Another Shooting

IrishLion

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The current resident in the White House has been taped discussing his love of sexually assaulting women, has sided with actual fucking nazis, and lies more often than he tells the truth. Yeah, I'd say we're experiencing a cultural decline and lack of social cohesion.

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This all started November 8, 2016. #resist

It certainly didn't start with Trump. It would be an interesting, years-long study to pinpoint when society jumped the shark. Maybe the boiling point is the same point at which social media in our country became most saturated?

Either way, though, the guy currently in the White House (and the fact that Hillary was the OTHER option lol) is a clear example of just how f*cked up our society is these days. There's no way it should have come down to him and Hilldawg. And yet here we are.
 

BleedBlueGold

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BREAKING?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BREAKING</a>: Dick's Sporting Goods to stop selling assault-style rifles and high-capacity magazines, and won't sell any firearms to anyone under 21 : <a href="https://t.co/fZ5uesxGwz">https://t.co/fZ5uesxGwz</a></p>— WTHR.com (@WTHRcom) <a href="https://twitter.com/WTHRcom/status/968837523454742528?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 28, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Good for Dick's Sporting Goods. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a private company to make this decision. I can nitpick a few things, but it's not worth it. (They don't define any of the vocabulary in the letter, so I'd like clarification on some terms."
 

RDU Irish

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https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

Damn data doesn't fit the rhetoric so probably won't get any play. Need to ban pools and bikes before we ban guns if you are serious about saving lives.

"Four times the number of children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today, Fox said.
“There is not an epidemic of school shootings,” he said, adding that more kids are killed each year from pool drownings or bicycle accidents. There are around 55 million school children in the United States, and on average over the past 25 years, about 10 students per year were killed by gunfire at school, according to Fox and Fridel’s research."

Seriously - you are more likely to win the lottery than be killed in school, the last part of the article points out an important point of perceived risk that is unhealthy when considering the actual probability of EVER facing something like this. It's like people who won't fly b/c they perceive it to be risky due to news of plane crashes when the reality is it is far safer than driving. Get some perspective and grow a pair.
 
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GowerND11

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BREAKING?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BREAKING</a>: Dick's Sporting Goods to stop selling assault-style rifles and high-capacity magazines, and won't sell any firearms to anyone under 21 : <a href="https://t.co/fZ5uesxGwz">https://t.co/fZ5uesxGwz</a></p>— WTHR.com (@WTHRcom) <a href="https://twitter.com/WTHRcom/status/968837523454742528?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 28, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Good for Dick's Sporting Goods. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a private company to make this decision. I can nitpick a few things, but it's not worth it.

I agree. What will probably happen, unfortunately, is the NRA or other groups (even just people together online or something) will call for a boycott and more BS. If a company wants to not sell something/put regulations on how they are conducting the sales while not being discriminatory to a certain peoples, let them. CVS stopped selling tobacco, and I think that was their right as well.
 

GowerND11

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https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

Damn data doesn't fit the rhetoric so probably won't get any play. Need to ban pools and bikes before we ban guns if you are serious about saving lives.

"Four times the number of children were killed in schools in the early 1990s than today, Fox said.
“There is not an epidemic of school shootings,” he said, adding that more kids are killed each year from pool drownings or bicycle accidents. There are around 55 million school children in the United States, and on average over the past 25 years, about 10 students per year were killed by gunfire at school, according to Fox and Fridel’s research."

Come on though. Bicycles and pools are not used to kill others though. A gun has one major function: to do bodily harm to another*.

*Yes used for sport, target practice, etc as well.
 

wizards8507

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Good for Dick's Sporting Goods. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a private company to make this decision. I can nitpick a few things, but it's not worth it. (They don't define any of the vocabulary in the letter, so I'd like clarification on some terms."
That's half-fake news. At the very least, it lacks context.

1. Dick's hasn't sold "assault-style" rifles outside of their 35 specialized "Field and Stream" stores since Sandy Hook.

2. Every single criterion of "assault-style rifle" is cosmetic, meaning Dick's will still sell guns that function like AR-15s, they just won't sell guns that look like AR-15s.

3. Dick's has never sold bump stocks, ever.

I agree. What will probably happen, unfortunately, is the NRA or other groups (even just people together online or something) will call for a boycott and more BS. If a company wants to not sell something/put regulations on how they are conducting the sales while not being discriminatory to a certain peoples, let them. CVS stopped selling tobacco, and I think that was their right as well.
Why would a boycott be "unfortunate"? You're completely right, that Dick's is free to do this. And the NRA is free to boycott.
 

