Culture

Bluto

Well-known member
Messages
8,146
Reaction score
3,979
Just stumbled across this Vox article on my Twitter feed which directly addresses the issue Mike and I debated over: "I'm an environmental journalist, but I never write about overpopulation. Here's why."

oxfam_carbon_inequality.png

"Reducing high-end consumption could have an enormous short-term impact on carbon emissions, as climate scientist Kevin Anderson is always saying. Shifting wealth within populations — reducing the number of very wealthy and the number in poverty — can have as much carbon impact as reducing overall population."

Good read. Too bad much of this will be lost in the chasm of zero sum GOP true beliver economic theory, MAGA and our dipshit POTUS's modern equivalent of a bumper sticker.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

A man gotta have a code
Messages
9,358
Reaction score
5,352
"Reducing high-end consumption could have an enormous short-term impact on carbon emissions, as climate scientist Kevin Anderson is always saying. Shifting wealth within populations — reducing the number of very wealthy and the number in poverty — can have as much carbon impact as reducing overall population."

Good read. Too bad much of this will be lost in the chasm of zero sum GOP true beliver economic theory, MAGA and our dipshit POTUS's modern equivalent of a bumper sticker.

Word.

But it's our right to emiss as many carbons as we can muster. F*ck the poor!

giphy.gif
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
That article directly contradicts itself several times. First, it uses "carbon" as a proxy for "bad," which is lazy and inaccurate. Second, it talks about contraception, abortion, and "female empowerment" as keys to reducing emissions, but the countries in which those things are most prevalent are the same countries in the wealthiest 10%, which is supposedly the worst. Also, "consumption emissions" is a bullshit term used to deliberately skew the chart anti-wealthy. Total emissions would be far more relevant.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">What fun euphemism from Politico. Pregnant women are simply "reducing" their children out of existence. <a href="https://t.co/fLT0CRH16C">pic.twitter.com/fLT0CRH16C</a></p>— Alex Griswold (@HashtagGriswold) <a href="https://twitter.com/HashtagGriswold/status/919905898113437699?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 16, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
Author Patrick S. Tomlinson posited a thought experiment on Twitter that has gone viral about whether or not embryonic life is equal to the life of a 5 yr old child. Ben Shapiro responded to him via the article here This Pro-Abortion Fanatic Presented A Thought Experiment 'DESTROYING' Pro-Lifers. Here Are 4 Reasons He Fails Dramatically. | Daily Wire and Tomlinson responded that Howe agreed with his point and missed the point at the same time. When pressed, Tomlinson then blocked Shapiro. Reading the article, I gotta agree with Shapiro that Tomlinson's experiment, even if you chose the way he does, does not negate the value of potential human life.
 
Last edited:

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
So I saw this on FB and wanted to get a response from those on the board. It's just an interesting case study on the abortion debate that I don't have an answer for. I'm sure some of you will have some really good thoughts on it.

Hypothetical Scenario

So you happen to be in a fertility clinic, the reason is not relevant, and a fire breaks out. As you rush out of the building you hear a cry. In a back room you see a little girl huddled in the corner and she will clearly perish if left. Also in this room you see a large freezer box with 10,000 fertilized embryos in it.

You only have capacity to save one. Which one do you save?
 

GowerND11

Well-known member
Messages
6,539
Reaction score
3,296
So I saw this on FB and wanted to get a response from those on the board. It's just an interesting case study on the abortion debate that I don't have an answer for. I'm sure some of you will have some really good thoughts on it.

Hypothetical Scenario

So you happen to be in a fertility clinic, the reason is not relevant, and a fire breaks out. As you rush out of the building you hear a cry. In a back room you see a little girl huddled in the corner and she will clearly perish if left. Also in this room you see a large freezer box with 10,000 fertilized embryos in it.

You only have capacity to save one. Which one do you save?

Initial split second reactions: Little girl

Thinking about it: Little girl because I'm not sure on what the % of those embryos survive due to time outside of freezer/transportation, and so on.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
So I saw this on FB and wanted to get a response from those on the board. It's just an interesting case study on the abortion debate that I don't have an answer for. I'm sure some of you will have some really good thoughts on it.

