heroin addict for taking a little longer to get clean. Making a whipping boy of the Confederate Flag and pointing your finger at others is a lot easier than looking in the mirror.

If the North had anything to be ashamed of here with respect to slavery is that they abandoned the freedmen in the 1870s-1880s thereby leading to Segregation and Jim Crow. They didnt return to the fray until the Civil Rights Era which spawned the awesomely racist Dixiecrats.

Slavery was experienceing the death rattle in the northen (non-agrarian) states since the Revolution and it wasnt legally ended in the agrarian south till the 1960s. It seems to me that you think there was some magical black and white line when slavery ended and when it didnt and that the North tacitly approved of slavery even though it was untied in its self-imposed abolition policies for hundreds of years prior to the South being forced to end it. As with most things or politcal and economical issues it takes time to legislate and have public opinon change. SMDH

 

[Irish Insanity]

I drove thru, and stayed the night in, South Carolina for the first time in my life this past week. Pretty nice state.

 

[Cackalacky]

I drove thru, and stayed the night in, South Carolina for the first time in my life this past week. Pretty nice state.

Which part? Did you see the awesomly sterotypical billboards for South of The Border?

 

[InKellyITrust]

My wife and I stayed in Charleston for the first time a few weeks ago and we loved it. We'll definitely be back again.

 

[Cackalacky]

eh, maybe there are a lot people that are just simpler than you or I when it comes to history behind present day symbols (like me with camping )... I know the different flags for the record, (I must note as both educator and CW enthusiast) but even the acknowledgment in your previous post that many call most flags SnB in this day and age just reinforces my point... I know it's rhetorical but I have met some from the South, including blacks, that have a vast array of views and or interpretations of the flag... re-purposed once more (for some).

How much of an enthusiast? You definitely need to visit Charleston/Savannah if you are. Not sure if you have heard of this guy but I highly recommend his take. It is a southern romantic view but it is exceptionally well done and provides a defogged Southern view of the war. He was also the guy that featured prominently in the Ken Burns documentary which I love as well.
https://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Volumes-1-3-Box/dp/0394749138

I also have the complete set of Time life Books. I got them for Christams when I was 11 yo. They are very good.

 

[kmoose]

...as both educator and CW enthusiast...

You can't be that much of a Civil War enthusiast, or you would refer to it by its proper name: The War of Northern Aggression!

 

[ACamp1900]

How much of an enthusiast? You definitely need to visit Charleston/Savannah if you are. Not sure if you have heard of this guy but I highly recommend his take. It is a southern romantic view but it is exceptionally well done and provides a defogged Southern view of the war. He was also the guy that featured prominently in the Ken Burns documentary which I love as well.
https://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Volumes-1-3-Box/dp/0394749138

I also have the complete set of Time life Books. I got them for Christams when I was 11 yo. They are very good.

Big enough?? It's not my fav historical topic but it's up there... many here are nerds with comic-books, science, theology, and obviously nothing wrong with any of those... I'm a nerd for history.

Absolutely, I know Shelby Foote... enjoyed what I have read and heard from him. Getting his volumes has been one of many literary goals I've yet to accomplish. If I remember right, his thoughts on the flag (from yesterday) made for a pretty good hybrid of your thoughts and mine... I remember when he died, it saddened me. I appreciated what he brought to the table... and it's why I kind of understand where Bishop is coming from to a degree, there are real human stories worth telling from all sides of this thing and decent human beings (and monsters) stood on either side, we lose that when we paint in such broad strokes. I also think there are real consequences too, as we saw with Reconstruction and the after math of...

Anyway, Foote was also great at bringing a lot of that to the forefront...

 

[Cackalacky]

Big enough?? It's not my fav historical topic but it's up there... many here are nerds with comic-books, science, theology, and obviously nothing wrong with any of those... I'm a nerd for history.

