2013 Fall Camp Thread

[chubler]

Now, ZMart, Watt and Lombard are ready; and little brother NMart seems a precocious surprise. But we STILL don't know if we're solid All-Five. It's a tale to be told.

How anybody can gripe about Coach's offense with a straight face, when the guy has been lumbered with a massive OLine development problem [how FAST does anyone think you can turn a Five-Fingered Fist into a harmonious power unit anyway?]

So what's your feeling on the Oline going into this year? and along the same lines, what do you think scUM's chances of fielding a decent Oline this year are like? (crucial imo to that game, which is crucial imo to our season)

 

[Whiskeyjack]

As well he should. It was a dreadful performance by the coaching staff and team as a whole.

I doubt there's a single coach out there who could have done better with the talent on hand than Kelly did last season.

The actual starters, sans Golic, over the last couple years have been good players and some good young guys (Martin, Lombard, Stanley, Hanratty) have been developing behind them. Kelly is calling Zac Martin the best OT in college football and Watt is going to be an early round draft pick. This team has talent along the line so to excuse the commitment to running the football on a lack of talent or depth is just wrong. I'm not saying running the ball is the only way to create an identity, but really what has this offense done consistently well under Kelly outside of throwing to the TE's? We are going into year 4 without really knowing what this offense can hang their hat on. Again I contend that the horses are their this year to play power football and Kelly should take advantage of it.

No one disagrees with you here, and it's pretty clear that we're headed for a dynamic "power spread" based on an elite OL and flexible TEs. But this argument started because you blamed Kelly for poor QB development and an insufficient dedication to the run in the past. I think it's pretty clear that he was simply making the best of what he had to work with at the time.

I agree, but don't abandon what you just did well the week prior! He can not allow a defense to dictate his offensive strategy and how he wants to play football.

Why is it a good idea to attack an undersized military academy and a B1G DL with NFL-caliber players on it in the same fashion?

It looked like a completely different offense from the week prior with virtually no attempt to do what they did so well the week prior. Every run was into the teeth of that Purdue defense instead of trying to exploit the edges. I really had no idea what Kelly was trying to do offensively in that game and Mayock seemed to concur as well. 10 rushes a half that game was way too little, essentially putting the outcome on Golson in his second career start.

All right, armchair QB. I'm sure you know better than the 3rd best coach in CFB. Call me a Pollyanna if you must, but I'm inclined to assume that Kelly knew going into the game that the right side of his OL was going to get exposed by Purdue's DL. The proof is on the game tape and in the stats. How you can be so certain that we would have been more successful simply by "committing to the run" is beyond me.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Chubler: All I have is vague hopes. ZMart is great.{fact}. Watt is very good/ draftable {fact}. Lombard is good+, maybe very good and ultimately draftable {pretty close to a fact}. NMart is --- I'm going with Kelly here, he talks about NMart FAR higher than almost anybody there except his big brother --- apparently very good, at least Lombard quality, going towards Watt quality. And then who?

Everytime [lately] that Coach talks about OLine, Ronnie Stanley gets special mention some way or another. Hanratty gets neutral mentions as does Elmer --- Upbeat but no glow. So I say Ronnie Stanley as our fifth.

That makes athletic and mostly "mean" studs all across the line. BIG potential. Will they "mesh"? IF they do, we'll have our first really good OLine in a while. If not, we'll see the DT-through the right-middle phenomenon, and the pulling RG not quite always getting there phenomenon too often.


As to Michigan: there's an awful lot of happy talk coming out of Ann Arbor which sounds like Whistling in the Dark to me, about their OLine. One tackle real good; one tackle solid probably. And, in my opinion, an OLine interior completely unproven.

I don't care how "starred" anyone's candidates are, trying to upgrade/ replace THREE side-by-side interior line positions at the same time seems damm near impossible to me. Say Kalis turns out to be precocious, like our NMart has. OK. How lucky are they going to get with the other two? AND HOW FAST? We play them second game afterall.

If I was a thinking Michigan fan, I'd be VERY worried about a lot of things. If Notre Dame can do a decent job on their defensive line, and stop Gallon from grabbing home-runs, we'll bury them.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If I was a thinking Michigan fan, I'd be VERY worried about a lot of things. If Notre Dame can do a decent job on their defensive line, and stop Gallon from grabbing home-runs, we'll bury them.

That just about sums it up.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Chubler: All I have is vague hopes. ZMart is great.{fact}. Watt is very good/ draftable {fact}. Lombard is good+, maybe very good and ultimately draftable {pretty close to a fact}. NMart is --- I'm going with Kelly here, he talks about NMart FAR higher than almost anybody there except his big brother --- apparently very good, at least Lombard quality, going towards Watt quality. And then who?

