COVID-19

[Circa]

Also, I am very interested to see how Sweden progresses through this. Maybe they have it figured out but I'm skeptical. Population density certainly has a large effect on transmissible diseases in general. It is certainly possible measures New York is taking doesn't translate well to middle America.

I've already started looking at what It would cost to live In Sweden/Switzerland. This Isn't an anomaly. They have always been the difference.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

And to all IE members. I keep coming back here because I appreciate the civil, insightful discussion. It's nice to have a diverse and intelligent group with many different perspectives.

 

[Circa]

And to all IE members. I keep coming back here because I appreciate the civil, insightful discussion. It's nice to have a diverse and intelligent group with many different perspectives.

WOW! Are you saying you think someone else has an opinion that might affect yours, and you won't drop dead tomorrow?.


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[Ndaccountant]

Maybe this isn't the thread, time, place but I do have a podcast that everyone should listen to. It's alarming, and under our current condition, appealing.

The NBA Is also talked about in detail.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/h8IEtlOVzq4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Sorry, that was a movie quote.

 

[Circa]

Sorry, that was a movie quote.

It was a movie quote? lol.
I'm really curious as to what are ya talking about.?

I've never been good at remembering Quotes or jokes and I look down on myself for It regularly. I'm currently working on storytelling (True stories of course). They say people like people that can tell a good story....

 

[Legacy]

I hear what many if you are saying about certain areas of the country having "too flat of a curve". If you flatten the curve you prolonged the economic impact significantly.
This has many layered implications. First, we cant have the entire country spike at the same time because of limited resources. You cant supply everywhere in the country everything they need to care for patients simultaneously. You would think this is part of somebody's master plan or at least it should be now that we are seeing various trajectories depending on state/area. Second, you may see some secondary moves by some states with very flat curves in order to get people back to work and to allow the trickle to turn into a small stream. The IgG/IgM testing could play a critical role here. Third, as areas such as New York, New Jersey, etc start coming down on the back end they will inevitably loosen the reigns on restrictions too. This all comes together as a tiered approach to getting back to normal life. Then local aggresive PCR testing (acute illness testing) and regional outbreak control take center stage until we have a full scale vaccine to take care of the problem for good. Then all the anti-vaxxers can be silenced for at least a year.

Responding to a few of the very good comments:

I don't understand why the comparisons with the flu are continuing to be made. As a new virus, the world has no immunity or herd immunity, this has a higher secondary transmission rate, a much higher mortality rate and much higher percentages of severe (hospitalizations) and critical (ICU) infections than with influenza. This is a once in a century pandemic.

Mitigation method impacts - the curve always shows with and without curves, though a better picture would be one that shows one where the methods were started on the upswing vs. instituting them when the curve is half way up to the projected apex. (NDA may have just done this.) Those states that have instituted them hard and early like Washington and California are a sooner projected decrease. NY has really emphasized it but are the critics of them really want all traffic and subway into the city and Wall Street two weeks early? There is a good argument for doing that no matter the economic impact. We'll have to watch to see if Florida, Georgia and Texas will pay the price for prolonging those declarations.

When I look around at how various governments have handled this pandemic, the ones that are faring best cracked down early and hard, forcing more discomfort (and economic disruption) on people for shorter periods of time. The ones getting hit hardest responded with too little too late.

So when I see economic liberals whining over "muh stock portfolio" and praising countries with histories of eugenic engineering for bravely sacrificing their weak in the interest of economic strength, it strikes me as more than a little cynical. It's really convenient when being a straight-talkin' clear-eyed realist perfectly aligns with your economic self-interest, right?

Agree that the "IgG/IgM test could absolutely be a ticket out of isolation for many people". I'd follow this on our HC providers with all its implications - positive and negative.

One of the cruelest impacts of this contagion is that people die without their family members when they live nearby. Sometimes family who take care of the patient know their intents and wishes on limitations of care. Another family member thousands of miles away and not as involved may want everything done. One of the strongest documents for end-of-life decision-making to be in the control of the person is a Power of Attorney for Health Care matters, which designates someone to make decisions for the patent when they are not able to. Living wills are often ignored by physicians because the person may have changed their mind or the document has not been provided or the person is not able to reaffirm or just liability reasons. In a COVID patient that may mean unwanted intubation, some significant procedures and much more.

