'23 TX S Peyton Bowen (Oklahoma Signee ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

[OhioIrish]

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I get it, it's not fun to read/think about what I said, but it is a reality. Am I being a bit facetious w/ the Ahole comment? Sure, but I figured most on here were smart enough to pick up what I was throwing down.

I’m with you. Talking a kid out of $2M without offering substantial, concrete compensation would take a master stroke of Ahole manipulation. Sorry, a degree from ND ain’t enough. Hopefully the $2M number is false.

 

[NDohio]

I really don't get this whole attitude that Freeman is somehow the bad guy for selling the entire ND experience to a recruit. Regardless of what other offers the recruit has, it is literally Freeman's job to attempt to sell the recruit on ND.

It's like you guys have never bought anything before. Every representative that sells some sort of product is going to try and sell their product. Of course the value of each product is different and the consumer needs to decide which product checks off the most boxes and gives them the most value. Freeman, Venables, and Lanning (sales people) each makes their best pitch and Bowen(consumer) decides which product he wants to purchase.

Absolutely unbelievable that some are making Freeman into something sinister for doing his job...

 

[ND03]

I really don't get this whole attitude that Freeman is somehow the bad guy for selling the entire ND experience to a recruit.

No one is actually saying this. It was a hyperbolic (with a preface that it was hyperbolic) post, about a hypothetical situation.

 

[NDohio]

I’m with you. Talking a kid out of $2M without offering substantial, concrete compensation would take a master stroke of Ahole manipulation. Sorry, a degree from ND ain’t enough. Hopefully the $2M number is false.

No one is actually saying this. It was a hyperbolic (with a preface that it was hyperbolic) post, about a hypothetical situation.

Oh...

 

[ndfanatic78]

I 1000% agree with this, problem is in reality, that bag man looks pretty good, and it would be very hard to turn down the $$$.

Not if its not guaranteed. Thats what I thought all these teams had over ND is they were giving/gauranteeing them money. If thats not what is happening ND needs to express this to the kids. I mean there is no reason to choose another school over ND if the money isn't 100% guaranteed at signing.

 

[ND03]

Oh...

Again that is a reaction to a hypothetical situation. At no point is anyone actually calling the head coach an asshole.

The original post that said it was clearly a joke in tone.

I’m gonna retire from this round. But each recruit will put a different $ value on ND vs other colleges.

As an ND message board we will have a higher average value than the average recruit, and at $2M; we are finding several who will say they’d hit that bid.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Ok. Now that this fire has been put out, we can worry about other things

 

[OhioIrish]

I really don't get this whole attitude that Freeman is somehow the bad guy for selling the entire ND experience to a recruit. Regardless of what other offers the recruit has, it is literally Freeman's job to attempt to sell the recruit on ND.

It's like you guys have never bought anything before. Every representative that sells some sort of product is going to try and sell their product. Of course the value of each product is different and the consumer needs to decide which product checks off the most boxes and gives them the most value. Freeman, Venables, and Lanning (sales people) each makes their best pitch and Bowen(consumer) decides which product he wants to purchase.

Absolutely unbelievable that some are making Freeman into something sinister for doing his job...

There are definitely scenarios in sales when the only way to win the sale is to harm the client, this would be one — assuming no substantial, concrete compensation is offered. If Freeman wins this recruitment it will be because the compensation offered is comparable, it won’t be because he convinces PB that the magic of ND, and 4 for 40, is compensation enough.

 

[Dale]

When asked why Thune already did the CB for Eli Bowen, Drumm said Thune didn’t know about the Oregon stuff lol.

Guy is just a paid troll/cheerleader while Drumm is actually trying to do the work

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Player development is so much on the player himself and junior coaches who inherently not likely to be at a school by a kids sophomore year.

I went to ND, but don’t have rose colored glasses about the marginal value of Notre Dame vs other major colleges. So much of life is about your own effort and luck. The math problems aren’t different in Eugene. The network is the best argument, but other networks are good too, just perhaps more regional.

"Why go to Harvard? You can get a world class education for free in your local public library. It all comes down to personal effort anyway."

Notre Dame makes compelling cases to recruits, but I just don’t think the differences between schools is that stark.

It is stark in most cases. A few years ago I compiled a spreadsheet of 30y ROI degree value for every school in the FBS based off of Payscale salary data and the NCAA's GSR. For a football player, the expected value of an ND degree was often 2-3 x what a school like Oklahoma is offering because they're so bad at graduating their players. Very few players, even those who come out of high school as 5-star recruits, become independently wealthy in the NFL. The insurance policy of the degree matters, and for kids looking for both an education and elite development, the insurance we're offering is second to none.

Would Steve Elmer (for e.g.) really not have gotten a decent job out of school if he’d gone to Iowa?

