2016 Fall Camp Thread

[Irish Insanity]

Hey Koon, it's Zaire

 

[koonja]

Hey Koon, it's Zaire

I'm just trolling because it's so normal to get upset about spelling of player's names that it's an easy target.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Yup. It actually amazes me that people don't want the younger QB who came in cold off the bench against Virginia and threw an absolute DIME in the final seconds to win the game. He then went on to win 8 more games playing excellent football. He has more actual game experience than the older QB and his ceiling is higher, too.

But Zaire was injured...
But Zaire was promised this is his team...
But Zaire has more swag...
But the team plays harder for Zaire...
But Zaire is 1 in 85...
But Zaire has looked great......in 2 games plus the Spring...

 

[gkIrish]

Kizer vs. Pitt:

Att percent yards yards/per TD Int QBR
19/26 73% 262 10.1 5 0 76.5

Ziare vs. Texas:

Att percent Yards yards/per TD Int QBR
19/22 86% 313 14.2 3 0 93.8

I like Malik in that comparison. Wow that formatting is ugly.

I am not comparing their performance on a game by game basis. Malik will win that comparison every time because he has literally played one full game lol.

Like I said, Pittsburgh's defense was much better. I was just giving another example of a ND QB dominating someone as bad as MZ dominated Texas. Hell EG probably dominated Syracuse that one night too. He was like 19 for 19 or something like that to start the game.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I'm just trolling because it's so normal to get upset about spelling of player's names that it's an easy target.

#Reckless

 

[gkIrish]

I'm just trolling because it's so normal to get upset about spelling of player's names that it's an easy target.

You do know trolling in any form is a bannable offense, right? Just FYI.

 

[koonja]

You do know trolling in any form is a bannable offense, right? Just FYI.

Ok? I'm not intentionally spelling names wrong. I didn't know I needed italics for that post...

If I'm busy at work, I'm not going to take the time to look up how to spell Peter Mokwuah, but I'll give it a college try. If that's bannable, sail me away because I'm not going to google player's names everytime I reference them.

 

[Luckylucci]

From a passing perspective Texas is the anomaly for Zaire. He hasn't proven that he can consistently push the ball downfield. Where Kizer has shown plenty of that and he improved dramatically in the zone read.

Pass Game:
1. Kizer
2. Zaire

Run Game:
1A. Zaire
1B. Kizer

Until this changes, I don't see how you start Zaire. Now, maybe it has and we haven't had the luxury of seeing it. That could be possible but I'll be skeptical.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Kizer basically won that temple game. Huge run for a score and hit Fuller for the winning score. He had a couple pics but one was not his fault.

And Temple fielded a top 20 defense last year.

Yup. It actually amazes me that people don't want the younger QB who came in cold off the bench against Virginia and threw an absolute DIME in the final seconds to win the game. He then went on to win 8 more games playing excellent football. He has more actual game experience than the older QB and his ceiling is higher, too.

I think it's mostly due to Zaire being a very likeable guy and a natural leader who had a fairy tale beginning to his stint as ND starting QB. But based on an objective comparison of their bodies of work to date, I don't think there's any argument for Zaire > Kizer.

 

[NDohio]

I think MZ gets the benefit of revisionist history.

The LSU game was fun to watch him, but EG had a really good game too. And that final drive for the W? Golson was on fire.

Texas - he did look great. Texas defense was awful.

MZ struggled with consistency against VA. He did seem to be turning it around when he was injured, but he really wasn't all that great for that game.

Unless MZ really jumps over Kizer, I am with gk - Kizer is the man.

 

[dwshade]

Zaire is still a huge question mark when it comes to making plays in the passing game. Last year he had one good game, Texas. Plus one borderline terrible game, Virginia. LSU he was efficient but very few plays downfield. !2 completed passes for 80 yards, is not a number you want to repeat.

This. We know how important consistency in the passing game is to Kelly. And he just mentioned after practice the other day what a great job Kizer did getting the team into the right plays. Kizer at this time is the more complete QB and that's not a knock on Malik. I'd be shocked if Kizer isn't the starter but Malik will play.