BleedBlueGold

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That's half-fake news. At the very least, it lacks context.

1. Dick's hasn't sold "assault-style" rifles outside of their 35 specialized "Field and Stream" stores since Sandy Hook.

2. Every single criterion of "assault-style rifle" is cosmetic, meaning Dick's will still sell guns that function like AR-15s, they just won't sell guns that look like AR-15s.

3. Dick's has never sold bump stocks, ever.


Why would a boycott be "unfortunate"? You're completely right, that Dick's is free to do this. And the NRA is free to boycott.

1. They mention that in the article. Did you even read it?
2. Criteria for "assault-style rifles" are usually state-based, from what I've been able to find. Dick's is a national franchise, which is why I edited my post and requested an actual definition of "assault weapon" and "high capacity mags."
3. He's just taking a stance on not carrying them.
 

NorthDakota

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That's half-fake news. At the very least, it lacks context.

1. Dick's hasn't sold "assault-style" rifles outside of their 35 specialized "Field and Stream" stores since Sandy Hook.

2. Every single criterion of "assault-style rifle" is cosmetic, meaning Dick's will still sell guns that function like AR-15s, they just won't sell guns that look like AR-15s.

3. Dick's has never sold bump stocks, ever.


Why would a boycott be "unfortunate"? You're completely right, that Dick's is free to do this. And the NRA is free to boycott.

You mean I can still get a ruger mini 14? Lol what a joke.
 

RDU Irish

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Come on though. Bicycles and pools are not used to kill others though. A gun has one major function: to do bodily harm to another*.

*Yes used for sport, target practice, etc as well.

I don't own a gun but I benefit from the herd immunization effect of criminals assuming that I MIGHT have a gun. A previous article I posted claimed hundreds of thousands of crimes are defended/prevented annualy due to guns without ever firing a shot.

How many of these stories are out there? Dude likely saved someone's life. NRA instructor tells how he used his AR-15 to stop Oswego stabbing - Aurora Beacon-News
 

wizards8507

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You mean I can still get a ruger mini 14? Lol what a joke.
That's #1 on my wish list, even in Connecticut. I'm getting a Ruger Mini-14 first. Then a Remington 870. Then a Colt Series 70 (1911 Government Model). Then, someday, when I'm rich and fat(ter), a Colt Single-Action Army.
 

GowerND11

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Why would a boycott be "unfortunate"? You're completely right, that Dick's is free to do this. And the NRA is free to boycott.

It's not that a boycott in and of itself is bad or wrong or unfortunate. The problem arises that people will undoubtedly be total dicks, making up fake memes about Dick's, and so on. Not so much the NRA, but individuals. That's the unfortunate part.

I don't own a gun but I benefit from the herd immunization effect of criminals assuming that I MIGHT have a gun. A previous article I posted claimed hundreds of thousands of crimes are defended/prevented annualy due to guns without ever firing a shot.

How many of these stories are out there? Dude likely saved someone's life. NRA instructor tells how he used his AR-15 to stop Oswego stabbing - Aurora Beacon-News

I'm for gun ownership too, while not owning. I just mean you can slant something no matter what depending on which side you fall on.
 

Wild Bill

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The only thing your side is resisting is admitting the fact that y'all are Russian cucks... Rucks?

That only gets under the skin of people who, at some level, recognize the truth of it, which is why the term works so well when used to describe political cucks.

It certainly didn't start with Trump. It would be an interesting, years-long study to pinpoint when society jumped the shark. Maybe the boiling point is the same point at which social media in our country became most saturated?

Social media certainly hasn't helped but we've had issues even before social media, including mass shootings.
 

ND NYC

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I don't think so, but I do think it's significantly worse in American society for several reasons. We're seeing an entire culture under attack and being essentially obliterated in only a generation or two. Hard for anyone to adapt well to that, and many of the changes are undeniably unhealthy and downright destructive to individuals and society as a whole. There's been an enormous erosion of civility, following the golden rule, respect for anyone who's values or views differ from yours, a polarization of the political camps, and a general coarsening of culture and society. Lots of reasons why, many of them unique to the US or at least much more prevalent here. Social media and the ability to lash out, fuel the fires, and say almost anything anonymously on the Internet haven't helped.

and it all starts at the top with Trump...
 

ACamp1900

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and it all starts at the top with Trump...

Valid currently, he should be a better leader, but the decline and divide was here long before our current POTUS was elected... hell, I'd say our erosion and divide was a big reason Trump even became President not the other way around.
 

