Introduction/QB Question.

Rocket89

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I don't know how anyone can call a guy soft for being injured. Yes, it is unfortunate that the kid suffered two serious injuries in back-to-back seasons, but is the implication that he should've played through a blown ACL and ruptured patella tendon? Because anyone suggesting that loses all credibility in my eyes. If you want to argue that Dayne is unlucky, I would think you're kind of foolish and silly to believe in such things, but I could at least see where you're coming from. But calling a guy soft for suffering a two season-ending injuries is flat-out stupid.

You're soft if you have a strained forearm on your non-throwing arm and ask out of the game; or if you have a bruised shin and you'd rather stand on the sidelines than play through pain. If you sustain an injury that makes you physically unable to play, you aren't soft. You're injured.

I don't think he's soft because of the injuries, although like I said that can be part of the perception.

I think it has to do more with his tenacity, grit, and overall toughness. Maybe we just haven't seen enough of Crist in games to get a fair assessment, and it's ridiculous to expect anyone to play with a blown out knee, but I know I'd like to see a little bit more fire in his eyes.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Everyone likes Dayne on the team dont get me wrong....But the Michigan game last year he lost a lot of respect in the locker room. When Dayne was standing on the sideline while Montana was in....a player from the defensive side of the ball went up to Dayne and asked Dayne if he was alright. Dayne replied he was fine. The defensive player responded if your fine the why the **** are you not in the game...Dayne just stood there.

This is confusing me. As I understand the "official" story, Dayne hit his head on the ground at the end of that long run he broke just before scoring the first TD against Michigan. Afterwards his vision in one eye was blurry. He wanted to go back in, but Kelly understandably didn't want to risk his only capable QB when (1) he might be concussed; and (2) he didn't have the depth perception needed to perform his job.

I suppose that could just be a cover story for Dayne's "softness", (*remove tin foil hat) but that seems very unlikely to me. What are the chances that such a thing could actually be kept secret? Look at the crap that Cutler received in the NL Final, and he was legitimately injured.

Seems like the defensive player above was reading an awful lot into "I'm fine." It could have been "I think I'm fine but coach won't put me in yet," or "I'm a little freaked out about my vision right now, but I want to project confidence and equanimity, so 'I'm fine'".

In any case, perception is reality. If some of his teammates think Dayne is soft, then it's a problem. There's so much riding on this season for him.
 

Whiskeyjack

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What? Out of mana? Sorry, I played a little World of Warcraft years ago. lol

But seriously, who is OOM? You mean OMM?

Yes, I meant OMM. But I'm also OOM; spot me a pot?
 
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Rhode Irish

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If someone asks if you are OK and that person is not a licensed physician, the only acceptable answer is "I'm fine." That doesn't mean he was capable of playing at that moment.

Also, did he not return to that game and help put ND in a position to win it? The game was lost because the defense couldn't hold the lead at the end, not because Crist was "soft." If anything, that game was was the best evidence of Crist's grit. The guy was knocked silly in the first half, and came back in the second half and led a rally back to take the lead.
 

TheTurningPoint

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I think the difference is that....

If Jimmy Clausen said he was "fine" he would be playing whether or not the medical staff (which were terrible btw) said he could.

From the words of the player, "if you are fine, you play. you dont stand on the sideline by yourself. if you are hurt you get treatment. if you are fine you play. you tell the coaches you can go if your fine whether its a lie or not. It was f*ckng michigan."

Like I said before...I have nothing against Dayne. I think he makes ND very very tough if he is able to grow as a player. With that said, I have not been to practice, I can only go by the words of the people that have.

If Hendrix wasn't showing something, then I dont think that this so called "hype" outside of the message boards would be so common. The kid played an excellent Spring Game.

Its not a bad thing that we have 4 serviceable QBs lol. In the past if Clausen/Quinn went down...it was a FML situation. i mean, Evan Sharpley?? lol
 

The Gold Helmets

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The Crist Michigan injury was weird, but I don't think it is fair to call him soft.... There have been some really good points in this thread! I think most on this board think it is Crist to start though it's not clear weather Rees or Hendrix would be second string. Or it could be passing QB 1&2 and runner 1&2.... We shall see. It's going to be interesting to see what Kelley comes up with.
 

BGIF

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Everyone likes Dayne on the team dont get me wrong....But the Michigan game last year he lost a lot of respect in the locker room. When Dayne was standing on the sideline while Montana was in....a player from the defensive side of the ball went up to Dayne and asked Dayne if he was alright. Dayne replied he was fine. The defensive player responded if your fine the why the **** are you not in the game...Dayne just stood there.

