2016 Spring Practice Thread

[IrishLion]

Honest question. How come it's not a sign of Stanford's defensive woes that they let us cram it down their throats over and over and over again when it counted most in the fourth quarter? And they gave up the same amount of points basically.

Is the thought that we should have been MUCH better, but the scheme was bad? While they played sound defense, but just weren't as good?

Because people want to believe that there is a single deficiency that, once corrected, will propel this program to 2 or 3 decades of dominance. People see other programs have new coaches come in and push them over the hump in a year or two; like Meyer did in Gainesville and Columbus.

To be fair, a lot of us were discussing in the weeks leading up to that game that Stanford's defense just wasn't the normal Stanford defense.

And I think it was a sign of their defensive woes that we crammed it down their throats over and over. But we don't care about their issues. We care about ND's issues.

No, there isn't a single deficiency that will propel ND into being elite defensively. The main thing is to stay healthy. After that, the mental breakdowns need to stop on the back end. After that, the aggressive style needs to actually create turnovers. But none of that means we should ignore the short-comings of the defense.

Just like every coach's tenure, the third year is where you can make your judgement. The system is in place, the recruiting has been done. Now let's see results. If the defense struggles for a third straight year, injuries or no, wouldn't it be safe to say that a change is needed at DC?

 

[kmoose]

If the defense struggles for a third straight year, injuries or no, wouldn't it be safe to say that a change is needed at DC?

No, it wouldn't be safe to that a change is needed at DC, just based on struggles. You have to evaluate WHY they struggled, and then determine if it is reasonable that the DC could have corrected/avoided that.

It's like trying to say "Well, if we don't win X number of games, then he should be gone." Well, what if some deranged USC fan (I know, "deranged USC fan" is redundant) blows up a team bus with all of the first two deep of the Defense on it?"

I know that's an extreme example, and practically inconceivable. But it's meant to illustrate the point that you have to evaluate the "whys". The problem comes when the "whys" are more subtle, and people are too emotionally invested in the fortunes of the team. What happens then is that they tend to ignore valid "whys" and react on pure emotion. Usually one specific coach or player is the target of that emotion.

 

[IrishLion]

No, it wouldn't be safe to that a change is needed at DC, just based on struggles. You have to evaluate WHY they struggled, and then determine if it is reasonable that the DC could have corrected/avoided that.

It's like trying to say "Well, if we don't win X number of games, then he should be gone." Well, what if some deranged USC fan (I know, "deranged USC fan" is redundant) blows up a team bus with all of the first two deep of the Defense on it?"

I know that's an extreme example, and practically inconceivable. But it's meant to illustrate the point that you have to evaluate the "whys". The problem comes when the "whys" are more subtle, and people are too emotionally invested in the fortunes of the team. What happens then is that they tend to ignore valid "whys" and react on pure emotion. Usually one specific coach or player is the target of that emotion.

Absolutely the "why's" are important. Last year, the defense struggled because of injuries, lack of depth, and mental errors. The biggest thing, injuries, is out of BVG's control, and compounds or leads to the other issues. I get that. So I'm not judging him on last year.

But if we see a rash of injuries again this year? That's an indictment of the strength of conditioning department (or a sign of a voodoo curse), first of all... but it also won't be a valid excuse this time around. My biggest issue with BVG last year was that he didn't adjust to his personnel. He just forged ahead with the aggressive, zone-blitz scheme that didn't pay off, even with the injuries and short-coming of the unit. He needs to show that he can adjust his defense when things aren't going well, and this is the year to do that. He's had three years to recruit his defense and improve his depth, and he's had two seasons of underwhelming showings to analyze and make changes. It's time to put up or get out.

 

[rocket66]

BVG definitely has a lot riding on this year. Me thinks the frustration is a combination of getting players adapted to his system + a lack of stellar recruiting from him. 2016 is a big year for him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kmoose]

But if we see a rash of injuries again this year? That's an indictment of the strength of conditioning department (or a sign of a voodoo curse), first of all... but it also won't be a valid excuse this time around.

So you are going to blame the Defensive Coordinator, if the Strength and Conditioning staff fails?

My biggest issue with BVG last year was that he didn't adjust to his personnel. He just forged ahead with the aggressive, zone-blitz scheme that didn't pay off, even with the injuries and short-coming of the unit. He needs to show that he can adjust his defense when things aren't going well, and this is the year to do that.