Hypothetical Scenario

So you happen to be in a fertility clinic, the reason is not relevant, and a fire breaks out. As you rush out of the building you hear a cry. In a back room you see a little girl huddled in the corner and she will clearly perish if left. Also in this room you see a large freezer box with 10,000 fertilized embryos in it.

You only have capacity to save one. Which one do you save?
I don't think it's even scientifically possible to "save" the fertilized embryos at that point, is it? Saving them from the fire would just result in them dying in some other way. 100% chance of saving one life is better than a 0% chance of saving 10,000 lives.
 

irishog77

NOT SINBAD's NEPHEW
Messages
7,441
Reaction score
2,206
I don't think it's even scientifically possible to "save" the fertilized embryos at that point, is it? Saving them from the fire would just result in them dying in some other way. 100% chance of saving one life is better than a 0% chance of saving 10,000 lives.

Or simply, it is a totally illogical question (I'd say a minimum of 3 fallacies in the scenario), and can't be given a logical answer.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,979
Reaction score
6,471
I believe that the scenario, although a fantasy which might well never occur, is a legitimate construct for getting into the larger discussion --- as are all such inventions. The demand of persons not wanting to confront the discussion that the scenario be "perfect" misses the entire point, and says more about objectors than the goal of the construct.

Obviously, one can rather easily imagine such a scenario as at least possible, excepting only the restriction that the "savior" could return only once. No one could know that. The scenario could be nuanced to state that the choice is who/what you decide to save first, knowing that you might easily not be able to return --- this saves that part of the dilemma aimed at opening the "why?" discussion.

Technical objections about not being able to save the embryos in any choice are red herrings and not even technologically true --- one can imagine many ways that the frozen embryos could be transferred and remain (theoretically) viable.

So the construct remains potentially philosophically useful, but only to those who would actually volunteer to engage it in some start-from-scratch-openmindedly way.

As persons responded, one would, preferably, note that the responders are human beings and not logic machines. If anywhere, that's where the "philosophical" discussion breaks down. Each discussant begins with potentially huge "premises" as to what an embryo really is --- usually with a fully-human vs potentially-at-best-human-soul-container division. (The extreme ends of this spectrum are "a baby" and "a lump of maternal tissue." People holding those views will probably not speak civilly to one another very long.) The question would be then: is there ANY middle group who might be able to coalesce around a view? Finding this group, if it exists, would be made harder by the aforementioned phenomenon of some folks being feeling/emotional types and others claiming (at least) to be rational/analytical types.

It has been my meagre experience that real persons act in emergency situations WELL beyond the dictates of "philosophy" or "logic." Just an intuition, but I feel that almost everyone would grab the little girl first. This intuition however voids the "philosophical" discussion, a discussion which could only occur if one stated up front that the discussants were to leave their instinctive feelings out of it. .... something hard to do.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,545
Reaction score
28,995
So I saw this on FB and wanted to get a response from those on the board. It's just an interesting case study on the abortion debate that I don't have an answer for. I'm sure some of you will have some really good thoughts on it.

Hypothetical Scenario

So you happen to be in a fertility clinic, the reason is not relevant, and a fire breaks out. As you rush out of the building you hear a cry. In a back room you see a little girl huddled in the corner and she will clearly perish if left. Also in this room you see a large freezer box with 10,000 fertilized embryos in it.

You only have capacity to save one. Which one do you save?

So this is the classic "trolley" thought experiment with an abortion what-is-life twist... very interesting.
 

irishog77

NOT SINBAD's NEPHEW
Messages
7,441
Reaction score
2,206
I believe that the scenario, although a fantasy which might well never occur, is a legitimate construct for getting into the larger discussion --- as are all such inventions. The demand of persons not wanting to confront the discussion that the scenario be "perfect" misses the entire point, and says more about objectors than the goal of the construct.

