Duke Post Game

[Luckylucci]

One thing I’d really like to see them do more of is put him under Center. His footwork out of the gun is crazy bad right now. Get him under Center so he has a certain number of steps in his drop, plant, and deliver. If it’s not there, throw it away.

 

[IrishBoognish]

One thing I’d really like to see them do more of is put him under Center. His footwork out of the gun is crazy bad right now. Get him under Center so he has a certain number of steps in his drop, plant, and deliver. If it’s not there, throw it away.

I like this a lot and have been thinking the same thing.

However, I think once we get Lenzy and Austin into the mix (hopefully FSU week?), he'll have a hell of a lot more confidence.

I gotta think Mayer Lenzy and Austin, with Tyree and Kyren in the backfield are plenty of weapons. He just needs to feel some skill has his back.

 

[NDRock]

One thing I’d really like to see them do more of is put him under Center. His footwork out of the gun is crazy bad right now. Get him under Center so he has a certain number of steps in his drop, plant, and deliver. If it’s not there, throw it away.

What’s the benefit of having a 3rd year starter if he can’t get past the first read? If that’s all you can get out of your QB then we should have started Phil and had him run if his 1st option wasn’t there.

 

[Irish#1]

First game and we're ready to FIRE BOOK!

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Notre Dame oline was rated top line performance this week by PFF. So there you go.

Did they eliminate the first half?

 

[ThePiombino]

First game and we're ready to FIRE BOOK!

I mean I get the sarcasm, but if you're OK with 3rd year Book looking just as effective as 1st year Book then I don't know what to tell you. He missed A LOT of opportunities throughout the game. Misses that were no one's fault but his own. And what really grinds my gears, even more than the 100MPH check downs to a receiver 7 yards away from him or gross inaccuracy, is the scramble OOB for a 3 yard loss when all he has to do is toss it away. Just shows he's not thinking out there. Like at all.

 

[NDdomer2]

after a rewatch yesterday, i had completely forgot how bad the punting was. after an initial great punt it was two mini shanks followed by a line drive pass to put them inside the 50. We were lucky to only have that turn into an additional 7 points. Good teams will take advantage of those opportunities.

I think Lax or Lucky put it simply with Book. It's the fact were talking about some of these plays in his third year as a starter.

Missing wide open check downs, running out of bounds for a loss, turning it over in the red zone, bad footwork/leaving pocket too early are all things you can't have at this point.

I do think we have the talent at WR, especially when we get everyone back healthy. Joe Wilkins will seemingly get more playing time from the combo of his play and Skowronek injury.

Defense is fun to watch and I'm happy to hear that Hamilton escaped major injury. With two should win games and bye week upcoming no hurry to rush him back.

 

[Free Manera]

after a rewatch yesterday, i had completely forgot how bad the punting was. after an initial great punt it was two mini shanks followed by a line drive pass to put them inside the 50. We were lucky to only have that turn into an additional 7 points. Good teams will take advantage of those opportunities.

I think Lax or Lucky put it simply with Book. It's the fact were talking about some of these plays in his third year as a starter.

Missing wide open check downs, running out of bounds for a loss, turning it over in the red zone, bad footwork/leaving pocket too early are all things you can't have at this point.

I do think we have the talent at WR, especially when we get everyone back healthy. Joe Wilkins will seemingly get more playing time from the combo of his play and Skowronek injury.

Defense is fun to watch and I'm happy to hear that Hamilton escaped major injury. With two should win games and bye week upcoming no hurry to rush him back.

That one right there is the most brutal. He plays like he has PTSD from getting crushed 20 times a game, but he hasn't been crushed 20 times a game. In fact he usually stays pretty clean.

I think he needs a sports psychologist to help him learn to handle anxiety and remain aware. I have to think these things don't happen in practice and it is a gameday thing. The problem is it is impossible to replicate the nerves and emotions of gameday. A psychologist could prepare him for it much better than practice reps ever could. It is clearly an issue though, and it is going to ruin any hopes of a pro career if he doesn't figure it out. His feet are a complete mess.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I'd like to chalk Books inadequacies this weekend up to the Corona event but it is his third year now. How do qbs keep regressing under Kelly over multiple years?