So you aren't judging him by last year, but last year is certainly already clouding your judgement of him.

Here's the problem with the armchair QBing in college football: These kids aren't professionals. And they don't get unlimited time to work with coaches during the season. And, at ND, they don't get unlimited time to spend on football, period, with or without coaches, during the school year. So there's no reason to expect that each one of them can execute multiple different schemes well enough to win against their schedule. Who's to say that switching to a different scheme would have worked any better? Maybe he did try to do that in practice, and it was obvious that it was not going to work? We don't know enough to say that the defensive scheme that ND employed wasn't their best chance to win. It's not like they can go out and pick up a Free Agent who maybe can plug a hole in another scheme that they would like to run.

 

[IrishLion]

So you are going to blame the Defensive Coordinator, if the Strength and Conditioning staff fails?

No, I'm going to blame the DC if he fails to adjust to his personnel issues, and if the depth isn't in a place to overcome an injury or two. And I'm not even saying that there needs to be "no dropoff." I don't expect an elite defense. I just don't think that the defense should be completely crippled by injuries at this point. Last year? Sure. He's still trying to get his guys in place, and the guys are still learning the system. Injuries are tough to overcome when guys are still learning and when your future players are all new or wearing redshirts. But year three should see enough depth improvement that injuries shouldn't automatically kill them, and enough mental improvement that breakdowns aren't happening consistently.

So you aren't judging him by last year, but last year is certainly already clouding your judgement of him.

Yeah, of course. Last year was a perfect storm, and there wasn't *much* that he could do. But even the few things that could have been done, weren't.

Here's the problem with the armchair QBing in college football: These kids aren't professionals. And they don't get unlimited time to work with coaches during the season. And, at ND, they don't get unlimited time to spend on football, period, with or without coaches, during the school year. So there's no reason to expect that each one of them can execute multiple different schemes well enough to win against their schedule. Who's to say that switching to a different scheme would have worked any better? Maybe he did try to do that in practice, and it was obvious that it was not going to work? We don't know enough to say that the defensive scheme that ND employed wasn't their best chance to win. It's not like they can go out and pick up a Free Agent who maybe can plug a hole in another scheme that they would like to run.

I agree with you on all of this, minus the bolded. "Simplifying scheme" =/= "learning multiple different schemes."

And I would even take my issues a step more generic. He didn't even need to "simplify" the scheme in a broad sense. Simply altering play-calling a bit might have helped. But we didn't see any changes, of any sort. And that's an issue that worries me heading into this season... he adjusted almost nothing, even after the crippling injuries and breakdowns. If we see a rash of injuries again this year (which is the worst-case scenario), he at least needs to show some better backup plans in terms of playcalling at the very least.

 

[rocket66]

So you are going to blame the Defensive Coordinator, if the Strength and Conditioning staff fails?









So you aren't judging him by last year, but last year is certainly already clouding your judgement of him.



Here's the problem with the armchair QBing in college football: These kids aren't professionals. And they don't get unlimited time to work with coaches during the season. And, at ND, they don't get unlimited time to spend on football, period, with or without coaches, during the school year. So there's no reason to expect that each one of them can execute multiple different schemes well enough to win against their schedule. Who's to say that switching to a different scheme would have worked any better? Maybe he did try to do that in practice, and it was obvious that it was not going to work? We don't know enough to say that the defensive scheme that ND employed wasn't their best chance to win. It's not like they can go out and pick up a Free Agent who maybe can plug a hole in another scheme that they would like to run.

You seem to constantly be defending all things BVG until you're blue in the face. Do you think he recruits at an appropriate level for his position at a school like ND?

 

[woolybug25]

You seem to constantly be defending all things BVG until you're blue in the face. Do you think he recruits at an appropriate level for his position at a school like ND?

If 247 is correct, I would say he has done a lot better than people are giving him credit for.

Brian VanGorder All Time Recruits

 

[gkIrish]

If 247 is correct, I would say he has done a lot better than people are giving him credit for.

Brian VanGorder All Time Recruits

Only one guy on that list (Cage) has performed at a high level so far. The rest are essentially unknowns.

If you want to go by stars, there are only five 4 stars on that list. Not sure that's all that great compared to our peers.