 

[arrowryan]

GK, you very well may be right about Kizer being the starting quarterback. I think Kelly might roll with Zaire against Texas because:

1.) BK and HH have the best o-line in the country
2.) BK and Denson probably have one of the best backfield me in the country
3.) I think their game plan will be to pound the shit out of the ball and I think that benefits Zaire's game more.
4.) Kizer likes to air it out and BK might be afraid to do that because of the lack of experience at receiver

 

[Ndaccountant]

Yup. It actually amazes me that people don't want the younger QB who came in cold off the bench against Virginia and threw an absolute DIME in the final seconds to win the game. He then went on to win 8 more games playing excellent football. He has more actual game experience than the older QB and his ceiling is higher, too.

I think it depends on the offenses. Taking what offense the ND coaching staff wants to run this year off the table for a moment, I would go with Zaire. The reason being is that I would want a much more run oriented offense and I think ND would be more focused on the run with him at QB. I think Kizer is the better passer and probably the better overall QB, but given the apparent strength and weaknesses of this team, I want Zaire. Simply put, I don't trust Kelly focusing on the run with Kizer at QB and the lack of experience at WR is unsettling, considering we are playing at Texas and against MSU in the first three weeks of the year.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

GK, you very well may be right about Kizer being the starting quarterback. I think Kelly might roll with Zaire against Texas because:

1.) BK and HH have the best o-line in the country
2.) BK and Denson probably have one of the best backfield me in the country
3.) I think their game plan will be to pound the shit out of the ball and I think that benefits Zaire's game more.
4.) Kizer likes to air it out and BK might be afraid to do that because of the lack of experience at receiver

OR...

Kizer is perfectly capable at running the option offense and handing the ball off to our top RB corp behind our stud OL....and when TX wises up and loads the box....Kizer is fully capable of shredding their terrible defense through the air.

Being one-dimensional is not ideal. Kizer can do what Malik does on the ground (for the most part), but Malik hasn't been able to prove he can do what Kizer does in the air. It's a no-brainer for me. Give the ball to Kizer and let him run the offense.

 

[gkIrish]

GK, you very well may be right about Kizer being the starting quarterback. I think Kelly might roll with Zaire against Texas because:

1.) BK and HH have the best o-line in the country
2.) BK and Denson probably have one of the best backfield me in the country
3.) I think their game plan will be to pound the shit out of the ball and I think that benefits Zaire's game more.
4.) Kizer likes to air it out and BK might be afraid to do that because of the lack of experience at receiver

I wouldn't normally advocate for starting a specific QB over another based solely on the opponent, but there is also something to be said for the fact that Texas has already played against Zaire and maybe starting Kizer is better because they are less familiar with him.

But there is also more tape on Kizer so that is another factor.

 

[tussin]

The guys on ISD Power Hour seemed to be leaning towards Zaire FWIW.

 

[NDdomer2]

The guys on ISD Power Hour seemed to be leaning towards Zaire FWIW.

well if Mike Frank is saying it....

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think it depends on the offenses. Taking what offense the ND coaching staff wants to run this year off the table for a moment, I would go with Zaire. The reason being is that I would want a much more run oriented offense and I think ND would be more focused on the run with him at QB. I think Kizer is the better passer and probably the better overall QB, but given the apparent strength and weaknesses of this team, I want Zaire. Simply put, I don't trust Kelly focusing on the run with Kizer at QB and the lack of experience at WR is unsettling, considering we are playing at Texas and against MSU in the first three weeks of the year.

As much as we might pine for a run-first spread offense like Meyer's or Malzahn's, that's never been Kelly's style. 4 verts is his favorite play, and he's shown a consistent bias in favor of "passing to run". Assuming we've got at least a handful of somewhat reliable receivers (Hunter, Smythe, Weisher, etc.), Kizer has got to be the first choice based on what we know Kelly wants to do. The only way I could see Zaire getting the nod is if our receiving corps is a total sh!tshow, and Malik is much better at running the ground game than Kizer; but even then, you run the risk of opponents stacking the box and daring Malik to beat them with his arm. Can't do that against Kizer...