Obviously, one can rather easily imagine such a scenario as at least possible, excepting only the restriction that the "savior" could return only once. No one could know that. The scenario could be nuanced to state that the choice is who/what you decide to save first, knowing that you might easily not be able to return --- this saves that part of the dilemma aimed at opening the "why?" discussion.

Technical objections about not being able to save the embryos in any choice are red herrings and not even technologically true --- one can imagine many ways that the frozen embryos could be transferred and remain (theoretically) viable.

So the construct remains potentially philosophically useful, but only to those who would actually volunteer to engage it in some start-from-scratch-openmindedly way.

As persons responded, one would, preferably, note that the responders are human beings and not logic machines. If anywhere, that's where the "philosophical" discussion breaks down. Each discussant begins with potentially huge "premises" as to what an embryo really is --- usually with a fully-human vs potentially-at-best-human-soul-container division. (The extreme ends of this spectrum are "a baby" and "a lump of maternal tissue." People holding those views will probably not speak civilly to one another very long.) The question would be then: is there ANY middle group who might be able to coalesce around a view? Finding this group, if it exists, would be made harder by the aforementioned phenomenon of some folks being feeling/emotional types and others claiming (at least) to be rational/analytical types.

It has been my meagre experience that real persons act in emergency situations WELL beyond the dictates of "philosophy" or "logic." Just an intuition, but I feel that almost everyone would grab the little girl first. This intuition however voids the "philosophical" discussion, a discussion which could only occur if one stated up front that the discussants were to leave their instinctive feelings out of it. .... something hard to do.

No, I didn't miss the point.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Robert George, a professor at Princeton, responded to that hypothetical with this:

Errors and bad arguments abound on Twitter; it is simply impossible to respond to all of them.

Yet when the errors and bad arguments concern the value of unborn human lives, and when those errors and arguments have, apparently, been so rhetorically persuasive as to generate many thousands of retweets, then perhaps they should be addressed.

This seems to be the case with a recent series of tweets by Patrick L. Tomlinson, who writes, “Whenever abortion comes up, I have a question I've been asking for ten years now of the ‘Life begins at Conception’ crowd. In ten years, no one has EVER answered it honestly.” He then offers a scenario, proposed earlier by Michael Sandel at a meeting of the President’s Council on Bioethics, and even earlier by George Annas. Sandel asks us to imagine that a building is on fire and Jones, who is trying to escape, can save ten frozen embryos or one five-year-old girl, but not both (Mr. Tomlinson’s example substitutes 1,000 frozen embryos, on which more later).

Now, by saving a crate of embryos, Jones would, on the “Life Begins at Conception” account, be saving many human beings (virtually every embryologist or developmental biologist would agree; this is easily verified by a look at the relevant textbooks). Yet it seems plausible that most reasonable people, among whom we will include Jones, would save the five-year-old girl. Can we agree that this choice is reasonable, given our view not just of the nature of the frozen embryos—they are human beings—but also of their value, for we hold that they are beings equal in fundamental worth and dignity to those other human beings currently reading this essay? Does our willingness to accept Jones’s choice as morally legitimate show that, in truth, we do not regard human embryos as we regard children at later stages of development, namely, as full members of the human family?

We agree that considering the case as described by Sandel, most people in Jones’s circumstances would choose to rescue the girl. However, this by no means shows that human embryos are not human beings or that they may be deliberately killed to produce stem cells, or in an abortion.

The first thing to notice is that the case as described is not, in fact, analogous to the suggestion that we should perform embryo-destructive research for the benefits it might provide us, or to the suggestion that it is permissible to abort an unborn human being. In both such cases, we are being invited to kill, or authorize the killing of, human embryos or fetuses in order to provide benefits to others. But in the fire scenario, there is no killing; the deaths of the embryos who are lost when Jones opts to save the girl are not killings—no one is acting to destroy the embryos or cause their deaths—but rather are the kind of death we accept as side effects in various cases in which, for example, acting to save one or some persons means that we are unable to save another or others.

