A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[Grahambo]

I'll stretch out a top ten since everyone is gone from the office:

1a. Jon if he is alive
1b. Tyrion
2. The Hound (he's alive y'all)
3. Jorah (he will definitely die though)
4. Show Bronn
5. Book Stannis
6. Book Jaime
7. Theon (yes I'm probably the only one)
8. Ghost
9. Davos
10. Littlefinger

Characters I want to die:

1. Ramsay
2. Roose
3. Khaleesi
4. Bran
5. Melisandre
6. Gregor (again)
7. Sansa
8. Jaqen H'ghar (a man must die)
9. Show Robert Arryn
10. Show Jaime

No love for Varys?! He's one of my favorite. ha

 

[Irish YJ]

Can't wait to die:
1 Ramsay
2 Roose
3 Stannis (if he isn't dead)
4 Walder Frey
5 Balon Greyjoy
6 Alliser
7 Robin Arryn

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I've always thought the warging ability was a red herring.

It might seem that way to the Shownlies, but the Varymyr Sixskins prologue chapter in ADwD makes that pretty unlikely.

Compared to a Mel revival the warging just isn't practical.

Why can't it be both? Perhaps Jon's ability to warg into Ghost (along with the frozen climate) buys enough time for Mel to revive him without coming back like unCat.

Is he stuck in ghost?

Unless his human body is revived, likely yes. Were that to happen, his memories would slowly fade away until there was nothing left of Jon, only Ghost.

Can he then jump out of ghost into someone else later?

Varamyr Sixskins (who is dying) expects that he will lose his skinchanging ability when he possesses the spearwife Thistle, so probably not. In other words, Martin's writing on the subject to date seems to indicate that a skinchangers powers are specific to his or her human body.

Here's a collection of warg and skinchanger references in the series.

 

[Grahambo]

It might seem that way to the Shownlies, but the Varymyr Sixskins prologue chapter in ADwD makes that pretty unlikely.



Why can't it be both? Perhaps Jon's ability to warg into Ghost (along with the frozen climate) buys enough time for Mel to revive him without coming back like unCat.



Unless his human body is revived, likely yes. Were that to happen, his memories would slowly fade away until there was nothing left of Jon, only Ghost.



Varamyr Sixskins (who is dying) expects that he will lose his skinchanging ability when he possesses the spearwife Thistle, so probably not. In other words, Martin's writing on the subject to date seems to indicate that a skinchangers powers are specific to his or her human body.

Here's a collection of warg and skinchanger references in the series.

Wow. A lot of anger on that site.

 

[IrishLax]

So here's something interesting to think about... if they know the casting calls for season 6 and are about to start shooting the next season, then they must already know the plot for that season.

Some of it -- such as the Greyjoy plot lines and Tarly plot lines (which will deviate from the book) -- are probably independent from The Winds of Winter book or already covered in Dance. But everything else will be fresh new from Winds... meaning the plot of that novel has to be at least 90% done, even if not on paper yet.

 

[NDWorld247]

How would people rank the veritably alive characters in terms of "give a shit" if they die? Here's my top 5:
1. Tyrion
2. Bronn

That's it. Honestly don't care about anyone else.

1. Wun wun - the day the last Giant in the realm passes on will be a sad day. I wish the Giants were more prominently featured in the books/show.
2. Arya
3. Tyrion

So here's something interesting to think about... if they know the casting calls for season 6 and are about to start shooting the next season, then they must already know the plot for that season.

Some of it -- such as the Greyjoy plot lines and Tarly plot lines (which will deviate from the book) -- are probably independent from The Winds of Winter book or already covered in Dance. But everything else will be fresh new from Winds... meaning the plot of that novel has to be at least 90% done, even if not on paper yet.

I think they've known the plot for season 6 for quite a while. I also think TWOW is a lot closer to completion than the people in the know are letting on. It makes sense to drag out the suspense and drop it right before Christmas or a month or so before season 6 launches. The longer people worry about it, the better. GRRM is an evil genius.

 

[NDinMich]

So here's something interesting to think about... if they know the casting calls for season 6 and are about to start shooting the next season, then they must already know the plot for that season.

Some of it -- such as the Greyjoy plot lines and Tarly plot lines (which will deviate from the book) -- are probably independent from The Winds of Winter book or already covered in Dance. But everything else will be fresh new from Winds... meaning the plot of that novel has to be at least 90% done, even if not on paper yet.

So let's say TWOW gets released before Season 6. What are the chances A Dream of Spring comes out before Season 7? At the pace GRRM writes, probably pretty unlikely, right? Can/will the writers stretch TWOW into two seasons?

