A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[ND NYC]

i have come to realize that i have little to no recollection or comprehension of any vital pieces of info in all 5 of the ASOIAF books ive read.

brienne is dead?
brienne killed Cat (UnCat)?

and from the series:
when did melisandre ever take away gendry in any of the books?

is there any chance that the books i downloaded (had hard copy first 2) and i kindled for the last 3 books wer enot exact replicas as what yu guys may have read?---maybe multiple versions out there??

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Why not tell Cat...??? That was clearly a chasm in their relationship, you'd think he would have at least shared with her that the boy isn't really his, he promised to foster the child and is bound by honor through a death bed promise to not share anything beyond that... to let his wife think what she did all of those years is beyond stupid if this theory is on point... unless he flat out didn't trust her??, which never appeared to be the case.

(1) Lyanna, knowing Robert's intense hatred of Targaryens, made Ned promise not to tell anyone out of fear for Jon's life; (2) Ned was loyal to a fault, and took this promise very seriously; and (3) we don't really know how much Ned trusted Cat.

She was initially engaged to Ned's older brother Brandon, and then Ned stood in for Brandon after Aerys murdered him. So their marriage was born out of duty, not love. Catelyn mentions growing to love him with time, but there were many things that Ned didn't share with her. It doesn't strike me as far-fetched, at least given Ned's character.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

brienne is dead?

She's not.

brienne killed Cat (UnCat)?

She hasn't; at least not yet. Some theorize that Brienne killing Catelyn with Oathkeeper may fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy.

when did melisandre ever take away gendry in any of the books?

She didn't, nor did she ever visit the Riverlands. It looks like Cogman cut out Edric Storm, so now Gendry is standing in for him as Mel's sacrificial target. Plus, her trip to the Riverlands in the show created some great dialogue between Mel and Thoros which we never got in the books.

is there any chance that the books i downloaded (had hard copy first 2) and i kindled for the last 3 books wer enot exact replicas as what yu guys may have read?---maybe multiple versions out there??

I'm unaware of different versions of the series. As long as you bought a commercial copy-- either in print or digital format-- you read the same books everyone else did.

 

[IrishLax]

It especially isn't far fetched that Ned didn't tell Cat when you factor in he hardly knew her at all prior to bringing Jon home. Then a couple years go by... what? You're just going to bring it up over breakfast one day? "Hey Cat, now that I trust you... guess what? Jon is actually a Targ/Stark. Crazy ****, huh? Really had you thinking he was a bastard!"

Personally, I think Jon is locked in to being AA because of the odd choice of words about "smoking" blood as he "dies"... steaming would be the typical word choice, so I have to believe GRRM was being intentional. Plus he has the preponderance of evidence in his favor that only Dani really challenges.

I think at the end of the day the 3 heads of the dragon are Jon, Dani, and Tyrion... Tyrion is definitely the iffiest though.

 

[ACamp1900]

(1) Lyanna, knowing Robert's intense hatred of Targaryens, made Ned promise not to tell anyone out of fear for Jon's life; (2) Ned was loyal to a fault, and took this promise very seriously; and (3) we don't really know how much Ned trusted Cat.

She was initially engaged to Ned's older brother Brandon, and then Ned stood in for Brandon after Aerys murdered him. So their marriage was born out of duty, not love. Catelyn mentions growing to love him with time, but there were many things that Ned didn't share with her. It doesn't strike me as far-fetched, at least given Ned's character.

The fist part is just lots of assumptions honestly... and none of that answers my question anyway...

The second I understand totally but yeah... just tell her Jon isn't his, the rest he is bound by honor to not speak of... easy fix.

 

[ACamp1900]

Jon's dead btw....didn't ya'll hear??

 

[ACamp1900]

It especially isn't far fetched that Ned didn't tell Cat when you factor in he hardly knew her at all prior to bringing Jon home. Then a couple years go by... what? You're just going to bring it up over breakfast one day? "Hey Cat, now that I trust you... guess what? Jon is actually a Targ/Stark. Crazy ****, huh? Really had you thinking he was a bastard!" .

