COVID-19

SonofOahu

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SonofOahu

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The FDA Is something many of us peons haven't really examined; but they always hold out for new treatments to illness's until the highest bidder comes forth. Do you not see some odd correlation with all of this nonsense?

What in god's name are you talking about? Do you even know the mechanism of how a drug gets approved, or did you just throw some random words and terms together?

I sincerely hope that hydroxychloroquine is a potential solution but you need to take the French study with a huge grain of salt. It was a severely flawed study for many reasons.
- It was non-randomized and all the "Control" group had relative contraindications to hydroxychloroquine. With that as the control (non-treatment group), they are inherently going to be sicker and skew the data in favor of the treatment.
- The study only had 42 patients (26 received the drug, 16 did not) and 6 withdrew from the study because of "early cessation of the drug." Of the reasons the drug were stopped was 3 went to the ICU and 1 patient died. So basically they excluded all the sickest patients in the treatment arm which again will skew the data in favor of treatment.

While minimal, the drug does have some potentially dangerous side effects including causing abnormal heart rhythms so providers need to be thoughtful when prescribing it.

I am not saying this wont work and we shouldn't give it, but in my opinion the French data is not worth much. You can read the study below.

https://www.mediterranee-infection....2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf

This

The China virus has now been weaponized by the inept and corrupt Democrats

Where's BGIF, or whoever, complaining about politics in this thread?
 

Irish#1

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Easy boomer.

I'm good, I just find these assumptions to be irrational. To be honest, I haven't given any thought to my mortality before or during this pandemic, but I worry about my daughter. Of course I can only speak for myself.

Hats off to our youngest. Yesterday he gave our daughter a couple of the masks with replaceable filters, a box of filters, a face shield and 50 of the N95 masks. He was upset because her hospital was requiring them to reuse their masks longer than they should. Said he wanted to make sure his sister was protected.
 
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BGIF

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What in god's name are you talking about? Do you even know the mechanism of how a drug gets approved, or did you just throw some random words and terms together?



This



Where's BGIF, or whoever, complaining about politics in this thread?


I'm here. I did not set up the political threads. A couple of weak kneed mods did instead of actually moderating and deleting the stupidity, trolling, and political rants from both sides.

There still is a Covid 19 thread in the political threads, the subforum the moderators set up for those needing a safe room. It's largely ignored as hysteria and stupidly reign here. The moderators apparently have their hands full searching for toilet paper. They could print out half these posts, like the random spew you correctly categorized in your first paragraph and use it for TP.

There still are a few very good posters here like you, Kelly, and the Seattle PEDs who I've complimented by name that provide information and another half dozen posters that post useful discussion. The rest are primarily noise. There is an ignore function that you can use to block the posts of clowns that fill up have the pages. It's in your User CP. See the blue banner at the top of the page.

It really helps reduce the aggravation level when seeking real news.
 

tommyIRISH23

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I sincerely hope that hydroxychloroquine is a potential solution but you need to take the French study with a huge grain of salt. It was a severely flawed study for many reasons.
- It was non-randomized and all the "Control" group had relative contraindications to hydroxychloroquine. With that as the control (non-treatment group), they are inherently going to be sicker and skew the data in favor of the treatment.
- The study only had 42 patients (26 received the drug, 16 did not) and 6 withdrew from the study because of "early cessation of the drug." Of the reasons the drug were stopped was 3 went to the ICU and 1 patient died. So basically they excluded all the sickest patients in the treatment arm which again will skew the data in favor of treatment.

While minimal, the drug does have some potentially dangerous side effects including causing abnormal heart rhythms so providers need to be thoughtful when prescribing it.

I am not saying this wont work and we shouldn't give it, but in my opinion the French data is not worth much. You can read the study below.

https://www.mediterranee-infection....2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf

The same doctor did another study of 80 patients and published it last weekend. He treated 80 patients of which 79 recovered. The one patient that passed was 86 years old i believe and was suffering from an advanced stage of COVID. The doctor didnt have a control group as he said that would be unethical/immoral during a pandemic. He used the median recovery times from patients not receiving the malaria cocktail as a measure of efficiency. The malaria cocktail had patients fully recover in (i believe) 5-7 days range against the 14+ period for those not receiving the cocktail. Patients range from mild to severe. So yeah it is anecdotal, but very encouraging, and should be taken by more than a grain of salt at this point. Other studies have echoes similar findings and to add even more anecdotes, I personally know a woman in the high risk category who was sliding downhill fast and her doctor prescribed the malaria cocktail. She has since fully recovered with a viral load of 0.

