2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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IrishJayhawk

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Yeah, that headline is horse shit. In the very platform that you linked to, the word "conversion" appears zero times.

I'm aware of that. I looked. The argument they're making (from a very partisan perspective, to be certain) is that the wording allows for it even if they aren't using the words "conversion therapy." They removed those words, but they kept the section that would allow it.

ETA: Do you think that conversion therapy would not be allowed given the language that they carefully chose?
 

wizards8507

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I'm aware of that. I looked. The argument they're making (from a very partisan perspective, to be certain) is that the wording allows for it even if they aren't using the words "conversion therapy." They removed those words, but they kept the section that would allow it.
The section, which I included in my edit, doesn't say anything about it or anything that even sounds like it.

Do you think that conversion therapy would not be allowed given the language that they carefully chose?
Not anything that amounts to the child abuse described by Wooly (which I'm pretty sure he got from an episode of SVU). What likely would be allowed is psychological therapy for gender dysphoria, a scientifically recognized mental disorder.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Interesting. I think that wording is pretty clearly intended to be supportive of conversion therapy without actually saying the words "conversion therapy."

Perhaps that's a Protestant dog whistle for "conversion therapy", and as a Catholic I'm just not savvy to it. My issue with it is that, based on that wording alone, you could also tarnish the Catholic position: that sexual orientation essentialism is a harmful (and fairly recent) ideology, that every person is tempted in different ways, but that we're all called to live chastely. So when a man who identifies as a homosexual (not a real thing) is put through some psudeo-scientific "conversion therapy" bullsh!t to try to make him a heterosexual (also not a real thing), it will likely do great harm to him. But if that same man, who experiences homosexual urges, were to consult with an orthodox Catholic priest, he would be counselled to "change his sexual behavior" and begin striving for chastity. There's nothing bigoted about the proposition that extra-marital sexual acts that aren't primarily ordered toward procreation is immoral.

So they'd be cool with helping Bruce Jenner change his behavior and become Caytlin Jenner?

I hope they'd see Bruce as a deeply troubled, likely mentally ill, man who deserves mercy and compassion, but not social approbation for surgically mutilating himself. Though the part of the GOP that cares deeply about these issues has been marginalized for years, and Trump's candidacy has almost driven them from the party entirely.

If not, it seems like a less course way of describing conversion therapy.

It's clearly a nod to social conservatives, but the language Pence used and the wording of the platform is pretty broad and shouldn't be controversial. Regardless, the GOP has promptly rolled over every time it's been challenged on these issues, so it's hardly worth getting worked up over.
 
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wizards8507

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I hope they'd see Bruce as a deeply troubled, likely mentally ill, man who deserves mercy and compassion, but not social approbation for surgically mutilating himself. Though the part of the GOP that cares deeply about these issues has been marginalized for years, and Trump candidacy has driven them from the party entirely.
More gravely, the part of the Catholic Church that cares deeply about these issues has also been marginalized for years, and the Francis papacy may drive many of them from the Church entirely.
 

woolybug25

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Perhaps that's a Protestant dog whistle for "conversion therapy", and as a Catholic I'm just not savvy to it. My issue with it is that, based on that wording alone, you could also tarnish the Catholic position: that sexual orientation essentialism is a harmful (and fairly recent) ideology, that every person is tempted in different ways, but that we're all called to live chastely. So when a man who identifies as a homosexual (not a real thing) is put through some psudeo-scientific "conversion therapy" bullsh!t to try to make him a heterosexual (also not a real thing), it will likely do great harm to him. But if that same man, who experiences homosexual urges, were to consult with an orthodox Catholic priest, he would be counselled to "change his sexual behavior" and begin striving for chastity. There's nothing bigoted about the proposition that extra-marital sexual acts that aren't primarily ordered toward procreation is immoral.



I hope they'd see Bruce as a deeply troubled, likely mentally ill, man who deserves mercy and compassion, but not social approbation for surgically mutilating himself. Though the part of the GOP that cares deeply about these issues has been marginalized for years, and Trump's candidacy has almost driven them from the party entirely.



It's clearly a nod to social conservatives, but the language Pence used and the wording of the platform is pretty broad and shouldn't be controversial. Regardless, the GOP has promptly rolled over every time it's been challenged on these issues, so it's hardly worth getting worked up over.