 

[Ndaccountant]

It was a movie quote? lol.
I'm really curious as to what are ya talking about.?

I've never been good at remembering Quotes or jokes and I look down on myself for It regularly. I'm currently working on storytelling (True stories of course). They say people like people that can tell a good story....

https://youtu.be/GNGkHK8Umew

 

[Circa]

https://youtu.be/GNGkHK8Umew

I can swear on my 3 kids lives I have never watched the big lebowski. I have started it a few times but, It's not my cup of tea. I watch things like Seven, and Good will hunting...
I'll even get crazy sometimes and watch Ozark.

The Big Lebowski Is something so weird I might as well watch star Trek and think It's star wars for the middle age men... and then say I like My lil Pony.

 

[phork]

I can swear on my 3 kids lives I have never watched the big lebowski. I have started it a few times but, It's not my cup of tea. I watch things like Seven, and Good will hunting...
I'll even get crazy sometimes and watch Ozark.

The Big Lebowski Is something so weird I might as well watch star Trek and think It's star wars for the middle age men... and then say I like My lil Pony.

Crack kills, my man.

 

[phork]

https://www.mintpressnews.com/united-states-leads-nations-stealing-coronavirus-equipment/266360/

Oh boy.

 

[notredomer23]

https://www.mintpressnews.com/united-states-leads-nations-stealing-coronavirus-equipment/266360/

Oh boy.

 

[Legacy]

Looks like the states are on their own.

Trump admin tries to narrow stockpile’s role for states

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Trump administration has abruptly changed its description of the Strategic National Stockpile and put forward a narrower vision of the role the federal government’s repository of life-saving medicines and equipment should play in supplying states’ needs.

The change comes as the White House already is facing growing anger and worry from governors over federal assistance to fight the coronavirus outbreak. But it conforms with President Donald Trump’s insistence that the stockpile is only a short-term backup for states, not a commitment to ensure supplies get quickly to those who need them most during an emergency, the latest front in a concerted White House effort to try to put the onus for battling the crisis on the states, with Washington meant to play more of a supporting role.

Trump angrily defended the approach in his Friday news conference, his early sunny demeanor darkening as he was pressed on expected death rates and his son-in-law Jared Kushner’s comments suggesting the national stockpile is not intended for states. He sparred with reporters and insisted his administration was “doing our best for New York,” the pandemic’s epicenter, even as Governor Andrew Cuomo warns the state is in danger of not having enough ventilators to help patients stricken with coronavirus in a matter of days.

The alteration of the language describing the stockpile was reflected on government websites on Friday, a day after Kushner, a White House senior adviser who has taken a larger role in the coronavirus response, offered a new argument about the supplies.

After saying that states should use their own stockpiles first, Kushner on Thursday said, “And the notion of the federal stockpile was it’s supposed to be our stockpile. It’s not supposed to be states’ stockpiles that they then use.”

And asked what Kushner meant by “our stockpile,” Trump snapped at a reporter, “You know what our means: United States of America...our. Our. It means the United States of America.”
(cont)

Until Friday, the federal Health and Human Services website had described the stockpile as “the nation’s largest supply of life-saving pharmaceuticals and medical supplies for use in a public health emergency severe enough to cause local supplies to run out.

“When state, local, tribal, and territorial responders request federal assistance to support their response efforts, the stockpile ensures that the right medicines and supplies get to those who need them most during an emergency.”

But the changed version available Friday morning said the stockpile’s “role is to supplement state and local supplies during public health emergencies. Many states have products stockpiled, as well. The supplies, medicines, and devices for life-saving care contained in the stockpile can be used as a short-term stopgap buffer when the immediate supply of adequate amounts of these materials may not be immediately available.”