 

[Ndaccountant]

Did they eliminate the first half?

I think some clarification is needed. They graded out the second best, but was named as their OL of the week. It appears it was all for pass blocking though....

Notre Dame was our No. 1 offensive line heading into the year, and they proved yesterday that they truly are the best. Of all the teams to play in Week 2, no offensive line produced a higher combined pass-block grade than that of the Irish. The fact they did that logging more true pass sets than any of the team is impressive (over 50% of their plays).

The Irish were able to keep Chris Rumph, our top pass-rusher in college football entering the year, relatively quiet for most of the game — of his 16 pass-rushes, he had just three pressures (with one being a cleanup). Two of those three were hurries while one was a hit on Book on a slick counter-inside spin.

They also had this to say about ND (which is echoing all of the "pessimists" on the board....

Notre Dame is a great team, but I'm not sure they're significantly better than they have been of late, and I'm really not sure about their ability to beat a team like Clemson.

Ian Book has always padded his season stats in the games against the poor, non-Power Five schools. In 2019, Book produced a 92.9 passing grade in three games against non-Power Five schools (Navy, New Mexico and Bowling Green). Against Power Five competition, that mark dropped to 67.6, and his struggles against competent defenses showed against Duke.

Book and the Irish passing attack produced -0.130 EPA per pass play against the Blue Devils. That was just the sixth game in the Book era that they failed to produce positive EPA on pass plays (other five defenses were Pitt, Clemson, Virginia, Georgia, Michigan). That metric also speaks volumes about the lack of receiving threats on the roster.

Tight ends Tommy Tremble and Michael Mayer aren’t bad options for Book, but their current set of wide receivers didn’t cut it against Duke and won’t cut it against most of the defenses they’ll face.

Northwestern transfer Ben Skowronek had the most experience of any wide receiver, and he ended up getting hurt in the game. And it’s not like he has a proven track record of success, either (career-high receiving grade 66.2). Last year Book had the 6-foot-4, 227-pound Chase Claypool, who routinely won contested targets and was tough to bring down after the catch. Book also had Chris Finke, who was a trustworthy underneath option and one that could find a hole in zone coverage for an open target. Yesterday, it was apparent that he missed the two.

Book’s underneath passing has always been great, but we wanted to see him take more shots downfield heading in 2020. However, his already conservative play was on a whole new level against Duke, and you have to contribute part of that to the lack of separators. His average depth of target was just 5.1 yards downfield, his lowest in a game in his entire college career by half a yard.

https://www.pff.com/news/college-fo...aways-weekly-awards-team-of-the-week-and-more

 

[SoIll]

not to say it was ever good, but ever since his kidney/rib injury, the happy feet and panic is so much worse.

 

[Irishman77]

First game and we're ready to FIRE BOOK!

After seeing him regress all last year I was ready to move on. Seems he continues the path that all Kelly QB’s go down. But we will still eat all the bad teams and have a good record.

 

[Wingman Ray]

Fact is that he is not a NFL talent. If ND expects him to be, then it will continue to be disappointed. Book was a 3 star which is somewhere around where Miss St gets their QBs at. Sadly, this guy has started for three years which really just proves Kelly's inability to develop and recruit the position.

Book will win the easy and middle games and lose the tough opponent games. Same story every year. That is what 3 star QBs do.

You want to win the big games? Get a big time QB and develop his skills.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Week one:

Clemson 185 yards rushing
Notre Dame 178 yards rushing
Oklahoma 124 yards rushing

Clemson 4.0 yards per rush
Notre Dame 4.2 yards per rush

Etienne 102 yards rushing
Williams 112 yards rushing

.... cry me a River.


.... some idiots chose us number one OLine.
WHAT were THEY thinking?

 

[Irishize]

For all you guys complaining about the OL a few things I want to point out.

1. Chris Rumph is a stud and a top 20 NFL draft pick. And I thought he was held in check most of the day. Rumph would be the best DE on Notre Dame, just saying. He was the number 1 DE according to PFF in 2019.

2. Remember Hainsey and Kramer have not seen game action in nearly a year.

3. With no spring practice, limited fall camp where there were many disruptions the OL hasn’t had a chance to be a cohesive unit yet. And again Kramer and Hainsey have not been in live action in 10+ months.