That wasn't Pence's only comment. I linked and quoted him directly saying that he supported and even wanted taxpayer money to contribute to it.
 

zelezo vlk

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More gravely, the part of the Catholic Church that cares deeply about these issues has also been marginalized for years, and the Francis papacy may drive many of them from the Church entirely.
To what, sedevacantism?

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Whiskeyjack

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Conversion therapy is straight up parental abuse, homie. In my opinion, it should be outlawed. If parents want to try to help their kids through the lord or whatever, then go for it. But sending a kid to a camp to have a bunch of weirdos strap them to chairs and watch porn all day is sick.

I agree! What I'm not comfortable with is reading malice into an innocuous phrase like "changing sexual behavior". Sexual ethics is a thing, and I think our society would be better served by a deeper understanding of it than "anything two consenting adults wanna do is A-OK!"
 

Whiskeyjack

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That wasn't Pence's only comment. I linked and quoted him directly saying that he supported and even wanted taxpayer money to contribute to it.

You linked to this PolitiFact article which does not provide such a direct quote from Pence.

As I mentioned earlier, I have no desire to defend Pence. Perhaps he has publicly voiced support for conversion therapy, but if he has, I haven't seen evidence of it in this thread yet.
 

wizards8507

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To what, sedevacantism?
Ay, there's the rub.

All I know is that it's become difficult, as a practical matter, to live one's faith in accordance with the scripture and the Catechism when so much of the direction coming from all levels of the Hierarchy is at best contradictory and at worst heretical.

I'm not a big conspiracy theorist but there's something foul coming out of The Society of Jesus. Just setting foot on a Jesuit campus makes you feel like you're in a bad Dan Brown novel.
 

zelezo vlk

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Ay, there's the rub.

All I know is that it's become difficult, as a practical matter, to live one's faith in accordance with the scripture and the Catechism when so much of the direction coming from all levels of the Hierarchy is at best contradictory and at worst heretical.

I'm not a big conspiracy theorist but there's something foul coming out of The Society of Jesus. Just setting foot on a Jesuit campus makes you feel like you're in a bad Dan Brown novel.
It's the older generation. I know several young Jesuit seminarians who are very orthodox and have heard nothing but great things about the next generation of priests.

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woolybug25

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I agree! What I'm not comfortable with is reading malice into an innocuous phrase like "changing sexual behavior". Sexual ethics is a thing, and I think our society would be better served by a deeper understanding of it than "anything two consenting adults wanna do is A-OK!"

Malice or not, the practice has a long history of horrific results. We're not talking about consenting adults, we are talking about children that are being sent to unregulated "camps" where they have historically been subjected to mental and physical abuse. I'm all for parents having choice in normal therapy and medical sources. But this is not that. For example, Koon could open up a "conversion therapy" shop tomorrow and start using whatever brand of crazy he chooses. Does that seem like something government should be mandating as acceptable or using our tax dollars for?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Ay, there's the rub.

All I know is that it's become difficult, as a practical matter, to live one's faith in accordance with the scripture and the Catechism when so much of the direction coming from all levels of the Hierarchy is at best contradictory and at worst heretical.

I'm not a big conspiracy theorist but there's something foul coming out of The Society of Jesus. Just setting foot on a Jesuit campus makes you feel like you're in a bad Dan Brown novel.

It has ever been thus.
 

woolybug25

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You linked to this PolitiFact article which does not provide such a direct quote from Pence.

As I mentioned earlier, I have no desire to defend Pence. Perhaps he has publicly voiced support for conversion therapy, but if he has, I haven't seen evidence of it in this thread yet.

Yes it did.

When asked about the claim, Newsom’s spokesman pointed to Pence’s own words. During his first successful run for Congress in 2000, Pence wrote on his campaign website, under a section called Strengthening the American Family:

"Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behavior."
 

Whiskeyjack

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Yes it did.

Which brings me back to my initial point. "Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behavior," does not, on its face, equate to support for conversion therapy specifically. If that phrasing is odious, then the Catholic Church is also bigoted for counseling chastity.

I'm open to the possibility that the above statement is a coded reference to conversion therapy, but I've seen no evidence for that yet.
 

connor_in

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I never asked anyone to vote for me because I'm a woman. I wanted people to vote for me because I was the right person for the job.</p>— Jan Brewer (@GovBrewer) <a href="https://twitter.com/GovBrewer/status/759066879084204033">July 29, 2016</a></blockquote>
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NDinL.A.