That depends on what you define as a "decent job". But I can virtually guarantee he wouldn't be where he is today without Notre Dame.

 

[Free Manera]

When asked why Thune already did the CB for Eli Bowen, Drumm said Thune didn’t know about the Oregon stuff lol.

Guy is just a paid troll/cheerleader while Drumm is actually trying to do the work

Some of the OU posters are worried about Jackson Arnold to Oregon too now, since Dante Moore is probably gone. The schadenfreude would be incredible.....

 

[benneboy]

When asked why Thune already did the CB for Eli Bowen, Drumm said Thune didn’t know about the Oregon stuff lol.

Guy is just a paid troll/cheerleader while Drumm is actually trying to do the work

I'm not sure that dude will be able to recover from the storm headed his way if Bowen somehow ends up at ND.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I am sure Freeman has his NIL presentation down to a science at this point. To counter any potential P4P arguments, just throw out a picture of Denver Harris and tell Bowen he doesn't want him to end up like Harris. I can't think of a stronger selling point than to tell a recruit that he can expect to make "x" amount of NIL $$, receive crucial development as both a player and a student, top notch counseling on finances, the potential to become an NFL player, maximum exposure on national tv, and a 40 year guarantee if everything else goes sideways. If that's not enough to convince Bowen, then he's probably not a recruit that the Irish needs... or wants in the end.

 

[Huntr]

 

[Whiskeyjack]

@Whiskeyjack …do you really think that elite players put a heavy consideration on the education component?

They should. The odds of becoming independently wealthy through NFL contracts are pretty bad, even for 5-star recruits. The degree is their insurance policy, and ND's 30Y ROI for football players is way better than most of the teams we recruit against.

Who has OLeary developed? He was our safeties coach the last two years.

Hamilton was a physical freak who walked in and dominated from the first day of practice. He's a first rounder at any other P5.

Watts is the best example right now, but even at this point we're still not sure if he can truly hold his own as a full time starter.

Griffith/brown both below average.

Henderson seemed to make a number of mental errors this year.

And finally, in comes Brandon Joseph, who plans on being one and done at ND, and he was completely average. If you're Bowen you probably care more about a Brandon Joseph than a Kyle Hamilton.

Are we clearly superior to OU at safety just bc Harrison Smith, Kyle Hamilton, and alohi gilman? Three guys the current staff had either zero or marginal impacts on?

If development can only be claimed for schools where the coaches haven't changed, then that makes OU and Oregon look even worse in comparison to us. Regardless of how you cut it, as long as our opponents are being held to the same standard, we develop Bowen's position better than they do.

 

[ND03]

"Why go to Harvard? You can get a world class education for free in your local public library. It all comes down to personal effort anyway."

It is stark in most cases. A few years ago I compiled a spreadsheet of 30y ROI degree value for every school in the FBS based off of Payscale salary data and the NCAA's GSR. For a football player, the expected value of an ND degree was often 2-3 x what a school like Oklahoma is offering because they're so bad at graduating their players. Very few players, even those who come out of high school as 5-star recruits, become independently wealthy in the NFL. The insurance policy of the degree matters, and for kids looking for both an education and elite development, the insurance we're offering is second to none.

That depends on what you define as a "decent job". But I can virtually guarantee he wouldn't be where he is today without Notre Dame.

This was an impressive vanquishing of a straw man army.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

committed recruits trying to recruit on twitter is always a sign of desperation IMO

I would suspect that as these kids build relationships with each other that that talk about winning championships and a lot of stuff other than money. I see these types of posts more as a “lets finish what we started” type of attitude moreso than desperation when it becomes obvious their brother is being pulled in a lot of different directions with a lot of distractions to the mission. Player to player relationships generally trump what a coach can bring to the table in most cases.

 

[Bluto]

Ok. Now that this fire has been put out, we can worry about other things

The Sea Turtle kiss of death. Haha.

 

[Irish du Nord]

This was an impressive vanquishing of a straw man army.

Pretty weird to nickname yourself this imo.

You do you though man

 

[ND03]

Pretty weird to nickname yourself this imo.

You do you though man

Opened myself up for that one. Ha.

I get the passion, but I’m not comparing Notre Dame to Harvard or a flagship state school to the local library.

A spreadsheet replete with omitted variable bias just isn’t a reliable benchmark. We will never have enough input on the critical variables to make those value in a spreadsheet. How many OU players could get an offer from ND? It’s a huge signal of future academic and economic success just to get the offer…

I’ll suppose that Whiskey could actually be Steve Elmer, so He may be right, but I think that’s insulting to both Iowa and Elmer.

 

[M40]

They should. The odds of becoming independently wealthy through NFL contracts are pretty bad, even for 5-star recruits. The degree is their insurance policy, and ND's 30Y ROI for football players is way better than most of the teams we recruit against.

