Duke Post Game

Irishize

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40% of oline is backups, road game, already two loses so out of playoffs.

And the teams winning 38-7.

And as someone else noted earlier in this thread...sometimes ND has enough misses on the recruiting trail that leave them behind the 8-ball as far as talent at certain positions.

Great kids I’m sure, but our poor RB corps wouldn’t sniff the 2nd team on any legit CFP contender. The starting QB was a 3-star previously committed to Wazzu. As great as Claypool & Kmet have been (and I don’t want to understate that...they’re awesome), ND hasn’t had another pass catcher step up. Meanwhile, Minnesota has legit size & speed at every WR position.

Recruiting is a crapshoot. Let’s hope the next few years can avoid rolling snake eyes.
 

ulukinatme

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I don't blame Kelly for quitting the chase for elite skill position players. When you look at the ones that have come to ND, they tend not to pan out. Either they struggle with grades, or they get into trouble, or they just don't live up to the hype. That's gotta be frustrating.
 

fightingirish26

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I don't blame Kelly for quitting the chase for elite skill position players. When you look at the ones that have come to ND, they tend not to pan out. Either they struggle with grades, or they get into trouble, or they just don't live up to the hype. That's gotta be frustrating.

Guess you're not following ND recruiting lately
 

Junkhead

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Positives: we won
Negatives: I couldn’t watch because ACCN isn’t a thing in much of the country

I don't get ACCN through comcast. I signed up for a YouTube Live free trial, watched it, and already canceled.
 

ulukinatme

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Guess you're not following ND recruiting lately

Yeah, we got a couple good ones for next year...hopefully. We'll see how that pans out. Seemed like Kelly wasn't chasing big skill position players for some time, or they just weren't coming. Felt like Davonte Neal was the last big skill signee other than some QBs.
 

nd_fan

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I don't get ACCN through comcast. I signed up for a YouTube Live free trial, watched it, and already canceled.

Big mistake. Cable companies are expensive after the first year promotion deals run out. Youtube TV is amazing with unlimited DVR and you can have 6 members in your household no matter the location with their own account and password.
 

NDdomer2

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And as someone else noted earlier in this thread...sometimes ND has enough misses on the recruiting trail that leave them behind the 8-ball as far as talent at certain positions.

Great kids I’m sure, but our poor RB corps wouldn’t sniff the 2nd team on any legit CFP contender. The starting QB was a 3-star previously committed to Wazzu. As great as Claypool & Kmet have been (and I don’t want to understate that...they’re awesome), ND hasn’t had another pass catcher step up. Meanwhile, Minnesota has legit size & speed at every WR position.

Recruiting is a crapshoot. Let’s hope the next few years can avoid rolling snake eyes.

Maybe I'm missing it but what does this gta do with my post?
 

Irishize

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Maybe I'm missing it but what does this gta do with my post?

That in addition to losing 40% of the OL (as you stated in your post), ND lacks any real threats at RB, QB and pass catchers behind CLaypool & Kmet.
 

Irish#1

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Geez, we blow out a lesser opponent on the road and the sky is falling. Two things I'll keep repeating until you Debby Downers put me on ignore.

1. Quit comparing how one team beat another and we only beat them by (insert points here). I'll repeat it again. Lou has said many times, the team you have isn't the same team you had earlier in the year or the week before. Same applies for the opponent.

2. Who here predicted a 10-2 or better season? Most everyone including analysis had us at 8-4 or 9-3. We're ahead of those predictions.

There is room for improvement, but to complain like the record is 2-7, 3-6 or 5-4 is so tiring.
 

IrishLion

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The issues with scheme, talent, and depth will all be on display next week against a VERY GOOD Navy team.

Next year should be an open competition on the OL with a scheme that emphasizes zone blocking, power, and toughness. I doubt that happens but it’s my dream. Realistically we aren’t going to see significant improvement on the OL until ‘21 and that’s only if some of the new recruits pan out.

If Long leaves, the best-case scenario (outside of offering a shitload of money to someone currently established as an OC), IMO, is promoting Quinn and letting him work with BK.

