Another Shooting

[SonofOahu]

Seems like we need one running thread to cover new shootings.

Texas Church Shooting

 

[Bishop2b5]

What the hell is wrong with people? You can sort of understand someone getting mad and shooting the person or people they're mad at, but to just randomly kill a bunch of innocent people? Small town Texas in church on a Sunday morning. Not many places in the country you could've felt much safer or less likely to be the victim of something like this.

 

[phork]

Seems like we need one running thread to cover new shootings.

Texas Church Shooting

I think each shooting should have its own thread. One thread makes it feel like the old "Thoughts & Prayers" line.

 

[BGIF]

I think each shooting should have its own thread. One thread makes it feel like the old "Thoughts & Prayers" line.

I agree each tragedy warrants it own thread.

 

[phgreek]

Thanks USAF for turning loose a guy, after just a year in your jail, whom you wouldn't have because he cracked a kid's skull...and thanks again for failing to do the paperwork and filing it with the FBI. So not only was he a violent asshole turned loose...but his job prospects were shit for being dishonorably discharged...AAAAAAND he could still buy guns. Can't see anything going wrong there...

I'm not a gun control advocate, but I am for...ya know...Federal Agencies doing the shit they are supposed to do, and preventing evil assholes from taking their training to the civilian "enemy"...Good Hell.

 

[wizards8507]

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[wizards8507]

Bump. Current reporting says 14 wounded and "multiple" fatalities near Miami.

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[zelezo vlk]

Kyrie eleison

 

[ACamp1900]

Bump. Current reporting says 14 wounded and "multiple" fatalities near Miami.

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A school shooting apparently... Man, my heart just breaks, I can't imagine the pain of sending your kid to school and this randomly happening.

 

[irishff1014]

17 dead. The shooter apparently pulled the fire alarm to have more of a target. I believe the news said the largest school in Florida with 3200 plus students.

 

[wizards8507]

"Math teacher Jim Gard says he believes the school administration had sent out an email warning teachers that Cruz had made threats against other teenagers in the past."

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[IrishLax]

In the past few years I’ve done a 180 on guns. I think they should be completely banned in this country... with some exceptions probably for hunters where they have to pass rigorous screening including yearly mental health check ups to be allowed to possess fire arms.

 

[dshans]

Just what type of gun was used and just how easy the access to it was is important.

What is more important, though, is that incidents such as this happen, and continue to happen.

Will this madness never end?

Certain constraints and effective enforcement of existing restrictions are certainly in order.

I cry far too often over events such as this.

 

[Cackalacky]

So more kids are dead? 19 school shootings so far this year.

 

[Cackalacky]

In the past few years I’ve done a 180 on guns. I think they should be completely banned in this country... with some exceptions probably for hunters where they have to pass rigorous screening including yearly mental health check ups to be allowed to possess fire arms.

 

[Cackalacky]

Something must be done. At this point I am fine with blaming the NRA for all these shootings and all the politicians who have taken their money.

 

[dshans]

Supply and Demand.

Does demand drive the supply or the supply drive the demand?

Do lower prices and volume sales command access?

Do hunters with a taste for venison stew regularly use semi-automatic or "bump stock" weapons to mow down herds?

 

[Bishop2b5]

I'm NOT trying to make a point in regards to gun control. This is more about culture and values. When I was a kid, almost every guy I knew in HS carried a pocket knife and had easy access to guns (including pistols), yet the idea of any of us using those guns to shoot up a school or anyplace else was unthinkable, and I don't think it ever occurred to any of us to pull that knife out in a fistfight.

Most of the mass shootings over the past several years seem to have less to do with access to guns than they do to some fundamental change in our culture or values or how people are raised. I find it hard to believe we have more mental health issues today than then - people are people and probably aren't any more prone to psychosis or personality disorders now than then. I think we had MORE access to weapons 30 or 40 years ago and less understanding of mental health issues or access to mental health care, yet far fewer instances of this sort of thing. What's causing this?

 

[Buster Bluth]

I flipped to Fox News to see how they were discussing it and one of their ombudsmen said that we need to strengthen the family dynamic in America. The others sorta sat around and said "yes yes something must be done. We don't know what exactly, but something."

I've got one big bold prediction: nothing will change.

The NRA used to be a formidable force in Republican politics but post-Citizens United it is a behemoth. Unless Mueller takes the NRA down too, public sentiment towards common sense reform will continue to mean nothing to Congress. The NRA is essentially a rallying mechanism for rural Republican men, it's not about gun ownership or gun safety. Take a look at their recent commercial, what a joke.

 

[wizards8507]

Something must be done. At this point I am fine with blaming the NRA for all these shootings and all the politicians who have taken their money.

"Something must be done" is a lovely sentiment but I still haven't seen the "something" that would make any difference whatsoever.

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[wizards8507]

I flipped to Fox News to see how they were discussing it and one of their ombudsmen said that we need to strengthen the family dynamic in America. The others sorta sat around and said "yes yes something must be done. We don't know what exactly, but something."

I've got one big bold prediction: nothing will change.