4. You have to give credit to Duke, as their Dline is the strength of their team.


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IIRC, the OL committed zero penalties. That’s impressive considering all the false starts we’ve been accustomed too but even more impressive is zero holding calls.

The OL seemed to do fine containing the space between the tackles, it was the edges where they were vulnerable. Some of that was Tremble & Tyree missing assignments or just whiffing. Book’s happy feet mad the OL look less stout in pass pro than reality IMO. If Book had better field vision he would have avoided scrambling to the sideline for a 3 yd loss & split the center of the field b/c there was lots of daylight.

I agree w/ Lucci regarding more plays under center. It should give him & the offense more time while the opposing LB try to read run/pass.

I loved the 3rd & long play call for Book to run the delay draw. It would’ve been a huge gain had Banks held his block but he allowed the defender to slide off the block and tackle Book by the ankles as he ran by.

The one sack I remember was not on the OL. Reportedly, Tyree missed his assignment and didn’t have Book’s blind side as the defender came off the edge unobstructed. Meanwhile Eichenberg easily held his DL at bay.

Ironic that a few years ago Wimbush struggled w/ short passing & that was one of the factors for Book winning the job. Then Saturday, Book rushes the wide open short passes on multiple occasions. Those should’ve been slam dunks.

 

[GowerND11]

Did they eliminate the first half?

When you rewatch the first half we see the OL is playing just fine. Book scrambled into some of the pressures, Williams missed two key reads on where to cut, and Tremble (I believe) blew an assignment on a run as well.

 

[NDRock]

I think some clarification is needed. They graded out the second best, but was named as their OL of the week. It appears it was all for pass blocking though....

They also had this to say about ND (which is echoing all of the "pessimists" on the board....

https://www.pff.com/news/college-fo...aways-weekly-awards-team-of-the-week-and-more

Very good write up by them. Completely agree that we’re a very good team (they said great) but are no closer to being elite than we were the last few years.

 

[NDdomer2]

I will say there was a third and short where we brought in J Smith and i think everyone and their brother's wives knew we were going to hammer it up the middle. Historically, and even under Heistand, we get stuffed in those situations. OLine made a great push and we picked it up with ease.

Very nice to see.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

I’m waiting to hold judgement on Book and the team overall until they have played 3 games. Covid 19 has really messed up any bit of continuity. I’m really hoping Books performance was due to rust and not having enough practices with the first team offense. So by game 3 I hope Book will be playing like he did at the end of last year, after the Va Tech game, or even better than that.


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[Sherm Sticky]

I will say there was a third and short where we brought in J Smith and i think everyone and their brother's wives knew we were going to hammer it up the middle. Historically, and even under Heistand, we get stuffed in those situations. OLine made a great push and we picked it up with ease.

Very nice to see.

Yes. I know what play you are referring to. They needed to get 1 yard and got 5. It’s nice going under center in short yardage right?


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[Ndaccountant]

Week one:

Clemson 185 yards rushing
Notre Dame 178 yards rushing
Oklahoma 124 yards rushing

Clemson 4.0 yards per rush
Notre Dame 4.2 yards per rush

Etienne 102 yards rushing
Williams 112 yards rushing

.... cry me a River.


.... some idiots chose us number one OLine.
WHAT were THEY thinking?

Except that they chose them as line of the week for pass pro, not running.

As far as your comparison is concerned, did you watch the Clemson game? Clemson was up 27-0 at the half and scored early in the 3rd and called off the dogs. Etienne could have had 200+ if they played him the whole game. Lawerence made a bone headed decision that cost them 16 yards rushing in your stat above. They go up to 4.5 yards without that play, which was not the fault of Clemson O-line. Likewise, the fake punt yardage padded ND's rushing stats. Without that fake, the average drops to 4. Stats aside, Clemson had their way with Wake. I am sure ND will too, but I think ND will fail to match Clemson's 1H 7.1 yards per play against Wake.

 

[IrishLax]

I think some clarification is needed. They graded out the second best, but was named as their OL of the week. It appears it was all for pass blocking though....

