2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


  • Total voters
    183

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
One thing no one seems to be discussing is the turnout at Hillary and Trump events. Trump had another 15 thousand people at his Florida event yesterday and Clinton is speaking at high schools that have been less than half full. Some as low as 1/3 capacity. The reason I bring that up is come election day the voters will need a reason to take the time to go vote. As many of you anti-Trumpster's have stated, Trump supporters are "rabid" (lame term by the way). He may not have to work hard to get them out on election day whereas the Clinton Machine will have to rent a lot of buses to pick up their supporters to get them to the ballot box. I know they will have a lot of ground support, but will it be enough.
Yes, pro-Trump people are very pro-Trump. But anti-Trump people are also very anti-Trump. That sentiment won't show up at Clinton's rallies but it'll still motivate people to the polls.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,955
Reaction score
11,239
Tangent: Nielsen spends a ton of money curating their sample to be an accurate reflection of the population and the networks compensate them accordingly. That's how advertising is priced and sold, so the entire industry has a vested interest in accurate numbers. The way it's actually measured is a physical box that's placed in a home. Participants receive a small stipend.

Fun fact: "Overnight" ratings are based on certain major metropolitan markets but final ratings are always adjusted to reflect the country as a whole. Sometimes there can be significant swings for content that's more heavily consumed by urban versus rural viewers (think NBA versus NASCAR).

I get all that,... I'm just saying I've never met one person that has ever played a part in that data set, nor have I ever found anyone who knew someone etc... and living where I do, with the jobs I have had, you'd think I'd have met hundreds... I don't buy the TV ratings being as accurate as we are told, one reason you touched on above, another reason I touched on above... among other things.
 
Last edited:

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
Yes, pro-Trump people are very pro-Trump. But anti-Trump people are also very anti-Trump. That sentiment won't show up at Clinton's rallies but it'll still motivate people to the polls.

Plus, who needs get out the vote drives when the dead and the fictional characters vote for you

#sarcasmnotsarcasm
 

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
I get all that,... I'm just saying I've never met one person that has ever played a part in that data set, and living where I do, with the jobs I have had, you'd think I'd have met hundreds... I don't buy the TV ratings being as accurate as we are told, one reason you touched on above, another reason I touched on above... among other things.

This is why Firefly got cancelled isn't it?
 

EddytoNow

Vbuck Redistributor
Messages
1,481
Reaction score
235
Wow, the number and magnitude of logical fallacies in this small paragraph alone are astonishing. Ralph Nader caused ISIS? For real?

I never said that Ralph Nader caused ISIS. I said his candidacy had a direct impact on who won the 2000 election. As a result of Nader's candidacy, George Bush won Florida and the election. We got Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and a bunch of lies leading to the Iraq War. Obama has spent eight years trying to clean up the mess. All facts.

Starting the Iraq War without a viable exit plan left us entrenched there. The American public wanted us out. The newly "installed" Iraqi government wanted us out. Obama had two choices. Continue an unpopular war indefinitely or get out. We left. Saddam Hussein was no longer in power to suppress the violence and ISIS filled the void.

I concluded that I would not allow my vote to be wasted on Johnson/Weld if it meant that Trump would become president. Trump's fiery rhetoric would have us in multiple international conflicts with no end game. That looks too similar to what Bush and the Neo-Cons were doing. If you don't see the parallels, we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
The Week's Michael Brendan Dougherty just published an article titled "The anti-establishment case for Hillary Clinton":

The 2016 presidential election is almost a pure choice between the establishment and an anti-establishment candidate.

Hillary Clinton is the establishment. She's the candidate of think-tankers, wonks, and the established style of governance that has dominated the Western world since the end of the Cold War. She represents the standard managed capitalist vision at home. She's for big free-trade deals. And she is hawkish on defense issues in the Washington way, embracing the use of air power and proxies abroad to "shape" outcomes in America's favor. She sides with liberals in the culture war, but in a way that seems cautious and calculating. She is pious about gay rights now, but she was not pioneering then. She is politically correct, but not politically courageous. She says all the right things, once the left has made it compulsory for her to do so. The press is openly rooting for her in a way that is unprecedented in modern American politics.