Everytime [lately] that Coach talks about OLine, Ronnie Stanley gets special mention some way or another. Hanratty gets neutral mentions as does Elmer --- Upbeat but no glow. So I say Ronnie Stanley as our fifth.

That makes athletic and mostly "mean" studs all across the line. BIG potential. Will they "mesh"? IF they do, we'll have our first really good OLine in a while. If not, we'll see the DT-through the right-middle phenomenon, and the pulling RG not quite always getting there phenomenon too often.


As to Michigan: there's an awful lot of happy talk coming out of Ann Arbor which sounds like Whistling in the Dark to me, about their OLine. One tackle real good; one tackle solid probably. And, in my opinion, an OLine interior completely unproven.

I don't care how "starred" anyone's candidates are, trying to upgrade/ replace THREE side-by-side interior line positions at the same time seems damm near impossible to me. Say Kalis turns out to be precocious, like our NMart has. OK. How lucky are they going to get with the other two? AND HOW FAST? We play them second game afterall.

If I was a thinking Michigan fan, I'd be VERY worried about a lot of things. If Notre Dame can do a decent job on their defensive line, and stop Gallon from grabbing home-runs, we'll bury them.

The Irish DL should own the Michigan OL. Even with the "dirtiest" player in college football in Taylor Lewan playing tackle. Beat his as* down for me. Thanks Irish.

 

[NDWorld247]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/8Y5ulhuEuX8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Patulski]

Which teams have found recent success by committing to the run? Wisconsin, Stanford, 'Bama, etc. (Oregon's a different beast). All of those teams have deep and talented OL. ND hasn't had the depth or talent necessary to do so in many years

Agree. When you look at all of our NC teams, the offensive line was just as strong, if not stronger, as the defensive line. That was not the case last year and I don't think it will be this year either. Kelly needs to keep his defensive line talent consistent with what he has now, and upgrade his offensive line talent.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/8Y5ulhuEuX8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thanks for posting the video. Watched it with my 16 month old. He just learned "Touchdown, Irish!"

 

[Patulski]

I agree, but don't abandon what you just did well the week prior! He can not allow a defense to dictate his offensive strategy and how he wants to play football. QUOTE]

I disagree with this. Let's take Michigan. They play a lot of man coverage on first and second down trying to stop the run. So, they quickly get 8 men in the box. You don't play into their strategy, you go to your situational strength, which is your passing game against their man coverage. Then, when you burn them, they either adapt to you, or you smoke them. If you can't beat their man coverage, you're in trouble thinking you can run with 8 men in the box. It's a recipe for what you don't want and what they do want: 3rd and long

 

[Patulski]

random question. I just saw an interview with Nick Martin and he said something about the Pistol offense. Did I miss something, is Kelly going to the Pistol offense?

I don't know, but if Atkinson is the go to back, I think he'll be more effective deeper in the backfield. He takes a bit longer to get up to speed because of his size, but that extra distance will have him rocking. The other thing is I do not think he's as effective in those runs that go sideways and then turn up field. I think he'll more effective running straight ahead where he can see what's developing and then accelerate into open space.

 

[Domer4ever]

I doubt there's a single coach out there who could have done better with the talent on hand than Kelly did last season.

Maybe, maybe not. Whatever the case this team was out coached and unprepared to play in that game.

No one disagrees with you here, and it's pretty clear that we're headed for a dynamic "power spread" based on an elite OL and flexible TEs. But this argument started because you blamed Kelly for poor QB development and an insufficient dedication to the run in the past. I think it's pretty clear that he was simply making the best of what he had to work with at the time.

The dedication by Kelly to establish a running game has been sporadic during his ND tenure and he has yet to establish an offensive identity because of his inability to commit to doing anything well offensively. Personnel has been part of the problem, but that does not give him a free pass as far as his game planning is concerned.

Why is it a good idea to attack an undersized military academy and a B1G DL with NFL-caliber players on it in the same fashion?

Because you also have NFL caliber players up front and just came off a week where the running game was dominant. Why change what you do well because of what another team presents defensively? I understand trying to out scheme teams, but don't abandon what you do well and put the burden on a kid making his second career start at QB.

All right, armchair QB. I'm sure you know better than the 3rd best coach in CFB. Call me a Pollyanna if you must. The proof is on the game tape and in the stats. How you can be so certain that we would have been more successful simply by "committing to the run" is beyond me.

So it makes more sense to have your red shirt freshman QB in his second career start, drop back a ton and throw the ball around the yard when he knew the right side of the line was going to get whipped? Yeah that's a recipe for success and we were almost beat that day because it. The fact that Kelly essentially threw in the towel trying to run the football before the game even started is a golden example of why this team has lacked any sort of identity.

Anyway, I'm done debating Purdue with you.

