A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[Whiskeyjack]

Meh, isn't it yalla or something in the series?

Yarra.

Robbs love interest not even close to the book. Tywin having arya as cupbearer? Robb confronting jaime? I guess it made for good tv, but not even close.

Get used to it. Condensing Martin's plot lines into 10 hours of TV is a herculean task. Some characters and plot lines have to be cut entirely, others have to be combined. I thought they did a great job.

For instance, Richard Madden and Charles Dance (Robb Stark and Tywin Lannister) are important actors and fan favorites, but the characters they play have very insignificant roles in ACOK. The producers found ways to give them screen time in season 2-- by moving up and showing Robb's disastrous romance (his fling with Jeyne Westerling occurs entirely off-screen in the books), and by replacing Roose Bolton with Tywin in Harrenhal.

Did the story suffer at all as a result? I think it was actually improved in some aspects. The way they ended Dany's storyline in season 2 was much cleaner and satisfying than her ending in ACOK.

 

[mgriff]

Here read these threads. It will take an inordinate amount of time to read them all, but the first few will give the necessary information quoted which I'm trying to convey, to no avail, here.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/59571-the-wall-the-watch-and-a-heresy/page__p__2822016#entry2822016<sup id="cite_ref-Racok51_1-0" class="reference">
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[polishjuice4]

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[IrishinTN]

GRRM has said that unless you see the dead body in a POV assume he's not dead. I don't think he can kill Jon Snow yet because of the major implications he has in the Song of Ice and Fire. He is the combination of the Targaryen(Fire) and Stark(Ice). Even when we do see dead bodies like Cat, she comes back as UnCat.

I guess I mis-spoke (mistyped?). I really don't think he killed Jon off, but one way around killing him off is to have him move is essence to his wolf until he could find another human host. but the bigger possibility is that his Wildling buddy came to his rescue and we'll find that out in the next book.

I loved the series. . . .until book four. Was never a fan of splitting up the characters. And then book five (which won all kinds of awards, I know) was a huge disappointment. Especially after waiting ten years to hear the story of those characters. And then. . .nothing really. Dany turns into a slut, tyrion spends his whole time riding a pig, jon gets shafted. The best character in the book was wyman manderly.

Martin has to do better than that, if he lives long enough to write book 6.

I got so pissed when he killed off nearly all the Stark's in SoS that I threw the book and vowed to stop reading...but obviously I didn't. And I hated the way he did book 4 and 5 as well. I firmly believe it was because he didn't have enough on some characters to keep it chronological, but he did have enough to write a book so he did it this way. I know he tried to explain it on his blog, but that was bs. Look how busy this guy is and how long it takes to put a book out. His publisher was screaming for him to finish it and I think he was pedantic enough to say, "Fine, you want a book? Here it is. Live with it."

Will Jon Snow and Daenarys end up being an item in the end since they share Targaryen blood?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I guess I mis-spoke (mistyped?). I really don't think he killed Jon off, but one way around killing him off is to have him move is essence to his wolf until he could find another human host. but the bigger possibility is that his Wildling buddy came to his rescue and we'll find that out in the next book.

I'm sure something along these lines will happen. In aCoK, Jon and Qhorin Halfhand sneak up on and kill a couple wildling sentries (and Jon takes Ygritte as his prisoner). One of the wildings they killed was a warg named Orell, who controlled an eagle. A portion of Orell's consciousness remained in his eagle after death, which hated Jon passionately. That eagle later helped Rattleshirt track down Jon and Qhorin, and scratched Jon's face.

Anyway, there's precedence for it.

I got so pissed when he killed off nearly all the Stark's in SoS that I threw the book and vowed to stop reading...but obviously I didn't.

"All" the Starks? Thus far, only Ned and Robb are truly gone. 6/8 survival rate is pretty damned high by Martin's standards.

Will Jon Snow and Daenarys end up being an item in the end since they share Targaryen blood?

Very possible, but there's no way Martin would write such a happy and predictable ending.

 

[Emcee77]

Will Jon Snow and Daenarys end up being an item in the end since they share Targaryen blood?

I mentioned in another thread that Alfie Allen, the actor who plays Theon in the show and who has been told by Martin the secret of Jon's parentage, said that it's a "bit of a Luke Skywalker situation" or something like that. My first thought was that that just meant that the boy raised by/aligned with the rebels (Jon/Luke) was actually the son of the champion of the Empire (Rhaegar/Vader), but then Allen segued -- perhaps randomly, but perhaps significantly -- into a discussion of the Targaryens and their incestuous ways. Makes me wonder if he was also thinking of Luke and Leia, between whom there is sexual tension before they realize they are brother and sister. So maybe we are headed for a Jon Snow/Daenarys romance.