That is coming straight from the team. Hendrix showed last year in practice that he is a gamer from many players, and that he has "it".

All the QBs have respect, its just Hendrix is gonna get the team to play for him. When things went wrong last year, Crist disappeared. As much as Clausen took heat for not being a so-called leader, and how Crist was a great leader...I didnt see it. I think Dayne can make them believe in him again, its just that right now theres a little lack of confidence in him.


The posts in this thread are largely similar to those in the other QB threads links NDinL.A. put up. Twenty years later they underscore a Lou Holtz quote, "The fans favorite QB at Notre Dame is the one not playing." Apparently it still is.


I have difficulty with the defensive player comment being the barometer for the team. How does a player lose the respect of his teammates when the medical staff keeps that player off the field? Particularly at a time when far more attention and caution is provided for head injuries. Strikes me as an ignorant or at least uninformed comment by someone unaware of the significance of the medical issue at the time. Are you saying that after that became public (game announcers, post game recaps) that player, or players, felt the same way? Or are you telling us the medical "hold" was a fabrication to cover someone talking himself out of a game?

"Hendrix is gonna get the team to play for him." And we know this because ... Hendrix got rave reviews by his teammates on the Scout team? Demetrious Jones had rave reviews on the Scout team and when he got in a real game he laid the ball on the carpet with proficiency. And Double D never played QB again - anywhere. Or are you saying Hendrix's Blue & Gold game teammates were so impressed by his leadership in a red jersey? The list of B&G Game Heroes be they QBs, RBs, or WRs is legendary. Hard to recall many, (any?) repeating those accomplishments in actual game time.

"When things went wrong last year, Crist disappeared"

What? I remember him “disappearing” in the UM game with an injury. I was moderating the GameDay thread and some Michigan troll (turned out to be a UM student) kept trashing Crist and Kelly. When Rees came in out of the blue the troll was joined by a couple of ND posters “strongly questioning” Kelly's ability to coach for inserting a true freshman in such a situation. I suggested that perhaps Crist got banged up and couldn't answer the bell, hence the seemingly strange timing for a substitution. The Kelly and Crist insults escalated immediately after Rhees threw the flea flicker INT. The boobirds erupted close to a meltdown when Robinson threw for a TD to tie the score. I tossed the troll and told the most vocal complainer to STFU and wait for some clarification from the announcers. Sure enough a sideline report came in that Crist had a vision problem and would not return unless cleared by the medical staff. There was concern about a concussion. Like the defender's uninformed comment some fans some fans were quick to condemn without waiting to learn that Crist was injured and Kelly was forced into Plan B (and then Plan C).

The only other time I recall Crist “disappearing” was his season ending patella injury. Both times he wanted to return but the medical staff grounded him, the last time for the rest of the season.

IF there's a lack of confidence in Crist because he hasn't played a lot, threw some bad balls, and missed some reads THAT would be understandable. He was in a new system and wasn't a polished veteran with 2 dozen career starts. He still isn't.

Nor are any of the other 3 guys. As for game time leadership only 2 guys have demonstrated what they can do under fire.
 

TheTurningPoint

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I think the defensive players meaning was...u dont let the medical staff hold you out against michigan. 15mins of halftime isnt going to make a difference in a 'serious' head injury. I am not calling Dayne soft, I feel that he is far from soft, but its not what I think.

This is where I think the clarification comes into problem. I am not the one saying these things. I was told by a member of the team about this instance, other instances involving Hendrix.

I was referring to Dayne disappearing in most of the Stanford game, and some of the Pitt game. i think as i said before, he just hadnt played live ball for almost 3 1/2 years. Him getting reps with the first team for most of the 2009 season after Clausen got hurt, I felt would have made him a little bit more comfortable in his personal. Of course, that was with a different offense.

Hendrix will get the team to play for him by getting the defense and sp teams to play for him. This is where Clausen failed (a lot to do with coaching though), and where Crist failed at times. From what I have gathered he has that motivating quality that either clausen/crist lack, or just havent showed...the 'it' factor.

I am not calling for Hendrix to start, or Rees to start. I want Crist in there, but the original poster asked a question and I gave an answer from those who actually interact with all 4 on a daily basis! :)
 

tadman95

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I think Crist might be called "injury prone" but soft doesn't seem appropriate. Some people are more injury prone than others, athletes are not excluded from that. I hope Crist stays healthy this year.

I also think Kelly is going to start the QB that gives them the best chance to win, doesn't matter which of the four it is. Remember he is on the "5 minute" plan. None of the four have established themselves ahead of the others, at least publicly. This position, particularly at ND this year, is the single most important position for the performance level to improve the most. Last year's level of play at QB will make this a 8-9 win season at best.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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Even calling Crist "injury prone" may be a bit inaccurate. I don't remember who I watched the WSU game with, but even before Crist hit the ground, I said out loud "His season is over."