At this point since there are no other definitive options and Gilead is acting like assholes- If i catch this, I am taking it. The palliative care along with wait and pray bullshit is absurd.
 

RDU Irish

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I'm good, I just find these assumptions to be irrational. To be honest, I haven't given any thought to my mortality before or during this pandemic, but I worry about my daughter. Of course I can only speak for myself.

Hats off to our youngest. Yesterday he gave our daughter a couple of the masks with replaceable filters, a box of filters, a face shield and 50 of the N95 masks. He was upset because her hospital was requiring them to reuse their masks longer than they should. Said he wanted to make sure his sister was protected.

I'm not a fan of italics so please understand I am at least a bit tongue in cheek in my boomer comments. The quick erosion of liberty in the face of a lot of unknowns is very disturbing to me. The population most affected is also the population that can most easily self isolate - hell my parents could win the sedentary Olympics and now they get to martyr themselves over "missing" all of the stuff they always missed anyway. Can't casino or go to the enabling doctors - probably best thing that could happen to them.

My wife's last shift someone stole all the masks and gloves off of their isolation carts outside the two rooms with flu. If they were Covid it would probably be national news and people calling for execution of the perpetrators. People are selfish assholes but society is a crazy bitch.

Oahu - patient presenting.... wtf is that person doing at the doctor with such mild symptoms? There could easily be 10 mild cases undocumented for every one documented. Until we see antibody tests we don't know much, IMO. Hopeful reality is much better than advertised but in the meantime washing my hands, keeping my distance from folks and thankful I have a job that can be performed anywhere and resources to weather this storm.
 

InKellyWeTrust

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How do you gain an economic advantage when your buyers all die? Producers need purchasers.

Thankfully not everyone is dying. The rest of the world will get back on their feet. A vaccine is surely coming in time. Better treatments are on the horizon. But to say China did not see some political and economic gains from closing the curtains on the rest of the world is being quite generous. They can buy up struggling business for slashed prices due to global economic collapse. They can "come to the rescue" of western countries and continue their march up the political ladder.

They may not have that chance though. They are likely going to have a second wave on their hands very soon. I can't see how this doesn't snowball on them again, even with 20-40x more cases and deaths during the original outbreak than reported. 1.4 billion people. The number needed to seroconvert in some form in order to develop herd immunity for a population that large is staggering.
 

Legacy

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Originally Posted by Legacy View Post
We used to have an epidemic response team in the WH, those epidemic management plans, but don't have a sufficient stockpile, a centralized equipment purchasing agency to keep prices lower, and a coordinated response plan with research into vaccines and good public health connections over the world.
Why? Sometimes it's political philosophies and a perception of who is responsible - federal vs state.


We've never had anything close to an infrastructure or existing processes like SK has (built in response to run ins with SARS and MERS). We've also never had any guidelines that say what the state is responsible for vs fed. We know some states have prepared themselves better than others, and some states have studied the needs, and some of those states have failed heed the guidance of those studies. Suffice to say, at minimum, it's pretty unacceptable for a state or city with high density to have less than the national state average per capita, especially one with such a high state tax..

After numerous Congressional hearings and the support and urging of the President (W.) at the time as well as input from his HHS and medical and security personnel within his Admin (including Dr Fauci and quite a number of others):

The National Strategy for Pandemic Response Influenza Act was passed in 2005 with an Implementation Plan. (Full Version)

This is the blueprint for any pandemic and has been utilized in other pandemics on a national and state level. As you can imagine, the Congress and Bush put this together as a major priority for something like COVID-19. States have gotten funding for the implementation of pandemics and disaster response systems. The Act details the pandemic threats to America, potential impact on the health and economy, federal responses, alignment with international goals in their International Partnership on Pandemics, federal obligations in response to a pandemic, vaccine research and supply and roles of the states within that national strategy. See Chapter 2&3 for U.S. Government response and interactions and responsibilities in working with states.

The CDC on their website details their "pivotal role" in ensuring "state and local public health systems" preparedness.
Excerpt:
CDC’s Division of State and Local Readiness funds preparedness activities to state and local public health systems through the Public Health Emergency Preparedness (PHEP) cooperative agreement and other funding.