If that happens, there's a realllllly good chance that ND would be switching to a zone blocking scheme.

UC's specialty with BK/Quinn calling things was to wash the defensive front down with zone blocking, and let the RB's make one cut against the grain. It really did a good job of creating chunk plays, but also reduced negative plays because of how defenses had to respond to it.
 

IrishLion

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As for the game:

1. Really encouraging offensive performance against a defensive unit that actually rates pretty well. We need that version of Book and Finke to finish with 10 wins, so hopefully that was a good confidence booster for those guys.

2. Idk if I've ever felt as bad for someone as I did for Finke when they showed his face after that 80-yard reception getting called back for holding.

3. Okwara. Fuck.

4. Drew White played really well. Hopefully another confidence booster, because he's gonna need to be on his game next week (same for Bilal and JOK, but I think those guys are both well-suited to defend the triple option).

5. The interior DL is really starting to come together. It seems like guys are getting comfortable in the rotation, and the middle of the pocket is collapsing quicker/more often lately. That's good.

6. Troy Pride... TURNED HIS HEAD AROUND AND GOT A PICK. I was begging for him to make the house call. That was good to see after a rough season thus far.

7. Bracy played really well.

8. The running game was fine, IMO. I know it got stuffed in some frustrating situations, but Duke was crashing playside gaps aggressively, which is why Book had 130+ yards on the ground. Taking some minimal gains is necessary when you know the QB runs will be there on the backside, which Long and Co. clearly did.

9. Jahmir Smith is amazing when he's running between the tackles. When you ask him to run outside, he has zero vision. Maybe only play him inside the 10-yard line, and give C'Bo some more work?

10. Javon McKinley's blocking is inspiring. Dude just works and hustles. He nearly caught up to Brock Wright to help seal off the last defender on Book's first long run. Good stuff.
 

NDdomer2

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That in addition to losing 40% of the OL (as you stated in your post), ND lacks any real threats at RB, QB and pass catchers behind CLaypool & Kmet.

ok, you're saying and we still won convincingly. I'm with you now thanks for clearing up, reps.
 

NEIIrish

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Fuck off dude. Go ride a dick

giphy.gif
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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Tough crowd.

Beating the tar out of Duke who was at home and coming off a bye week gives me a lot more optimism about how the team finishes this season. The defense looked very strong again. Duke averaged just over 3 yards per play and only converted 4 of 19 on third and fourth downs.

I would have liked to see more from the passing game one of these days but that's a pretty good offensive output for a team with no running backs and recovering from the recent loss of two starters on the OLine.

I have to wonder if running the quarterback was extra effective because it simplified the blocking schemes and didn't rely on any pulling linemen to run 15 yards and find somebody to block.
 

stlnd01

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10. Javon McKinley's blocking is inspiring. Dude just works and hustles. He nearly caught up to Brock Wright to help seal off the last defender on Book's first long run. Good stuff.

I know Javon’s not lighting up the stat sheets and he’s never gonna play on Sundays but he is one of my favorite stories of this season. He could have easily quit - or been run off - after his episode this spring. But he didn’t - and BK didn’t run him off - and he got a shot to play and now he’s out there helping win football games however he can. Like you said, good stuff.
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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I know Javon’s not lighting up the stat sheets and he’s never gonna play on Sundays but he is one of my favorite stories of this season. He could have easily quit - or been run off - after his episode this spring. But he didn’t - and BK didn’t run him off - and he got a shot to play and now he’s out there helping win football games however he can. Like you said, good stuff.

IIRC, he also had a huge clearout block for Book's winning touchdown against Virginia Tech.
 

IrishLion

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I know Javon’s not lighting up the stat sheets and he’s never gonna play on Sundays but he is one of my favorite stories of this season. He could have easily quit - or been run off - after his episode this spring. But he didn’t - and BK didn’t run him off - and he got a shot to play and now he’s out there helping win football games however he can. Like you said, good stuff.

IIRC, he also had a huge clearout block for Book's winning touchdown against Virginia Tech.

