Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[IrishLion]

The real question everyone should be asking is why we refuse to air it out like how Kelly did in Cinci despite that clearly being what the team is suited to do.

Bruh.

It's just mind boggling to me that BK won't open up the offense like he did at UC, especially since he's got the QB/RB tandem, and especially since he knows what he has in his defense.

Nearly word-for-word. It's just so perplexing that he won't commit to the aggressive, "F*ck it let's score points" attitude that got him here, especially since he's a smart guy that knows how bad his d-coordinator is.

At some point the staff needs to get their heads out of their asses and, to borrow a line from Herm Edwards, play to win the game. We should be spreading teams out and attacking vertically with both WRs from the opening whistle, and then after they back their guys off in coverage we start establishing the ground game.

This is exactly what he did at UC, and exactly what got him to ND. I was so excited for this season, despite the major level of inexperience and all of the major questions, because I figured that with Kizer at the helm, he was FINALLY gonna let the dogs off the leash and go BK Air Raid on everyone's asses. I figured we might lose one or two games in shootouts, but starting the season at 1-2 BECAUSE he won't let the dogs off the leash is killing me on the inside.

At UC, he'd throw the entire passing playbook at them through the first two quarters, regardless of down and distance, and he would then pick-and-choose his spots to gash them with the run game, once the opposition realized that first-down base defense wasn't safe.

ND is literally set up perfectly to play that type of game. You've got a QB that can air it out, and an OL that can operate fine in pass pro. Once you've got the defense on their heals, you can help the OL gel in the run-game by feeding your beast RB the ball on counters, zones and semi-reverses to capitalize on a numbers advantage.

As someone who watched every game he coached at UC before he was even at ND, it's terribly disappointing to see that he won't go back to his roots. It's like he's scared to open it up, because then he'd be admitting his defense is a failure, which is something he probably catches a lot more heat for at ND than he did at UC.

 

[wizards8507]

The real question everyone should be asking is why we refuse to air it out like how Kelly did in Cinci despite that clearly being what the team is suited to do. Against Clemson we tried to play conservative for 3 quarters... got nothing. Then we started throwing and scored 3 straight TDs. Against USC and Stanford last year we used aggressive play calling to hit big plays. I thought at that point the coaches had figured it out.

But then through three games this year we went back to what we did against Clemson and basically how we played for years before Kizer. Conservative, horizontal, predictable play calling that lets the opponent flow downhill. We check into plays based on what they show instead of going with "call it and haul it" and putting them on their heels. This works if and only if the OL can dominate... which they can't. We wait until we're down 3 scores to start attacking... we did it against both Texas and MSU.

At some point the staff needs to get their heads out of their asses and, to borrow a line from Herm Edwards, play to win the game. We should be spreading teams out and attacking vertically with both WRs from the opening whistle, and then after they back their guys off in coverage we start establishing the ground game. It was insane watching us run into the teeth of the MSU defense over and over again when they absolutely knew pre-snap that we had checked into a run based on what they showed us. We're letting defenses dictate what play we're running.

So much this. Wow, that's exactly what's been driving me crazy but I've been unable to articulate. I've been a member of the RTDB crowd but I think the problem really stems from the lack of any offensive (or defensive) identity. If Kelly wants to chuck the ball vertical all over the field, pass for 500 yards, 5 touchdowns, and an interception every game, fine. If he wants to start recruiting welders' sons from Toledo and line them up at fullback, fine. But right now, our offense is just so "blah." What's our offensive identity? Slow-developing read options?

 

[Blaise]

Can you enlighten me?

If Herman going to score 60 against Texas so we win that game? is he scoring 50 against Ohio St? the problem with this team is not offense. its defense... It doesn't recruit well there and we can't stop anyone.... Saying Herman with Sanford solves all our problems is pretty dang silly

 

[Ndaccountant]

I understand the frustration, but I think people need to look at this objectively.......barring an utter collapse this year and a 4 or 5 win season, BK isn't going anywhere (regardless of whether he should or shouldn't be fired). BVG will be the scapegoat and he certainly is a part of this. However, the issue isn't just BVG, but how it all came to be. I can tell you this......in year 7, roster is certainly a way to explain defensive deficiencies, but it doesn't shift culpability. BK owns the roster and lackluster defensive recruiting is finally rearing it's ugly head.