When Ned sees for years that his wife basically wants to kill the kid any time his name is even mentioned, then yeah... though I never said anything about mentioning who his real parents were...

 

[IrishinTN]

I am interested to see if people stop watching the series after the events of The Red Wedding. I'll be honest, I stopped reading for about a week after that. Man, I was pissed.

 

[ACamp1900]

Would not suprise me to see ratings drop after enough good characters die off...

 

[IrishLax]

When Ned sees for years that his wife basically wants to kill the kid any time his name is even mentioned, then yeah... though I never said anything about mentioning who his real parents were...

You'd have to.

Ned: Jon isn't my kid.
very next question Cat: Then who are his parents and why are you pretending he is your bastard?
Ned: I plead the fifth.

Dunno what relationships you've been in... but there is no way a girl let's the convo end there LOL.

Plus, I don't really think Ned gives a crap about Jon getting a little scorn from Cat. Better safe than potentially sorry. And I doubt he would break his deathbed promise even if he did really care about Jon's feelings.

 

[IrishinTN]

It especially isn't far fetched that Ned didn't tell Cat when you factor in he hardly knew her at all prior to bringing Jon home. Then a couple years go by... what? You're just going to bring it up over breakfast one day? "Hey Cat, now that I trust you... guess what? Jon is actually a Targ/Stark. Crazy ****, huh? Really had you thinking he was a bastard!"

Personally, I think Jon is locked in to being AA because of the odd choice of words about "smoking" blood as he "dies"... steaming would be the typical word choice, so I have to believe GRRM was being intentional. Plus he has the preponderance of evidence in his favor that only Dani really challenges.

I think at the end of the day the 3 heads of the dragon are Jon, Dani, and Tyrion... Tyrion is definitely the iffiest though.

Heck no, she's grumpy in the morning. I'd wait until dinner.

I have been mulling and discussing Jon as Targ/Stark for a while now and have come to believe it is the truth. And I agree with Whisky, and have told my friend watching the series the same thing, that Ned makes a promise (whomever it was to) and that promise is even bigger to him than his wedding vows. It is more important to keep the child's existence a secret than it is to lose honor in his marriage.

On a side note, I never really like the casting of Cat in the series. She was supposed to be a fairly attractive, auburn-haired chick in the books. But I don't think this lady fits that description.

 

[ND NYC]

She's not.



She hasn't; at least not yet. Some theorize that Brienne killing Catelyn with Oathkeeper may fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy.



She didn't, nor did she ever visit the Riverlands. It looks like Cogman cut out Edric Storm, so now Gendry is standing in for him as Mel's sacrificial target. Plus, her trip to the Riverlands in the show created some great dialogue between Mel and Thoros which we never got in the books.



I'm unaware of different versions of the series. As long as you bought a commercial copy-- either in print or digital format-- you read the same books everyone else did.

maybe I'm not going crazy after all...thx for the clarifications whiskey!

 

[ACamp1900]

You'd have to.

Ned: Jon isn't my kid.
very next question Cat: Then who are his parents and why are you pretending he is your bastard?
Ned: I plead the fifth.

Dunno what relationships you've been in... but there is no way a girl let's the convo end there LOL.

Plus, I don't really think Ned gives a crap about Jon getting a little scorn from Cat. Better safe than potentially sorry. And I doubt he would break his deathbed promise even if he did really care about Jon's feelings.

It's already established that he could tell her things or make statements and demand she never mention this or that again and she would obey... like the convo they had in bed in GoT about this very topic...

he could easily say, "Look, we will never speak of this again but you are too hard on Jon... if you must know the boy is not even mine, I am sworn to protect him... as well as his true identity... now never speak of this again."


--I don't know if I liked the casting of Cat either... though I like much of the books more anyway...