 

[Anchorman]

So let's say TWOW gets released before Season 6. What are the chances A Dream of Spring comes out before Season 7? At the pace GRRM writes, probably pretty unlikely, right? Can/will the writers stretch TWOW into two seasons?

I doubt it, and even then they'd be assuming GRRM can get A Dream of Spring out in two years, etc.

I think part of the reason they weren't too concerned with the fact that things like Shireen, etc. were pushing ahead of the books is that they realize there's a very real chance that S6 is before TWOW, and if not then they're still jumping the books the year after. In short, it's inevitable.

 

[gkIrish]

No love for Varys?! He's one of my favorite. ha

I don't really want to see him die but I also would rather see different people live. He is a good character but I wouldn't lose sleep if he didn't survive until the end.

Can't wait to die:
1 Ramsay
2 Roose
3 Stannis (if he isn't dead)
4 Walder Frey
5 Balon Greyjoy
6 Alliser
7 Robin Arryn

Forgot about him. He needs to die.

 

[GATTACA!]

It might seem that way to the Shownlies, but the Varymyr Sixskins prologue chapter in ADwD makes that pretty unlikely.



Why can't it be both? Perhaps Jon's ability to warg into Ghost (along with the frozen climate) buys enough time for Mel to revive him without coming back like unCat.



Unless his human body is revived, likely yes. Were that to happen, his memories would slowly fade away until there was nothing left of Jon, only Ghost.



Varamyr Sixskins (who is dying) expects that he will lose his skinchanging ability when he possesses the spearwife Thistle, so probably not. In other words, Martin's writing on the subject to date seems to indicate that a skinchangers powers are specific to his or her human body.

Here's a collection of warg and skinchanger references in the series.

WHO YOU CALLING A SHOWNLIE???? The Varamyr stuff could just be setup for Bran. It just seems too obvious that Mel at her lowest point like Thoros was the first time he resurrected Beric (thanks /r/asoiaf) resurrects Jon. Warging is unnecessarily complicated IMO. Resurrected Jon can get right to business, warged Jon has to find another host, save his dying body, convince people he's still Jon, and other stuff Im forgetting.

 

[wizards8507]

So let's say TWOW gets released before Season 6. What are the chances A Dream of Spring comes out before Season 7? At the pace GRRM writes, probably pretty unlikely, right? Can/will the writers stretch TWOW into two seasons?

GRRM has blogged that D&D want a seven season show but that the HBO people want ten. That's the only chance we'd see ADoS before the show ends, and even then it's unlikely.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[Irish YJ]

GRRM has blogged that D&D want a seven season show but that the HBO people want ten. That's the only chance we'd see ADoS before the show ends, and even then it's unlikely.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

As a fan, I'd prefer 10 as well. There is certainly enough content to start splitting the books.

 

[phork]

I think what people are forgetting as well is that TWOW doesn't have to be released to the public to have the plot summaries given to the show runners. There is lots of interesting things they can do for season 6 without having to do too much into TWOW. Where season 7 would be pure TWOW.

Obviously the show isn't going to be around for ADOS. Unless the hold is that Martin is writing both concurrently and just tying up plot points. Etc, which is possible.

 

[Emcee77]

Yup. Couldn't throw it out with the rest of her stuff. Hid it in some rocks.

Jaqen mentoring her because of the potential even though she's a "bad fit" has a lot of parallels to the Anakin Skywalker story.

I was thinking the same thing, with her being trained even though she is "not ready." I can't see her going over to the "Dark Side" though. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

As a fan, I'd prefer 10 as well. There is certainly enough content to start splitting the books.

Oh yeah. They could incorporate some of the lesser plotlines that they have cut, maybe even do some flashback scenes. If R+L=J is real (as I think we all assume it is) D&D are going to have to do more to flesh out the events that led up to Robert's Rebellion (tourney of Harrenhal, Tower of Joy, etc.). That stuff has come up here and there in the show (notably in the crypt at Winterfell in season 5) but show watchers still don't know much about it.

Then, if they really want to get crazy, they could "flash back" to some of the prequel material. Might provide some interesting background about dragons and dragon-riding.

Sam going to Oldtown to study at the Citadel has great framed-narrative potential. They could show him buried in a book about the history of the 7 Kingdoms, maybe the Blackfyre rebellion or the Dance with Dragons, and then jump to showing us some aspect of those wars that sheds light on some aspect of the current events. It could work. (Basically, I'm saying D&D should hire me as a screenwriter.)

 

[Irish YJ]

Oh yeah. They could incorporate some of the lesser plotlines that they have cut, maybe even do some flashback scenes. If R+L=J is real (as I think we all assume it is) D&D are going to have to do more to flesh out the events that led up to Robert's Rebellion (tourney of Harrenhal, Tower of Joy, etc.). That stuff has come up here and there in the show (notably in the crypt at Winterfell in season 5) but show watchers still don't know much about it.