 

[phgreek]

The real question everyone should be asking is why we refuse to air it out like how Kelly did in Cinci despite that clearly being what the team is suited to do. Against Clemson we tried to play conservative for 3 quarters... got nothing. Then we started throwing and scored 3 straight TDs. Against USC and Stanford last year we used aggressive play calling to hit big plays. I thought at that point the coaches had figured it out.

But then through three games this year we went back to what we did against Clemson and basically how we played for years before Kizer. Conservative, horizontal, predictable play calling that lets the opponent flow downhill. We check into plays based on what they show instead of going with "call it and haul it" and putting them on their heels. This works if and only if the OL can dominate... which they can't. We wait until we're down 3 scores to start attacking... we did it against both Texas and MSU.

At some point the staff needs to get their heads out of their asses and, to borrow a line from Herm Edwards, play to win the game. We should be spreading teams out and attacking vertically with both WRs from the opening whistle, and then after they back their guys off in coverage we start establishing the ground game. It was insane watching us run into the teeth of the MSU defense over and over again when they absolutely knew pre-snap that we had checked into a run based on what they showed us. We're letting defenses dictate what play we're running.

Be the aggressor makes sense...it certainly resonates with me. But I think it is pretty common to establish the run, then go to the air with play action. I am a read series pass guy myself, every second of every game I'm looking to chuck it first, and usually based on pre-snap read....so within a second the ball is out. I only run it when the defense starts to vacate the second level too soon, or the ends get really careless coming after the QB. But I gotta admit, when you hammer someone with the run, it sets a switch in the Dbacks that is hard to turn off...they bite on play fake time after time once that run threat is established...which makes the passing game a higher percentage endeavor. Stuff we all know. Given Kelly's belief in the Oline, and the understanding that Kizer carved up Texas and Sparty when they went to a more conservative defensive posture, I think there is some discussion in the war room about how to proceed. Doesn't mean Kizer couldn't carve them up regardless, but he got favorable looks when ND was down. Either way, the run was for sure not what I think Kelly expected. I'd figure it took texas and sparty to reset his offensive concept. He'll run it on the middlin teams coming up, but I'd guess he'll move to a different concept by Stanford. Hoping tempo, short passing to sub for the run game. I hope so anyway...I guess we'll see...but you'd have to expect a track meet against Stanford based on the play of the ND D, and McCaffry.

 

[IrishLax]

I understand the frustration, but I think people need to look at this objectively.......barring an utter collapse this year and a 4 or 5 win season, BK isn't going anywhere (regardless of whether he should or shouldn't be fired). BVG will be the scapegoat and he certainly is a part of this. However, the issue isn't just BVG, but how it all came to be. I can tell you this......in year 7, roster is certainly a way to explain defensive deficiencies, but it doesn't shift culpability. BK owns the roster and lackluster defensive recruiting is finally rearing it's ugly head.

Yup, he could go 5-7 and probably not get fired. What we're really looking at -- if we're all being honest with ourselves -- is whether a bad year following this one would mean the end of the line.

Next year's schedule also looks absurd relative to this one.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Can't rep Lion. Would if I could.

Kizer is the elite QB BK has been desperately awaiting his entire time at ND and he's holding him back, imo.

Typical ND:

Has good QB, has shit defense.
Has good defense, has shit QB.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Yup, he could go 5-7 and probably not get fired. What we're really looking at -- if we're all being honest with ourselves -- is whether a bad year following this one would mean the end of the line.

Next year's schedule also looks absurd relative to this one.

Absolutely.

Thing is, Herman is someone that you could probably make a serious run at. But with openings most likely coming in places like LSU, Auburn, etc Herman will not be there next year. I may be reading too much into his success, but someone that beats both FSU and OU the way that he did is not something BK or many others have done at a school like Houston. Herman is not BK part II.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Be the aggressor makes sense...it certainly resonates with me. But I think it is pretty common to establish the run, then go to the air with play action. I am a read series pass guy myself, every second of every game I'm looking to chuck it first, and usually based on pre-snap read....so within a second the ball is out. I only run it when the defense starts to vacate the second level too soon, or the ends get really careless coming after the QB. But I gotta admit, when you hammer someone with the run, it sets a switch in the Dbacks that is hard to turn off...they bite on play fake time after time once that run threat is established...which makes the passing game a higher percentage endeavor. Stuff we all know. Given Kelly's belief in the Oline, and the understanding that Kizer carved up Texas and Sparty when they went to a more conservative defensive posture, I think there is some discussion in the war room about how to proceed. Doesn't mean Kizer couldn't carve them up regardless, but he got favorable looks when ND was down. Either way, the run was for sure not what I think Kelly expected. I'd figure it took texas and sparty to reset his offensive concept. He'll run it on the middlin teams coming up, but I'd guess he'll move to a different concept by Stanford. Hoping tempo, short passing to sub for the run game. I hope so anyway...I guess we'll see...but you'd have to expect a track meet against Stanford based on the play of the ND D, and McCaffry.