 

[T Town Tommy]

The road to any championship starts up front. The Irish haven't had the depth in recent years in order to effectively compete there - minus the DL from last year's team of course. Personally, I think Kelly has done a helluva job using what he has had to work with. Is it perfect? No. Is it were he wants it to be? No. But a few more solid recruiting classes and he will have that depth he needs to get there.

As far as being outcoached in the title game.... I don't think so. It's like the old saying " It's not just about x's and o's... it also about the Jimmy's and Joe's." And from an outsider's perspective, Kelly has done, and is doing, an incredible job in both areas - coaching and talent elevation.

 

[Booslum31]

The road to any championship starts up front. The Irish haven't had the depth in recent years in order to effectively compete there - minus the DL from last year's team of course. Personally, I think Kelly has done a helluva job using what he has had to work with. Is it perfect? No. Is it were he wants it to be? No. But a few more solid recruiting classes and he will have that depth he needs to get there.

As far as being outcoached in the title game.... I don't think so. It's like the old saying " It's not just about x's and o's... it also about the Jimmy's and Joe's." And from an outsider's perspective, Kelly has done, and is doing, an incredible job in both areas - coaching and talent elevation.

Right on T Town Tommy! Last year was the first year that I wasn't going to puke every time it was third down and we needed a stop. We're almost where we need to be on Defense (Maybe we're already there). But on offense Kelly hasn't had the horses up front to pound the ball down other teams throats. I love the batch of O-Linemen he brought in last year and I love the o-linemen he's got verbal's from this year. He knows what has to be done and he's doing it. I like T Town's reference to Jimmy's and Joe's.

 

[stlnd01]

People talk about "this offense," and "Kelly's offense," and say it doesn't have an "identity."
If we've learned anything the last three years it's that Brian Kelly (unlike, say, Chip Kelly) doesn't have "an offense." He adapts his offense to the players he's got. I'm not sure what else he ought to do.

 

[Meacon Irish]

See the post above. A lot of those rushes were Golson runs. Kelly stated he thought they would have problems running the ball against their d line, so he went to the pass a week after pounding the ball against Navy in a run dominate performance. He quit on the run before the game even began. This is a prime example of his non committal to try and form an offensive identity and what in my opinion we can not see this season for this offense to be a success with Rees.

You're seriously using one game where he adjusted the gameplan to avoid an All-American defensive tackle as an example of him not sticking to a philosophy?

To quote Coach Ditka, "Come ooooooooon, maaaaaaan."

It's quite obvious that we do have an identity with this offense and it's a run-first offense. It's not flashy, by any means, but that's what it is. Not sure how you can't see that after three years.

 

[NDinFL]

So it makes more sense to have your red shirt freshman QB in his second career start, drop back a ton and throw the ball around the yard when he knew the right side of the line was going to get whipped? Yeah that's a recipe for success and we were almost beat that day because it. The fact that Kelly essentially threw in the towel trying to run the football before the game even started is a golden example of why this team has lacked any sort of identity.

Anyway, I'm done debating Purdue with you.

You, sir, are an idiot.

You're debating strategy on an undefeated season

Edit: that same read draw offense was the KEY to us beating Oklahoma

 

[IrishFaninTX]

I agree with that to an extent, but it's also been Kelly's job to develop them and I don't know that he has done a great job of doing so. I also don't think that the offense he runs has not been real supportive to the QB's he has had to work with either. If you have limitations at QB, why not establish and commit to the run instead of trying to throw the ball around the yard and run read option? There is no reason as to why this team can not run the ball down teams throats this year. Hope Kelly see's things the same way.

ND avg just under 200 yards rushing last season. When is the last time ND avg that many yards on the ground? In 2011, ND had a 1000 yard rusher and came close to a 2nd 1000 yard rusher until Jonas got hurt. Kelly hasn't given up on the run. However, there are going to be games where running the ball is not easy. There will be teams who have a stout run defense and makes it damn hard to run on them. How many teams last season had great running backs and ran the ball very well until they came up against ND? I think Pitt and Alabama were the only ones that could run against us pretty well. USC did ok there but struggled passing. Do you think the teams that could not run very well against us were wrong to abandon the run and try to pass more? Or I believe it was MSU who continued trying to run even when it was apparent they were getting nowhere and I think that hurt them. Just because running the ball is what we do best or should be doing with a young, inexperienced QB at the helm, that doesn't mean it's what we should do every game when the defense is preventing it from working. Take what the defense gives you. Purdue's D wasn't giving us sh*t in the run game last September.

 

[NDWorld247]

You, sir, are an idiot.

You're debating strategy on an undefeated season

Edit: that same read draw offense was the KEY to us beating Oklahoma

First, the name calling is really unnecessary. You should apologize.