Further, the Government Accounting Office (GAO) after the 2009 Influenza Pandemic reviewed it in Lessons from the H1N1 Pandemic Should Be Incorporated into Future Planning:
Excerpt from "Highlights":
Over $6 billion was available for the response, led by the Departments of Health and Human Services (HHS) and Homeland Security (DHS), with coordination provided by the Homeland Security Council (HSC) through its National Security Staff (NSS). In particular, HHS's CDC worked with states and localities to communicate with the public and to distribute H1N1 vaccine and supplies. GAO was asked (1) how HHS used the funding, (2) the key issues raised by the federal response, and (3) the actions taken to identify and incorporate lessons learned. GAO reviewed documents and interviewed officials from five states about their interaction with the federal government. GAO also reviewed documents and interviewed officials from HHS, DHS, the Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), NSS, and others, such as associations

The purpose of the GAO review was to review the response by government agencies as well to recommend changes that would lessen the economic impact to our country. The GAO will undoubtedly review the federal response to the COVID-19 pandemic, which may include whether the structure of the National Strategy for Pandemic Response Influenza Act for pandemics was eroded with subsequent impacts on our health and economy. The Act is similar to those in many other countries, including Australia's which I linked before.

Let's hope that this is a lesson learned or
As George Santayana is attributed to saying: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
 
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Legacy

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Following up on postings about the financial stresses on rural hospitals, here's an excellent article:

Missouri hospitals on the financial brink now face coronavirus, Medicaid changes (KC Star)

Why Missouri?
Missouri finds itself in exclusive company: It is one of five states where 40% or more of its rural hospitals are deemed vulnerable, according to an analysis by the Charits Center for Rural Health.

Add the specter of a spreading coronavirus pandemic, and hospitals like Tobler’s find themselves on the brink of financial jeopardy.

“I’m watching people who are the most resilient people in the world beginning to crumble,” Tobler said of his staff as they grapple with what’s ahead.

Thin hospital finances at rural hospitals are taking a hit, even if the pandemic hasn’t reached most outstate counties in Missouri, because regular or elective medical procedures are being canceled in anticipation of coronavirus’ arrival.

“If you talk dollars and cents, the impact of reducing elective surgeries is a huge blow to many of our facilities,” said Patrick Geschwind, interim chief executive of Pemiscot Memorial Health Systems in the Missouri Bootheel. “That’s the most lucrative part of our business, a procedure done in our hospital versus a clinic.”

If a wave of coronavirus cases hits Pemiscot County in the coming weeks after revenue streams have been cut, its financial candle burns at both ends.

A proposal by MO Healthnet, which runs Missouri’s Medicaid program, is touted as a measure to realize budget savings and simplify notoriously byzantine algorithms used to calculate reimbursements for outpatient procedures. They forecast $60 million in budget savings from the idea.

Some hospitals and lawmakers fear the changes could cut funding when hospitals can least afford it.

An analysis by the Missouri Hospital Association claims an outpatient reimbursement proposal by the MO HealthNet Department, which runs Missouri’s Medicaid program, could lower outpatient payments to Missouri hospitals by more than $100 million next fiscal year.

“It doesn’t make any sense when we are already closing hospitals in Missouri, we never expanded Medicaid, so we still have large groups of people across our state that are not having access to health care,” said state Rep. Deb Lavender, D-Kirkwood. “It just doesn’t make sense for me that we are removing that much money from hospitals.”

Todd Richardson, director of MO HealthNet, testified to lawmakers before they adjourned last week that Missouri needed to update and simplify an outdated Medicaid reimbursement system.

“We have some of the most outdated payment methodologies in the country,” Richardson said. “This is not by any stretch the only thing we think needs to happen in healthcare, but we do think it is a big step in rationalizing and creating a better baseline for how we’re paying for a pretty big bucket of services.” (cont)
 

Irishize

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Oahu - patient presenting.... wtf is that person doing at the doctor with such mild symptoms? There could easily be 10 mild cases undocumented for every one documented. Until we see antibody tests we don't know much, IMO. Hopeful reality is much better than advertised but in the meantime washing my hands, keeping my distance from folks and thankful I have a job that can be performed anywhere and resources to weather this storm.

Great question RDU. My boss had COVID and he was told that he needed to be treated at home unless he started experience respiratory issues. He’s fine now. Plaquenil doesn’t come into consideration until a patient is advancing and nothing else is working. It was never a consideration for my boss or his daughter. I know the HCPs on here know that but I think there’s a lot of confusion out there.

Healthy folks like my boss & his daughter that test positive are going to be quarantined to their homes. Plaquenil is not being handed out like candy. If you or a loved one are on their deathbed, there’s zero question that Plaquenil will be introduced. For the media to act like it’s malpractice to use a generic drug that’s been around for decades in an off-label manner is ignorance at it’s best.

BTW, my boss’s two worst symptoms were non-stop headache & absolutely zero energy. Started w/ a dry cough but that subsided. Problem is that Spring is here and so is pollen so don’t assume folks w/ a dry cough automatically have COVID-19. His daughter experienced symptoms early but felt fine w/in a week. Oh to be young.