The NRA used to be a formidable force in Republican politics but post-Citizens United it is a behemoth. Unless Mueller takes the NRA down too, public sentiment towards common sense reform will continue to mean nothing to Congress. The NRA is essentially a rallying mechanism for rural Republican men, it's not about gun ownership or gun safety. Take a look at their recent commercial, what a joke.

Why shouldn't rural Republican men have their interests represented? Honestly, the way you talk about outside money in politics, we'd end up with nobody but the generationally wealthy who would run for national office.

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[Cackalacky]

"Something must be done" is a lovely sentiment but I still haven't seen the "something" that would make any difference whatsoever.

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Of course you haven’t and you likely will refuse any sensible ideas anyway. Australia ridded itself of guns within a year with a ban and gun buyback program. No mass shootings in like two decades. That worked and worked well, quickly. But you will disagree because Libertarianism tells you so and I don’t care. There are many great ideas for gun control. I likewise wish they were almost totally restricted. Its not a sentiment. Its a heartfelt desire. I do what I can do. I write my reps every time a school/public shooting occurs. I don’t own a gun. Never have. I think guns are for weak people and far to powerful to be easily obtained.

It will change if these sackless exscuses for congressman grow a pair and do the right thing. Not gonna happen though. This will pass with more thoughts and prayers and onto the next mass shooting in three days. More kids will die because of guns. Gun stocks will rise tomorrow. America has an access to gun problem.

 

[IrishLax]

I'm NOT trying to make a point in regards to gun control. This is more about culture and values. When I was a kid, almost every guy I knew in HS carried a pocket knife and had easy access to guns (including pistols), yet the idea of any of us using those guns to shoot up a school or anyplace else was unthinkable, and I don't think it ever occurred to any of us to pull that knife out in a fistfight.

Most of the mass shootings over the past several years seem to have less to do with access to guns than they do to some fundamental change in our culture or values or how people are raised. I find it hard to believe we have more mental health issues today than then - people are people and probably aren't any more prone to psychosis or personality disorders now than then. I think we had MORE access to weapons 30 or 40 years ago and less understanding of mental health issues or access to mental health care, yet far fewer instances of this sort of thing. What's causing this?

This is an interesting point. My grandfather told me a story a long time ago about selling or buying (I forget) a shotgun on a school bus. I was like.... wtf you cannot be serious if someone whipped out a shotgun on a school bus today it would not be a normal day-to-day thing. In fact, it'd be national news. He said everyone carried knives at all times and never thought twice about it.

There is data that backs up what you're saying, too. The frequency of school shootings and mass shootings have gone up like crazy recently. Basically since the mass-adoption of social media/Twitter starting in 2011.

I think there are three issues:
1) Our culture is fucked and beyond repair. People aren't raised right, community structures are warped, individualism is basically toxic, etc. I don't want to get long winded, but yeah that's my opinion.
2) Mental health is not addressed adequately in this country. Over-medicating people who don't need it, not helping those that do. Back in the day wackos would be "committed" somewhere... not saying we should go back to that, just saying I truly believe there's a bigger issue than there used to be. Unstable people have their crazy views reinforced by being able to get on the internet and get validation from other crazy strangers. It used to be that if someone was crazy those around them were likely "normal"... and accordingly, they would reinforce "normal" traits and not validate the crazy. This suppressed dangerous, crazy impulses from coming out. With regard to this fucker... I'm sure he got on social media and had is rage fueled.
3) It is way too easy for unstable people to get their hands on guns, period. It's always been easy to get your hands on guns, that hasn't changed. But it's a problem now, because of #1 and #2. You have guns in the hands of people in a culture that is basically complicit in this shit AND you have a serious mental health problem. So it's just a ticking time bomb that will keep going off until you address #3 OR #1 + #2.

The crazy part? Mass shootings isn't even close to the a statistically significant portion of gun violence. Most gun violence occurs in high population density area by people that belong to the party that is ostensibly anti-gun. Gun violence is a complex fucking problem because we let it get out of hand over a period of decades while other countries took steps to curb it.

 

[wizards8507]

Of course you haven’t and you likely will refuse any sensible ideas anyway. Australia ridded itself of guns within a year with a ban and gun buyback program. No mass shootings in like two decades. That worked and worked well, quickly. But you will disagree because Libertarianism tells you so and I don’t care. There are many great ideas for gun control. I likewise wish they were almost totally restricted. Its not a sentiment. Its a heartfelt desire. I do what I can do. I write my reps every time a school/public shooting occurs. I don’t own a gun. Never have. I think guns are for weak people and far to powerful to be easily obtained.

It will change if these sackless exscuses for congressman grow a pair and do the right thing. Not gonna happen though. This will pass with more thoughts and prayers and onto the next mass shooting in three days. More kids will die because of guns. Gun stocks will rise tomorrow. America has an access to gun problem.

Wrong. Australia's homicide rate was already low and falling. The gun buyback had no statistical impact whatsoever. From a University of Melbourne study:

I can't link because it's a PDF but search for Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi for the full study.

A similar study on gun related suicide in Japan showed that lower gun ownership did lead to lower gun suicides, but that people were just offing themselves in different ways.