Trump Replaced White House Pandemic-Response Team With Jared Kushner (Apr 2)

At his coronavirus press briefing yesterday, Fox News correspondent John Roberts asked President Trump about his 2018 decision to eliminate the National Security Council’s pandemic-response office. Trump lashed out, “You know that’s a false story, what you just said is a false story … You shouldn’t be repeating a story you know is false,” accusing Roberts of “working for CNN.” (The charge of committing legitimate journalism is the most serious Trump could think to hurl at a Fox News employee.)...

 

[Greenore]

https://www.mintpressnews.com/united-states-leads-nations-stealing-coronavirus-equipment/266360/

Oh boy.

Oh boy... good? Or Oh boy bad?

Not baiting anyone with this question. It would appear that David Ricardo's basic principles of "Comparative Advantage" and "Opportunity Cost" will be thrown out the window for at least a few years.

Cheers and Go Irish!!

 

[ACamp1900]

And to all IE members. I keep coming back here because I appreciate the civil, insightful discussion. It's nice to have a diverse and intelligent group with many different perspectives.

I’m sure I speak on behalf of all of IE when I say,... go screw your self...

 

[Legacy]

Gouged prices, middlemen and medical supply chaos: Why governors are so upset with Trump

After Kushner Blames Coronavirus Failures On States, Pritzker Fires Back: ‘It’s Called The UNITED States of America’

“I don’t know if Jared Kushner knows this but it’s called the ‘United States’ of America,” (Ill. Gov. J.B.) Pritzker said during a Friday press conference. “I don’t think anybody expected a respiratory pandemic that would deplete all the respiratory stockpiles that exist and that the federal government would abdicate its role and have 50 states, and five territories on top of that, all competing among one another and competing against the federal government.”

U.S. exported millions in masks and ventilators ahead of the coronavirus crisis

Trump tweet:
“Some have insatiable appetites & are never satisfied (politics?). Remember, we are a backup for them. The complainers should have been stocked up and ready long before this crisis hit.”

 

[Circa]

I’m sure I speak on behalf of all of IE when I say,... go screw your self...

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[Circa]

Well looks like I am now going to rid my and my families life from google. Safari needs to up their game a bit, but it'll be better than this authoritarian Bull Shit.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hey congrats, we're all China now. <a href="https://t.co/SuWlplk3pH">pic.twitter.com/SuWlplk3pH</a></p>— Stephen L. Miller (@redsteeze) <a href="https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1246107933630271488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 3, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Irish YJ]

Looks like the states are on their own.

Trump admin tries to narrow stockpile’s role for states

Trump Replaced White House Pandemic-Response Team With Jared Kushner (Apr 2)

Gouged prices, middlemen and medical supply chaos: Why governors are so upset with Trump

After Kushner Blames Coronavirus Failures On States, Pritzker Fires Back: ‘It’s Called The UNITED States of America’

U.S. exported millions in masks and ventilators ahead of the coronavirus crisis

Trump tweet:
“Some have insatiable appetites & are never satisfied (politics?). Remember, we are a backup for them. The complainers should have been stocked up and ready long before this crisis hit.”

So you post a bunch of "smart" sounding stuff earlier including the 2005 gov study, to spin you're narrative... But you failed to read you're own supporting doc that said...

The center of gravity of the pandemic response, however, will be in communities. The distributed nature of a pandemic, as well as the sheer burden of disease across the Nation over a period of months or longer, means that the Federal Government’s support to any particular State, Tribal Nation, or community will be limited in comparison to the aid it mobilizes for disasters such as earthquakes or hurricanes, which strike a more confined geographic area over a shorter period of time. Local communities will have to address the medical and non-medical effects of the pandemic with available resources. This means that it is essential for communities, tribes, States, and regions to have plans in place to support the full spectrum of their needs over the course of weeks or months, and for the Federal Government to provide clear guidance on the manner in which these needs can be met.

Nobody is saying the fed isn't there to help the states. Trump has talked daily about using the fed stockpiles to send to states, and the need to hold onto to portions of that stockpile to service fed employees as well as to send JIT to hotspots.