Second, there are differences between the embryos and the five-year-old girl that are or can be morally relevant to the decision concerning whom to rescue. For example, the five-year-old will suffer great terror and pain in the fire, but the embryos will not. Moreover, the family of the five-year-old presumably loves her and has developed bonds of attachment and affection with her that will mean much greater grief in the event of her death than in the event of the death of the embryos. While these concerns would not justify killing, they can play a legitimate role in determining how we may allocate scarce resources and, in some cases, whom we may or should rescue. Often, the (or at least a) morally correct decision cannot be made just on the numbers—a point that even utilitarians are willing to acknowledge. And so, for example, it is morally relevant in some cases where choices of whom to rescue must be made that a person we could save is (for example) our own son or daughter, even if saving him or her means that we cannot save, say, three of our neighbors’ children who end up perishing in the fire from which we saved our own child.

Third, there could be circumstances in which people could agree that it would be reasonable to save the embryos, even if other people, including those with no personal attachment to either the embryos or the girl, might be drawn to rescue the girl instead. For example, if Jones happens to be the mother or father or grandparent of the embryos, Jones might well choose to rescue them, and many people would not regard this as immoral. (By contrast, everyone would agree that it would be immoral even for a parent or grandparent to kill someone else’s child in order to, say, harvest a heart or liver needed to save the life of a child or grandchild.)

The possibility that resources might be used and even, perhaps, lives risked to save the frozen embryos calls to mind the story with which we began our book Embryo: A Defense of Human Life. In 2005, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, a police crew in New Orleans did save a canister of fourteen hundred human embryos from a hospital. Our book began with Noah, one of those embryos, who sixteen months later emerged, via Caesarean section, into the light of the world and his parents’ love. But if those officers had never made it to Noah’s hospital, or if they had abandoned those canisters of liquid nitrogen, the toll of Katrina would have been fourteen hundred human beings higher than it already was, and Noah, sadly, would have perished before having the opportunity to meet his loving family.

The story of Noah shows, we believe, that the choice to rescue human embryos is not necessarily fanciful or unreasonable. And there is another point worth considering, which the story of Noah brought to light. Suppose that someone, whether connected to the embryos or not, chose to save them despite the fact that it meant forgoing the opportunity to save the girl. Suppose further that the embryos were soon thereafter implanted and taken by their gestational mothers to birth, and then they grew to adulthood. If, upon reaching their twenty-first birthdays, the ten young adults organized an event to honor and thank the person who had rescued them when they were in the embryonic stage of their lives, could the rescuer in good faith accept their praise and gratitude for rescuing them? Clearly the answer is, as with Noah, “Yes, of course.” But had Jones “rescued” only a crate of sperm or oocytes, or were embryos mere “potential human beings” or “collections of human cells,” he could not claim that he had rescued any children at all, but only elements that could later be used to produce human beings.

The problem with these rescue examples becomes still more evident if we consider some other cases. For example, imagine a fire in which Jones must choose to rescue either four pregnant women or six men. Many people would probably choose to rescue the pregnant women, precisely because they would reasonably judge that they were rescuing eight human beings rather than six.

Finally, imagine that Jones is faced with the choice of rescuing three comatose patients or a five-year-old girl. Many people who disagree with us about the moral status of embryos agree that comatose persons are human beings entitled to full moral respect. Yet no doubt many of these same people would opt to save the girl rather than the three individuals in comas. Does that mean that they would consider it legitimate, in a different case, to kill one or more of the comatose individuals to harvest vital organs needed to save the five-year-old girl? Not at all. Choices about whom to save are subject to particular facts of the situation without requiring a comparative valuing (or devaluing) of lives. But choices to kill are always devaluing choices.

Still, Mr. Tomlinson might press upon us the difference between his example and Sandel’s, and make one last objection: in the Sandel case, there are only ten embryos, whereas in the Tomlinson case there are 1,000. Surely, at some point the numbers matter, and if not here, then at 10,000, or 100,000. At some point surely we should hold that it is not just permissible but obligatory to save the embryos.