It won’t happen, but one can hope; the silver lining to all Americans is to live healthier. I looked at the deaths in NY and over 99% of the fatalities had co-morbidities. Hypertension, Type II Diabetes, CHF, etc. Control what you can to ensure you are as healthy as possible. Not sure why every death is counted as a COVID death when the patient had an existing primary (in some cases terminal) illness. I know in Hospice care due to cancer or Alzheimer’s and they contract pneumonia or the flu and die, their primary cause of death is still the cancer or Alzheimer’s. Sure they can have secondary or tertiary causes of death but the primary illness is what set them up for the secondary illness.

New Orleans gets a double whammy b/c of the poverty level their residents live under. You add extreme poverty to a densely populated city and that’s a horrible recipe for COVID-19 deaths. High percentage of obesity, Type II diabetes, CHF, hypertension to an extreme not seen in NYC.

If I haven’t stated before, sincere thanks to all the folks who work on the front line of this pandemic: nurses, MAs, MDs, APRNs, techs, RTs, EMTs, Fire & Police, etc. God bless you all. Stay safe.
 

RDU Irish

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Great question RDU. My boss had COVID and he was told that he needed to be treated at home unless he started experience respiratory issues. He’s fine now. Plaquenil doesn’t come into consideration until a patient is advancing and nothing else is working. It was never a consideration for my boss or his daughter. I know the HCPs on here know that but I think there’s a lot of confusion out there.

Healthy folks like my boss & his daughter that test positive are going to be quarantined to their homes. Plaquenil is not being handed out like candy. If you or a loved one are on their deathbed, there’s zero question that Plaquenil will be introduced. For the media to act like it’s malpractice to use a generic drug that’s been around for decades in an off-label manner is ignorance at it’s best.

BTW, my boss’s two worst symptoms were non-stop headache & absolutely zero energy. Started w/ a dry cough but that subsided. Problem is that Spring is here and so is pollen so don’t assume folks w/ a dry cough automatically have COVID-19. His daughter experienced symptoms early but felt fine w/in a week. Oh to be young.

It won’t happen, but one can hope; the silver lining to all Americans is to live healthier. I looked at the deaths in NY and over 99% of the fatalities had co-morbidities. Hypertension, Type II Diabetes, CHF, etc. Control what you can to ensure you are as healthy as possible. Not sure why every death is counted as a COVID death when the patient had an existing primary (in some cases terminal) illness. I know in Hospice care due to cancer or Alzheimer’s and they contract pneumonia or the flu and die, their primary cause of death is still the cancer or Alzheimer’s. Sure they can have secondary or tertiary causes of death but the primary illness is what set them up for the secondary illness.

New Orleans gets a double whammy b/c of the poverty level their residents live under. You add extreme poverty to a densely populated city and that’s a horrible recipe for COVID-19 deaths. High percentage of obesity, Type II diabetes, CHF, hypertension to an extreme not seen in NYC.

If I haven’t stated before, sincere thanks to all the folks who work on the front line of this pandemic: nurses, MAs, MDs, APRNs, techs, RTs, EMTs, Fire & Police, etc. God bless you all. Stay safe.

Gotta pump up those numbers to validate maximum hysteria. "Going to die soon anyway" is defeatist anti-boomerism no matter how true it is. Grandmas are afraid to go to the grocery store or hug their grandkids - what exactly are we winning here? At some point the cure is worse than the cold.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/traversmark/2020/04/01/why-is-coronavirus-fear-so-low-in-sweden/#6230a8e33870

When it is all said and done - if Sweden was right, will anyone admit it? What if their results are in line with everyone else?
 

zelezo vlk

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Three European countries that took a laissez-faire, "herd immunity' approach to coronavirus early on, the UK, the Netherlands and Sweden, are paying the price for it. They reported, respectively, 563, 134 and 59 deaths today. <a href="https://t.co/9fFIJJjqhz">https://t.co/9fFIJJjqhz</a></p>— Nate Silver (@NateSilver538) <a href="https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1245382343977820161?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 1, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

InKellyWeTrust

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Guys, the health care workers are not embellishing the extent of this crisis. This is hammering hospitals across the country. I don't know what else you have to see to understand this is the real deal and people will die without proper care simply due to overwhelming numbers of patients needing care simultaneously. Add to that the inability to properly protect our health care workers, EMTs, law enforcement, etc. Add to that the shortages of medications to keep patients paralyzed on ventilators. Add to that patients dying alone due to visitor restrictions of hospitals for obvious reasons.