They also had this to say about ND (which is echoing all of the "pessimists" on the board....

https://www.pff.com/news/college-fo...aways-weekly-awards-team-of-the-week-and-more

They were consistent in pass protection all day, which is part of what made Ian Book's happy feet even more maddening.

I agree with their assessment of ND. I think the defense... assuming Hamilton gets back healthy, and everyone stays healthy in the secondary... is good enough to win a championship. I think that the offense is WAY off the mark, because of talent issues at WR and QB. Contrast to every other playoff contender it's not really close. We know the QB situation isn't changing, and what we have to hope is that with Austin and Lenzy back at some point that WR is takes a big step forward. I'm not sure how much it matters though if the QB can't or won't throw down field.

 

[ThePiombino]

I'd like to chalk Books inadequacies this weekend up to the Corona event but it is his third year now. How do qbs keep regressing under Kelly over multiple years?

I don't think he's regressed. I just think he peaked and plateued two years ago. He's every bit the 3* QB we thought he was. I think it's more of an indictment that ND couldn't manage to land and develop a better option over the past three years than what Book can/can't do by now.

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[IrishLax]

I don't think he's regressed. I just think he peaked and plateued two years ago. He's every bit the 3* QB we thought he was. I think it's more of an indictment that ND couldn't manage to land and develop a better option over the past three years than what Book can/can't do by now.

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Also, you see Ohio State/Georgia/Alabama/Oklahoma/etc. aggressively pursue transfers. ND doesn't do that. Kelly has yet to recruit an elite QB in 10 years, or find another way to get one on the roster. Sure, many of them are rated as "elite," but they're not even close to as good as their rankings. Book is at least exceeding his ranking, which is a rarity.

IMO, ND's problem isn't development... most of the guys look their BEST here and then look much worse when they move on... it's talent identification.

'11 -- Golson. Inconsistent, undersized. Did worse at FSU.
'12 -- Kiel. Transferred after he couldn't win starting job. Was OK at Cincinnati, had off-the-field issues there and did not make the NFL.
'13 -- Zaire. Had his only successful plays at ND, failed at Florida.
'14 -- Kizer. Played well enough in Kelly's offense to get drafted in the 2nd round, then washed out of the NFL.
'15 -- Wimbush. Inaccurate passer, lost his job to Book. Got beat out by a bad QB at Central Florida and did not make it to the NFL.
'16 -- Ian Book. Current starter, physically limited, likely to be a UDFA or late round NFL draft pick.
'17 -- Avery Davis. Position switch.
'18 -- Jurkovec. This is one to follow, because we don't know what he will or won't do at BC.
'19 -- Clark. Unknown.
'20 -- Pyne. Unknown.

On that list, I don't see a single one where there was a "development" issue. The so-called regression seems to be more that Kelly puts lipstick on a pig which makes them look artificially better than they are until opponents learn how to attack their weaknesses. For example, Ian Book torched teams for a couple weeks... now teams basically dare him to throw deep and try to sit on the short and intermediate stuff, and they also try to force him to stay in the pocket.

TLDR: I think the bigger issue is the players being recruited rather than the development of the players once they get here. There are very few players you can point to and say "that guy would've been a stud with better coaching!"

 

[tussin]

They were consistent in pass protection all day, which is part of what made Ian Book's happy feet even more maddening.

I agree with their assessment of ND. I think the defense... assuming Hamilton gets back healthy, and everyone stays healthy in the secondary... is good enough to win a championship. I think that the offense is WAY off the mark, because of talent issues at WR and QB. Contrast to every other playoff contender it's not really close. We know the QB situation isn't changing, and what we have to hope is that with Austin and Lenzy back at some point that WR is takes a big step forward. I'm not sure how much it matters though if the QB can't or won't throw down field.

Yeah, the hope is that the WR position will look like a completely different unit in 5 weeks with Austin, Lenzy, and others back in the fold.

Why can't Jordan Johnson come in and contribute? He's our best WR recruit since maybe Floyd and my understanding has always been that WR is not a position with a comparatively steep learning curve.

All that said, we still had receivers streaking wide open against Duke and Book just missed them. He's not a championship caliber QB unfortunately.