 

[kmoose]

You seem to constantly be defending all things BVG until you're blue in the face. Do you think he recruits at an appropriate level for his position at a school like ND?

I'm not defending BVG, so much as I am defending rational thought vs. emotional overreaction. If they are terrible this year, and it doesn't look like they will get any better, then I say you(you, meaning ND, not a bunch of fans on a message board) have to, at least, start talking about who might replace him. But the "whys" matter.

I don't know what specific recruiting responsibilities he has. In other words........ is he just responsible for identifying the guys they want to go after, or is he supposed to be an in-home closer? I would suspect the truth lies somewhere between the two. I don't really pay that close attention to recruiting. Whether we are getting all of the top guys, or just a couple of top guys and a bunch of really good guys, I think we should be competitive. If you're competitive, who knows what events might transpire to get you where you want to be?

 

[IrishLion]

I'm not defending BVG, so much as I am defending rational thought vs. emotional overreaction. If they are terrible this year, and it doesn't look like they will get any better, then I say you(you, meaning ND, not a bunch of fans on a message board) have to, at least, start talking about who might replace him. But the "whys" matter.

Let's say the defense experiences an injury among the top 3 CB's, the top 3 safeties, and the top 3 defensive lineman. They lose a starter/2-deep contributor at 2 of 3 levels on the defense.

Production will undoubtedly drop off. But if they tank like they did last year, with similar circumstances, what would your opinion be?

(I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious.) My opinion would be that those similar circumstances shouldn't have led to a similar drop off considering it's the third year in the system, and I'd be open to a change, perhaps even clamoring loudly for one. What about you?

 

[IrishLax]

So let's say Nyles Morgan is AWESOME this year... does that reflect well on BVG? Or poorly on him for not playing him at all last year?

 

[IrishLion]

So let's say Nyles Morgan is AWESOME this year... does that reflect well on BVG? Or poorly on him for not playing him at all last year?

I think it's a wash. He probably should've gotten some reps last year in early-game situations, but we also can't say that he would've performed at the same "Awesome" level.

Whereas the defense again struggling to deal with injuries would be a big red flag to me, and signal what is probably time for a change.

 

[kmoose]

Let's say the defense experiences an injury among the top 3 CB's, the top 3 safeties, and the top 3 defensive lineman. They lose a starter/2-deep contributor at 2 of 3 levels on the defense.

Production will undoubtedly drop off. But if they tank like they did last year, with similar circumstances, what would your opinion be?

(I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious.) My opinion would be that those similar circumstances shouldn't have led to a similar drop off considering it's the third year in the system, and I'd be open to a change, perhaps even clamoring loudly for one. What about you?

They were in the top 40 in scoring defense, and in the top 50 in total defense. This is the type of rhetoric I am talking about; that's hardly "tanking". It's not outstanding, but you have to take into account that it was against a schedule that included 5 of the final Top 25 CFP Poll teams.

I would have to evaluate how they played, so I can't say right now.

 

[IrishLion]

They were in the top 40 in scoring defense, and in the top 50 in total defense. This is the type of rhetoric I am talking about; that's hardly "tanking". It's not outstanding, but you have to take into account that it was against a schedule that included 5 of the final Top 25 CFP Poll teams.

I would have to evaluate how they played, so I can't say right now.

We just have different views on "tanking," and that's cool. The statistics are nice, but even with injuries, I don't think the defense should be giving up 60 yards in three plays in under a minute to Stanford. Matthias Farley should not be asked to run down the seam with the opposition's best receiver at the end of the game. He should be sitting deep center field if he's on the field at all in a situation like that. It's an isolated example, but it's indicative of the DC's shortcomings that are so worrisome to me, and an example of the type of situation that would not be acceptable to me next year.

 

[GoIrish41]

So let's say Nyles Morgan is AWESOME this year... does that reflect well on BVG? Or poorly on him for not playing him at all last year?

No and yes

 

[Wild Bill]

So let's say Nyles Morgan is AWESOME this year... does that reflect well on BVG? Or poorly on him for not playing him at all last year?

Poorly.

Poorly for not recognizing his ability to upgrade a position that needed upgrading.

A coordinator can assist in the development of players but the position coaches and strength coaches play a much bigger role in development, IMO.