Then, if they really want to get crazy, they could "flash back" to some of the prequel material. Might provide some interesting background about dragons and dragon-riding.

Sam going to Oldtown to study at the Citadel has great framed-narrative potential. They could show him buried in a book about the history of the 7 Kingdoms, maybe the Blackfyre rebellion or the Dance with Dragons, and then jump to showing us some aspect of those wars that sheds light on some aspect of the current events. It could work. (Basically, I'm saying D&D should hire me as a screenwriter.)

Yup, there's a gazillion paths to take. They could go all the way back to the Night's King and Queen, which I would love to see as well.

 

[IrishLax]

I think next season of the show will be flash back heavy involving Bran's weirwood magic.

 

[woolybug25]

So book readers... tell me if this is an accurate statement...

"It is probable that Martin will not finish A Dream of Spring and will leave me without an actual ending to the saga."

If that is true, then i'm not even going to pick up the books. Why would I waste all of that time if I am not even going to get an ending from the guy? I'll just keep watching the show and will pick up the books if he publishes TWoW and is writing ADoS.

 

[Irish YJ]

So book readers... tell me if this is an accurate statement...



If that is true, then i'm not even going to pick up the books. Why would I waste all of that time if I am not even going to get an ending from the guy? I'll just keep watching the show and will pick up the books if he publishes TWoW and is writing ADoS.

I'm going to tackle the books this fall/winter. In talking to the book readers around me, I don't like missing out on all the back stories, character depth, history, etc.. Even if I don't get a book ending, I'll get an HBO ending, with a better understanding of it all by reading the books. Unless that is, the show takes a drastic turn from the books (which I doubt).

 

[gkIrish]

I was thinking the same thing, with her being trained even though she is "not ready." I can't see her going over to the "Dark Side" though. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.



Oh yeah. They could incorporate some of the lesser plotlines that they have cut, maybe even do some flashback scenes. If R+L=J is real (as I think we all assume it is) D&D are going to have to do more to flesh out the events that led up to Robert's Rebellion (tourney of Harrenhal, Tower of Joy, etc.). That stuff has come up here and there in the show (notably in the crypt at Winterfell in season 5) but show watchers still don't know much about it.

Then, if they really want to get crazy, they could "flash back" to some of the prequel material. Might provide some interesting background about dragons and dragon-riding.

Sam going to Oldtown to study at the Citadel has great framed-narrative potential. They could show him buried in a book about the history of the 7 Kingdoms, maybe the Blackfyre rebellion or the Dance with Dragons, and then jump to showing us some aspect of those wars that sheds light on some aspect of the current events. It could work. (Basically, I'm saying D&D should hire me as a screenwriter.)

That's actually brilliant. Flashback to anything you want to INCLUDING Ned for a few episodes. Who doesn't want to see Ned again? I wouldn't mind an entire episode devoted to telling the story of killing the Mad King and another devoted to Rhaegar/Lyanna. And maybe another devoted to the birth of Tyrion...

 

[Irish YJ]

That's actually brilliant. Flashback to anything you want to INCLUDING Ned for a few episodes. Who doesn't want to see Ned again? I wouldn't mind an entire episode devoted to telling the story of killing the Mad King and another devoted to Rhaegar/Lyanna. And maybe another devoted to the birth of Tyrion...

Agree. Hell, I wouldn't mind a whole season or two devoted to historical events.

 

[wizards8507]

That's actually brilliant. Flashback to anything you want to INCLUDING Ned for a few episodes. Who doesn't want to see Ned again? I wouldn't mind an entire episode devoted to telling the story of killing the Mad King and another devoted to Rhaegar/Lyanna. And maybe another devoted to the birth of Tyrion...

Yes yes yes. That could honestly do an entire season of Robert's Rebellion. Sean Bean, Charles Dance, Stephen Dillane, Liam Cunningham. Recast Gerard Butler as "young" Robert Baratheon.

 

[Huntr]

Honestly, I don't recommend the books to anyone who only watches the show, unless they're completely aware of what they're in for. Just saying, you'll probably hate the books, unless you're really into this kind of shit and if you are, you've probably already read them.

 

[wizards8507]

Ask the Maester: Some Real Talk About the Jon Snow Situation «

 

[woolybug25]

Honestly, I don't recommend the books to anyone who only watches the show, unless they're completely aware of what they're in for. Just saying, you'll probably hate the books, unless you're really into this kind of shit and if you are, you've probably already read them.

