'18 PA QB Phil Jurkovec (Wherever I May Roam Chud)

[arrowryan]

I thought Brendon Clark looked better than PJ when both got in the game this year.

I don't blame him for wanting to leave because he wants to play, but then again I think most here would think that Book has surpassed our expectations at ND.

My biggest blame would be Rees not developing him or did ND swing and miss in the recruiting process?

And people want Rees as our OC....

Good luck PJ!

Prister reported that he didn't put in the work required in the film room to be a starting QB. At what point do we quit blaming the coaching staff and start looking at the player?

And I do want Rees involved in the offense because look at Book's performances and the offense's ability to score when he started calling plays. I don't think that was a coincidence.

 

[Cali_domer]

Prister reported that he didn't put in the work required in the film room to be a starting QB. At what point do we quit blaming the coaching staff and start looking at the player?

And I do want Rees involved in the offense because look at Book's performances and the offense's ability to score when he started calling plays. I don't think that was a coincidence.

When ND actually have a QB that progressed, not regress like BK has proven to be a pro at. QB development is not our strong suit. For example, if BK had a history of QB development and having QB struggle in 2 or 3rd years in his system I believe he would receive grace for QB's not living up to the billing. BK has earned nothing in that area.

 

[BobbyMac]

When ND actually has a QB that progresses, not regress like BK has proven to be a pro at. QB development is not our strong suit. For example, if BK had a history of QB development and having QB struggle in 2 or 3rd years in his system I believe he would recieve grace ffor QB's not living up to the billing. BK has earned nothing in that area.

You need to refine your argument Cali.

ND in the BK era has developed a few QB's above their expectations:

Rees
Kizer
Book

What you should be harping about is the fact BK is now 0-4 in developing elite QB's (as per the recruiting industry). This is the most damaging aspect of the BK era because they need a generational QB to have a chance to win a title. Most generational QB's show up with the stars and keep developing, not transfer in as a former sub 4*... unicorns like Joe Burrow or Baker Mayfield.

 

[Cali_domer]

You need to refine your argument Cali.

ND in the BK era has developed a few QB's above their expectations:

Rees
Kizer
Book

What you should be harping about is the fact BK is now 0-4 in developing elite QB's (as per the recruiting industry). This is the most damaging aspect of the BK era because they need a generational QB to have a chance to win a title. Most generational QB's show up with the stars and keep developing, not transfer in as a former sub 4*... unicorns like Joe Burrow or Baker Mayfield.

Did they improve year to year? Or did they plateau or regress. Kizer was a 4 star recruit. Book and Rees have not been great or really that good.

 

[BGIF]

Was he likely to land somewhere better than BC regardless though? A decent P5 program with an open QB position and a new coaching staff (clean slate for all). Wasn't like he was going to Georgia or Oregon and take their job. Also a good school, if he cares about the academics part.
Seems like a good match all around, and the girl at the school up the street is a bonus.

So let me see if I got this right.

Phil wants to excel as a QB at a big time program but he couldn't commit to watching enough film to improve his mind for big time football and to compete against less talented QB competition on his team.

Phil wants to play for a big time program so he left one that has double digit win seasons for 3 straight years for one that has had 3 double digit win seasons in 79 years.

Phil want to play for a big time program so he left one that competes for the Top 10 for one that hopes for the Top 50.

Phil did without at ND but didn't have time for film but now at BC with "the girl at the school up the street", he'll have time and the commitment to watch film.


Perfectly logical.


Did Phil use brick4956 as a consultant for his decision making?

Did Phil really learn how to watch film from Koon?

 

[General Colon Bowel]

You need to refine your argument Cali.

ND in the BK era has developed a few QB's above their expectations:

Rees
Kizer
Book

What you should be harping about is the fact BK is now 0-4 in developing elite QB's (as per the recruiting industry). This is the most damaging aspect of the BK era because they need a generational QB to have a chance to win a title. Most generational QB's show up with the stars and keep developing, not transfer in as a former sub 4*... unicorns like Joe Burrow or Baker Mayfield.