That's because Donald Trump is the candidate running against almost all of the above. He pits himself against "globalism" — which is the populist word for what the establishment calls "internationalism." He opposes trade deals. He seriously questions the ever-freer movement of capital, goods, and people. He criticizes (sometimes hypocritically) America's post-Cold War foreign policy. He questions the utility of the NATO alliance. Hardly any think-tankers or policy experts work with his campaign. And Trump doesn't just question whether mass immigration is good for America. He questions whether the immigrants are really up to snuff as humans. For him, Mexicans are rapists and Middle Eastern refugees are terrorists in waiting. For his supporters, Trump's crudity is part of his broader assault on "political correctness," one that will pull down all the establishment's taboos and allow Americans to finally say what they really think again.

So it would seem to be straightforward. If you want to blow up the status quo and the system, vote for Trump. If you think the existing order and the existing direction of that order is worth defending, vote for Clinton.

But it's not that simple.

The intensity of populist attachment to Trump's candidacy is aided by his wealth, celebrity, and ability to dominate a news cycle. He seems to be the one populist who has a real shot to loosen the establishment's grip on both parties and cut a path to the White House. Many populists think Trump is their one shot.

But the better shot for the anti-establishment crowd may come if Hillary Clinton wins and torches whatever last shreds of credibility the establishment has left.

The post-Cold War political establishment is officially loyal to Clinton and hostile to Trump. But at the same time, the establishment must confront its own vices in Clinton: its fundamental clubbiness, its self-seeking, its overwhelming priority to "do well" while doing good, its habit of doing what is technically legal but obviously unethical. And at the same time, the establishment sees its virtues when it opposes Trump: its respect for facts, its liberality and graciousness. In other words, the establishment seems to be demoralized by having Clinton represent it. Correspondingly, it is re-moralized when it gets to oppose Trump. And its behavior in this election — siding overwhelmingly with Clinton in an election that is a referendum on the establishment itself — means that they will own the outcomes of her presidency.

Clinton seems positioned to fail spectacularly if elected. She does not have the ability to charm and quiet the press or the public the way Obama or Bill Clinton did. Her one political trick is trying to outwork her problems, and to show the public she is putting in lots of effort. But America may soon face another recession. Obama bequeaths to her America's involvement in four civil wars across the Middle East. America's involvement in Syria, Iraq, Libya, and Yemen has no actual support from the American public beyond its indifference. Another bomb or riot that turns into American casualties, and already her presidency is put on the defensive.

Clinton is experienced at failing. She failed to get health-care reform in the 1990s. She failed to win the Democratic nomination in 2008 when the process wasn't tilted entirely in her favor. The one piece of policy entrepreneurship she brought to the State Department was her advocacy for intervening in Libya's civil war, an ongoing disaster.

A vote for Clinton is a vote for a status quo that, when left to itself, can barely hide its exhaustion, self-hatred, and incompetence much longer. H.L. Mencken said that "democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." The establishment deserves Clinton as its tribune. She reveals its competence as mere cleverness rather than wisdom. She is its idealism turned into a cold glare. She is the promise of revolution turned into a shoddy grift and a mirthless job.

Who will be left to defend the establishment when she's had her turn with it?
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
I get all that,... I'm just saying I've never met one person that has ever played a part in that data set, nor have I ever found anyone who who knew someone etc... and living where I do, with the jobs I have had, you'd think I'd have met hundreds... I don't buy the TV ratings being as accurate as we are told, one reason you touched on above, another reason I touched on above... among other things.
Do you even Statistics, bro?

You don't need an enormous sample to get statistically accurate results. I believe the Nielsen sample is something like 25,000 households in a country of 125 million households, so only 1 in 5,000 people are part of a Nielsen household. Regardless of the population size, a sample that big gets you very close to true population values with very high confidence.
 