Bishop2b5

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and it all starts at the top with Trump...

I understand that many of you want to put all of this on Trump, but this didn't start in November of 2016. The coarsening of our society, trend towards intolerance of others' views, erosion of civility, and the fueling of every fire via social media and the Internet has been happening at an ever quickening pace for at least the past 30-35 years. Trump's a result, not the cause.
 

ND NYC

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I understand that many of you want to put all of this on Trump, but this didn't start in November of 2016. The coarsening of our society, trend towards intolerance of others' views, erosion of civility, and the fueling of every fire via social media and the Internet has been happening at an ever quickening pace for at least the past 30-35 years. Trump's a result, not the cause.

he is no doubt "gas on the fire"
 

Bishop2b5

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he is no doubt "gas on the fire"

Of course, but the Antifa types assaulting those they don't agree with and the crudeness and over-the-line behavior of many anti-Trump protesters is as bad or worse and contributes to the problem just as much. All of that is still just a small part of a much larger problem with discourse, culture, and our society in general. Popular culture has glorified vulgarity and crudeness, we've stopped teaching or demanding civility and respect to and from others, and there's such a widening gap and polarization between camps that I don't see a way back any longer. Changes in society and culture can often be good, but we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
 

ACamp1900

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Of course, but the Antifa types assaulting those they don't agree with and the crudeness and over-the-line behavior of many anti-Trump protesters is as bad or worse and contributes to the problem just as much. All of that is still just a small part of a much larger problem with discourse, culture, and our society in general. Popular culture has glorified vulgarity and crudeness, we've stopped teaching or demanding civility and respect to and from others, and there's such a widening gap and polarization between camps that I don't see a way back any longer. Changes in society and culture can often be good, but we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Completely reasonable conservatives being labeled as 'hate speech' and banned from certain public engagements... it's crazy...

I will say though, while for the most part you're right, the Antifa crowd (and others you mentioned or touched on) has no real ability to shape the current climate or discussion, Trump does but instead he's just taking us further down the rabbit hole.
 

Bishop2b5

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Completely reasonable conservatives being labeled as 'hate speech' and banned from certain public engagements... it's crazy...

I will say though, while for the most part you're right, the Antifa crowd (and others you mentioned or touched on) has no real ability to shape the current climate or discussion, Trump does but instead he's just taking us further down the rabbit hole.

Fair points and I tend to agree with you. As for Conservatives (or any reasonable, civil speaker) being banned from campuses, threatened, or protested so violently that they're effectively banned, it's ridiculous and harmful. A speaker advocating for something virtually everyone knows is wrong such as burning churches, molesting children, terrorism, etc. is understandable, but making it impossible for someone who has a reasonable but different view is so counter to what our nation stands for and the principles of free speech, tolerance of different viewpoints, and the idea of just educating yourself about all aspects of an issue.

When a young person goes off to college, a huge part of their education takes place outside of the classroom. It's being exposed to other ideas, stepping outside their narrow view of the world, hearing other viewpoints, being forced to examine new ideas and compare their own beliefs with them and then either defend their beliefs or come to understand that other ideas may, in fact, be more correct. The insulated, "I'm not going to listen to anyone who has a different view" crowd on many of today's campuses are missing out on that aspect of their education, intellectual growth, becoming well-rounded, and process of maturing.
 

Legacy

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Of course, but the Antifa types assaulting those they don't agree with and the crudeness and over-the-line behavior of many anti-Trump protesters is as bad or worse and contributes to the problem just as much. All of that is still just a small part of a much larger problem with discourse, culture, and our society in general. Popular culture has glorified vulgarity and crudeness, we've stopped teaching or demanding civility and respect to and from others, and there's such a widening gap and polarization between camps that I don't see a way back any longer. Changes in society and culture can often be good, but we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Well said, Bishop. This is very good thread and exchange, though I expect nothing less on this site.

I think other countries have succeeded because there has been a free exchange and that a majority of citizens agree on their responsibility to place restrictions on weapons to the social good and safety of their citizens, which was then reflected in their laws. That consensus made their buybacks successful, too.

That said, the U.S. will always need to respect the constitutional rights embodied in our federalism on some aspects, which give a measure of autonomy to states whether Connecticut or North Dakota.

North Dakota Gun Laws (NRA)

A fuller explanation:
North Dakota Gun Laws (Giffords Law Center)

Let's also acknowledge that anyone who wishes to defend their family is not going to do that with a military-style weapon, but pick up a handgun instead. Such a feeling that they need to protect their family may also generate a commitment to protect their family outside of the home such as when their kids go to school.
 