We need to support our local, state, and federal governments' decisions and stop thinking this is some sort of political game (at least within this country).

No, the "cure" is not worse than the disease. Social distancing is all we have to reliably decrease the numbers right now. If we decided to go the route of "survival of the fittest", people would be dying by the thousands outside of hospitals as well. This would be a chilling sight to say the least.
 

RDU Irish

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Three European countries that took a laissez-faire, "herd immunity' approach to coronavirus early on, the UK, the Netherlands and Sweden, are paying the price for it. They reported, respectively, 563, 134 and 59 deaths today. <a href="https://t.co/9fFIJJjqhz">https://t.co/9fFIJJjqhz</a></p>— Nate Silver (@NateSilver538) <a href="https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1245382343977820161?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 1, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Their approach will obviously be worse upfront - question is if it will be balanced by shorter duration and less long term effects. Logically, with fewer infirm 95 year olds in the population your going forward daily deaths may decline. Non-PC theory but just as valid as assuming 4 million Americans will die if we do nothing.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Some of you guys know I like tracking which states Americans are moving to and which states Americans are leaving. I have a feeling covid19 will have people fleeing major cities like LA and NY in the next 1-2 years. A very high percentage of those cities' populations are also renters, which could make it easier to get out.

Thoughts?
 

Whiskeyjack

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I'm here. I did not set up the political threads. A couple of weak kneed mods did instead of actually moderating and deleting the stupidity, trolling, and political rants from both sides.

There still is a Covid 19 thread in the political threads, the subforum the moderators set up for those needing a safe room. It's largely ignored as hysteria and stupidly reign here. The moderators apparently have their hands full searching for toilet paper. They could print out half these posts, like the random spew you correctly categorized in your first paragraph and use it for TP.

There still are a few very good posters here like you, Kelly, and the Seattle PEDs who I've complimented by name that provide information and another half dozen posters that post useful discussion. The rest are primarily noise. There is an ignore function that you can use to block the posts of clowns that fill up have the pages. It's in your User CP. See the blue banner at the top of the page.

It really helps reduce the aggravation level when seeking real news.

Help me out here, BGIF. Toward the end of this post, you seem to appreciate those who keep this thread mostly fact-driven, but you started it by knocking the mods for transferring the weeds to a separate planter rather than spending an inordinate amount of time picking them out here one at a time.

As a former mod yourself, you're usually the first to point out that we're not getting paid for this. Is it your position that the political threads should be scrubbed from the site entirely?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Their approach will obviously be worse upfront - question is if it will be balanced by shorter duration and less long term effects. Logically, with fewer infirm 95 year olds in the population your going forward daily deaths may decline. Non-PC theory but just as valid as assuming 4 million Americans will die if we do nothing.

This policy brought to you by the same people who practiced state-sponsored eugenics well into the 1970s, and who recently celebrated "curing" Down Syndrome (by killing them all in utero).

Teutonic Nazis learning about recent COVID-19 deaths in northern Europe:

FlatIdealisticBoaconstrictor-size_restricted.gif
 

ND-North

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The same doctor did another study of 80 patients and published it last weekend. He treated 80 patients of which 79 recovered. The one patient that passed was 86 years old i believe and was suffering from an advanced stage of COVID. The doctor didnt have a control group as he said that would be unethical/immoral during a pandemic. He used the median recovery times from patients not receiving the malaria cocktail as a measure of efficiency. The malaria cocktail had patients fully recover in (i believe) 5-7 days range against the 14+ period for those not receiving the cocktail. Patients range from mild to severe. So yeah it is anecdotal, but very encouraging, and should be taken by more than a grain of salt at this point. Other studies have echoes similar findings and to add even more anecdotes, I personally know a woman in the high risk category who was sliding downhill fast and her doctor prescribed the malaria cocktail. She has since fully recovered with a viral load of 0.

At this point since there are no other definitive options and Gilead is acting like assholes- If i catch this, I am taking it. The palliative care along with wait and pray bullshit is absurd.

Completely agree. If somebody has diagnosed COVID and is not doing well, I will give the the meds and not think twice about it. I just can't sell it to families as a definitive therapy based on the data, but it's the best we got. I have heard that the University hospital in Minneapolis has had some success with Tocilizumab (IL-6 inhibitor) in critically ill patient's, though there will probably be limited access to it.
 