Sealed off not one, but TWO defenders, allowing Book to make the outside cut against VT.

Then he sealed his man off with a nice (but legal!) crackback against Duke, and then saw Book hauling ass, so he started hauling ass to catch up and try to get to the last defender with Brock Wright.

That's the type of hustle that gets your teammates jacked up, and he's gonna get major props during film sessions today.
 

BobbyMac

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IIRC, he also had a huge clearout block for Book's winning touchdown against Virginia Tech.

Took out two guys. Being a CB with him and Claypool out there must reeeally suck.

Too bad they make the OL run around like ballerinas getting cute with their schemes while they let the WR's man ball DB's into the fetal position.
 

IrishLax

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Took out two guys. Being a CB with him and Claypool out there must reeeally suck.

Too bad they make the OL run around like ballerinas getting cute with their schemes while they let the WR's man ball DB's into the fetal position.

This. So much this.
 

Irish2155

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Geez, we blow out a lesser opponent on the road and the sky is falling. Two things I'll keep repeating until you Debby Downers put me on ignore.

1. Quit comparing how one team beat another and we only beat them by (insert points here). I'll repeat it again. Lou has said many times, the team you have isn't the same team you had earlier in the year or the week before. Same applies for the opponent.

2. Who here predicted a 10-2 or better season? Most everyone including analysis had us at 8-4 or 9-3. We're ahead of those predictions.

There is room for improvement, but to complain like the record is 2-7, 3-6 or 5-4 is so tiring.

Be careful...you're starting to sound like SouthernIndianaNDFan. :)
 

ThePiombino

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This. So much this.
You've brought attention to this before. Do you think that the best thing that can happen for this offense next year is for Quinn to take over OC duties? I believe the prevailing thought is that he would bring back the Cincinnati blocking scheme which involved more zone blocking and less pulling from our jumbos.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 

dad4aa

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You've brought attention to this before. Do you think that the best thing that can happen for this offense next year is for Quinn to take over OC duties? I believe the prevailing thought is that he would bring back the Cincinnati blocking scheme which involved more zone blocking and less pulling from our jumbos.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

You brought this up before and I have no understanding of blocking schemes. My question is did this work at Cindy bc they played lesser talented teams and it wouldn’t work against athletic teams like Clemson and Bama or would this scheme work against the better teams as well? Thanks.
 

IrishLion

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You've brought attention to this before. Do you think that the best thing that can happen for this offense next year is for Quinn to take over OC duties? I believe the prevailing thought is that he would bring back the Cincinnati blocking scheme which involved more zone blocking and less pulling from our jumbos.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

giphy.gif


If Long leaves, the best-case scenario (outside of offering a shitload of money to someone currently established as an OC), IMO, is promoting Quinn and letting him work with BK.

If that happens, there's a realllllly good chance that ND would be switching to a zone blocking scheme.

UC's specialty with BK/Quinn calling things was to wash the defensive front down with zone blocking, and let the RB's make one cut against the grain. It really did a good job of creating chunk plays, but also reduced negative plays because of how defenses had to respond to it.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Post-Duke Rakes Report:

1) I do not want to overplay Saturday’s domination of the Blue Devils, but I also do not want Notre Dame fans to just dismiss this out of hand and say that Duke was terrible so who cares if the Irish waxed them. The Vegas line on this game was just seven points and Notre Dame won by 31. Duke came into Saturday night with the 37th ranked defense in the SP+ and the 30th ranked defense in the FEI and the Irish offense could have pushed for 50 if it wanted. If we update the Top 25 Wins of the Brian Kelly Era this game is going to be nowhere near the list but after the debacle in Ann Arbor and the close call last week, it was nice to just put the boots to a legitimate team on the road.