Indeed, we do think this, albeit with a major qualification. At some point, which it is not possible to identify with precision, it would be obligatory to save a large number of embryos rather than the five-year-old girl, just as one would be required to save some large number of strangers rather than one’s own five-year-old daughter. But a condition would need to be met that in real life, sadly, almost never will be: there would have to be great confidence that all or most of the embryos would be given a gestational home and brought to delivery.

The argument here is quite simple: suppose you could save 1,000 comatose strangers or your own five-year-old child; and suppose further that the strangers will only come out of their coma if they are provided food and shelter for nine months. But you are quite confident that no one will, in fact, provide that food and shelter. Then, once again, it seems entirely reasonable for you to save your conscious five-year-old, without this indicating in any way that the comatose strangers are less than fully human, or deserving of less than full respect. Rather, the choice to save the child will at the same time be a sad commentary on a society that is unwilling to provide the necessary resources to nurse the temporarily incapacitated back to full health. We leave it to the reader to refine this example further to make it even more similar to the situation of cryopreserved embryos; we believe the analogy does not reflect well on us as a people.

In consequence, we think it entirely unreasonable to infer, as Mr. Tomlinson does, from the choice to save the five-year-old girl, that “No one believes life begins at conception. No one believes embryos are babies, or children. Those who claim to are trying to manipulate you so they can control women.” As we have noted, it is the standard teaching of every developmental biology textbook we have found that not simply life, but the life of a human being begins at conception. And, while embryos are not “babies,” they are, as a matter of sheer biological fact, living members of the species homo sapiens—human beings in the earliest stage of their natural development. Unless denied or deprived of a suitable environment, or killed by violence or disease, they will develop by an internally directed process from the embryonic stage into the fetal infant child, and adolescent stages, and into adulthood with their determinateness, unity, and identity fully intact. That is what each of us did who is now an adult. Each of us is the same person—the same living member of the human species—who earlier in his or her life was an adolescent, a child, a toddler, a newborn infant, a fetus, and, at the very beginning, a newly conceived embryo. By contrast, none of us was ever an ovum or a spermatozoon. Those were (both functionally and genetically) parts of other persons, namely, our parents, whose uniting brought us into being precisely as embryonic human beings.

No plausible reason has been given, we think, why some living human beings should be treated as deserving full moral respect and immunity from intentional killing, while other living human beings, differing from the first only in size, developmental stage, and location, should be treated as not deserving such respect. The pro-life view is thus deeply motivated by the principle of the fundamental equality in dignity of all human beings, and certainly not by a desire to manipulate and control. And that conviction is founded on undeniable biological facts, and on a firm commitment to the principle of the equal dignity of each and every member of the human family.
 

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
So I saw this on FB and wanted to get a response from those on the board. It's just an interesting case study on the abortion debate that I don't have an answer for. I'm sure some of you will have some really good thoughts on it.

Hypothetical Scenario

So you happen to be in a fertility clinic, the reason is not relevant, and a fire breaks out. As you rush out of the building you hear a cry. In a back room you see a little girl huddled in the corner and she will clearly perish if left. Also in this room you see a large freezer box with 10,000 fertilized embryos in it.

You only have capacity to save one. Which one do you save?

Patrick Tomlinson posited this on Twitter just about a week ago in a string of tweets.

While he got many tweeted responses, here are a couple of articles that responded to the thought experiment:

SHAPIRO: This Pro-Abortion Fanatic Presented A Thought Experiment 'DESTROYING' Pro-Lifers. Here Are 4 Reasons He Fails Dramatically. | Daily Wire

WALSH: Here's The Reason Why Pro-Aborts Rely On Worst Case Scenarios To Argue Their Point | Daily Wire
 

greyhammer90

the drunk piano player
Messages
16,836
Reaction score
16,109
Ben Shapiro also wrote a response to this thought experiment that was well thought out.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
DNA surgery on embryos removes disease
Precise "chemical surgery" has been performed on human embryos to remove disease in a world first, Chinese researchers have told the BBC.
The team at Sun Yat-sen University used a technique called base editing to correct a single error out of the three billion "letters" of our genetic code.
They altered lab-made embryos to remove the disease beta-thalassemia. The embryos were not implanted.
The team says the approach may one day treat a range of inherited diseases.
To Mend a Birth Defect, Surgeons Operate on the Patient Within the Patient
The patient, still inside his mother’s womb, came into focus on flat screens in a darkened operating room. Fingers, toes, the soles of his feet — all exquisite, all perfectly formed.