Why don't you pub some data on the study that Cuomo and the state gov of NY ignored 4 years ago that told them they much more equipment. Or how about the fact that they are the highest taxed city/state, yet are under the national average in equipment per capita nationally....

But no, you won't do any of that because even you will use a pandemic for political purposes...

 

[Irish YJ]

Coronavirus patients delivered to hospital ship Comfort in New York by mistake: US officials
https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-patients-delivered-comfort-ship-new-york-mistake

For those who were asking about the Comfort's use last night. Also discussion on the use of the Javits Center that was set up. Comfort is now sanitizing the areas.

 

[Legacy]

Yes I understand in general the situation. What I would like to know, preferably from someone with direct knowledge, is why non-Covid patients are not being transferred to the Comfort. The Comfort was sent to NY specifically for this purpose but according to reports that I have seen, is that only 20 patients have been transferred there, leaving 980 beds empty and unused.

I, too, can only speculate, but imagine initial disaster decision-making between hospitals and their medical staffs is who could best care for the types of patients, which ones are stable enough for transport or discharge, types of bed availability and capacity that can be expected and adequate staffing and equipment.

The initial transfers and discharges as well would have been done prior to the Comfort arriving. Critical care patients are by definition unstable and those that may well progress to needing intubation would not be suitable. The Comfort may not have vents and care of non-Covid pts would not need n95s or any worries about re-circulating air. The Comfort would also need to be supplied with all the meds, fluids and oxygen for the non-Covid patients.

You would not want a situation like with the aircraft carrier or cruise ships. EMTs/paramedics could follow protocols for diversion to different hospitals or the Comfort for appropriate care by qualified personnel.

You'd probably have to do hard-copy documentation on the Comfort. But it may also help open up a hospital bed if you could not find a skilled nursing facility to accept someone who meets that criteria. Whether they would accept appropriate VA patients to free up beds there depends on the inclusion of the VA hospitals as part of the disaster planning system.

 

[Irish YJ]

COVID-19: Spain virus deaths rise past 10,000 with 950 new deaths in one day
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/spain-virus-deaths-rise-past-10000-with-950-new-victims

Another top 10 country (HC ranking) struggling.

Given it's geography, a little surprised it's being hit this hard.

 

[Circa]

Coronavirus patients delivered to hospital ship Comfort in New York by mistake: US officials
https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-patients-delivered-comfort-ship-new-york-mistake

For those who were asking about the Comfort's use last night. Also discussion on the use of the Javits Center that was set up. Comfort is now sanitizing the areas.

If for 1 second you think that people in charge have delivered Virus Patients to an already sanitized area was a mistake, I am beyond words anymore.
I'll just go crawl into my closet and cry until everyone gets the https://muledeer.org/chronic-wasting-disease/?gclid=CjwKCAjw4KD0BRBUEiwA7MFNTWmQp3-JijZxTiS8jTV3EWkNfGBJhLa_5n4polrnMplWB2U1KZhY8hoCBGEQAvD_BwE

 

[Irish YJ]

If for 1 second you think that people in charge have delivered Virus Patients to an already sanitized area was a mistake, I am beyond words anymore.
I'll just go crawl into my closet and cry until everyone gets the https://muledeer.org/chronic-wasting-disease/?gclid=CjwKCAjw4KD0BRBUEiwA7MFNTWmQp3-JijZxTiS8jTV3EWkNfGBJhLa_5n4polrnMplWB2U1KZhY8hoCBGEQAvD_BwE

To paraphrase another poster, crack kills. Just say no to crack.

 

[Legacy]

So you post a bunch of "smart" sounding stuff earlier including the 2005 gov study, to spin you're narrative... But you failed to read you're own supporting doc that said...



Nobody is saying the fed isn't there to help the states. Trump has talked daily about using the fed stockpiles to send to states, and the need to hold onto to portions of that stockpile to service fed employees as well as to send JIT to hotspots.

Why don't you pub some data on the study that Cuomo and the state gov of NY ignored 4 years ago that told them they much more equipment. Or how about the fact that they are the highest taxed city/state, yet are under the national average in equipment per capita nationally....