This just isn't true though. Top qbs are consistently not panning out at the school they originally sign with. It's not just a BK thing, it's happening across college football:

Just looking at Jurkovec's peers in the 2018 class. Here's the top 12 Qbs:
1 - Lawrence - Slam dunk, generational talent
2 - Justin Fields - transferred, couldn't beat out Fromm
3 - JT Daniels - likely lost job to walk-on Slovis.
4 - Dorian Thompson-Robinson - mediocre starter on 4-8 team
5 - Justin Rogers - transferring, beat out by lower rated, younger Max Duggan
6 - Tanner McKee - on a two year mission
7 - Matt Corral - staying, lost qb battle to non-top 300 true freshman QB
8 - Jarren Williams - put into transfer portal once, stayed, split time with Nkosi Perry, medicore performance
9 - Phil - transferring to BC
10 - Emory Jones - sitting behind walk-on Kyle Trask
11 - Colson Yankoff - transferred to UCLA
12 - Jacob Sirmon - entered transfer portal, then changed mind

During BK's tenure there have been 26 QBs who have finished top 5 in Heisman voting, and only 8 of them were Top 300 QBs who were still playing at their original school

Great QBs come from everywhere, and top rated QBs bust and transfer all the time

 

[irishandy]

Prister reported that he didn't put in the work required in the film room to be a starting QB. At what point do we quit blaming the coaching staff and start looking at the player?

And I do want Rees involved in the offense because look at Book's performances and the offense's ability to score when he started calling plays. I don't think that was a coincidence.

I didn't fully blame the coaching staff for the development of Jurkovec, if he didn't want to watch film that's on him and not the coaching staff. I never saw any improvement from his freshman to sophomore year.

I am glad you want Rees involved in the offense...I don't, they need to bring in new blood.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

When ND actually have a QB that progressed, not regress like BK has proven to be a pro at. QB development is not our strong suit. For example, if BK had a history of QB development and having QB struggle in 2 or 3rd years in his system I believe he would receive grace for QB's not living up to the billing. BK has earned nothing in that area.

I would say Book progressed from the start of the season to where he was at the end of the season. He started to step up in the pocket, hang in the pocket and go through his progressions and also let it rip down field to his plays maker at the end of the season. So yes I would say Book progressed. There is this thing called a sophomore slump, I know Book is not a sophomore, but it was his second year starting. At that point opponents had 10+ games of tape on Book to see his tendency. Like any good pitcher by the end of the season Book made the adjustments to his game to combat the deficiencies seen on tape.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[stlnd01]

So let me see if I got this right.

Phil wants to excel as a QB at a big time program but he couldn't commit to watching enough film to improve his mind for big time football and to compete against less talented QB competition on his team.

Phil wants to play for a big time program so he left one that has double digit win seasons for 3 straight years for one that has had 3 double digit win seasons in 79 years.

Phil want to play for a big time program so he left one that competes for the Top 10 for one that hopes for the Top 50.

Phil did without at ND but didn't have time for film but now at BC with "the girl at the school up the street", he'll have time and the commitment to watch film.


Perfectly logical.

Oh I agree with you that he's making a mistake. If Phil "wants to play for a big time program" his best bet was to put his head down, do the work, and play his way into being QB1 at Notre Dame, if not in 2020 than in '21. Obviously Phil felt otherwise.
My only point was that if he's transferring, BC is as good a place to land as any. It would appear he doesn't have the sand to compete and win the job at Georgia or Oregon, but he may well at BC. Good school. New staff. Reasonably competitive mid-level ACC program.
Someone suggested he's just following his girl, but I think (hope?) there's more to it for him than that.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I mean, if his goal is to start and bolster his draft stock, seemed growingly apparent that it wasn't going to happen here with Book returning and Clark seemingly ready to pass him up (if he hadn't already).

BC, Fredo status aside, is a great school to attend and if he can start, more power to him. His girl is at BU and is athletic, with no other info, I would assume she is a keeper.

I wasn't knocking his choice of BC at all. I was half joking that being a college kid in Indiana with a girlfriend in Boston is, well, counterproductive.

 

[Irish YJ]

I wish PJ all the success in the world.
Hopefully he breaks the trend of recent ND QB transfers.

 

[IrishLax]

It's a specious argument to blame Kelly for quarterback transfers/problems when it is commonplace at literally every school. There have even been many recent articles about this trend, especially among highly rated QB. I'm not going to waste everybody's time going through the list of transfers at virtually every top school -- Ohio State, Clemson, Georgia, etc. -- once someone wins the job and there isn't a clear path to playing time.

No QB that has transferred from Notre Dame has ended up being an NFL level player. So that should put to bed the idea that Kelly plays the "worse" QB causing the "better" QB to transfer. Does Jurkovec have more physical upside than Book? Sure. Do I think this is a "Joe Schmidt" situation as many Irish fans suggest? Abso-f*cking-lutely not. And frankly, you have to be blind or stupid to say something like that.

Some uncomfortable facts for Kelly/Rees/Book haters:
1. Jurkovec has been inconsistent on and off the field since arriving at Notre Dame. He has not lived up to expectations, but shows glimpses of elite talent. There is no guarantee he would've even been the #2 QB next year.
2. Rees is probably in the top 1% of "player's coaches" in America. If you can't get along with him, its time to look inside not outside.
3. Most of the slanted reporting on this is from one source. And you all know how we (and everyone on the ND beat) feels about that source.