But not so his lower back. Smooth skin gave way to an opening that should not have been there, a bare oval exposing a white rim of bone and the nerves of the spinal cord.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Ben Shapiro also wrote a response to this thought experiment that was well thought out.

Here's Shapiro's response:

On Tuesday morning, a pro-abortion Twitter thread went viral. The thread posited a thought experiment the author claimed to be original, though it has existed in one form or another for over a decade (I first became aware of the thought experiment from Harvard philosopher Michael Sandel, who was arguing in favor of fetal stem cell research at the time). Here’s the hypothetical, according to one Patrick S. Tomlimson, comic and author of the ARK trilogy. Tomlinson’s scorn for the pro-life movement pours from his verbiage:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Whenever abortion comes up, I have a question I've been asking for ten years now of the "Life begins at Conception" crowd. In ten years, no one has EVER answered it honestly. 1/</p>— Patrick S. Tomlinson (@stealthygeek) <a href="https://twitter.com/stealthygeek/status/920085535984668672?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 17, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Let’s put aside Tomlinson’s obvious douchiness; the commenters on the Twitter thread are properly puzzled. That’s because Tomlinson is correct that we all have a moral instinct: to save the five-year-old. But he’s wrong if he thinks the hypothetical proves that embryos aren’t human life or potential human life, and therefore of no value. There are at least four reasons for that.

1. Moral Instinct Does Not Always Mean Correct Moral Decisionmaking. We all have the moral instinct to save the child. That does not mean that the instinct is either correct or justifiable. A few quick thought experiments suffice to prove the point.

Here’s another, more famous thought experiment: you’re standing at the fork in a track for a runaway trolley. On one side of the track is a man tied to the tracks; on the other side are five people. You choose to throw the switch to save the five people, presumably. But now comes the second part of the hypothetical: instead of standing at a fork, throwing a switch, you’re standing above a single track on a bridge. Five people are still tied to the track. Conveniently enough, there is a single fat woman standing atop the bridge with you. If you throw her in front of the train, you can stop the trolley before it hits the five people. Most people say they wouldn’t do it. Does that mean that the five people below are not humans, or that it is morally correct to avoid tossing the woman?

Or, say that instead of the box of random embryos, there are two embryos – and they are yours and your wife’s, your only potential children, and as in Tomlinson’s example, we know they will come to fruition. Your instinct could easily be to save the embryos rather than the five-year-old child. Would Tomlinson then say that the five-year-old isn’t a human?

Or let’s say that it was your five-year-old in the room, and next door were 1,000 actual full-grown human adults. Your instinct would probably be to save your five-year-old. Mine would be. Does that make me right, or the 1,000 humans no longer human?

2. Tomlinson’s Thought Experiment Does Not Reveal The Value Of Embryonic Life. We can agree with Tomlinson that one ought to save the five-year-old rather than the box of embryos and still not admit that embryonic life is meaningless. In fact, we can imagine scenarios where we choose the box precisely because we want to preserve human life. Here’s from Gregor Damschen and Dieter Schonecker at Universtat Halle-Wittenberg in response to Sandel: you’re in Tomlinson’s thought experiment, the embryos will grow into human beings using artificial means (as in Tomlinson’s thought experiment), but there are no other human beings. In fact, this is often the leading premise of science fiction. Do you save the five-year-old and doom the human species to extinction, or do you save the embryos? In this case, potential human life outweighs current human life. Does that mean the five-year-old is no longer a human being? Does it prove, according to Tomlinson, the value of embryonic life?