BleedBlueGold

Well-known member
Messages
6,271
Reaction score
2,496
They're related. Democrat voters like to say things like "I don't like abortion, but I support a woman's right to choose." That's not the case of the Democrat political machine, which absolutely loves abortion. Once a woman has had an abortion, she's a Democrat voter for life. Even if that woman develops into a national defense free trade capitalist, she's not going to vote for a political party that believes what she did was infanticide.

I've never said such a thing as a D voter. That, to me, is an overly simplistic and ignorant argument. One I can't stand to hear made. For me, it's more about 1) Science's definition of fetus viability 2) The definition of personhood --> 2b) Which in a lot of cases comes from philosophical/theological beliefs --> 2c) Which always brings me back to separation of church and state because no legislation should ever be passed based on a religious belief when the nation Constitutionally practices freedom of religion. I will always favor scientific research and keeping religion out of our legislation when considering this topic.

None of this means that I'm pro-killing babies. It also doesn't mean that I feel people should have free reign on abortions up until the 24th week (give or take, that's debatable). There are limits to my "pro-choice" vote.

Lastly, I have firsthand experience of a Catholic, Republican-voting family member who had an abortion (not health related; completely by choice). While I find it wildly hypocritical, she will still maintain her faith and political beliefs. TIFWIW, but that's too broad of a statement to say anyone who has an abortion is a Dem for life. That's just not the case.
 

NDinL.A.

New member
Messages
8,121
Reaction score
1,734
Also...beware of future current events. You never know what is going to happen in the world before election day. If there is a steady drumbeat of terror events involving Muslims, people could swing to DJT. See recent French priest attack and today's London attack being added to the list of items including the other french attacks, the gay nightclub attack, etc. Of course DJT could continue his gaffe fest and keep rolling downhill or HRC could continue her statements on taxes -

Completely agree. I've been saying this myself for a lonnnnng time. My wife (who can't stand Trump) was glowing last night after all these polls came out, and I keep having to remind her of wikileaks and the looming threat of a major terror strike(s) and/or a substantial economic downturn. All bets are off then. Of course, not good for Trump might be the debates. It’s why Cruz and Rubio so badly wanted to get Trump one-on-one, because they knew they could murder him on intricate policy talk. Trump is beyond willfully ignorant on so many issues he’ll be easy prey. For all of Hillary’s many major faults, she is a policy nerd and she really knows her stuff (even if you disagree on her positions). If Donald can’t turn the debates into a pissing match, it could be disastrous for him.

One thing no one seems to be discussing is the turnout at Hillary and Trump events. Trump had another 15 thousand people at his Florida event yesterday and Clinton is speaking at high schools that have been less than half full. Some as low as 1/3 capacity. The reason I bring that up is come election day the voters will need a reason to take the time to go vote. As many of you anti-Trumpster's have stated, Trump supporters are "rabid" (lame term by the way). He may not have to work hard to get them out on election day whereas the Clinton Machine will have to rent a lot of buses to pick up their supporters to get them to the ballot box. I know they will have a lot of ground support, but will it be enough.

You’re falling into the same trap Donald and his “rabid” (awesome term btw) fans fall into. Donald said last night “These crowds are so large and wild…how could I be losing”? Ummmm, because your base loves you but you turn so many people off it is killing your chances to win the election. He refuses to try and expand his base, and is blinded by the love of those people.

You’re looking at it the wrong way IMHO. Hillary doesn’t inspire people and never will. (Bernie did….and still lost by millions of votes, and even if the DNC was against him, he still got his ass kicked in many key states). People are going to be voting against Donald Trump just as much for Hillary. THOSE people are fervent in their hatred of Trump. If you had an anti-Trump rally, you’d see big, passionate crowds. And those people are going to be the downfall of Trump (well, other than Trump being Trump and doing Trump things daily).
 

GowerND11

Well-known member
Messages
6,540
Reaction score
3,296
Simple question....who are the respondents to these polls? I have always wondered that. If my wife and I don't recognize the number, we don't answer the phone. I know my Mom and my In-laws are afraid of scams so they don't either.