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NorthDakota

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If one state doesn't recognize another state's concealed carry permits, that's 100% cool with me.
 

connor_in

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Of course, but the Antifa types assaulting those they don't agree with and the crudeness and over-the-line behavior of many anti-Trump protesters is as bad or worse and contributes to the problem just as much. All of that is still just a small part of a much larger problem with discourse, culture, and our society in general. Popular culture has glorified vulgarity and crudeness, we've stopped teaching or demanding civility and respect to and from others, and there's such a widening gap and polarization between camps that I don't see a way back any longer. Changes in society and culture can often be good, but we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

tumblr_p06mcyf0VY1tctq75o1_540.gif
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Fair points and I tend to agree with you. As for Conservatives (or any reasonable, civil speaker) being banned from campuses, threatened, or protested so violently that they're effectively banned, it's ridiculous and harmful. A speaker advocating for something virtually everyone knows is wrong such as burning churches, molesting children, terrorism, etc. is understandable, but making it impossible for someone who has a reasonable but different view is so counter to what our nation stands for and the principles of free speech, tolerance of different viewpoints, and the idea of just educating yourself about all aspects of an issue.

When a young person goes off to college, a huge part of their education takes place outside of the classroom. It's being exposed to other ideas, stepping outside their narrow view of the world, hearing other viewpoints, being forced to examine new ideas and compare their own beliefs with them and then either defend their beliefs or come to understand that other ideas may, in fact, be more correct. The insulated, "I'm not going to listen to anyone who has a different view" crowd on many of today's campuses are missing out on that aspect of their education, intellectual growth, becoming well-rounded, and process of maturing.

So I take it you're in favor of the Fairness Doctrine or similar regulation governing the use of public airwaves and infrastructure to mandate that broadcasts provide consumers with media that exposes them "to other ideas, stepping outside their narrow view of the world, hearing other viewpoints, being forced to examine new ideas and compare their own beliefs with them and then either defend their beliefs or come to understand that other ideas may, in fact, be more correct" then?
 

ACamp1900

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I definitely believe a reaction to guns could help gun violence and that's a conversation worth having but that guns are not the real issue here as Bishop talked about... this is a culture issue and anyone not wanting to have that discussion, in my opinion, is just using 'guns' as a political football.
 

Bishop2b5

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This is an interesting point. My grandfather told me a story a long time ago about selling or buying (I forget) a shotgun on a school bus. I was like.... wtf you cannot be serious if someone whipped out a shotgun on a school bus today it would not be a normal day-to-day thing. In fact, it'd be national news. He said everyone carried knives at all times and never thought twice about it.

Wouldn't surprise me at all. Definitely a different time and view of things. This reminds me of something that seems almost as amazing today. When I was a kid and going back to at least my dad's generation, HS students drove many of the school buses. I rode the bus until I was 16, and my bus driver was a guy who was only 17 or 18. My dad and one of his brothers drove a school bus when they were in HS. Hard to imagine letting a relatively inexperienced 17-year-old drive a bus full of kids around now, but it was very common back in the day.

As a humorous aside, the guy who drove my bus installed a stereo and speakers in it and we listened to the radio to and from school every day. There was a minor hit song called DOA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTmFrNjqOmo) sometime in the early 70's that featured sirens (it was about a guy in a bad accident dying in the ambulance on the way to the hospital). Every time that song would come on and the sirens would start, our driver would get all panicky and start slowing down and looking in his mirrors, thinking he was being pulled over. Just one of those stupid memories from my youth that stuck for some reason.
 

Wild Bill

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Completely reasonable conservatives being labeled as 'hate speech' and banned from certain public engagements... it's crazy...

I will say though, while for the most part you're right, the Antifa crowd (and others you mentioned or touched on) has no real ability to shape the current climate or discussion, Trump does but instead he's just taking us further down the rabbit hole.

Politics is downstream from culture, as Andrew Breitbart once put it, and groups like Antifa, or any other fringe group, absolutely are able to shift or shape the discussion far more than a politician.

Your example above is a good illustration of their power. Antifa absolutely played a role in re-defining what is "acceptable" speech in the minds of many people. That's a significant cultural shift that no single politician could have done alone. The risk involved with these groups is that they can be a catalyst to a counter movement with more support. Either way, though, it works to change culture and the discussion.