 

[kmoose]

I was just giving another example of a ND QB dominating someone as bad as MZ dominated Texas. Hell EG probably dominated Syracuse that one night too. He was like 19 for 19 or something like that to start the game.

2008 Sheraton Hawaii Bowl


Jimmy Clausen: 22/26 (85%), 401 yds, 5 TDs, 0 INT.

 

[connor_in]

Ok? I'm not intentionally spelling names wrong. I didn't know I needed italics for that post...

If I'm busy at work, I'm not going to take the time to look up how to spell Peter Mokwuah, but I'll give it a college try. If that's bannable, sail me away because I'm not going to google player's names everytime I reference them.

If spelling is a "bannable" offense, dshans is gunna git reel lonelee

 

[NDohio]

I think it depends on the offenses. Taking what offense the ND coaching staff wants to run this year off the table for a moment, I would go with Zaire. The reason being is that I would want a much more run oriented offense and I think ND would be more focused on the run with him at QB. I think Kizer is the better passer and probably the better overall QB, but given the apparent strength and weaknesses of this team, I want Zaire. Simply put, I don't trust Kelly focusing on the run with Kizer at QB and the lack of experience at WR is unsettling, considering we are playing at Texas and against MSU in the first three weeks of the year.

But doesn't this theory make the offense one dimensional and give the opposing coaches the heads up on what kind of offense ND will be running? At least with Kizer, who is completely capable of operating a run oriented offense, there is more of a threat for the passing game keeping the defense a little off balance.

 

[Ndaccountant]

As much as we might pine for a run-first spread offense like Meyer's or Malzahn's, that's never been Kelly's style. 4 verts is his favorite play, and he's shown a consistent bias in favor of "passing to run". Assuming we've got at least a handful of somewhat reliable receivers (Hunter, Smythe, Weisher, etc.), Kizer has got to be the first choice based on what we know Kelly wants to do. The only way I could see Zaire getting the nod is if our receiving corps is a total sh!tshow, and Malik is much better at running the ground game than Kizer; but even then, you run the risk of opponents stacking the box and daring Malik to beat them with his arm. Can't do that against Kizer...

Oh I know that Kelly would prefer to do that, I just wanted to provide a retort to

It actually amazes me that people don't want the younger QB who came in cold off the bench against Virginia and threw an absolute DIME in the final seconds to win the game. He then went on to win 8 more games playing excellent football. He has more actual game experience than the older QB and his ceiling is higher, too.

I can think of a few different reasons why some would want him. I am not saying that Kelly would nor should given his offensive philosophy. That said, I am nervous that our WR play is going to bite us in the ass in one of the first three games. Whether or not the mistakes are big enough for us to lose is TBD.

Finally, I get the whole stacking the box mentality. But I personally still believe the jury is out on whether or not Kizer can throw people open or go through progressions consistently enough to prevent defenses from stacking the box. The WR's are talented, but something tells me MSU is going to dare us to pass no matter who is the QB.

 

[Ndaccountant]

But doesn't this theory make the offense one dimensional and give the opposing coaches the heads up on what kind of offense ND will be running? At least with Kizer, who is completely capable of operating a run oriented offense, there is more of a threat for the passing game keeping the defense a little off balance.

The defenses will key on the run regardless until the WR's demonstrate consistency. The question is whether or not the play action game would be better suited as the element of surprise than the "balanced" spread with Kizer. Considering the early part of the schedule and the lack of known offensive threats on MSU and Texas, I would go with the safety of the ground and pound until the WR's get some experience.