2) Ian Book played his best game of the season against a Power 5 opponent, throwing for four scores and rushing for 149 yards. The numbers were fine but he just looked better, starting with the third down strike to Chris Finke on the first touchdown drive. He was much more decisive in the run game and perhaps most importantly there were multiple plays where he started to scramble, didn’t panic and directed some pass attempts downfield. They weren’t all completions (Chase Claypool should teach a seminar on sideline acrobatics) but he kept plays alive and gave his guys chances. Perhaps Notre Dame fans being so noxious that Book had to disable comments on his Instagram and stop checking Twitter was just the motivation he needed to get back on track*, because if he plays like this for the next three games there’s a really good chance the Irish finish 10-2.

* If you insult Notre Dame players on social media you are deeply, deeply diseased.

It was also nice to see Finke have a breakout game after a much-maligned senior season, pulling in 5 catches for 49 yards and two scores in addition to a 46-yard punt return and a 78-yard reception that would have likely resulted in a 28-0 margin wiped out by an iffy holding. Is he getting back to 2018 levels as well? That would be useful. Chase Claypool was great yet again (5 for 97 and a score) while George Takacs got his first career touchdown reception (although Brock Wright appeared to be slightly more open on the play). The sophomore running back duo of Jahmir Smith and C'Borius Flemister showed some flash, combining to go 83 yards on 13 carries (a little over 6 per) and a score on a night when neither Tony Jones nor Jafar Armstrong were particularly effective. This offense isn’t going to set any records but it has the potential to get the job done the rest of the way, particularly if they get Braden Lenzy back into the mix after he missed the trip to Durham for what Brian Kelly said was fatigue.

3) The Duke offense was pretty wretched coming into this game but they were completely immolated by the Irish front. The Blue Devils got a first down on their first play from scrimmage and followed that up with 15 plays and five punts, their second first down not coming until it was already 21-0. A lot of credit should go to the linebacking crew of Drew White, JOK and Asmar Bilal, who took down Duke’s rushing attack, although they had assistance from some great defensive line play. Alohi Gilman and Kyle Hamilton both had some key tackles when the game was still in doubt, Troy Pride had a pick and this really was just absolute destruction. Overall, Notre Dame held Duke to 3.2 yards per snap, keeping an ACC opponent under four yards per offensive play and doubling them up in first downs for the second straight game.

In brutal news, Julian Okwara injured his leg and is done for the season, ending his Notre Dame career. While Okwara didn’t put up absurd stats this year, I think we may discover going forward how much his mere presence on the field was affecting the game plan of the opposition. Plus, we’ll always have the Virginia game, which Okwara almost won single-handedly. It’s nice that the Irish came into the fall with good depth at defensive line but I much prefer a universe where two of the best three ends (Okwara and Daelin Hayes) don’t go down. Jack Lamb, who had done solid work as a passing down linebacker, is also out for the season. Injuries are really starting to pile up and now we see if the depth we thought this program had been building can persevere through four more games.

4) Jay Bramblett didn’t have the best night punting the ball, but he still has the immunity idol he earned with last week’s game-winning hold so that’s all we’ll say about his evening. Jonathan Doerer made a 34-yarder and is now a Jeri Ryan-esque 7-of-9 on field goals this season and remains perfect in all 37 extra point attempts. Notre Dame has scored on 92% of red zone appearances (good for 16th in the nation) and has an 81% touchdown rate (good for 6th). If you're wondering which team has the best touchdown rate and the 4th best scoring rate, well, you'll get to see them play the Irish on Saturday.

5) Winning Is Hard/Schadenfreude Round Up: What a fun day of college football. Alabama vs. LSU lived up to the hype in every way, with the Tide falling at home to the Coach O/Joe Burrow show. (Thank you, USC, for going with Sark over O.) The teams were loaded with talent but I hope Notre Dame fans watched and saw some shoddy tackling, plenty of special teams errors and two offensive coordinators who weren’t interested in running the ball for the first half of the game. Alabama lost this game, which I remind you has to happen when two teams play per the current rules of college football.

Penn State lost at Minnesota and did a bunch of stuff you love to see (going for two in the third quarter, end zone fades on fourth and goal, refusing to cover Minnesota receivers) and James Franklin is now 1-7 on the road against ranked teams. Baylor needed a 51-yard field goal to force three overtimes to overcome TCU and remain undefeated while Oklahoma nearly blew a 21-point lead but survived an Iowa State two-point conversion attempt to stay in the playoff hunt.