Everything you said makes sense to me, but I want to make one comment regarding using the run to set up the pass. This is a fine game plan when 1) you can actually establish the run, and 2) You have a defense that can keep opposing teams to low scoring.

ND couldn't establish the run against MSU. They ran it time and time again into the teeth of MSU defense. It made zero sense. Like BK was trying to wear down Sparty and beat them at their own game. We also don't have the defense to keep MSU off the board. So ND got into a huge hole.

For the last few years, my view of ND's offensive identity has been to use the pass to set up the run. Not the other way around. With Kizer, it shouldn't even be a question.

 

[ulukinatme]

I understand the frustration, but I think people need to look at this objectively.......barring an utter collapse this year and a 4 or 5 win season, BK isn't going anywhere (regardless of whether he should or shouldn't be fired). BVG will be the scapegoat and he certainly is a part of this. However, the issue isn't just BVG, but how it all came to be. I can tell you this......in year 7, roster is certainly a way to explain defensive deficiencies, but it doesn't shift culpability. BK owns the roster and lackluster defensive recruiting is finally rearing it's ugly head.

Very true. A big part of our current struggles could be the ineffective recruiting while Diaco was still here. That 2014 class was lackluster in spots, we were scrambling at the end for DTs/NGs because Diaco hasn't bothered to solidify anyone for his most important defensive position. That whole class defensively was mediocre at best, and should be the backbone of our current defense as upperclassmen this year. To make matters worse the seniors, class of 2013, had three 5 star defenders that are not with the team today for various reasons (Vanderdoesn't, Redfield, Jaylon). Obviously not all of them were going to stick around as seniors one way or another, especially Jaylon, but I wonder how much different things would be today if Eddie didn't flake out and Max lived up to some of his potential. Then you have 4 star players, like Randolph, that have to hang it up for medical reasons, and Watkins still waiting to get back on the field.

 

[ulukinatme]

Absolutely.

Thing is, Herman is someone that you could probably make a serious run at. But with openings most likely coming in places like LSU, Auburn, etc Herman will not be there next year. I may be reading too much into his success, but someone that beats both FSU and OU the way that he did is not something BK or many others have done at a school like Houston. Herman is not BK part II.

I'm surprised Herman's name keeps coming up as a possible successor, but I think you hit the nail on the head. If you're a budding, hot new HC and you have your choice between LSU/Auburn/USC or ND (No green tinted glasses here), which would you choose? I'm going to take the school in a recruiting hotbed with loose restrictions on players.

 

[SavIrish]

Hey, first time poster and long time Irish fan in south Georgia. Reading this board and watching ND feels like UGA during Richt era. It was always the coordinator (bobo or maney diaz) and Richt always got a pass......Kelly is in year 7 and things have not progressed - they haven't completely regressed - but they are not getting better. ND just doesn't win big games in the Kelly era (same as UGA w/Richt).....we aren't bad but we aren't good and in year 7 that is unacceptable

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Very true. A big part of our current struggles could be the ineffective recruiting while Diaco was still here. That 2014 class was lackluster in spots, we were scrambling at the end for DTs/NGs because Diaco hasn't bothered to solidify anyone for his most important defensive position. That whole class defensively was mediocre at best, and should be the backbone of our current defense as upperclassmen this year. To make matters worse the seniors, class of 2013, had three 5 star defenders that are not with the team today for various reasons (Vanderdoesn't, Redfield, Jaylon). Obviously not all of them were going to stick around as seniors one way or another, especially Jaylon, but I wonder how much different things would be today if Eddie didn't flake out and Max lived up to some of his potential. Then you have 4 star players, like Randolph, that have to hang it up for medical reasons, and Watkins still waiting to get back on the field.