RDU Irish

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Guys, the health care workers are not embellishing the extent of this crisis. This is hammering hospitals across the country. I don't know what else you have to see to understand this is the real deal and people will die without proper care simply due to overwhelming numbers of patients needing care simultaneously. Add to that the inability to properly protect our health care workers, EMTs, law enforcement, etc. Add to that the shortages of medications to keep patients paralyzed on ventilators. Add to that patients dying alone due to visitor restrictions of hospitals for obvious reasons.

We need to support our local, state, and federal governments' decisions and stop thinking this is some sort of political game (at least within this country).

No, the "cure" is not worse than the disease. Social distancing is all we have to reliably decrease the numbers right now. If we decided to go the route of "survival of the fittest", people would be dying by the thousands outside of hospitals as well. This would be a chilling sight to say the least.

Grapes of Wrath is not a utopian storybook and social distancing is not the same as complete global shutdown. Taking reasonable precautions and huddling alone in fearful isolation for months on end are not the same thing. 20% of 2100 cases are age 65+ in North Carolina but they make up 79% of 19 deaths. https://www.ncdhhs.gov/covid-19-case-count-nc#by-age
I didn't find similarly sliced data easily for broader US but seems on target for what has been kicked around. So we have an 80/20 rule in effect - which is much more lopsided if we add co-morbidities.

I'm not convinced my family didn't have it in early February when we were all sick for a few weeks. We are in an relatively densely populated area with tons of global travelers, three kids in two different schools and wife works in a hospital. I would frankly be surprised if none of us were positive for antibodies.
 

RDU Irish

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This policy brought to you by the same people who practiced state-sponsored eugenics well into the 1970s, and who recently celebrated "curing" Down Syndrome (by killing them all in utero).

Teutonic Nazis learning about recent COVID-19 deaths in northern Europe:

FlatIdealisticBoaconstrictor-size_restricted.gif

I know you love dealing in absolutes. Hope you are fortunate enough to never have to deal with DNR orders - or maybe you find them immoral and wrong. Old Yeller should probably be banned from libraries for animal cruelty. At inception abortion is just as bad as partial birth. Absolutes or you have no morals! Careful you don't crush those pearls.

We should outlaw automobiles - 3700 people die daily around the world in traffic accidents. Or maybe outlaw pools, definitely residential pools THOUSANDS ARE DYING (but they are all kids so that's fine) https://www.edgarsnyder.com/statistics/swimming-pool-statistics.html

REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS does not mean forcing every individual into a bubble. Keep your distance, wash your hands and adjust your schedule as you reasonably can. Not unlike what you filthy animals should be doing every damn flu season whether you get a flu shot or not. But EVEN SUGGESTING or postulating that these actions may only be prolonging the inevitable - and not prolonging it that far - is devil talk.
 

InKellyWeTrust

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Grapes of Wrath is not a utopian storybook and social distancing is not the same as complete global shutdown. Taking reasonable precautions and huddling alone in fearful isolation for months on end are not the same thing. 20% of 2100 cases are age 65+ in North Carolina but they make up 79% of 19 deaths. https://www.ncdhhs.gov/covid-19-case-count-nc#by-age
I didn't find similarly sliced data easily for broader US but seems on target for what has been kicked around. So we have an 80/20 rule in effect - which is much more lopsided if we add co-morbidities.

I'm not convinced my family didn't have it in early February when we were all sick for a few weeks. We are in an relatively densely populated area with tons of global travelers, three kids in two different schools and wife works in a hospital. I would frankly be surprised if none of us were positive for antibodies.

What does your wife say the hospital looks like right now? Ask her again in a 2-3 weeks. This isn't about me or you or our outcomes when we get this virus. It's about population health. I'm not advocating for fear but I am advocating for people to listen to their leaders who have much more information at their disposal than we do. Capitalism doesn't shut down unless there is a damn good reason, like a pandemic.

And the IgG/IgM test could absolutely be a ticket out of isolation for many people. But somebody has to scale that test to be available in the millions. Your "back to work" card if you will. I believe its coming but first we have to deal with the peak and we, as a country, are not there yet.
 

Irishize

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What does your wife say the hospital looks like right now? Ask her again in a 2-3 weeks. This isn't about me or you or our outcomes when we get this virus. It's about population health. I'm not advocating for fear but I am advocating for people to listen to their leaders who have much more information at their disposal than we do. Capitalism doesn't shut down unless there is a damn good reason, like a pandemic.

And the IgG/IgM test could absolutely be a ticket out of isolation for many people. But somebody has to scale that test to be available in the millions. Your "back to work" card if you will. I believe its coming but first we have to deal with the peak and we, as a country, are not there yet.

Correct. Average peak is forecast two weeks from now. Longer in densely populated states like Texas & California
 

Whiskeyjack

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Hope you are fortunate enough to never have to deal with DNR orders - or maybe you find them immoral and wrong.