The only time I ever participated was back when we had Gov. Arnold out here in Cali I picked up the phone for a pollster. When I found out it was questions about his performance, I hung on the line for 10 minutes to make sure they knew what a fraud and crappy Governor I thought he had been.

About 2 months ago I was receiving phone calls from some unfamiliar number, but i refused to answer. Finally on the 4th day I answered the call. It was someone from Quinnipiac Universtiy doing a poll on the Presidential Election. I entertained the woman for roughly 15 minutes. Gave me a good insight on how these polls can be rigged, especially for the 2 major parties. I would venture a guess that 90% of the questions I could only respond with Trump or Clinton. Could not say any other candidate, including Johnson whom I'll be voting for. I was able to state I plan on voting for him, and could answer his name on a handful of other questions, but everything else was geared towards to major candidates.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
I've never said such a thing as a D voter. That, to me, is an overly simplistic and ignorant argument. One I can't stand to hear made. For me, it's more about 1) Science's definition of fetus viability 2) The definition of personhood --> 2b) Which in a lot of cases comes from philosophical/theological beliefs --> 2c) Which always brings me back to separation of church and state because no legislation should ever be passed based on a religious belief when the nation Constitutionally practices freedom of religion. I will always favor scientific research and keeping religion out of our legislation when considering this topic.
Let's not make the mistake of using "IE political thread discussion board member" as a proxy for "average Democrat or Republican voter." Though I disagree with your conclusion, you appear to have arrived at your position through thoughtful discernment. For many on the Left, however, abortion is no more complicated than this:

iwd1.gif


They don't give a rat's ass about the philosophical underpinnings of personhood or the scientific consensus on fetal viability. They just "know" that Republicans hate women and want to ban birth control.

None of this means that I'm pro-killing babies. It also doesn't mean that I feel people should have free reign on abortions up until the 24th week (give or take, that's debatable). There are limits to my "pro-choice" vote.
Then is it a fair statement that, at some point in the pregnancy, you recognize a fetus' personhood and right to life? Why, then, don't you find late-term abortion as appalling as a fully pro-life person finds all abortion? How can you support a political party which, by your own stance on the matter, supports the murder of children in the womb? Because make no mistake, the Democrat Party, as a party, supports late-term abortion and the federal funding thereof.

Lastly, I have firsthand experience of a Catholic, Republican-voting family member who had an abortion (not health related; completely by choice). While I find it wildly hypocritical, she will still maintain her faith and political beliefs.TIFWIW, but that's too broad of a statement to say anyone who has an abortion is a Dem for life. That's just not the case.
Just stop. Something being generally true is not disproven just because there are exceptions. I shouldn't have to qualify every generally true statement to address every possible exception that you might raise.

Lots of older people go back to school for a degree, but I'm not going to bitch if you wanted to say something like "bachelor's degree students are 18 to 22 years old" because it's generally true and I'd get the point you were trying to make.
 
Last edited:

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,955
Reaction score
11,239
Do you even Statistics, bro?

You don't need an enormous sample to get statistically accurate results. I believe the Nielsen sample is something like 25,000 households in a country of 125 million households, so only 1 in 5,000 people are part of a Nielsen household. Regardless of the population size, a sample that big gets you very close to true population values with very high confidence.

Sorry, nope. 1 out of 5,000, at best, sample tells us what everyone else watches??... I'd like to know who the 20,000 (the number I've always seen) are... I suspect they aren't evenly distributed to match the actual demos of the population... Also, they don't even really pay any attention to who watches such and such programming, my understanding is the focus is who watches a program's commercials/ads...

but what do you or I know... I'll defer to the real experts...