But no, you won't do any of that because even you will use a pandemic for political purposes...

I do recognize that you have long viewed many of my posts as spin, narratives, etc for political purposes.

To sharpen the point, though, the role of the federal government is preparation for an infectious disease pandemic has changed over the last decade. Even though the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act (PAHPA) was re-authorized in 2013 and amended in 2019 with decreased funding, I do not think all the provisions of the law are met. As an example see Title III: All-Hazards Medical Surge Capacity in above link.

I'll conclude that you believe the federal government has met all its obligations and responsibilities to protect public health and diminish the subsequent economic impacts of a pandemic.

 

[Irish YJ]

I do recognize that you have long viewed many of my posts as spin, narratives, etc for political purposes.

To sharpen the point, though, the role of the federal government is preparation for an infectious disease pandemic has changed over the last decade. Even though the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act (PAHPA) was re-authorized in 2013 and amended in 2019 with decreased funding, I do not think all the provisions of the law are met. As an example see Title III: All-Hazards Medical Surge Capacity in above link.

I'll conclude that you believe the federal government has met all its obligations and responsibilities to protect public health and diminish the subsequent economic impacts of a pandemic.

Here's what I conclude.
1. You'll purposefully ignore earlier laissez-faire comments and attitudes of key dems like De Blazio and Cuomo
2. You'll purposefully ignore lack of preparation from the same guys who chose not only to ignore studies they funded, but failed to do so to the extent they are under the national average (even thought they are the highest taxed state/city)
3. You'll purposefully ignore shameful partisan attempts to decorate the Covid tree with unrelated political ornaments
4. You'll purposefully ignore hypocrisy from guys like Biden who change their tune when it's clear they had massive fails
5. You'll purposefully ignore the fact that countries with socialist HC systems rated top 10 in the world with massive federal oversight have been crushed by this virus...
6. You'll purposefully ignore any good this administration has done because Orange Man Bad
7. You'll purposefully pick apart everything that Trump or his administration says or does to spin a narrative.

In short, you're attempts to mask you political narratives are pretty shallow, and everyone knows... I'm happy to continue this discussion, but let's do it in one of the political threads where it belongs.

 

[TorontoGold]

What's the consensus on IE of the way the Trump admin has handled this? Trump seems to be getting panned in Ontario right now after the 3M stuff. Doug Ford who has long been a Trump admirer is pretty upset with him. Not sure why we're so surprised that a nationalist would use domestic companies to help his own country out first.

 

[Irish YJ]

What's the consensus on IE of the way the Trump admin has handled this? Trump seems to be getting panned in Ontario right now after the 3M stuff. Doug Ford who has long been a Trump admirer is pretty upset with him. Not sure why we're so surprised that a nationalist would use domestic companies to help his own country out first.

Political section

https://www.irishenvy.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=146

 

[Irish YJ]

Long Island doctor tries new twist on hydroxychloroquine for elderly COVID-19 patients
https://nypost.com/2020/04/04/long-island-doctor-tries-new-hydroxychloroquine-for-covid-19-patients/

 

[TorontoGold]

Political section

https://www.irishenvy.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=146

Cool, thanks.

Friend who runs a couple hospitals in Arizona has said multiple patients who have tested positive were going back to work in between the time they were tested and got results. She says the turning point is going to come when strict quarantines are followed and involving law enforcement.

 

[SonofOahu]

Oahu - patient presenting.... wtf is that person doing at the doctor with such mild symptoms? There could easily be 10 mild cases undocumented for every one documented. Until we see antibody tests we don't know much, IMO. Hopeful reality is much better than advertised but in the meantime washing my hands, keeping my distance from folks and thankful I have a job that can be performed anywhere and resources to weather this storm.

I have no idea why the patient was tested. Maybe something triggered a concern since he was in a long-term-care facility and they really need to exercise vigilance with that setting. Yes, I've heard it said that we should assume the true positive count is 10x what the reported is because asymptomatic persons are not being tested.