 

[ulukinatme]

GK, you very well may be right about Kizer being the starting quarterback. I think Kelly might roll with Zaire against Texas because:

1.) BK and HH have the best o-line in the country
2.) BK and Denson probably have one of the best backfield me in the country
3.) I think their game plan will be to pound the shit out of the ball and I think that benefits Zaire's game more.
4.) Kizer likes to air it out and BK might be afraid to do that because of the lack of experience at receiver

That's my thought process. We've got a lot of inexperience at WR right now, a lot of question marks. Losing Alize doesn't break us, but that compounds the issue because he was probably our best receiving threat at TE. We've got a very talented OL, very talented and experienced RBs, and a QB in Zaire that gives defenses fits with the Option. He's not quite as poised as Kizer throwing the ball, but he's certainly no slouch. Just makes sense to pound the ball and throw enough to keep the defense honest.

The guys on ISD Power Hour seemed to be leaning towards Zaire FWIW.

 

[NDohio]

The defenses will key on the run regardless until the WR's demonstrate consistency. The question is whether or not the play action game would be better suited as the element of surprise than the "balanced" spread with Kizer. Considering the early part of the schedule and the lack of known offensive threats at MSU and Texas, I would go with the safety of the ground and pound until the WR's get some experience.

I guess I just see two things differently than you:

1. The threat of passing from Kizer to Hunter Jr as being a very important part of keeping the defense honest if we go ground and pound and our young WRs are struggling.

2. The capabilities of our two QB's in leading a ground and pound offense. I don't see Zaire being that much better than Kizer. Kizer ran the read option really well the second half of the season and even though he may not be as flashy as Zaire, his effectiveness of running the ball was really good.

 

[koonja]

44% of our passing yards went to Fuller, and 67% of our passing TDs. I'm not saying he'd be bad, but I wonder how Kizer will look without a truly elite WR. And I don't toss around the term 'elite'.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I guess I just see two things differently than you:

1. The threat of passing from Kizer to Hunter Jr as being a very important part of keeping the defense honest if we go ground and pound and our young WRs are struggling.

2. The capabilities of our two QB's in leading a ground and pound offense. I don't see Zaire being that much better than Kizer. Kizer ran the read option really well the second half of the season and even though he may not be as flashy as Zaire, his effectiveness of running the ball was really good.

Those are fair points. I guess I am not as convinced Hunter will be as dominating as some suggest. Fuller was such a big vertical threat that teams couldn't go single safety high without playing with fire (cough, USC, cough). I don't personally view Hunter as that type of threat. To me, he is going to make more plays 0-20 years from the LOS. He is very good, just a different player which will change the dynamics.

As far as QB's are concerned, you may be right. I just think Zaire is more decisive and a bit quicker. I know Kizer was productive last year, but again, I think that had more to do with all of threats on the field. To me, I am not convinced he can produce like that when he is the threat teams key on.

 

[koonja]

The guys on ISD Power Hour seemed to be leaning towards Zaire FWIW.

Can't wait to hear that audio chocolate on the way home.

 

[koonja]

Those are fair points. I guess I am not as convinced Hunter will be as dominating as some suggest. Fuller was such a big vertical threat that teams couldn't go single safety high without playing with fire (cough, USC, cough). I don't personally view Hunter as that type of threat. To me, he is going to make more plays 0-20 years from the LOS. He is very good, just a different player which will change the dynamics.

As far as QB's are concerned, you may be right. I just think Zaire is more decisive and a bit quicker. I know Kizer was productive last year, but again, I think that had more to do with all of threats on the field. To me, I am not convinced he can produce like that when he is the threat teams key on.

I'm with you. 28 receptions and 362 yards last year. I'd label him as dependable and solid, but he's not going to be a threat that the defense is going to worry about. IMO.

 

[Luckylucci]

44% of our passing yards went to Fuller, and 67% of our passing TDs. I'm not saying he'd be bad, but I wonder how Kizer will look without a truly elite WR. And I don't toss around the term 'elite'.

Well the same could be said for Zaire, lol. Texas and UVA. Fuller had 142 of 313 yards against Texas. If Fuller doesn't absolutely torch that UVA CB for a touchdown, that would have been a horrific performance by Zaire. He was 7 for 18 for 115 yards. Take away that one play and wow is that bad.

Probably the worst argument you could make in this case.