“Ratings are a currency, so they’re just as important now as they were ten years ago. It’s how we get paid. But in this new media environment, do these numbers reflect accurately how many people are viewing this content? The answer is no.” - Alan Wurtzel President of Research and Media Development for NBC
 
Last edited:

tussin

Well-known member
Messages
4,153
Reaction score
1,982
I've never said such a thing as a D voter. That, to me, is an overly simplistic and ignorant argument. One I can't stand to hear made. For me, it's more about 1) Science's definition of fetus viability 2) The definition of personhood --> 2b) Which in a lot of cases comes from philosophical/theological beliefs --> 2c) Which always brings me back to separation of church and state because no legislation should ever be passed based on a religious belief when the nation Constitutionally practices freedom of religion. I will always favor scientific research and keeping religion out of our legislation when considering this topic.

None of this means that I'm pro-killing babies. It also doesn't mean that I feel people should have free reign on abortions up until the 24th week (give or take, that's debatable). There are limits to my "pro-choice" vote.

So until some arbitrary point in time the baby is considered subhuman, and then magically on Monday it turns into a human?

We are talking about life, not "personhood." The argument of "viability" and "personhood" opens a can of worms that has led to history's greatest atrocities.
 

Wild Bill

Well-known member
Messages
5,519
Reaction score
3,267
I never said that Ralph Nader caused ISIS. I said his candidacy had a direct impact on who won the 2000 election. As a result of Nader's candidacy, George Bush won Florida and the election. We got Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and a bunch of lies leading to the Iraq War. Obama has spent eight years trying to clean up the mess. All facts.

Starting the Iraq War without a viable exit plan left us entrenched there. The American public wanted us out. The newly "installed" Iraqi government wanted us out. Obama had two choices. Continue an unpopular war indefinitely or get out. We left. Saddam Hussein was no longer in power to suppress the violence and ISIS filled the void.

I concluded that I would not allow my vote to be wasted on Johnson/Weld if it meant that Trump would become president. Trump's fiery rhetoric would have us in multiple international conflicts with no end game. That looks too similar to what Bush and the Neo-Cons were doing. If you don't see the parallels, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Just off the top of my head:
HRC urged her husband to bomb the Serbs in the 90s.
HRC voted in favor of the Iraq war.
HRC recommended escalating the war in Afghanistan.
HRC pushed Obama to intervene in Libya
HRC recommended intervention in Ukraine.

I'm sure she'll avoid international conflict once she takes control of the military. She'll probably focus her attention on ending political corruption and getting money out of politics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgcd1ghag5Y
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
Sorry, nope. 1 out of 5,000, at best, sample tells us what everyone else watches??... I'd like to know who the 20,000 (the number I've always seen) are... I suspect they aren't evenly distributed to match the actually demos of the population...
Of course it is. It's not a random sample, it's a curated sample.

but what do you or I know... I'll defer to the real experts...
Dawg, you know what I do for a living, right?

“Ratings are a currency, so they’re just as important now as they were ten years ago. It’s how we get paid. But in this new media environment, do these numbers reflect accurately how many people are viewing this content? The answer is no.” - Alan Wurtzel President of Research and Media Development for NBC
Wurtzel's comments are a reflection of a few things. The first is out of home viewing, i.e. hundreds of people in bars watching sporting events are not measured in the Household numbers. The other is digital distribution. The measurement of non-linear content consumption is terrible.

None of that has anything to do with the accuracy of the Nielsen number. The sample is designed to accurately measure linear household viewing, and it does that extremely well (though yes, less than perfect).
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,546
Reaction score
29,009
There are about 100 videos like this, but IMO it's a pretty great illustration of where our country has gone (in terms of political leaders and rhetoric) in 8 short years.

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fattn%2Fvideos%2F926428204059306%2F&show_text=0&width=560" width="560" height="315" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>

No civility. No common sense. Trump is the worst candidate to be nominated for President at least in my lifetime. I encourage everyone to protest vote this year if you head to the polls.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,955
Reaction score
11,239
Of course it is. It's not a random sample, it's a curated sample.

Because stats never lie... ever, ever, ever... especially when we are talking about ~1.5 percent of the population at best... I don't care how much research, or complete and total lack there of, the selection process involves...