If development can only be claimed for schools where the coaches haven't changed, then that makes OU and Oregon look even worse in comparison to us. Regardless of how you cut it, as long as our opponents are being held to the same standard, we develop Bowen's position better than they do.

“They should” but they don’t and that’s the reality.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Opened myself up for that one. Ha.

I get the passion, but I’m not comparing Notre Dame to Harvard or a flagship state school to the local library.

A spreadsheet replete with omitted variable bias just isn’t a reliable benchmark. We will never have enough input on the critical variables to make those value in a spreadsheet. How many OU players could get an offer from ND? It’s a huge signal of future academic and economic success just to get the offer…

I’ll suppose that Whiskey could actually be Steve Elmer, so He may be right, but I think that’s insulting to both Iowa and Elmer.

But in this case Bowen apparently can get in to either school. There are probably few instances where a degree from OU outweighs a degree from Notre Dame.

Whiskey is inherently much smarter than most of us out here. Nothing against Elmer but I am taking Whiskey in a bar fight and a debate every time.

 

[INLaw]

whiskey always helps me in a bar fight especially copious amounts of wells whiskey mixed with Big K diet cola

 

[anarin]

But in this case Bowen apparently can get in to either school. There are probably few instances where a degree from OU outweighs a degree from Notre Dame.

Whiskey is inherently much smarter than most of us out here. Nothing against Elmer but I am taking Whiskey in a bar fight and a debate every time.

But has Whiskey been to the YMCA?

 

[StPaul_Irish]

Your comment equated to "Freeman is a bad guy if he tries to convince a kid to stick when there's big money on the table." That's not playing devil's advocate like you're claiming, it's a completely defeatist position that effectively would kill the program.

If that is how you want to interpret it, sure. Of course MF should highlight the benny's of ND, but how can ANYONE look someone in the eye and tell them not to take life changing money. Any ND grad will tell you, a ND education will open some doors and has a great network, but it's not what we all think/want it to be. Of course I think kids should go to ND and most of the benefits outweigh the negatives... but we need to put our fandom aside and be realistic. IT SUCK, and I wish it weren't this way and I won't go down w/o a fight, but lets be real here. Are you telling me, you would turn down big money (even the opportunity) just to go to ND?

 

[IrishLax]

It is always people who didn't go to Notre Dame that are like "the education is the same everywhere!" It's literally not. And you're not just paying for a "network."

 

[dad4aa]

The problem with your thinking, is you keep assuming he won’t make money at Notre Dame. He may not make upfront money, but has the opportunity to make a ton of money at Notre Dame in addition to getting an ND degree just like Hamilton and that makes the ND option better.

Responding to StPaul_Irish

 

[IrishLax]

If that is how you want to interpret it, sure. Of course MF should highlight the benny's of ND, but how can ANYONE look someone in the eye and tell them not to take life changing money. Any ND grad will tell you, a ND education will open some doors and has a great network, but it's not what we all think/want it to be. Of course I think kids should go to ND and most of the benefits outweigh the negatives... but we need to put our fandom aside and be realistic. IT SUCK, and I wish it weren't this way and I won't go down w/o a fight, but lets be real here. Are you telling me, you would turn down big money (even the opportunity) just to go to ND?

I would think that the better argument for Freeman would be to communicate long term and short term value. If ND is coming to the plate with nothing, then they can fuck off. But when top players at Notre Dame are getting high six figures it's not a disingenuous argument to be like "you will make a lot more than $2mil over your career at ND + will have all of these other opportunities and a better education." The main issue that ND is having is that kids want guarantees and cash payments up front... especially since a LOT of schools are coming up empty on "promises" they made last year. For example, Addison at USC allegedly had issues actually getting the money he was promised and he eventually got some but not the full amount he handshook on.

 

[Huntr]

The main issue that ND is having is that kids want guarantees and cash payments up front

I think this is the point that some have been trying to make (poorly) upthread.

ND isn't selling what (highly rated) kids are trying to buy.

 

[Free Manera]

I'm really not concerned that much with NIL on the high school recruit level. It's going to chill out at some point. Yeah this shit will keep happening for top 10 dudes, but if Freeman can land perennial top 5-7 classes, ND is in position to make some runs.... IF they can use the portal to their advantage.

To me, that is the real battle for ND. And it is a winnable one. Because some schools are using NIL to poach players from other schools, and that shouldn't be a problem for ND because current players KNOW WHAT THEY CAN GET FROM FUND. They don't need to be sold on it.

If ND can land top 5-7 type classes, and retain the best players on the roster, then all that is left is to be able to fill 5-10 roster spots with upgrades from the portal. That is how ND can make some real runs in January. The portal is ND's meal ticket (or its albatross) depending on how it is used.