 

[mgriff]

I'm sure something along these lines will happen. In aCoK, Jon and Qhorin Halfhand sneak up on and kill a couple wildling sentries (and Jon makes Ygritte his prisoner). One of the wildings they killed was a warg named Orell, who controlled an eagle. A portion of Orell's consciousness remained in his eagle after death, which hated Jon passionately. That eagle later helped Rattleshirt track down Jon and Qhorin, and scratched Jon's face.

Anyway, there's precedence for it.



"All" the Starks? Thus far, only Ned and Robb are truly gone. 6/8 survival rate is pretty damned high by Martin's standards.



Very possible, but there's no way Martin would write such a happy and predictable ending.

Also Varamyr Six-Skins who is now living in the One-Eyed wolf which I think Bran, Jojen, Meera, and Hodor encounter on the journey to the Lands of Always Winter. Maybe they don't, but he is in the prologue about how he tried to warg the spearwife and ended up in his wolf because she kills him.

 

[IrishinTN]

"All" the Starks? Thus far, only Ned and Robb are truly gone. 6/8 survival rate is pretty damned high by Martin's standards.

Okay, I once again out-typed myself. At that time, I thought most of the Starks were dead or in circumstances that lead me to believe they were pretty much out of the picture except Arya and Jon. And although Cat is alive, how alive is she really? And I guess the bottom line is Robb was my favorite Character at the time, too. I have since then realized there is no reason to have a favorite character since any one of them could be dead in a few pages.

Speaking of Cat why have we not had any updates on Beric Dondarrion for a while? I kind of liked his revenge cult. Would like to see them take care of more Freys.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Speaking of Cat why have we not had any updates on Beric Dondarrion for a while? I kind of liked his revenge cult. Would like to see them take care of more Freys.

Was that intentional? Beric found Catelyn's body and, despite Thoros' warnings, gave her the Red God's "kiss of life". Attempting to revive someone who had been dead for so long killed Beric (permanently), and brought Cat back as Lady Stoneheart.

Cat took over leadership of Beric's Brotherhood Without Banners, which was an honorable Robin Hood-type organization, and is now a much darker "revenge cult" out for the Lannisters, Boltons, Freys and anyone else Cat feels betrayed Robb.

 

[ojo_223]

This is another point that I am trusting martin on. I was ok with beric being brought back, thought it was cool and it tied in with the magic returning neatly. I was uncomfortable with catelyn, just not sure where this is going? Was the whole point to hang jaime? The ser robert strong is just overkill bordering on rediculousness to me now.

 

[IrishinTN]

See, I forgot about Dondarrion dying. Ugh. It is too long between novels and I am old. Glad there is no test on this once you finish reading because I'd never pass.

Or I flat out confuse the books. At any rate, I am very interested to what happens when Jaime gets to meet Lady Stoneheart.

I am also glad GRRM stopped putting out potential "completion dates" for his novels. I had been getting terribly excited for ADwD and then they would just push the date back again. I wonder how long it will be until the next one? I echo whiskey's concern that he may not live to write the end of this story.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I wonder how long it will be until the next one?

Earliest possible completion date is 2014, which I would be happy with.

I'm hopeful that the HBO series and the heightened profile of aSoIaF will really drive home that these books are his legacy, and he needs to focus on them exclusively; put aside all the insignificant side projects (Wild Cards), sci-fi/ fantasy anthologies, and ComicCon appearances... just work on your damned masterpiece.

 

[beryirish]

I'm sure something along these lines will happen. In aCoK, Jon and Qhorin Halfhand sneak up on and kill a couple wildling sentries (and Jon takes Ygritte as his prisoner). One of the wildings they killed was a warg named Orell, who controlled an eagle. A portion of Orell's consciousness remained in his eagle after death, which hated Jon passionately. That eagle later helped Rattleshirt track down Jon and Qhorin, and scratched Jon's face.

Anyway, there's precedence for it.



"All" the Starks? Thus far, only Ned and Robb are truly gone. 6/8 survival rate is pretty damned high by Martin's standards.


Very possible, but there's no way Martin would write such a happy and predictable ending.

DAMMMNNIIITTT!!! Alright, how did Robb get killed. I am really liking him in the series and want him to get what he wants but damn how does he die....it better not be by Jaime...I hope he gets his own in the series.

TO KING OF THE NORTH!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Emcee77]

lol bery. You probably don't want to know. You now know he dies but you don't know when, and if they do it in the show the same way they did it in the books it might still catch you by surprise.