Recruiting is tricky for me. Yeah, there are obvious holes from a lack of successful recruiting. But there are also some areas (that you pointed out) where the player either (A) didn't live up to the hype (B) transferred or left early (C) got injured. Two things from that. One is that the staff can't control all of that. IF ND could've retained those guys and had some luck w/ injuries, this defense wouldn't be near as bad and we'd probably be 3-0. But that's not life and the real problem is that the coaching staff does a shit job of having a backup plan. That's not to say they don't get them ready to compete (there's plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise). It's more along the lines of not adapting the scheme to fit the players abilities when serious holes open up in the roster. BK addressed this in his presser. "These are our guys." Fix the scheme and allow the guys on the field to make plays.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Hey, first time poster and long time Irish fan in south Georgia. Reading this board and watching ND feels like UGA during Richt era. It was always the coordinator (bobo or maney diaz) and Richt always got a pass......Kelly is in year 7 and things have not progressed - they haven't completely regressed - but they are not getting better. ND just doesn't win big games in the Kelly era (same as UGA w/Richt).....we aren't bad but we aren't good and in year 7 that is unacceptable

Welcome to the board. I agree with your post. UGA always had a ton of talent, ala ND. The coaching staffs just can't seem to get it right. It's bothersome.

 

[koonja]

Hey, first time poster and long time Irish fan in south Georgia. Reading this board and watching ND feels like UGA during Richt era. It was always the coordinator (bobo or maney diaz) and Richt always got a pass......Kelly is in year 7 and things have not progressed - they haven't completely regressed - but they are not getting better. ND just doesn't win big games in the Kelly era (same as UGA w/Richt).....we aren't bad but we aren't good and in year 7 that is unacceptable

OMG, it's so true and now I'm thoroughly depressed about the state of ND football. I don't see Jack letting BK go, or BK letting BVG go. I think one thing about the Kelly era is when change needs to happen (Joe Schmidt), they're so slow to do it.

 

[IrishLax]

I'm surprised Herman's name keeps coming up as a possible successor, but I think you hit the nail on the head. If you're a budding, hot new HC and you have your choice between LSU/Auburn/USC or ND (No green tinted glasses here), which would you choose? I'm going to take the school in a recruiting hotbed with loose restrictions on players.

I'm taking USC or LSU over ND, not Auburn. Auburn is a coaching graveyard... it's like LSU, but even worse because you're little brother to Bama.

 

[tussin]

I'm surprised Herman's name keeps coming up as a possible successor, but I think you hit the nail on the head. If you're a budding, hot new HC and you have your choice between LSU/Auburn/USC or ND (No green tinted glasses here), which would you choose? I'm going to take the school in a recruiting hotbed with loose restrictions on players.

I would take USC and that's it. I think ND generally plays easier schedules than the SEC West (but let's not start that debate). IMO, an elite level coach is guaranteed ten wins most years at ND. It's almost impossible to do that consistently in the SEC unless you are Saban.

USC is a dream job though -- recruiting hotbed and a generally weak division. They are a sleeping giant.

 

[Downinthebend]

Everything you said makes sense to me, but I want to make one comment regarding using the run to set up the pass. This is a fine game plan when 1) you can actually establish the run, and 2) You have a defense that can keep opposing teams to low scoring.

ND couldn't establish the run against MSU. They ran it time and time again into the teeth of MSU defense. It made zero sense. Like BK was trying to wear down Sparty and beat them at their own game. We also don't have the defense to keep MSU off the board. So ND got into a huge hole.

For the last few years, my view of ND's offensive identity has been to use the pass to set up the run. Not the other way around. With Kizer, it shouldn't even be a question.

heres the thing, we didnt run our base runs. We didn't utilize the QB in the running game, didn't read defensive linemen, all we did was run dives and powers trying to block everyone, into bad number boxes.

There was something about the gameplan that excluded our must successful runs, and I can't imagine what that could have been. If your facing a fantastic lineman, the easiest way to block him, is not to block him. Make him wrong every time.

I think I only saw 2 reads of linemen the entire game.

I can only imagine that BK fears for the safety of Kizer (in that he doesn't want to bring Malik into the game at any chance) such that Kizer is no longer allowed to contribute in the run game most downs.