I'm a probate attorney. Drafting medical directives and ensuring they're enforced when my clients are at their most vulnerable is a big part of my practice. And yes, as drafted, most DNRs are pretty immoral documents. They're also rarely enforced, and generally aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Living wills are different.

Old Yeller should probably be banned from libraries for animal cruelty.

Animals aren't persons.

At inception abortion is just as bad as partial birth.

Yes.

We should outlaw automobiles - 3700 people die daily around the world in traffic accidents.

We should definitely stop building our cities around them, and I think you underestimate the psychological effect of living under technology that could result in sudden agonizing death for your family on any given day. But I don't dispute your basic point that the automobile is useful enough to justify some increase in mortality rate.

Or maybe outlaw pools, definitely residential pools THOUSANDS ARE DYING (but they are all kids so that's fine) https://www.edgarsnyder.com/statistics/swimming-pool-statistics.html

Suburbia, including huge amounts of essentially wasted real estate via "backyards", is also a bad thing, but that gets back to building our cities around the automobile.

REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS does not mean forcing every individual into a bubble. Keep your distance, wash your hands and adjust your schedule as you reasonably can. Not unlike what you filthy animals should be doing every damn flu season whether you get a flu shot or not. But EVEN SUGGESTING or postulating that these actions may only be prolonging the inevitable - and not prolonging it that far - is devil talk.

When I look around at how various governments have handled this pandemic, the ones that are faring best cracked down early and hard, forcing more discomfort (and economic disruption) on people for shorter periods of time. The ones getting hit hardest responded with too little too late.

So when I see economic liberals whining over "muh stock portfolio" and praising countries with histories of eugenic engineering for bravely sacrificing their weak in the interest of economic strength, it strikes me as more than a little cynical. It's really convenient when being a straight-talkin' clear-eyed realist perfectly aligns with your economic self-interest, right?
 

Irishize

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I'm a probate attorney. Drafting medical directives and ensuring they're enforced when my clients are at their most vulnerable is a big part of my practice. And yes, as drafted, most DNRs are pretty immoral documents. They're also rarely enforced, and generally aren't worth the paper they're printed on.



Animals aren't persons.



Yes.



We should definitely stop building our cities around them, and I think you underestimate the psychological effect of living under technology that could result in sudden agonizing death for your family on any given day. But I don't dispute your basic point that the automobile is useful enough to justify some increase in mortality rate.



Suburbia, including huge amounts of essentially wasted real estate via "backyards", is also a bad thing, but that gets back to building our cities around the automobile.



When I look around at how various governments have handled this pandemic, the ones that are faring best cracked down early and hard, forcing more discomfort (and economic disruption) on people for shorter periods of time. The ones getting hit hardest responded with too little too late.

So when I see economic liberals whining over "muh stock portfolio" and praising countries with histories of eugenic engineering for bravely sacrificing their weak in the interest of economic strength, it strikes me as really cynical. It's really convenient when being a straight-talkin' clear-eyed realist perfectly aligns with your economic self-interest, right?


Agreed on all your major points. My one small contention is that regular folks concerned w/ crashing the economy are not all doing so b/c of their “stock portfolios”. I know you & most posters here know the difference between a true small business and a huge corporation but painting EVERY person who would like to see projections on the economy as well as on the virus are not to be dismissed as Faceless, soul less corporate suits in some high rise in mid-town Manhattan.

A buddy of mine owns a local restaurant. He’s already laid off his GM and some employees. He’s working the take out/drive through himself and not running the AC to save money and avoid shutting down for good. The least of his worries are his “stock portfolio”. He’s worried about food & shelter for his family & employees. Medicine/healthcare falls in third place for him right now.

Small-to-medium sized business are the backbone of our economy. They’re typically not beholden to shareholders. I guess it’s ok to show sympathy for them when it means bashing Wal-Mart but when it comes to the current situation, ALL businesses are evil, faceless, soulless suits who are short selling stocks in their high rise condo. That’s just not reality and I think it’s fair to discuss a plan for the economy concurrent w/ the plans for handling the pandemic. Again, I realize y’all know the difference but it reminded me of all the anti-business folks on social media calling them greedy scumbags b/c they want to know what the future economy holds. Rant over.
 
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RDU Irish

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What does your wife say the hospital looks like right now? Ask her again in a 2-3 weeks. This isn't about me or you or our outcomes when we get this virus. It's about population health. I'm not advocating for fear but I am advocating for people to listen to their leaders who have much more information at their disposal than we do. Capitalism doesn't shut down unless there is a damn good reason, like a pandemic.