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[Buster Bluth]

Why shouldn't rural Republican men have their interests represented? Honestly, the way you talk about outside money in politics, we'd end up with nobody but the generationally wealthy who would run for national office.

Publicly funded elections gets us only the wealthy? I think it makes money a nonissue and gets us a level playing field.

Citizens United lets global corporations donate unlimited amounts of money into Political Action Committees. It doesn't have jack to do with an American's wishes.

 

[wizards8507]

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[wizards8507]

Publicly funded elections gets us only the wealthy? I think it makes money a nonissue and gets us a level playing field.

Citizens United lets global corporations donate unlimited amounts of money into Political Action Committees. It doesn't have jack to do with an American's wishes.

What do you think a "global corporation" is, chief?

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[Irishize]

This is an interesting point. My grandfather told me a story a long time ago about selling or buying (I forget) a shotgun on a school bus. I was like.... wtf you cannot be serious if someone whipped out a shotgun on a school bus today it would not be a normal day-to-day thing. In fact, it'd be national news. He said everyone carried knives at all times and never thought twice about it.

There is data that backs up what you're saying, too. The frequency of school shootings and mass shootings have gone up like crazy recently. Basically since the mass-adoption of social media/Twitter starting in 2011.

I think there are three issues:
1) Our culture is fucked and beyond repair. People aren't raised right, community structures are warped, individualism is basically toxic, etc. I don't want to get long winded, but yeah that's my opinion.
2) Mental health is not addressed adequately in this country. Over-medicating people who don't need it, not helping those that do. Back in the day wackos would be "committed" somewhere... not saying we should go back to that, just saying I truly believe there's a bigger issue than there used to be. Unstable people have their crazy views reinforced by being able to get on the internet and get validation from other crazy strangers. It used to be that if someone was crazy those around them were likely "normal"... and accordingly, they would reinforce "normal" traits and not validate the crazy. This suppressed dangerous, crazy impulses from coming out. With regard to this fucker... I'm sure he got on social media and had is rage fueled.
3) It is way too easy for unstable people to get their hands on guns, period. It's always been easy to get your hands on guns, that hasn't changed. But it's a problem now, because of #1 and #2. You have guns in the hands of people in a culture that is basically complicit in this shit AND you have a serious mental health problem. So it's just a ticking time bomb that will keep going off until you address #3 OR #1 + #2.

The crazy part? Mass shootings isn't even close to the a statistically significant portion of gun violence. Most gun violence occurs in high population density area by people that belong to the party that is ostensibly anti-gun. Gun violence is a complex fucking problem because we let it get out of hand over a period of decades while other countries took steps to curb it.

It’s hard to make fair points on the heels of a tragedy b/c emotions run high and all the facts haven’t come in. You, however; make some rational points here.

I have always been a big fan of Ronald Reagan but can admit he was far from perfect and that he made some decisions with which I disagree. One of those was discontinuing the funding of mental health centers. It put a lot of mentally unstable folks on the streets. If we can’t agree on gun control, what excuse is there to not fix the mental health issue?

Another thing I don’t understand is why is America always compared to some small Nordic country, Japan, the UK, Canada or Australia when it comes to healthcare & guns? Is there a country that can truly be an “apples to apples” comparison to the United States? Are those nations truly our equal in population, # of citizens dependent on the State, etc?

 

[Cackalacky]

Wrong. Australia's homicide rate was already low and falling. The gun buyback had no statistical impact whatsoever. From a University of Melbourne study:

I can't link because it's a PDF but search for Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi for the full study.

A similar study on gun related suicide in Japan showed that lower gun ownership did lead to lower gun suicides, but that people were just offing themselves in different ways.

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Lol. That chart shows like a 70 percent decrease per capita. Compared to us the no country has as much gun violence. Of corse it’s low. They had 14 mass shootings in the decade before their law was enacted. They have not had any since IIRC. We have had 19 school shootings in 43 days. Its funny you say there was no statistical improvement. This paper says the exact opposite.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-guns/australia-data-shows-gun-controls-a-huge-success-20-years-after-mass-shooting-idUSKCN0XP0HG

http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf

They saw the biggest decrease in the areas with highest gun population and weakest laws. Ie the strengthening of laws plus removing guns from circulation did contribute to less gun deaths had the biggest effect in the areas with lax laws and hugest gun ownership.

Its a start, probably not idea here but American needs a gun enema. Pull the band aid off so to speak.

 

[phork]

Mental health is a huge issue here, but I think it all starts at home.

I coach youth football and I see it getting worse every year. Coaches can't look at a kid a certain way otherwise Mommy & Daddy get all up in his face. Parents are doing no favours for their kids by helicoptering around them to bail them out. Kids need to be able to fail and learn. Kids are not being prepared to handle the stress of everyday real life.

My oldest lost his mind because his phone number didn't port over to his new provider instantly. I slapped him around a bit and told him to relax. Can you imagine when the boss tells him "Ya Im going to need you to look over these papers this weekend, oh plans eh? Ya sorry about that"