Dawg, you know what I do for a living, right?

Yes, you post and argue on the internet...


Wurtzel's comments are a reflection of a few things.

That all add up to the ratings not being the end all be all we are led to believe.

Why Nielsen Ratings Are Inaccurate, and Why They’ll Stay That Way - Splitsider

Ineffective Nielsen Ratings Are Ruining TV and No One Cares

Michael Wolff Blasts Nielsen Cable Ratings: What If They Aren't Real? | Hollywood Reporter

There are scores of breakdowns and articles like this... I'm not saying the points are all golden and ratings are complete garbage,... I'm just saying there is enough to at least question things... I don't buy it personally, if it's such an important thing that everyone has such an investment in, why not work with cable providers to find a better and more broad way to chart who watches what? 20,000 households who are mainly tracked for what ads they watch leaves me so unsatisfied (In my best John Malkovich from rounders voice) ...
 
Last edited:

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
Having been one of the households that has done the Nielsen ratings, it was really kind of interesting.

Also of note, I enjoy jury duty.
 
Last edited:

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
Having been one of the households that has done the Nielsen ratings, it was really kind of interesting.

Also of note, I enjoy jury duty.

Many years ago I was a Nielsen Household. It was interesting how my viewing habits shifted when I knew that I was being monitored.

In my 64 years I've never been called for jury duty – kind of a bummer, I would look forward to it. My son, on the other hand, was called twice by the time he was 25.

He wasn't empaneled in either case.
 

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
Also...beware of future current events. You never know what is going to happen in the world before election day. If there is a steady drumbeat of terror events involving Muslims, people could swing to DJT. See recent French priest attack and today's London attack being added to the list of items including the other french attacks, the gay nightclub attack, etc. Of course DJT could continue his gaffe fest and keep rolling downhill or HRC could continue her statements on taxes - WATCH: Crowd Cheers Clinton's Call To 'Raise Taxes On The Middle Class' | Daily Wire

The London knife attack doesn't appear to be terrorism (as of right now), currently they are calling it a mental health issue.

Russell Square stabbings: Man arrested on suspicion of murder - BBC News

Police arrested a 19-year-old Norwegian national of Somali origin. They say there is no evidence of radicalisation.

The Met Police's assistant commissioner for specialist operations, Mark Rowley, said the investigation was increasingly pointing to the attack being "triggered by mental health issues".
 
Last edited:

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,955
Reaction score
11,239
Many years ago I was a Nielsen Household. It was interesting how my viewing habits shifted when I knew that I was being monitored.

In my 64 years I've never been called for jury duty – kind of a bummer, I would look forward to it. My son, on the other hand, was called twice by the time he was 25.

He wasn't empaneled in either case.

Proof the findings are flawed. ;)


ON jury duty... damnit, I get called in every freakin year... every. freakin. year... I know that lame intro video by heart now...
 

enrico514

New member
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
45
American politics are so entertaining!

You guys have to select between two absolutely aweful choices: The first has proven herself to be absolutely incompetent and a liar while the second is uncouth and extremely hard to follow at times!

Still early in the race but my money is on Trump to win at this point...
 

BleedBlueGold

Well-known member
Messages
6,271
Reaction score
2,496
Let's not make the mistake of using "IE political thread discussion board member" as a proxy for "average Democrat or Republican voter." Though I disagree with your conclusion, you appear to have arrived at your position through thoughtful discernment. For many on the Left, however, abortion is no more complicated than this:



They don't give a rat's ass about the philosophical underpinnings of personhood or the scientific consensus on fetal viability. They just "know" that Republicans hate women and want to ban birth control.


Then is it a fair statement that, at some point in the pregnancy, you recognize a fetus' personhood and right to life? Why, then, don't you find late-term abortion as appalling as a fully pro-life person finds all abortion? How can you support a political party which, by your own stance on the matter, supports the murder of children in the womb? Because make no mistake, the Democrat Party, as a party, supports late-term abortion and the federal funding thereof.