So... you're saying that if you're not a nerdy disney-entrenched reprobate like Wiz, then just watch the show?

 

[IrishLax]

Yes yes yes. That could honestly do an entire season of Robert's Rebellion. Sean Bean, Charles Dance, Stephen Dillane, Liam Cunningham. Recast Gerard Butler as "young" Robert Baratheon.

Now we're cooking with oil.

 

[Irish YJ]

Ask the Maester: Some Real Talk About the Jon Snow Situation «

LOL for the Coldplay reference.

 

[Huntr]

So... you're saying that if you're not a nerdy disney-entrenched reprobate like Wiz, then just watch the show?

Pretty much. I'm a total geek for this kind of crap, but I hated AFfC so much, I didn't read ADwD until right before this season of the show and only then because I happened across it at the library.

 

[Emcee77]

That's actually brilliant. Flashback to anything you want to INCLUDING Ned for a few episodes. Who doesn't want to see Ned again? I wouldn't mind an entire episode devoted to telling the story of killing the Mad King and another devoted to Rhaegar/Lyanna. And maybe another devoted to the birth of Tyrion...

Yes yes yes. That could honestly do an entire season of Robert's Rebellion. Sean Bean, Charles Dance, Stephen Dillane, Liam Cunningham. Recast Gerard Butler as "young" Robert Baratheon.

Oh yeah. I think we're on to something. Let's find Benioff and Weiss on Twitter and do some Grubl-level stalking.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

WHO YOU CALLING A SHOWNLIE????

I know you've read the books, which is why I said "Shownlies" instead of "you".

The Varamyr stuff could just be setup for Bran.

Bran hasn't died, and there's no indication that he's going to. But as for Jon:

• He has died, in close proximity to his wolf;
• Melisandre warned him repeatedly that he should keep Ghost close to him at all times; and
• D&B went out of their way to show Ghost this season (setting up a "Previously on GoT" cut scene for when he gets resurrected next season).

There's just too much circumstantial evidence for it to be a red herring.

It just seems too obvious that Mel at her lowest point like Thoros was the first time he resurrected Beric (thanks /r/asoiaf) resurrects Jon. Warging is unnecessarily complicated IMO.

As I conceded earlier, I don't disagree with this point at all. Mel's presence at Castle Black when Jon is assassinated is very unlikely to be coincidental. But I don't think it's an either/or situation. Jon's connection with Ghost and Mel's "kiss of life" are likely to play a role in Jon's resurrection.

Resurrected Jon can get right to business, warged Jon has to find another host, save his dying body, convince people he's still Jon, and other stuff Im forgetting.

I think this is the source of our disagreement. No one thinks that Jon is going to skinchange out of Ghost and into a new human host. Based on what Martin has written thus far, that's probably impossible. He's going to inhabit Ghost for a while (perhaps breaking out of confinement and ripping some traitorous throats out) before Mel revives him.

Honestly, I don't recommend the books to anyone who only watches the show, unless they're completely aware of what they're in for. Just saying, you'll probably hate the books, unless you're really into this kind of shit and if you are, you've probably already read them.

Can't disagree with this more. Parts of AFfC frustrated me as well, but that's largely because the first three books (especially ASoS) are so ridiculously good. ASoIaF is easily the best fiction series of the last several decades. If you enjoy fiction, wooly, dive into AGoT.

 

[pkt77242]

I know you've read the books, which is why I said "Shownlies" instead of "you".



Bran hasn't died, and there's no indication that he's going to. But as for Jon:

• He has died, in close proximity to his wolf;
• Melisandre warned him repeatedly that he should keep Ghost close to him at all times; and
• D&B went out of their way to show Ghost this season (setting up a "Previously on GoT" cut scene for when he gets resurrected next season).

There's just too much circumstantial evidence for it to be a red herring.




As I conceded earlier, I don't disagree with this point at all. Mel's presence at Castle Black when Jon is assassinated is very unlikely to be coincidental. But I don't think it's an either/or situation. Jon's connection with Ghost and Mel's "kiss of life" are likely to play a role in Jon's resurrection.



I think this is the source of our disagreement. No one thinks that Jon is going to skinchange out of Ghost and into a new human host. Based on what Martin has written thus far, that's probably impossible. He's going to inhabit Ghost for a while (perhaps breaking out of confinement and ripping some traitorous throats out) before Mel revives him.



Can't disagree with this more. Parts of AFfC frustrated me as well, but that's largely because the first three books (especially ASoS) are so ridiculously good. ASoIaF is easily the best fiction series of the last several decades. If you enjoy fiction, wooly, dive into AGoT.

Is it really that much better than the Malazan series? Also have you read Name of the Wind?