Here’s an easier one: you can save the box of embryos or you can save the life of a woman who will die of cancer tomorrow. Which one do you save? If you choose the embryos, is the cancer-ridden woman therefore of no moral value?

3. Most Pro-Lifers Freely Admit The Supreme Value of Already-Born Human Life, But That Doesn’t Make Prenatal Life Valueless. Virtually every religious system, including Catholic religious doctrine, allows passive abortion (the moral equivalent of this case) in order to save the life of the mother. Let’s say a woman has cancer and she requires chemo in order to cure it, but the chemo will result in the death of a fetus. There is no third option. Catholic doctrine suggests that the doctor bears no moral responsibility; the abortion is a byproduct of saving the woman’s life. So Tomlinson’s hard choice doesn’t remotely demonstrate the valuelessness of embryonic life.

4. The Hypothetical Isn’t Reality. This is the most obvious rebuttal to the implication Tomlinson draws from the hypothetical: the case of pro-abortion advocates isn’t a choice between a five-year-old and a thousand fetuses. It’s a case of killing a fetus, by itself. No such hard choice exists in 99.99 percent of abortion cases. Which means that using such a hypothetical to justify a doctor killing thousands of fetuses out of pure convenience is simply ridiculous.

Tomlinson’s initial thought experiment is interesting, but it doesn’t prove much beyond the fact that we make decisions all the time about the relative value of human life, often based on instinct. That doesn’t make our instincts right; it doesn’t justify non-hypothetical cases; it doesn’t even prove Tomlinson’s general point. But at least it allows Left-wingers to pour their instinctual scorn on conservatives without actually acknowledging the faultiness of their arguments.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
I don't think it's even scientifically possible to "save" the fertilized embryos at that point, is it? Saving them from the fire would just result in them dying in some other way. 100% chance of saving one life is better than a 0% chance of saving 10,000 lives.

It's a hypothetical. The whole point isn't to find a loophole.

Or simply, it is a totally illogical question (I'd say a minimum of 3 fallacies in the scenario), and can't be given a logical answer.

Why? It's clearly written as a hypothetical. So the fallacies are assumed.

Here's Shapiro's response:

Nothing like a "well thought out" response that starts with discrediting the story by saying he stole the idea (why is that relevant?) and then saying "Let’s put aside Tomlinson’s obvious douchiness". lolz.

I'm more interested in your thoughts, fellas. Not Shapiros.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Nothing like a "well thought out" response that starts with discrediting the story by saying he stole the idea (why is that relevant?) and then saying "Let’s put aside Tomlinson’s obvious douchiness". lolz.

I'm more interested in your thoughts, fellas. Not Shapiros.

That's why I shared Professor George's article first. Greyhammer mentioned Shapiro's response, so I pasted it here for others who might want to read it.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
15 years from now: "You like need to pay my psychiatric bills or you're like bigoted or something."
With my daughter now 3, these kinds of articles make me absolutely terrified. I know I won't be able to protect her forever, but if some teacher reads her "I am Jazz" in kindergarten, I'll burn the school to the ground.
 

greyhammer90

the drunk piano player
Messages
16,836
Reaction score
16,109
Nothing like a "well thought out" response that starts with discrediting the story by saying he stole the idea (why is that relevant?) and then saying "Let’s put aside Tomlinson’s obvious douchiness". lolz.

I'm more interested in your thoughts, fellas. Not Shapiros.

Shapiro makes good points, though I agree with you that I wish he would reduce the "flavor" of his writing.

I would rush to save the girl. There's no question about that. She's a fully developed human being. I do think that attempting to construe that feeling as proof that a pro-lifers who would do the same are hypocritical is a where the "douchiness" starts to reveal itself.
 

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,013
Reaction score
5,055
With my daughter now 3, these kinds of articles make me absolutely terrified. I know I won't be able to protect her forever, but if some teacher reads her "I am Jazz" in kindergarten, I'll burn the school to the ground.

TIL Wiz hates black robots
 
Top