--I tend to like the theory of Jon's parents for the most part I think I am just caught up on that one aspect, that comes of as REALLY stupid if he just let Cat hate on the kid for no real reason all these years... he could have EASILY stated Jon was an orphan of the war that he somehow found himself indebted to for crying out loud... ANYTHING

--one last thought... and maybe I need to re-read the chapter, by in the chapter that Robert and Ned visit L in the crypt does Robert not imply he knows who Jon's mother is???

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It's already established that he could tell her things or make statements and demand she never mention this or that again and she would obey... like the convo they had in bed in GoT about this very topic...

he could easily say, "Look, we will never speak of this again but you are too hard on Jon... if you must know the boy is not even mine, I am sworn to protect him... as well as his true identity... now never speak of this again."

There are plenty of things Ned didn't share with Catelyn: the Tournament at Harrenhal, Ashara Dayne, his washing up on Sweetsister before the rebellion, etc. He was a very private person. I think you're also over-estimating the level of interaction between Cat and Jon. The Starks weren't a modern family living in a modest-sized home. Cat's disdain for Jon surely caused some awkwardness for him, but it didn't make his life hell either.

--I don't know if I liked the casting of Cat either... though I like much of the books more anyway...

Michelle Fairley is a good actress, but I also pictured someone younger and prettier. It's hard to imagine Littlefinger obsessing over TV-version of Cat.

--I do like the theory of Jon's parents for the most part I think I am just caught up on that one aspect, that comes of as REALLY stupid if he just let Cat hate on the kid for no real reason all these years... he could have EASILY stated Jon was an orphan of the war that he somehow found himself indebted to for crying out loud... ANYTHING

If Ned claimed Jon was simply an orphan, he couldn't have raised him as a high-born child.

 

[ACamp1900]

If Ned claimed Jon was simply an orphan, he couldn't have raised him as a high-born child.

Why does he have to be raised as such??? From Ned's perspective, not the fans'...

 

[IrishLax]

Why does he have to be raised as such??? From Ned's perspective, not the fans'...

For lots of hypothetical reasons. For one, Lyanna could've asked him, presumably, to "raise him as his own"... then everything we're talking about is totally moot.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Why does he have to be raised as such??? From Ned's perspective, not the fans'...

Because he's his nephew, and the heir to the Iron Throne. Ned put great store by things like family, duty, the line-of-succession, etc. Martin described the ways in which Ned tried to prepare Rob to be the next lord of Winterfell; Jon's lineage demanded the same sorts of preparation.

Bringing home a low-born orphan and then insisting that he be treated and taught with one's own children would have raised more than few eyebrows.

 

[ACamp1900]

There are plenty of things Ned didn't share with Catelyn: the Tournament at Harrenhal, Ashara Dayne, his washing up on Sweetsister before the rebellion, etc.

We don't know that he didn't....

I think you're also over-estimating the level of interaction between Cat and Jon. The Starks weren't a modern family living in a modest-sized home. Cat's disdain for Jon surely caused some awkwardness for him, but it didn't make his life hell either.

She clearly views him as a potential threat to her own children as she openly thought as much in GoT when it was made known Jon wanted a life on The Wall... and we all know what Cat would or wouldn't do for her children... if Ned is trying to keep the boy safe it's best to set Cat straight IMO...

look... we clearly disagree and this is feeling like a damn political thread... I believe it was needlessly stupid to have everyone think what they thought about Jon given the circumstance... at least from what we KNOW... not want we assume may be the case...

 

[ACamp1900]

Because he's his nephew, and the heir to the Iron Throne. Ned put great store by things like family, duty, the line-of-succession, etc. Martin described the ways in which Ned tried to prepare Rob to be the next lord of Winterfell; Jon's lineage demanded the same sorts of preparation.

Bringing home a low-born orphan and then insisting that he be treated and taught with one's own children would have raised more than few eyebrows.

and the way you prepare him for the Throne is by never speaking a word to anyone about who he is... and then letting him take a vow to The Wall bascially making his claims all but void from that point forward....

no.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

John also looked like a Stark so labeling him a random orphan might have begun raising questions about his parentage.