And the IgG/IgM test could absolutely be a ticket out of isolation for many people. But somebody has to scale that test to be available in the millions. Your "back to work" card if you will. I believe its coming but first we have to deal with the peak and we, as a country, are not there yet.

They cancelled plans for a triage tent outside the main facility due to lack of demand. She is in newborn - so it is crazy as always, will be much worse in 9 months thanks to COVID. All staff is N95 required now. However she knows she is absolutely going to be exposed which means our family will absolutely be exposed (again, don't doubt we already had it). Just got notice of a Vodka company as new hand sanitizer vendor which is accompanied with instructions that it is not fit for drinking. Amazing some people remember to breath.

Just in time inventory, health care capacity "optimization", poor personal health choices and doctors dishing out meds to enable those poor choices ..... long list of CHOICES that have been made by "leaders" and individuals that add up to a manufactured crisis, IMO. 350 pounders living off of Cheetos and Big Macs while chuggin' Budweiser for a living does not mean I am infringing on your personal liberty by saying I should be able to keep working and minding my own damn business. You put yourself at risk and I get to pay for it. I'm not running around licking every blue hair I see here - just saying keep your distance and wash your hands and we will all be fine.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Agreed on all your major points. My one small contention is that regular folks concerned w/ crashing the economy are not all doing so b/c of their “stock portfolios”. I know you & most posters here know the difference between a true small business and a huge corporation but painting EVERY person who would like to see projections on the economy as well as on the virus are not to be dismissed as Faceless, soul less corporate suits in some high rise in mid-town Manhattan.

There seems to be a lot of overlap between the "muh stock portfolio" types and those suggesting we just have to reconcile ourselves to a few million dead seniors. Those I have no sympathy for.

A buddy of mine owns a local restaurant. He’s already laid off his GM and some employees. He’s working the take out/drive through himself and not running the AC to save money and avoid shutting down for good. The least of his worries are his “stock portfolio”. He’s worried about food & shelter for his family & employees. Medicine/healthcare falls in third place for him right now.

Actual small business owners absolutely deserve aid. Hopefully the SBA loans getting rolled out today will help. My firm's applying for one to ensure we can cover rent and payroll for our employees over the next 3 months regardless of what happens to our work flow. But as usual, the Feds are rolling it out through private banks, so you have to climb a mountain of red tape to even apply for it.

Small-to-medium sized business are the backbone of our economy. They’re typically not beholden to shareholders. I guess it’s ok to show sympathy for them when it means bashing Wal-Mart but when it comes to the current situation, ALL businesses are evil, faceless, soulless suits who are short selling stocks in their high rise condo. That’s just not reality and I think it’s fair to discuss a plan for the economy concurrent w/ the plans for handling the pandemic. Again, I realize y’all know the difference but it reminded me of all the anti-business folks on social media calling them greedy scumbags b/c they want to know what the future economy holds. Rant over.

To be clear, I am deeply concerned for furloughed workers and small business owners who are struggling to make ends meet right now. The direct aid to families recently passed by Congress is depressingly insufficient given what most people are going to need. The SBA loans getting rolled out look more promising, but we'll see how that goes.

I'm criticizing those stating we need to "open up the economy" (code for "reconcile ourselves to lots of weak elderly Americans dying") because they want to see the stock market go up again. The stock market is not the American economy, and I could not be less sympathetic to the interests of degenerate gamblers in Manhattan.
 

FDNYIrish1

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Guys, the health care workers are not embellishing the extent of this crisis. This is hammering hospitals across the country. I don't know what else you have to see to understand this is the real deal and people will die without proper care simply due to overwhelming numbers of patients needing care simultaneously. Add to that the inability to properly protect our health care workers, EMTs, law enforcement, etc. Add to that the shortages of medications to keep patients paralyzed on ventilators. Add to that patients dying alone due to visitor restrictions of hospitals for obvious reasons.

We need to support our local, state, and federal governments' decisions and stop thinking this is some sort of political game (at least within this country).

No, the "cure" is not worse than the disease. Social distancing is all we have to reliably decrease the numbers right now. If we decided to go the route of "survival of the fittest", people would be dying by the thousands outside of hospitals as well. This would be a chilling sight to say the least.

I’m with you on this. The issue isn’t only Covid, it’s the strain it is putting on the system on top of all of the usual medical emergencies that is causing huge issues. We have been given directives that are totally unique from typical protocol. People that would typically be given better chances at survival are unable to be given the attention due to lack of resources and the hospitals inability to accommodate.
 
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