 

[yankeehater]

Is the Oklahoma board comparing Stoopes to Kelly? Kelly is Stoopes 2.0. Teams with a lot of promise that never seem to live up to it.

 

[NDohio]

heres the thing, we didnt run our base runs. We didn't utilize the QB in the running game, didn't read defensive linemen, all we did was run dives and powers trying to block everyone, into bad number boxes.

There was something about the gameplan that excluded our must successful runs, and I can't imagine what that could have been. If your facing a fantastic lineman, the easiest way to block him, is not to block him. Make him wrong every time.

I think I only saw 2 reads of linemen the entire game.

I can only imagine that BK fears for the safety of Kizer (in that he doesn't want to bring Malik into the game at any chance) such that Kizer is no longer allowed to contribute in the run game most downs.

But even those runs were slow developing runs. It was really odd.

 

[connor_in]

My take...

No question BK is here next year unless we on win 3 games (remember we won 10 last year regular season and lost the others by only a couple points and had chances to win at end of each game).

Unless this D magically pitches 5-6 shut outs the rest of this year, BVG is gone. Can't even begin to speculate on who will replace him, but a DC from a repected program that put out a reliable product over the past 3-5 years with a more simplified D. Not sure what this would mean for the rest of the D position coaches. Uncle Rico gets an NFL position job somewhere.

 

[SoDakDomer]

BK isn't getting fired anytime soon. What does he have left on his contract 5 years? If you want BK gone you better hope the NFL comes calling. No way ND is paying a coach for the next 5 years to not coach again. At least not until a couple more 6-6 seasons happen.

 

[connor_in]

But even those runs were slow developing runs. It was really odd.

I personally think our handoff system is odd...and slow.

 

[IrishBroker]

This is an 8-4 year(God help us if worse...but it wouldn't surprise me). If we can live with that, then Kelly won't be fired anytime soon.

If not, then he's gone after this year.

 

[gkIrish]

This is an 8-4 year(God help us if worse...but it wouldn't surprise me). If we can live with that, then Kelly won't be fired anytime soon.

If not, then he's gone after this year.

You and I and everyone with a smidgen of high expectations can't live with 8-4 in year 7 but there are many people on this board and otherwise that are just happy with us playing a fun schedule and being competitive.

 

[NDRock]

This is an 8-4 year(God help us if worse...but it wouldn't surprise me). If we can live with that, then Kelly won't be fired anytime soon.

If not, then he's gone after this year.

I think BK has proven that his average year is 8-5 so that's what I expected this year after we lost so much from last year's team. He's won 10 and 12 games the years where the talent lined up. I think offensively we could be scary good next year if everyone comes back. Couple that with a competent collegiate DC and we could have a 10-3 type year. I think 8-11 wins is what we will get with him going forward. The Richt comparison is apropos.

 

[Downinthebend]

I personally think our handoff system is odd...and slow.

I don't share this opinion, can you link me play that you think was slow? ( if I were you I'd look at the dives from last night as power and reads are supposed to be a bit slower)

 

[ScooterIrish]

Is the Oklahoma board comparing Stoopes to Kelly? Kelly is Stoopes 2.0. Teams with a lot of promise that never seem to live up to it.

I would flat out trade Kelly for Stoops right now.

 

[connor_in]

I don't share this opinion, can you link me play that you think was slow? ( if I were you I'd look at the dives from last night as power and reads are supposed to be a bit slower)

Pick any of them really really. I assume its so they can have a sec to read what is happening and potetially take back out of the RB's gut and take it themselves or throw a pass. Its not turn and put it in his gut ASAP, it is turn and seemingly take a step with him and then let go. Just appears odd compared to all that I grew up with (fyi...I'm in my mid 40s)

 

[Downinthebend]

Pick any of them really really. I assume its so they can have a sec to read what is happening and potetially take back out of the RB's gut and take it themselves or throw a pass. Its not turn and put it in his gut ASAP, it is turn and seemingly take a step with him and then let go. Just appears odd compared to all that I grew up with (fyi...I'm in my mid 40s)

I mean, I've watched the game three times, in order for me to understand what you saw I kinda need to see which play you're talking about.

find me a play from here and i'll take a look at it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv6IpuEWCbc