If you do want to know, just keep reading this spoiler thread though. It's bound to come up; it's one of the most memorable moments in the series.

 

[IrishinTN]

Are you sure you want to know?? Really sure?? Because this will be quite a spoiler, so make sure...are you sure??? Here goes, Robb fell in love with Jayne Westerling and marries her, which horrifies Cat becuase she knows Walder Frey will take this as a great insult. So, Robb arranges for his Uncle (I think) to marry one of Walder's daughters to try to make up for it. However, Walder, being a deceitful, nasty piece of crap, has all of them killed by crossbowman pretending to be musicians after the marriage. Since he invited them into his castle and promised hospitality to them only to murder them during the banquet to celebrate the marriage (known as the Red Wedding), Frey thereby becomes a much hated man around Westeros, but I will leave it at that.

Whiskey/Griff...did I get all that right?

 

[beryirish]

I hate you all



...........

 

[Emcee77]

Earliest possible completion date is 2014, which I would be happy with.

I'm hopeful that the HBO series and the heightened profile of aSoIaF will really drive home that these books are his legacy, and he needs to focus on them exclusively; put aside all the insignificant side projects (Wild Cards), sci-fi/ fantasy anthologies, and ComicCon appearances... just work on your damned masterpiece.

I'm really nervous about this. The tale really grew in the telling, and I feel like it's grown into something he's almost lost control of. The fourth and fifth books are so expansive and sprawling that I would catch myself wondering if he knows where he's going with stuff. He doesn't make detailed outlines in advance, and he has said that he knows basically how he wants the story to end but that he hasn't worked out the details yet, and as the story has grown it has gotten that much harder for him to work out the details (i.e., if so and so is traveling by ship how long would it take to get from point a to point b, and how much would have transpired at point c by that time). I hope that he is over the hump now and that the writing will go faster, but I definitely fear that the series has gotten too big for him and that he will really struggle to figure out how to end it.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

DAMMMNNIIITTT!!! Alright, how did Robb get killed. I am really liking him in the series and want him to get what he wants but damn how does he die....it better not be by Jaime...I hope he gets his own in the series.

TO KING OF THE NORTH!!!!!!!!!!!!

You were warned! Sad to have this spoiled for you though. Ned's execution and the Red Wedding are two of the best twists in the whole series.

I'm really nervous about this. The tale really grew in the telling, and I feel like it's grown into something he's almost lost control of. The fourth and fifth books are so expansive and sprawling that I would catch myself wondering if he knows where he's going with stuff. He doesn't make detailed outlines in advance, and he has said that he knows basically how he wants the story to end but that he hasn't worked out the details yet, and as the story has grown it has gotten that much harder for him to work out the details (i.e., if so and so is traveling by ship how long would it take to get from point a to point b, and how much would have transpired at point c by that time). I hope that he is over the hump now and that the writing will go faster, but I definitely fear that the series has gotten too big for him and that he will really struggle to figure out how to end it.

Martin has admitted that the biggest impediment to his progress has been the "Mereenese Knot"-- the question of how and when to bring Dany back into the main plot lines on Westeros. Given where aDwD left off, I'm hopeful he's past that now, but you never know.

 

[beryirish]

Yeah Ned was pry the biggest surprise in the show yet. Big time actor big time role and he's killed off in the first season....even King Baratheon shocked me...another big actor.

Robb just looked like the character that would ride into the sunset throughout the whole series and come to find out that bastard Martin kills him off too

Martin has a good sense of humor on how all the "good" characters that people tend to like end up getting killed and the "evil" characters live to annoy us another episode.

We'll see what happens. I'm not upset for knowing these facts. I still will get excited watching the series and watching it actually happen it just surprises me that such and such is the one that will see the "sword" next.

I'll go back to being Robin Arryn and sucking on my mother's teet.

 

[Emcee77]

Veer option's q in the other thread:

Can someone answer a question for me please?


***Possible Spoilers below***
My question is, what caused the Starks and Lannisters to dislike each other immensely? The BluRay extras hinted that the chasm between the two factions occurred during the original war between Robert Baratheon and the Mad King (Roberts Rebellion). From what I gathered, Eddard Stark a man of honor, witnessed Tywin Lannister butchering the Targaryen family and this caused him to hate/dislike/distrust the Lannisters. Is this true or is there something else?

That's part of it. Ned Stark thinks of the Lannisters as opportunists and traitors. They supported the Targaryens until the last possible moment, and then betrayed them when it looked like Robert and Ned would win the war. Also, Jamie Lannister killed the Mad King by stabbing him in the back, and then Ned Stark found him sitting on the Iron Throne, as if he were the new king.