 

[Ndaccountant]

They were consistent in pass protection all day, which is part of what made Ian Book's happy feet even more maddening.

I agree with their assessment of ND. I think the defense... assuming Hamilton gets back healthy, and everyone stays healthy in the secondary... is good enough to win a championship. I think that the offense is WAY off the mark, because of talent issues at WR and QB. Contrast to every other playoff contender it's not really close. We know the QB situation isn't changing, and what we have to hope is that with Austin and Lenzy back at some point that WR is takes a big step forward. I'm not sure how much it matters though if the QB can't or won't throw down field.

That stat of EPA on Book is wild (for those unfamiliar, EPA measures the expected points ND was to score before the play and after the play. In other words, on average, ND was expected to score less after each time Book threw).

In ESPN's QBR breakdown, Book ranks 34 out of 44 for PAA (points Book contributed to ND above an "average" QB). His raw score was -1.3 against Duke.

For reference, he was -1.8 against UGA, -6.4 against Michigan 0.3 against USC last year. His best game was 11.0 against Navy. He ended up finishing the year in the top 25.

But in a stat that may only interest me, Tua had an accumulated PAA of 69 on 302 total plays. That was good enough to rank him 7th for the year. His PAA per play was .228 compared to Burrow's .220 and Books .092. This isn't to say Book sucks and he needs benched. It's more just supporting the conclusion that PFF came to.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Also, you see Ohio State/Georgia/Alabama/Oklahoma/etc. aggressively pursue transfers. ND doesn't do that. Kelly has yet to recruit an elite QB in 10 years, or find another way to get one on the roster. Sure, many of them are rated as "elite," but they're not even close to as good as their rankings. Book is at least exceeding his ranking, which is a rarity.

IMO, ND's problem isn't development... most of the guys look their BEST here and then look much worse when they move on... it's talent identification.

'11 -- Golson. Inconsistent, undersized. Did worse at FSU.
'12 -- Kiel. Transferred after he couldn't win starting job. Was OK at Cincinnati, had off-the-field issues there and did not make the NFL.
'13 -- Zaire. Had his only successful plays at ND, failed at Florida.
'14 -- Kizer. Played well enough in Kelly's offense to get drafted in the 2nd round, then washed out of the NFL.
'15 -- Wimbush. Inaccurate passer, lost his job to Book. Got beat out by a bad QB at Central Florida and did not make it to the NFL.
'16 -- Ian Book. Current starter, physically limited, likely to be a UDFA or late round NFL draft pick.
'17 -- Avery Davis. Position switch.
'18 -- Jurkovec. This is one to follow, because we don't know what he will or won't do at BC.
'19 -- Clark. Unknown.
'20 -- Pyne. Unknown.

On that list, I don't see a single one where there was a "development" issue. The so-called regression seems to be more that Kelly puts lipstick on a pig which makes them look artificially better than they are until opponents learn how to attack their weaknesses. For example, Ian Book torched teams for a couple weeks... now teams basically dare him to throw deep and try to sit on the short and intermediate stuff, and they also try to force him to stay in the pocket.

TLDR: I think the bigger issue is the players being recruited rather than the development of the players once they get here. There are very few players you can point to and say "that guy would've been a stud with better coaching!"

I think this point is the crux of it. I use the term regression probably poorly (wrongly).

 

[Irish#1]

I’m waiting to hold judgement on Book and the team overall until they have played 3 games. Covid 19 has really messed up any bit of continuity. I’m really hoping Books performance was due to rust and not having enough practices with the first team offense. So by game 3 I hope Book will be playing like he did at the end of last year, after the Va Tech game, or even better than that.


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This. I'll wait just a little before I throw him under the bus. No spring practice or summer workouts to work with a new group of receivers. Don't get me wrong, Book could have done better, but some of his happy feet was receivers not getting open.

 

[Armyirish47]

Also, you see Ohio State/Georgia/Alabama/Oklahoma/etc. aggressively pursue transfers. ND doesn't do that. Kelly has yet to recruit an elite QB in 10 years, or find another way to get one on the roster. Sure, many of them are rated as "elite," but they're not even close to as good as their rankings. Book is at least exceeding his ranking, which is a rarity.