I think I still have the Mich and Tulsa game on dvr, and I should check it before I post this, but I am too lazy, and I'm watching "For Love of the Game" right now. Anywho, I watched replays of the Mich hit. I do remember thinking "Ouch." The Tulsa game, if I remember correctly, he may have eased up just a split sec as he was about to go out of bounds. His leg landed just at the moment he got popped. Totally freak timing.


OK I have the play on my screen now. Two things happened here. Dayne had already stepped out of bounds. So, should have been a late hit. Second, it was a clear helmet to helmet shot. No call. It seems he had eased up slightly, then braced for the hit. His knee kinda buckled.
 

BGIF

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I think the defensive players meaning was...u dont let the medical staff hold you out against michigan. 15mins of halftime isnt going to make a difference in a 'serious' head injury. I am not calling Dayne soft, I feel that he is far from soft, but its not what I think.

I don't know which is the more egregious statement ... "u dont let the medical staff hold you out against michigan" or 15mins of halftime isn't going to make a difference in a 'serious' head injury.

As another poster mentioned this wasn't a hamstring tweak or a stinger. Grant Irons played for 2 weeks on a broken leg that had been misdiagnosed. This wasn't Coley O'Brien wolfing down candy bars to counteract a diabetic sugar imbalance in the Game of The Century. It wasn't Joe Montana wolfing down Chicken Soup to fight dehydration from the flu. It wasn't a question of "playing through the pain". Crist had a VISION problem!

What's the benefit of playing a QB with impaired vision. "Gee, which #3 should I throw to the one on the left or the one next to him?" Think about it. And realize that Coley O'Brien and Joe Montana were both under close medical scrutiny during those games. They were cleared by the medical staff. Crist was not, until later in the Michigan game.


15mins of halftime isn't going to make a difference in a 'serious' head injury.

The next play could result in permanent damage. Somebody's incredibly naive or has had his own bell rung too many times. (I'm struggling not to call him downright stupid.) Helmet designs have been changed in recent years to try to minimize head injuries, tackling rules have changed (helmet to helmet), studies have been done on head trauma, medical staff, coaches, and players all get better education on the issue. Declan Sullivan "We failed to keep him safe." Dave Duerson. Dan Wenger's career ended due to injuries. Kelly would not play him on the medical staff's recommendation.

We're not "shooting the messenger", YOU. We appreciate your posts but we are trying to make gauge the wisdom, appropriateness, extent or even credibility of a hearsay statement(s).


This is where I think the clarification comes into problem. I am not the one saying these things. I was told by a member of the team about this instance, other instances involving Hendrix.

Again, we got that part. I do anyway. But read your second sentence above, "I was told by a member of the team ..." One guy's comment doesn't speak for the other 80 something guys on the team. It's his opinion not THE TEAM's.


I was referring to Dayne disappearing in most of the Stanford game, and some of the Pitt game. i think as i said before, he just hadnt played live ball for almost 3 1/2 years. Him getting reps with the first team for most of the 2009 season after Clausen got hurt, I felt would have made him a little bit more comfortable in his personal. Of course, that was with a different offense.

Again I don't follow the "disappearing". If you mean he was inconsistent at times. I'd agree with that. I've posted about his underthrow/overthrows, about not finding the open man (and appearing not to be looking for the open man too often). But I can't buy he hasn't played in 3-1/2 years. Yes his game PT was low but it was considerably more than anybody else at the time. They were all in a new system but Crist had to learn it under live fire while the other guys have the luxury of time. Crist missed a year with his ACL but he got book time and film time then. As I noted in my earlier post in this thread. Crist doesn't have two career starts but neither does anyone else.


Hendrix will get the team to play for him by getting the defense and sp teams to play for him. This is where Clausen failed (a lot to do with coaching though), and where Crist failed at times. From what I have gathered he has that motivating quality that either clausen/crist lack, or just havent showed...the 'it' factor.

I am not calling for Hendrix to start, or Rees to start. I want Crist in there, but the original poster asked a question and I gave an answer from those who actually interact with all 4 on a daily basis! :)

This is another statement I have trouble grasping. I can see that the Offense might play better, respond better, or have better chemistry with one QB over another but the DEFENSE and SP TEAMS? Not since Paul Hornung was a 60 minute man (QB, S, PK/P/KR/PR) might the Defense or STs have responded to the same player as the Offense. Since 1964 and platoon football, each of the three squads had their own Captain/Leader on their squad.