Was there more stuff? Probably. Griff will fill it in if so.

Edit: for clarity of record, it was actually Gregor Clegane ("the Mountain") who murdered the Targaryen family, but he did it at Tywin Lannister's direction.

 

[mgriff]

Frey pies! Hahaha. Three missing Freys on the way to Winterfell and Manderly enjoying the best pies he's every tasted. He cooked those ****ers in the pies and fed them to everyone.

Emcee and IrishinTN are both correct.

Elaborating on the Frey issue; Frey is despised by everyone because he broke the guest right. That is something the Old Gods and the New cannot forgive. You see how serious a crime it is with the Rat Cook story of the Night's Watch. The Gods had no problem with him serving the man his son in a pie, but violating the guest right is what caused him to be turned into a rat. Rat Cook - A Wiki of Ice and Fire The laws of hospitality are sacred. Kill whoever you want whenever you want, but not under your roof as guests.

Martin's inspiration comes from The Black Dinner in Scotland. Clan Douglas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mgriff]

So, has anyone read those Heresy threads I linked about my poorly related theory of the Starks/NW/WhiteWalkers/CotF?

Either way, I'm gonna start talking about why Varys is a Blackfyre. You need to have read the Dunk and Egg series to really understand this.

 

[beryirish]

One spoiler that my cousin told me was about Joffrey and his demise....anyone care to share?


Also this was just my thought process at the season 2 finale: there are som many storylines and now you have the white walkers making their march on the wall I just feel it's going to be so many things going on...on top of everything else. So I feel that once Danary's? (I know) dragons grow up I feel they will quickly just torch the white walkers and that's the end of that.....thoughts on that?

 

[IrishinTN]

I'd be loathe to put here about Joffrey only because some folks won't want to know but will be tempted to look because it is listed here. But if you really want to know, I will gladly pm you.

 

[beryirish]

I'd be loathe to put here about Joffrey only because some folks won't want to know but will be tempted to look because it is listed here. But if you really want to know, I will gladly pm you.

Shoot me with it....I know what happens but don't know the details

 

[mgriff]

Shoot me with it....I know what happens but don't know the details

Hahaha go read the books! Or if you want all the spoilers go to A Wiki of Ice and Fire

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So, has anyone read those Heresy threads I linked about my poorly related theory of the Starks/NW/WhiteWalkers/CotF?

I was able to read some of it. Very compelling stuff. It does a great job of undermining the apparent justifications for the wall, the history of the CotF, the motivations of the Others and R'hllor, etc., but the alternative explanations offered are pretty flimsy.

Either way, I'm gonna start talking about why Varys is a Blackfyre. You need to have read the Dunk and Egg series to really understand this.

I'm embarrassed to admit I haven't read the Dunk and Egg series yet, though I'm pretty familiar with them through message board posts. Looking forward to this one... get to it, Griff!

Edit: Speaking of Griffs... if Jon was named by Rhaegar and Lyanna, he's probably named after Connington, and not Arryn.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I found an interesting theory on /r/asoiaf proposing that Quaithe's prophecy was partially fulfilled at the end of ADwD.

I was tremendously disappointed with the ending of ADwD because Martin deliberately frustrated one inevitable and important plot development (Tyrion meeting Dany), and failed to advance the story in any meaningful way. But if the above theory is correct, it at least lends the ending some serious significance that I missed on my first read through.

 

[IrishinTN]

My problem is he takes so long to put the next book out, I can barely remember what happened at the end of the last one or where the frigging characters are. I remember being pissed about the state he left Jon Snow in.

 

[mgriff]

I found an interesting theory on /r/asoiaf proposing that Quaithe's prophecy was partially fulfilled at the end of ADwD.

I was tremendously disappointed with the ending of ADwD because Martin deliberately frustrated one inevitable and important plot development (Tyrion meeting Dany), and failed to advance the story in any meaningful way. But if the above theory is correct, it at least lends the ending some serious significance that I missed on my first read through.

The Mereen chapters were oh so very frustrating but that is something which developed while GRRM was writing the book. He wanted to convey how you can become mired in a military engagement with no real quality options, like Dany has done. It was supposed to be a reflection of our modern military engagement in Iraq where we publicly were trying to do the right thing, but with a clash in culture right and wrong isn't so black and white, and it's the citizens who bear the brunt of these types of military interventions.

He had originally wanted to finish the Battle of Mereen in the previous book, as well as the Battle of Frozen Lakes?(Can't recall what they said the name would be of Stannis v Bolton). These two battles will be the beginning of the Winds of Winter.