Second, you've actually done a better job of proving Domer4ever's point about "offensive identity" than he did. We barely ran any zone-read (or "read draw" as you call it) vs. Purdue, yet vs. Oklahoma, it was a big part of the offense. About half way through the season, Kelly took the training wheels off Golson and let him run the offense we all expected when he was hired. The offensive play calling was much different with a lot more true "zone-read" included in the second half of the season. I won't go as far as saying the offense was different, but it certainly evolved from Game 1 to the NCG.

I actually agree with the point we've lacked an offensive identity in the same way some prominent teams around the country have one. I also understand the reasons we have lacked that which have been discussed (i.e. personnel). There's a common theme amongst programs that have a consistent offensive identity (e.g. Oregon, Alabama, Stanford, etc) and that's coaching staff continuity which leads to recruiting for a "system". As has been mentioned, it's taken Kelly time to recruit the personnel he wants for his "system" and, in the meantime, he's done a masterful job (a) adapting to the personnel he inherited and (b) evolving with the personnel he's recruited.

 

[Domer4ever]

You, sir, are an idiot.

You're debating strategy on an undefeated season

Edit: that same read draw offense was the KEY to us beating Oklahoma

And you, sir, are a moron because you are picking one small piece of an entire discussion that you obviously missed. The point wasn't about debating strategy. I used that game as an example of why this team has lacked an offensive identity under Kelly and his sometimes sporadic offensive game planning. Again, I contend this team needs to run some power football this season for this offense to have success with Rees at QB. The personnel is there, but it's on Kelly to make that commitment which in my opinion he has not done to this point in his ND coaching tenure. This also isn't just about running the football, I think most of us would be just as happy to see the offense throw the ball out of the spread with some consistency but that hasn't happened either. This offense really needs something to hang their hat on this season more than ever.

 

[NDinFL]

First, the name calling is really unnecessary. You should apologize.

Second, you've actually done a better job of proving Domer4ever's point about "offensive identity" than he did. We barely ran any zone-read (or "read draw" as you call it) vs. Purdue, yet vs. Oklahoma, it was a big part of the offense. About half way through the season, Kelly took the training wheels off Golson and let him run the offense we all expected when he was hired. The offensive play calling was much different with a lot more true "zone-read" included in the second half of the season. I won't go as far as saying the offense was different, but it certainly evolved from Game 1 to the NCG.

I actually agree with the point we've lacked an offensive identity in the same way some prominent teams around the country have one. I also understand the reasons we have lacked that which have been discussed (i.e. personnel). There's a common theme amongst programs that have a consistent offensive identity (e.g. Oregon, Alabama, Stanford, etc) and that's coaching staff continuity which leads to recruiting for a "system". As has been mentioned, it's taken Kelly time to recruit the personnel he wants for his "system" and, in the meantime, he's done a masterful job (a) adapting to the personnel he inherited and (b) evolving with the personnel he's recruited.

You're absolutely right. "read draw" as I said (inaccurately) or properly called "zone read" IS in fact an "offensive identity" it's how Oregon has made their living for the past 6 years.

I guess my point is, I think we were moving towards being a more zone-read offense, and that kind of got put on hold for this season with the loss of Golson. (Which, in turn would give ND an offensive identity)

 

[NDinFL]

And you, sir, are a moron because you are picking one small piece of an entire discussion that you obviously missed. The point wasn't about debating strategy. I used that game as an example of why this team has lacked an offensive identity under Kelly and his sometimes sporadic offensive game planning. Again, I contend this team needs to run some power football this season for this offense to have success with Rees at QB. The personnel is there, but it's on Kelly to make that commitment which in my opinion he has not done to this point in his ND coaching tenure. This also isn't just about running the football, I think most of us would be just as happy to see the offense throw the ball out of the spread with some consistency but that hasn't happened either. This offense really needs something to hang their hat on this season more than ever.

I read yours and Whiskey's "debate".

MOAR fullbacks!

Harrumph!

oh, and this. NDNation.com | Notre Dame Football and Basketball News Plus

 

[BobD]

2 weeks!

 

[Axl Rose]

Is ND practicing today? Its not on the 1st page schedule, but I thought I heard the practice with full media access would be today.

 

[STLDomer]

Danny Spond has a cane, Will Mahone a boot and crutches......

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Danny Spond has a cane, Will Mahone a boot and crutches......

Jaylon time

 

[STLDomer]

Springmann not dressed w/ a knee brace.

These injuries = no bueno. Hopefully just precautions

 

[china423]

@ChiTribHamilton: #NotreDame DL Tony Springmann not dressed with large brace on left knee.

 

[FLDomer]

Per II: "Headed out to Notre Dame practice, curious to see if the entire defensive line is fit today. Depth may be a serious concern."

 

[STLDomer]

Jaylon time

If Jaylon starts I hope it's because he's that good, not because Danny Spond is hurt

 

[STLDomer]

Last time the media had access there was no tweeting allowed inside practice until it was over so I would expect the same today.