Michigan State was up 28-3 against Illinois and had a three-touchdown lead going into the fourth quarter and lost at home, which is not ideal unless you’re an Illini fan because your team is now on a four-game winning streak and bowl eligible. Northwestern scored 22 points, their most in a Big Ten game so far this season but ah Purdue scored 24 and now the Wildcats are 1-8. (Shoutout Jeff Brohm for managing to pull his team out of what looked like a tailspin.) I would have absolutely made fun of Texas for losing at home to Kansas State so to be fair I will compliment for pulling out a gutty win against a good team. 7-1 Wake Forest took their No. 19 ranking into Blacksburg and got trucked 36-17 by the Hokies, who can still win the Coastal. Boston College lost at home to a Florida State team that just fired its coach.

Arkansas got blown at home by Western Kentucky — who started a transfer from Arkansas that Chad Morris didn’t want as his quarterback — and now Morris is fired before the completion of his second season. Worth keeping an eye on this coaching search as the Razorbacks are Notre Dame’s home opener next year. Stanford was a road favorite at Colorado and lost, so they’re now 4-5. San Diego State was a 17.5-point home favorite against Nevada and lost. Boise needed overtime to beat Wyoming on the blue turf. South Carolina lost at home to Appalachian State, which raises the question of why is anyone scheduling Appalachian State in a November non-conference game. The Mountaineers have wins over both North and South Carolina and should play Wake in a bowl for the best non-Clemson team in the Carolinas title belt.

6) While Notre Dame quickly figured out the Duke defense, they did start with a three-and-out, which is not going to work against Saturday’s opponent. Navy comes into this game off a bye weekend at 7-1 and ranked in the Top 25, making them the toughest November opponent by ranking or nearly any computer metric you would like to use. This game will likely be miserable because almost all Navy games are miserable, but at least the Irish got some practice with run heavy attacks the last two weeks.

A small blessing of Drue Tranquill's injury last year in San Diego is that Drew White replaced him in spot duty and played quite well against the option, notching six tackles. Jalen Elliott had seven tackles, a forced fumble and a pick while Alohi Gilman was born for this. How will JOK and Bilal handle increased snaps? Is Kyle Hamilton ready? Can the defensive line reach the same level of disruption sans Jerry Tillery and Julian Okwara? A lot of questions, and come Saturday evening we’ll know how well the Bob Elliott Memorial Institute for Option Studies did in preparing its charges. An offense that seems to have found its legs will now have to prove it can be efficient because there likely won’t be that many drives for them to ply their trade.

Only three games left so be sure to enjoy them. While it’s unfortunate the Irish don’t have an opportunity to put another marquee win on the board between now and the end of the month there is still a lot to play for: A third-straight ten win season, a second-straight top ten finish, extending the home win streak into another year, the first win in Palo Alto since the David Grimes Robbery, keeping the streak going against Boston College, not allowing Ken Niumatalolo to feel joy and remaining one of only two teams to have not lost to an unranked opponent since the start of 2017 (along with the Crimson Tide). Keep putting up wins and we’ll see where the postseason takes us.

7) Oh, and happy birthday to my dad, who despite spending most of his life rooting against Notre Dame visited campus with me my senior year, got sucked in by hockey blowing out Michigan and Bengal Bouts the same way I did, helped make the sell to my mom and now owns maybe more Irish gear than I do. (This is me covering my bases in case the card I sent didn’t arrive in time.)

Thanks for reading and thanks for sharing. 7-2 is not bad but 8-2 would be a lot better, particularly with the annual problems presented by this next opponent. Go Irish, Beat Midshipmen.
 

IrishLax

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I won't get overly technical, but pin & pull and all that ND asks its linemen to do is moronic. It's "advanced" in the same sense that BVG had "advanced" defensive concepts. You're not putting your players in the best position to succeed.

Does it have higher upside to create explosive running plays? Arguably. Does pulling two linemen on 3rd and short lead to more plays getting stopped for a loss or no gain? 100% abso-freaking-lutely.