I think it's obvious Trump isn't going to blow our hair back with his ability to take principled positions on matters he's thought deeply about for years. No. His instincts and his ability to understand which way the cultural winds blow is what separates him from other politicians in the GOP. For years, these conservatives disregarded cultural losses to the left mistakenly believing that PRINCIPLED CONSERVATISM would prevail and win the hearts and minds of the masses. They were wrong, and it took a guy like Trump to show them how wrong they were. This is one of the reasons he's loathed by the left in the media. They thought the cultural battle for America was over, and then this orange maniac comes along and throws a counter punch nobody saw coming. And it hurt.
 
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IrishLion

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As a humorous aside, the guy who drove my bus installed a stereo and speakers in it and we listened to the radio to and from school every day. There was a minor hit song called DOA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTmFrNjqOmo) sometime in the early 70's that featured sirens (it was about a guy in a bad accident dying in the ambulance on the way to the hospital). Every time that song would come on and the sirens would start, our driver would get all panicky and start slowing down and looking in his mirrors, thinking he was being pulled over. Just one of those stupid memories from my youth that stuck for some reason.

When I was in my first few years of grade schoool (early 90's), the lady that drove our bus was in her 80's. She was retired from a really successful business, had plenty of money, and was bored. So she decided to drive a bunch of shithead kids to school and then back home every day.

She installed speakers on the bus and played WEBN (rock station in Cincy) constantly, and also had pulsing strip-lights put in that transitioned from blue to green and then back.

She also took us on "bus field trips" twice a year, where she would send home her own field-trip forms, independent of the school district, for our parents to sign. If they consented, she would take us all to McDonalds and get us kids meals to eat on the bus. If not, you had to get a different ride home that day.

She was the best.

Can't imagine a school district letting that go down these days.
 

ACamp1900

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Politics is downstream from culture, as Andrew Breitbart once put it, and groups like Antifa, or any other fringe group, absolutely are able to shift or shape the discussion far more than a politician.

Your example above is a good illustration of their power. Antifa absolutely played a role in re-defining what is "acceptable" speech in the minds of many people. That's a significant cultural shift that no single politician could have done alone. The risk involved with these groups is that they can be a catalyst to a counter movement with more support. Either way, though, it works to change culture and the discussion.

I think it's obvious Trump isn't going to blow our hair back with his ability to take principled positions on matters he's thought deeply about for years. No. His instincts and his ability to understand which way the cultural winds blow is what separates him from other politicians in the GOP. For years, these conservatives disregarded cultural losses to the left mistakenly believing that PRINCIPLED CONSERVATISM would prevail and win the hearts and minds of the masses. They were wrong, and it took a guy like Trump to show them how wrong they were. This is one of the reasons he's loathed by the left in the media. They thought the cultural battle for America was over, and then this orange maniac comes along and throws a counter punch nobody saw coming. And it hurt.

Valid, but I think we’re talking about different things or I’m wording it poorly... I’m referring to a Presidents ability to bring us all back from the ledge. Trump, and any president, has that ability... we’ve just had a bad run of divisive leaders. No one from Antifa is going to dictate how a country acts or treats each other. A strong, reasonable, unifying presence in the White House could do wonders in this climate.
 

NorthDakota

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This is one of the reasons he's loathed by the left in the media. They thought the cultural battle for America was over, and then this orange maniac comes along and throws a counter punch nobody saw coming. And it hurt.

Ben Shapiro and his crowd has helped some making legitimate conservatism cool again. Donald Trump is a gamechanger though. Dude gets everyone all riled up, on both sides.
 

Bishop2b5

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When I was in my first few years of grade schoool (early 90's), the lady that drove our bus was in her 80's. She was retired from a really successful business, had plenty of money, and was bored. So she decided to drive a bunch of shithead kids to school and then back home every day.

She installed speakers on the bus and played WEBN (rock station in Cincy) constantly, and also had pulsing strip-lights put in that transitioned from blue to green and then back.

She also took us on "bus field trips" twice a year, where she would send home her own field-trip forms, independent of the school district, for our parents to sign. If they consented, she would take us all to McDonalds and get us kids meals to eat on the bus. If not, you had to get a different ride home that day.

She was the best.

Can't imagine a school district letting that go down these days.

Very cool. Senior year of HS we had a new teacher for Senior English. She'd just retired from teaching at the college level and her last name was Hornbuckle... stereotypical little old blue-haired English teacher... except she brought in a stereo and let us play Floyd, Zeppelin, Jeff Beck, Yes, and almost anything else we wanted as long as we worked hard and learned to write well. Hell of a teacher and she made ENG 101 at college a breeze for me the next year.
 
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