Absolutely, I know Shelby Foote... enjoyed what I have read and heard from him. Getting his volumes has been one of many literary goals I've yet to accomplish. If I remember right, his thoughts on the flag (from yesterday) made for a pretty good hybrid of your thoughts and mine... I remember when he died, it saddened me. I appreciated what he brought to the table... and it's why I kind of understand where Bishop is coming from to a degree, there are real human stories worth telling from all sides of this thing and decent human beings (and monsters) stood on either side, we lose that when we paint in such broad strokes. I also think there are real consequences too, as we saw with Reconstruction and the after math of...

Anyway, Foote was also great at bringing a lot of that to the forefront...

I agree very much with this as it is essential to discovering the truth. I am always open to new reasoning and evidence and input and I pride myself on assimilating new information and being able to change my understanding as such. However...one of the reasons that I am very rigid on the "interpretation" of present day meaning of the flag is very similar to my rigidity on religion in the science classroom.

Fact's are not subject to one's opinion (ie the age of the Earth). Its the assimilation of the facts in context of our lives that drives our opinions. Not all opinions are created equal nor do they deserve equal time in discussions simply becasue some opinions are based on limited understandings or incomplete information on a subject matter. Which is fine.... we all dont know everything about anything let alone much about everything. But in many cases opinions are just plain wrong and need to be corrected so as not to dilute the truth that has been discovered and well documented through the accumulation of facts.

I acknowledge all of us have biases and I particularly attempt to make arguments with as little bias as possible (lol right?)

Ultimately, someone's "opinion", no matter how it is arrived at is meaningless when it derives from flawed understandings and premises and misuse of fairly well established context. Errant factual basis and the spread of flawed understandings should be corrected at every opportunity so as not to promote and promulgate opinions that are contrary to established patterns of fact.

The thing with Foote is that he is uber-Romantic in his tellings. but he also glosses over, minimizes and otherwise obscures the factual basis of many events and people (on both sides) and this is a valid criticism of his writings offered by many historians.

The facts are that at the end of the war, the battle flags went away. Reconstruction happened, and then the North pulled out its armies leaving the blacks with no education, no land and no value except as sharecroppers. From 1880 to 1948 any CSA flags were collecting dust in trunks as relics of history at best. If I can do anything here that matters... is to emphaisze that the flag as we all know it now did not represent the CSA. It didnt represent our GGGGrandpappies and it didnt represent heritage or some romantic version of the state's right south.

People who claim that are just wrong in their uniformed opinion. Much like making the claim that the earth is 6000 years old. Its just factually wrong and has no merit nor does it do anyone anygood to promote and promulgate. It actually confuses things for the worse. I dont mind telling someone that their claim is wrong and providing factual evidence to support my assertion. I guess that makes me an asshole in my directness but whatever....

 

[ACamp1900]

If I can do anything here that matters... is to emphasize that the flag as we all know it now did not represent the CSA. It didnt represent our GGGGrandpappies and it didnt represent heritage or some romantic version of the state's right south.

And I would emphasize the same exact point in another form: symbols like these can evolve numerous times from era to era or generation to generation, and that for some it's evolved to nothing more than a symbol of Southern pride, a hybrid of all CSA flags, or an emblem meant to show that, "I'm Southern"... They can have the background wrong and not be wrong in their intent is what I suppose I'm trying to get at... in a way that a Nazi flag could never be mistaken or twisted today as, "I don't hate anyone, I'm just German."

I get it tho, I'm not at ground zero on this issue and have met numerous people with good hearts on either side, so it's easy for me to be less hardened.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Which part? Did you see the awesomly sterotypical billboards for South of The Border?

We stayed in Columbia. We were driving back from down South to Michigan. That was the only place that had a room available. More driving thru than anything.

 

[Cackalacky]

We stayed in Columbia. We were driving back from down South to Michigan. That was the only place that had a room available. More driving thru than anything.

Columbia is just ok. Its a lot better since Sherman burned it down. Still the hottest place in SC during the summer.