IMO, ND's problem isn't development... most of the guys look their BEST here and then look much worse when they move on... it's talent identification.

'11 -- Golson. Inconsistent, undersized. Did worse at FSU.
'12 -- Kiel. Transferred after he couldn't win starting job. Was OK at Cincinnati, had off-the-field issues there and did not make the NFL.
'13 -- Zaire. Had his only successful plays at ND, failed at Florida.
'14 -- Kizer. Played well enough in Kelly's offense to get drafted in the 2nd round, then washed out of the NFL.
'15 -- Wimbush. Inaccurate passer, lost his job to Book. Got beat out by a bad QB at Central Florida and did not make it to the NFL.
'16 -- Ian Book. Current starter, physically limited, likely to be a UDFA or late round NFL draft pick.
'17 -- Avery Davis. Position switch.
'18 -- Jurkovec. This is one to follow, because we don't know what he will or won't do at BC.
'19 -- Clark. Unknown.
'20 -- Pyne. Unknown.

On that list, I don't see a single one where there was a "development" issue. The so-called regression seems to be more that Kelly puts lipstick on a pig which makes them look artificially better than they are until opponents learn how to attack their weaknesses. For example, Ian Book torched teams for a couple weeks... now teams basically dare him to throw deep and try to sit on the short and intermediate stuff, and they also try to force him to stay in the pocket.

TLDR: I think the bigger issue is the players being recruited rather than the development of the players once they get here. There are very few players you can point to and say "that guy would've been a stud with better coaching!"

I think this is a great point. Kudos.

One thing I'm always curious about too is the delayed impact recruiting "elite" QBs has on Notre Dame in particular when it comes to recruiting QBs in future classes.

Kiel was can't miss so does he put a cap on our recruiting for a couple years? Wimbush was #60 overall on rivals and does that put a lid on? Same with 5 star Phil leading to Clark and Pyne. And drumroll.....here we go again with can't miss Buchner?

I also gotta say, looking at QB recruiting rankings over the years...what a crapshoot most years are. Oof.

 

[NDRock]

Also, you see Ohio State/Georgia/Alabama/Oklahoma/etc. aggressively pursue transfers. ND doesn't do that. Kelly has yet to recruit an elite QB in 10 years, or find another way to get one on the roster. Sure, many of them are rated as "elite," but they're not even close to as good as their rankings. Book is at least exceeding his ranking, which is a rarity.

IMO, ND's problem isn't development... most of the guys look their BEST here and then look much worse when they move on... it's talent identification.

'11 -- Golson. Inconsistent, undersized. Did worse at FSU.
'12 -- Kiel. Transferred after he couldn't win starting job. Was OK at Cincinnati, had off-the-field issues there and did not make the NFL.
'13 -- Zaire. Had his only successful plays at ND, failed at Florida.
'14 -- Kizer. Played well enough in Kelly's offense to get drafted in the 2nd round, then washed out of the NFL.
'15 -- Wimbush. Inaccurate passer, lost his job to Book. Got beat out by a bad QB at Central Florida and did not make it to the NFL.
'16 -- Ian Book. Current starter, physically limited, likely to be a UDFA or late round NFL draft pick.
'17 -- Avery Davis. Position switch.
'18 -- Jurkovec. This is one to follow, because we don't know what he will or won't do at BC.
'19 -- Clark. Unknown.
'20 -- Pyne. Unknown.

On that list, I don't see a single one where there was a "development" issue. The so-called regression seems to be more that Kelly puts lipstick on a pig which makes them look artificially better than they are until opponents learn how to attack their weaknesses. For example, Ian Book torched teams for a couple weeks... now teams basically dare him to throw deep and try to sit on the short and intermediate stuff, and they also try to force him to stay in the pocket.

TLDR: I think the bigger issue is the players being recruited rather than the development of the players once they get here. There are very few players you can point to and say "that guy would've been a stud with better coaching!"

This is why people should care about recruiting. If we truly want to win a championship, our current recruiting won't cut it. Looking at 247's recruiting, Duke is closer to our talent level than we are to Georgia, Alabama, and Ohio State. Puts things in a little perspective.

I actually think our staff develops talent well.