In '88 Rocket or Ricky Watters may have responded to Tony Rice's leadership. But I don't think Tony was the leader for Stams, Zorich, Lyght, and Stonebreaker. Bolcar Captained the defense. Reggie Ho wasn't kicking for Tony Rice anymore than John Carney kicked for Steve Beuerlein or Dave Reeve kicked for Montana's "it" factor.

Clausen leadership wasn't the problem with ND'd defense under Weis.

Weis, Tenuta, Brown, Oliver, Minter, et al were the principal problem. Harrison Smith and Zibby both struggled not because Quinn or Clausen didn't lead the defense but because the coaches didn't. Plus the coaches required those two guys to play Safety AND Cornerback on the same play which was the reason they were frequently caught out of position. "Stop the Run!" "No, No Drop Back!"
 

TheTurningPoint

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Clarification post... here you go.

Talked to the member of the team that sent me this in response to some of your questions..

"It was the fact that Dayne was content with sitting on the bench when he was fine. Dayne went to the medical staff and told them to give him till halftime to get his feet back under him. Tell your people that Dayne is great teammate, but its a matter of knowing on each side of the ball that he is going to stay in the game no matter what. He was fully capable of playing the first half of that game. But, he stood on sideline while he watched players that were incapable of handling the moment. Jimmy you knew that if he wasnt on the field, he would be in a stretcher. With Dayne there are times where you know he doesnt want to be in the moment. As a defensive player you dont want to have that added pressure of "oh **** we have to stop them every drive or we arent gonna be in this game" that doesn't allow you to make plays when your having those thoughts. Whether its Crist or Rees, ND is in good hands now. But, Hendrix will be a baller. The kid has every quality you want in a QB. He just needs to see the field."


I think getting the whole team to follow a QB is important. You have all these examples BGIF, but you cant tell me Tim Tebow didnt have an effect on his teammates on all sides of the ball.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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Clarification post... here you go...

.

What is your affiliation with the University?

Clarify.

A defensive player likes to be on the field. Another chance to smash someone.

"As a defensive player you dont want to have that added pressure of "oh **** we have to stop them every drive or we arent gonna be in this game" that doesn't allow you to make plays when your having those thoughts."

Sorry, but this is possibly the dumbest thought I have ever heard. Whoever your source is, needs to grow a pair. And I am honored that you told your people this information.
 
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Old Man Mike

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Extremely interesting almost fixating quote. It does not mean, of course, that it reflects the view of the whole team or even a majority, but it is not what any of us want to hear. Probably that is why we strain to make its contents not true. To us it is still hearsay, so we can choose NOT to believe it and keep our fingers crossed. I think that I will decide to believe that "that was last year", put the idea in the gray basket, and go forward thinking that Dayne, one year older and wiser, will so sparkle and grunt that everyone will roar onto the field, O or D, behind him.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Extremely interesting almost fixating quote. It does not mean, of course, that it reflects the view of the whole team or even a majority, but it is not what any of us want to hear. Probably that is why we strain to make its contents not true. To us it is still hearsay, so we can choose NOT to believe it and keep our fingers crossed. I think that I will decide to believe that "that was last year", put the idea in the gray basket, and go forward thinking that Dayne, one year older and wiser, will so sparkle and grunt that everyone will roar onto the field, O or D, behind him.

There's good and bad in there. For those of us who think that Dayne is our only real chance at making a BCS game in 2011, it's definitely bad news.

But it's also heartening to hear some members of the team are very high on Hendrix. If Dayne stumbles, perhaps he'll be ready to pick up the torch.
 
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TheTurningPoint

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It will be interesting to see who is the QB come the sc game though.

My thought is if Brian Kelly can win with Tony Pike and Zach Collaros...he can win with Crist/Rees/Hendrix/Golson. We will be fine!!

The question is how far has the Oline come since Dec 31.
 

BleedBlue&Gold

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It will be interesting to see who is the QB come the sc game though.

My thought is if Brian Kelly can win with Tony Pike and Zach Collaros...he can win with Crist/Rees/Hendrix/Golson. We will be fine!!

The question is how far has the Oline come since Dec 31.




I'm 1000% with you.
 

Old Man Mike

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The line isn't a problem.

The O-Line is the Iron Mailed Fist of the team. It will be the solidity of the entire offense. Zach Martin and Taylor Dever and Chris Watt and Trevor Robinson will smash the opponents, shredding them with spiked nails. Braxton will be the all-powerful Middle Finger. Get in our way at your peril!!! It will be a lot safer for you on the bench or in the shower.

Hear the Thunder.
 