 

[IRISHMAN]

Spring has me excited about all of our receivers. Nice to see stepherson and holmes stepping up.

me too. with so much wr talent the problem becomes who do you sit on the bench.

 

[greyhammer90]

So let's say Nyles Morgan is AWESOME this year... does that reflect well on BVG? Or poorly on him for not playing him at all last year?

This question perfectly explains why this board can be a headache at times when it comes to discussions of coaching.

Nyles Morgan plays badly = BVG has failed at developing his players and is terrible, no credit for understanding that Joe Schmidt is the better player the prior year.

Nyles Morgan plays awesome = BVG should have benched Schmidt last year and is terrible, no credit for developing his players.

Classic catch 22.

 

[BeatSC]

Poorly.

Poorly for not recognizing his ability to upgrade a position that needed upgrading.

A coordinator can assist in the development of players but the position coaches and strength coaches play a much bigger role in development, IMO.

Agree, shouldn't take a lot to outplay out produce what Joe S did last year and I would give little to no credit to BVG for that nor would I blame him that much if Morgan doesn't get it either. Either Morgan is a baller and shows it this year or not.

One thing I think most of us will agree on is that if the D has little injuries (hope) and still doesn't improve from last year with what is considered to be a softer schedule than BVG should be looking at his termination clause of his contract. too much talent to not do better.

Comments regarding the logjam at WR is to shift someone to defense like we did with KR and others before him. Brent to Safety?

 

[GoIrish41]

Agree, shouldn't take a lot to outplay out produce what Joe S did last year and I would give little to no credit to BVG for that nor would I blame him that much if Morgan doesn't get it either. Either Morgan is a baller and shows it this year or not.

One thing I think most of us will agree on is that if the D has little injuries (hope) and still doesn't improve from last year with what is considered to be a softer schedule than BVG should be looking at his termination clause of his contract. too much talent to not do better.

Comments regarding the logjam at WR is to shift someone to defense like we did with KR and others before him. Brent to Safety?

Man, I don't think it would be right to move Brent again. He got moved last year from WR to RB and had to take a year to learn the new position. Putting him on the other side of the ball would probably require the same type of learning period. He'd run out of time before he ever got on the field.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Brent is so good he's being considered for several positions, yet he can't seem to see the field at any......

 

[ulukinatme]

Brent is so good he's being considered for several positions, yet he can't seem to see the field at any......

Jack of all trades, master of none? Could evolve to be the next Mathias Farley.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

2016 Spring Practice Thread

Brent is so good he's being considered for several positions, yet he can't seem to see the field at any......

I think Brent needs to play RB and slot and just find ways to get the ball in his hands. He is such a tremendous athlete.

 

[Irish YJ]

Man, I don't think it would be right to move Brent again. He got moved last year from WR to RB and had to take a year to learn the new position. Putting him on the other side of the ball would probably require the same type of learning period. He'd run out of South Bend before he ever got on the field.

FIFY

 

[GoIrish41]

FIFY

That, too.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Can we please avoid the devastating injuries for one year?

I would consult my magic 8-ball, however, it's currently out for the offseason with a torn ACL.

 

[Crazy Balki]

I think if Morgan thrives, it reflects well on BVG. Some guys don't emerge immediately. That's just reality. I highly doubt if Morgan performs well in practice and it reflects when the lights come on, that BVG was incompetent in evaluating him last season. It's very likely that he wasn't at that point last spring, which is why he wasn't playing.

Morgan has an opportunity to succeed, and it seems like the light is coming on for him. It takes time for some players to emerge.

 

[military_irish]

I would consult my magic 8-ball, however, it's currently out for the offseason with a torn ACL.

I blame Longo for that injury.

 

[dublinirish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Notre Dame OT signee Tommy Kraemer attended Irish practice today.</p>— Mike Vorel (@mikevorel) <a href="https://twitter.com/mikevorel/status/715877174755139584">April 1, 2016</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Notre Dame DB coach Todd Lyght very vocal with his DBs today, imploring them to be more physical.</p>— Mike Vorel (@mikevorel) <a href="https://twitter.com/mikevorel/status/715877688410505216">April 1, 2016</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a> WR Corey Robinson (concussion) remained out today. Miles Boykin (hand) returned.</p>— Nick Ironside (@nironside247) <a href="https://twitter.com/nironside247/status/715877693754052608">April 1, 2016</a></blockquote>
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