Also, if Catelyn was made aware of John's true parentage (assuming we are right on this) she may have viewed his existence as a threat to the well-being of her children since Robert would have been motivated to remove him, if the truth were known, and Eddard would have been motivated to protect him from Robert.

 

[ACamp1900]

John also looked like a Stark so labeling him a random orphan might have begun raising questions about his parentage.

Also, if Catelyn was made aware of John's true parentage (assuming we are right on this) she may have viewed his existence as a threat to the well-being of her children since Robert would have been motivated to remove him, if the truth were known, and Eddard would have been motivated to protect him from Robert.

Who cares about questions, there are already questions...

the rest makes some sense... but it still... no... beacuse she wouldn't know of his true parentage...

lol

unless he just flat out doesn't trust Cat... and thinks she would insist on knowing... which i don't believe to be the case from reading GoT.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

*shrug*

The real motivation is probably to keep readers from guessing. Unfortunately, taking five years between books gives them time to comb over the microscopic clues in painful detail.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We don't know that he didn't....

Martin's given us plenty on this subject to safely infer that Ned did not share this sort of thing with Cat. In chapter 45 of ACoK, Catelyn describes an encounter with Ned where she asks him about the rumors that he had an affair with Ashara Dayne. He basically told her never to bring up again and told her nothing. When the Reeds tell Bran about the Tournament at Harrenhal, it's clear that he had never heard that story before.

She clearly views him as a potential threat to her own children as she openly thought as much in GoT when is was made known Jon wanted a life on The Wall... and we all know what Cat would or wouldn't do for her children... if Ned is trying to keep the boy safe it's best to set Cat straight IMO...

He was an honorable man and expected others to act accordingly (which was ultimately his undoing). He probably thought his word on the matter was enough.

look... we claerly disagree and this is feeling like a damn political thread... I believe is needlessly stupid to have everyone think what they thought about Jon given the circumstance... at least from what we KNOW... not want we assume may be the case...

You're being willfully obtuse here. There's lots of circumstantial evidence for why Ned didn't share this stuff with Catelyn, but since Martin didn't spell it out in black and white (which he rarely does for anything), you're not convinced.

 

[ACamp1900]

Now I'm obtuse??...

wow

 

[ACamp1900]

and the way you prepare him for the Throne is by never speaking a word to anyone about who he is... and then letting him take a vow to The Wall basically making his claims all but void from that point forward....

no.

.

 

[IrishLax]

Now I'm obtuse??...

wow

Yeah, you big fat fatty

 

[Whiskeyjack]

and the way you prepare him for the Throne is by never speaking a word to anyone about who he is... and then letting him take a vow to The Wall bascially making his claims all but void from that point forward....

With Robert on the throne, I don't think Ned was ever really concerned with preparing him to rule. But his lineage demanded a certain sort of upbringing (just as Theon's did as well), which claiming Jon as his bastard allowed him to receive. Sending him to the Wall solved several problems as it removed him from Wintell (and Catelyn), and it also provided him the opportunity to rise to prominence without threatening anyone.

 

[IrishLax]

Again... If Lyanna simply said "promise me Ned... promise me you'll raise him as your own and keep him safe..." this entire discussion is pointless. By virtue of making that promise, Ned would by default be promising to raise him as his bastard.

 

[ACamp1900]

There is still no clear or good reason other than to uphold some fan loved, fan created theory to not tell Cat SOMETHING...


He could have told Cat alone that he was some orphan/wraith/John Elway's second cousin... that he just happened to swear to raise high born... just to make Cat more accepting...

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

There is still no clear or good reason other than to uphold some fan loved, fan created theory to not tell Cat SOMETHING...


He could have told Cat alone that he was some orphan/wraith/John Elway's second cousin... that he just happened to swear to raise high born... just to make Cat more accepting...

But at a minimum he withheld the identity of John's mother. It's not just our working theory that would require Eddard to withhold information from her.