And zone blocking is not a JV concept. Mike Shanahan famously had elite running attacks with zone blocking. It's complex in a different manner, in that it asks players to work together and make real time decisions on who is blocking who, and the RB has to actually have the vision to find a hole to run through.

What ND does far too often, IMO, is that in pulling linemen and trying to get them to open up the hole they are letting defenses shoot gaps and create havoc in the backfield. I think it's far more effective to just teach linemen how to work together without all the assignments and to get them to win their 1v1 matchups. The reason the running game in Baylor's spread back in the day or in any kind of "air raid" offense or old school Chip Kelly at Oregon is often so effective is that when you spread teams out and then zone block you can create big creases for explosive plays... especially if they have to account for the QB running it. Seems to fit ND's personnel well, and seems easier to teach to a functional level.
 

ThePiombino

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I won't get overly technical, but pin & pull and all that ND asks its linemen to do is moronic. It's "advanced" in the same sense that BVG had "advanced" defensive concepts. You're not putting your players in the best position to succeed.

Does it have higher upside to create explosive running plays? Arguably. Does pulling two linemen on 3rd and short lead to more plays getting stopped for a loss or no gain? 100% abso-freaking-lutely.

And zone blocking is not a JV concept. Mike Shanahan famously had elite running attacks with zone blocking. It's complex in a different manner, in that it asks players to work together and make real time decisions on who is blocking who, and the RB has to actually have the vision to find a hole to run through.

What ND does far too often, IMO, is that in pulling linemen and trying to get them to open up the hole they are letting defenses shoot gaps and create havoc in the backfield. I think it's far more effective to just teach linemen how to work together without all the assignments and to get them to win their 1v1 matchups. The reason the running game in Baylor's spread back in the day or in any kind of "air raid" offense or old school Chip Kelly at Oregon is often so effective is that when you spread teams out and then zone block you can create big creases for explosive plays... especially if they have to account for the QB running it. Seems to fit ND's personnel well, and seems easier to teach to a functional level.
Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the reply!

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Some Irish Bloke

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Big mistake. Cable companies are expensive after the first year promotion deals run out. Youtube TV is amazing with unlimited DVR and you can have 6 members in your household no matter the location with their own account and password.

To each their own.

First world problems but between the time lag and the picture quality of the stream, I'll take my more expensive cable package all day.
 

Irish#1

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I won't get overly technical, but pin & pull and all that ND asks its linemen to do is moronic. It's "advanced" in the same sense that BVG had "advanced" defensive concepts. You're not putting your players in the best position to succeed.

Does it have higher upside to create explosive running plays? Arguably. Does pulling two linemen on 3rd and short lead to more plays getting stopped for a loss or no gain? 100% abso-freaking-lutely.

And zone blocking is not a JV concept. Mike Shanahan famously had elite running attacks with zone blocking. It's complex in a different manner, in that it asks players to work together and make real time decisions on who is blocking who, and the RB has to actually have the vision to find a hole to run through.

What ND does far too often, IMO, is that in pulling linemen and trying to get them to open up the hole they are letting defenses shoot gaps and create havoc in the backfield. I think it's far more effective to just teach linemen how to work together without all the assignments and to get them to win their 1v1 matchups. The reason the running game in Baylor's spread back in the day or in any kind of "air raid" offense or old school Chip Kelly at Oregon is often so effective is that when you spread teams out and then zone block you can create big creases for explosive plays... especially if they have to account for the QB running it. Seems to fit ND's personnel well, and seems easier to teach to a functional level.

Good points. Adding to this, there isn't anything wrong with pulling a lineman, but it works a lot better when you have someone like a Q who has quick feet and can get out in front of the block. You need to have someone down block to cut off anyone that may shoot the gap. To do this you need to load the side your pulling to, to make it work.

When it comes to picking up a yard or two, I've never been a fan of pulling someone even if it's inside. It takes too long for the play to develop. You can get the same blocking if you go under center and run iso with a leading FB.
 
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