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I understand he's alienated some conservative voters but my underlying point is that dems have been playing the identity politics game for as long as I can remember and they're winning. They're going to continue to play the game regardless of what the GOP does.

Just look at the demographic breakdown of voting in 2012:
Whites favored Romney 59-39
Blacks favored Obama 93-6
Hispanics favored Obama 71-27

The numbers suggest whites are much more wiling to vote D than blacks or hispanics are willing to vote R yet we're sitting here discussing the racial implications of Trump increasing the R share of white votes by a couple percent. That just strikes me as bizarre.

I am no way discussing the racial implications of Trump increasing the white vote. He needed to expand his base and that was one way to do it.

My whole thing is that he did that while bashing many non-whites, excluding many non-white Christians, and trying to change the Constitution so he can exclude an entire religion. Could he have expanded the W vote without all that? Not sure. But as a Republican, I sure as hell wish he had. I'm all for a more inclusive conservative voting base. Trump himself said the reason Romney lost was because he was "mean-spirited to Latinos" (that's a direct quote from 2013). Too bad for many of us, he ignored his own advice.

It seems to be working though. But like I said, a win for him IMHO is a loss for the Republican Party and a loss for conservatives (and the country, but you already know my thoughts on that lol).
 

connor_in

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hedge-fund money: $48.5 million for <a href="https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton">@HillaryClinton</a>, $19,000 for <a href="https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump">@realDonaldTrump</a> <a href="https://t.co/5R9jFZGuKX">https://t.co/5R9jFZGuKX</a></p>— Gerard Baker (@gerardtbaker) <a href="https://twitter.com/gerardtbaker/status/758959097882357760">July 29, 2016</a></blockquote>
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NorthDakota

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I am no way discussing the racial implications of Trump increasing the white vote. He needed to expand his base and that was one way to do it.

My whole thing is that he did that while bashing many non-whites, excluding many non-white Christians, and trying to change the Constitution so he can exclude an entire religion. Could he have expanded the W vote without all that? Not sure. But as a Republican, I sure as hell wish he had. I'm all for a more inclusive conservative voting base. Trump himself said the reason Romney lost was because he was "mean-spirited to Latinos" (that's a direct quote from 2013). Too bad for many of us, he ignored his own advice.

It seems to be working though. But like I said, a win for him IMHO is a loss for the Republican Party and a loss for conservatives (and the country, but you already know my thoughts on that lol).

How is that unconstitutional?
 

wizards8507

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If I have to spell out all (any of) the ways Donald Trump pisses on the Constitution, then you're already so ingrained in Trump it would be a waste of time.
Trump is clueless about the Constitution, that's correct. It's also correct that the Muslim ban was a stupid idea. It's not correct that the Muslim ban was unconstitutional.
 

NDinL.A.

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Trump is clueless about the Constitution, that's correct. It's also correct that the Muslim ban was a stupid idea. It's not correct that the Muslim ban was unconstitutional.

I agree. Just re-read it and that part I wrote is poorly worded. There are other ways he pisses on the first amendment, but the way I worded it, while his idea is whole-heartedly stupid, is probably not unconstitutional (although I've read where people argue it is -even a Harvard professor who would know more than me but is probably partisan...not sure I agree though).
 
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connor_in

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From ebaumsworld humor website

85091349.jpg
 

RDU Irish

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Yeah, that headline is horse shit. In the very platform that you linked to, the word "conversion" appears zero times.

"We support the ability of all organizations to provide, purchase, or enroll in healthcare coverage consistent with their religious, moral, or ethical convictions without discrimination or penalty. We support the right of parents to determine the proper medical treatment and therapy for their minor children. We support the right of parents to consent to medical treatment for their minor children and urge enactment of legislation that would require parental consent for their daughter to be transported across state lines for abortion."

That's the line they're twisting into "conversion therapy."


I see a nod to the Jenny McCarthy anti-vaccine crowd. Not a single candidate knocked that shit to the curb - including two doctors when it came up in one of the early debates. R platform.
 

ulukinatme

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It's going to be soooo crazy! <a href="https://t.co/QYLQW3QEUI">pic.twitter.com/QYLQW3QEUI</a></p>— MATT DRUDGE (@DRUDGE) <a href="https://twitter.com/DRUDGE/status/759003625796448256">July 29, 2016</a></blockquote>
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