BleedBlue&Gold

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The line isn't a problem.

The O-Line is the Iron Mailed Fist of the team. It will be the solidity of the entire offense. Zach Martin and Taylor Dever and Chris Watt and Trevor Robinson will smash the opponents, shredding them with spiked nails. Braxton will be the all-powerful Middle Finger. Get in our way at your peril!!! It will be a lot safer for you on the bench or in the shower.

Hear the Thunder.


When i say O-line, I'm talking rushing yards. Dayne or Tommy need a running game.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The O-Line is the Iron Mailed Fist of the team. It will be the solidity of the entire offense. Zach Martin and Taylor Dever and Chris Watt and Trevor Robinson will smash the opponents, shredding them with spiked nails. Braxton will be the all-powerful Middle Finger. Get in our way at your peril!!! It will be a lot safer for you on the bench or in the shower.

Brilliant imagery, OMM. You must unretire immediately.

What does Cave tell opposing D-lines? "F*** YOU!"
 

The Gold Helmets

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It will be interesting to see who is the QB come the sc game though.

My thought is if Brian Kelly can win with Tony Pike and Zach Collaros...he can win with Crist/Rees/Hendrix/Golson. We will be fine!!

The question is how far has the Oline come since Dec 31.

Good point man. Brian Kelly has proven he can win with different types of QB's. If the O-line is solid it won't matter as much who is under center. Not to get too off topic but I'm more anxious to see if the defense can keep playing at a high level and the depth at Running Back. Jonas needs to step up.
 

TerryTate

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IMO

1 - Crist
2 - Rees
3 - Hendrix -> will see lots of time and will mix in read option plays
4 - Golson (RS)

I think Hendrix eventually becomes the #2 this season
 
J

johnnykillz

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1 - Crist
2 - Rees
3 - Hendrix -> will see lots of time and will mix in read option plays
4 - Golson (RS)

I think Hendrix eventually becomes the #2 this season

This, by far, is the most sensable (ms?) prediction of this year's QB debate IMHO.

Tits, Terry.
 

TDHeysus

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When Dayne was standing on the sideline while Montana was in.......Dayne just stood there.

I know I shouldnt keep kicking this dead horse, and I know what im going to say will not be popular.

First, I watch football games from the perspective of an ex-player, its just how im wired.

But when Dayne was out during the Michigan game and NBC kept showing him on the sidelines, I kept saying 'WTF?" ..there was something about the way he was standing there, with his helmet strap on, he didnt look like he had to get back into the game, I didnt see any urgency. Then when Montana and Rees came in and stunk it up, they would show Dayne on the sidelines with no reaction. Maybe im old skool (not maybe, i am) but at that point if I could throw a ball, run and talk; I would have said anything and everything to the coaches to get back on the field. I think most ppl that have played sports would say the same thing in order to get back onto the field(Dayne even at 40% would have been better than Rees/Montana). From my opinion, I couldnt understand why Dayne, at least from outside appearances, seemed to be content to stay on the sidelines when the QB's were in the middle of an epic meltdown. My thought was, if he was too injured to be in the game, he should have been sitting on the bench.

As I said, I'm old skool..."as long as the bone isnt sticking out, and you can walk, your good to go." But I also recoqnize that nowadays injuries are handled drastically different. I think this is why I feel the way I do about the michigan game, I think being old skool is what shapes my opinion
 
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Rocket89

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Not to pile on Dayne, because that's not what I want to do here but...

When Rees came in I honestly thought Kelly believed Michigan's defense was so bad that he could put Rees in, get him some experience, and still move the ball and score points.

The way Crist was standing there, not appearing to be hurt, and looking somewhat sad...I thought he was pissed he was being benched for a series.
 

TDHeysus

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Not to pile on Dayne....

I hope anyone doesnt think im pile on Dayne either...I was talking about one specific incident, i'm not trying to insinuate that he is soft or any of that mess.
 

woolybug25

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I see it like this. Crist will get his second chance to lead this team to glory. You have to look at the QB situation in two pools.

Pool A) Crist is the starter. As situations arise, whether schematically or because of timing (small injury, Crist takes a big hit, etc) Hendrix will come in for a change of pace. I truly believe that we will see both quite often throughout the season. This is "the A team".

Pool B) This is the "B Team". If Crist goes down with another devastating injury, plays poorly, etc and there isnt exactly whispers of Hendrix taking Crist's job, then in steps Rees. I believe that he would do very well. Golson is our second option for "change of pace", but will only see the field if Kelly sees him as the difference between a regular bowl vs BCS or even BCS vs National Championship. Golson will be groomed to be the eventual starter.

BOOM
 
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