Just stop. Something being generally true is not disproven just because there are exceptions. I shouldn't have to qualify every generally true statement to address every possible exception that you might raise.

Lots of older people go back to school for a degree, but I'm not going to bitch if you wanted to say something like "bachelor's degree students are 18 to 22 years old" because it's generally true and I'd get the point you were trying to make.

The brief answer is that I don't consider myself a Democrat, nor do I fully support that party. I bitch about them all the time. Yes, I lean left on a lot of issues, but not w/o understanding that there are problems with their issues/beliefs. I absolutely do not support late term abortions, per your example.

I'm just saying not all voters are single-issue voters. So I used the example of a family member who doesn't view the pro-life/pro-choice issue as paramount in our political landscape...ie...we have other bigger things to worry about, and she votes accordingly to be consistent with her other values and political beliefs.

So until some arbitrary point in time the baby is considered subhuman, and then magically on Monday it turns into a human?

We are talking about life, not "personhood." The argument of "viability" and "personhood" opens a can of worms that has led to history's greatest atrocities.

You're absolutely talking about personhood. Persons have Constitutional rights. The definition of when a fetus becomes a person is totally relevant. Jews and slaves were stripped of their personhood, thus taking away their rights. I'm assuming this is your reference?

Who and what defines personhood is debatable, and oftentimes, I hear it argued based on theological beliefs. And imo, that's wrong, because as I've pointed out in the past, not all religions define it the same way. So who gets the trump card here? No pun intended.
 

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
Proof the findings are flawed. ;)


ON jury duty... damnit, I get called in every freakin year... every. freakin. year... I know that lame intro video by heart now...

Yep.

Never on a jury but called as a witness in one civil, one criminal and one juvenile matter.

I'll save the rather long saga of 11 year old Sammy Lamont Johnson for some later date.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,955
Reaction score
11,239
American politics are so entertaining!

You guys have to select between two absolutely aweful choices: The first has proven herself to be absolutely incompetent and a liar while the second is uncouth and extremely hard to follow at times!

Still early in the race but my money is on Trump to win at this point...

I'll take that bet..... and all your money.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Who and what defines personhood is debatable, and oftentimes, I hear it argued based on theological beliefs. And imo, that's wrong, because as I've pointed out in the past, not all religions define it the same way. So who gets the trump card here? No pun intended.

There's no such thing as the view from nowhere. Anything having to do with ultimate values is essentially theology. So the liberal position on when "personhood" begins is no less theological than the Christian one.

But let's set that aside for a moment. Science is not helpful for determining personhood because, as you've noted, that's the domain of philosophy/ theology. But the science is absolutely settled that human life begins at conception. One could quite defensibly identify as pro-life because: (1) it makes sense that legal personhood and human life begin together; and (2) those who have sought to exclude vulnerable minorities from the sphere of legal personhood have always been "on the wrong side of history".

The evil wrought by antebellum slave holders and Nazi racial supremacists is self-evident. That liberals feel comfortable condemning those sorts of eugenics, but give out standing ovations for abortion is staggering cognitive dissonance.
 
Last edited:

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,708
Reaction score
6,016
There's no such thing as the view from nowhere. Anything having to do with ultimate values is essentially theology. So the liberal position on when "personhood" begins is no less theological than the Christian one.

But let's set that aside for a moment. Science is not helpful for determining personhood because, as you've noted, that's the domain of philosophy/ theology. But the science is absolutely settled that human life begins at conception. One could quite defensibly identify as pro-life because: (1) it makes sense that legal personhood and human life begin together; and (2) those who sought to exclude vulnerable minorities from the sphere of legal personhood were obviously "on the wrong side of history".

The evil wrought by antebellum slave holders and Nazi racial supremacists is self-evident. That liberals feel comfortable condemning those sorts of eugenics, but give out standing ovations for abortion is staggering cognitive dissonance.

Life begins at conception. How old is a child before they can really be called viable? Several years old.
 
Top