I could definitely see Jurkovec being successful at BC because he has always played better in games than he has in practice. I think he has more potential than any other Kelly-era QB transfer. You can blame Kelly for recruiting the player but that's it. Guys like Kiel, Jurkovec, etc. moving on when they lose their path to playing is college football 101. Don't blame Book for being better than Jurkovec, don't blame Kelly for playing the best player, and don't blame Rees for the fact that Jurkovec's personal choices.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Did they improve year to year? Or did they plateau or regress. Kizer was a 4 star recruit. Book and Rees have not been great or really that good.

Rees managed to start and was solid for ND for multiple seasons. This is a guy who was a mid-major talent QB at best. We maximized his capabilities and that's not even up for debate.

Book didn't have a technical regression where you can point to coaching. Perhaps the attrition re: Long played a part in his first half of 2019 where he was hesitant to take chances, but he was a better QB than in 2018. Him being more aggressive and trusting his pass protection, along with a much better RB corp, should pay major dividends in him having his best season in '20.

You're forgetting one major factor when establishing a conclusion that QB's at ND regress: It's not a one way street. Going into year 2, defensive coordinators now have film on those guys and can pinpoint their tendencies and better scheme against them. This is why Cardale Jones looked like the second coming of Cam Newton in 2014, but then looked like the second coming of Logan Thomas in 2015.

 

[Irish#1]

When ND actually have a QB that progressed, not regress like BK has proven to be a pro at. QB development is not our strong suit. For example, if BK had a history of QB development and having QB struggle in 2 or 3rd years in his system I believe he would receive grace for QB's not living up to the billing. BK has earned nothing in that area.

You need to refine your argument Cali.

ND in the BK era has developed a few QB's above their expectations:

Rees
Kizer
Book

What you should be harping about is the fact BK is now 0-4 in developing elite QB's (as per the recruiting industry). This is the most damaging aspect of the BK era because they need a generational QB to have a chance to win a title. Most generational QB's show up with the stars and keep developing, not transfer in as a former sub 4*... unicorns like Joe Burrow or Baker Mayfield.

Did they improve year to year? Or did they plateau or regress. Kizer was a 4 star recruit. Book and Rees have not been great or really that good.

If a kid doesn't put in the extra time to improve, that's not on the coaching staff. The staff can only require him to spend so many hours per week at FB, but I'd be willing to bet they strongly suggested he spend more free time doing so.

Some uncomfortable facts for Kelly/Rees/Book haters:
1. Jurkovec has been inconsistent on and off the field since arriving at Notre Dame. He has not lived up to expectations, but shows glimpses of elite talent. There is no guarantee he would've even been the #2 QB next year.

For those blaming BK and staff, the"glimpses" are what they are hanging their hat on. BK gave a major clue of what was happening when Clark got the majority of mop up minutes over Phil. in that game.

 

[gkIrish]

It's a specious argument to blame Kelly for quarterback transfers/problems when it is commonplace at literally every school. There have even been many recent articles about this trend, especially among highly rated QB. I'm not going to waste everybody's time going through the list of transfers at virtually every top school -- Ohio State, Clemson, Georgia, etc. -- once someone wins the job and there isn't a clear path to playing time.

No QB that has transferred from Notre Dame has ended up being an NFL level player. So that should put to bed the idea that Kelly plays the "worse" QB causing the "better" QB to transfer. Does Jurkovec have more physical upside than Book? Sure. Do I think this is a "Joe Schmidt" situation as many Irish fans suggest? Abso-f*cking-lutely not. And frankly, you have to be blind or stupid to say something like that.

Some uncomfortable facts for Kelly/Rees/Book haters:
1. Jurkovec has been inconsistent on and off the field since arriving at Notre Dame. He has not lived up to expectations, but shows glimpses of elite talent. There is no guarantee he would've even been the #2 QB next year.
2. Rees is probably in the top 1% of "player's coaches" in America. If you can't get along with him, its time to look inside not outside.
3. Most of the slanted reporting on this is from one source. And you all know how we (and everyone on the ND beat) feels about that source.

I could definitely see Jurkovec being successful at BC because he has always played better in games than he has in practice. I think he has more potential than any other Kelly-era QB transfer. You can blame Kelly for recruiting the player but that's it. Guys like Kiel, Jurkovec, etc. moving on when they lose their path to playing is college football 101. Don't blame Book for being better than Jurkovec, don't blame Kelly for playing the best player, and don't blame Rees for the fact that Jurkovec's personal choices.

If I started painting something using the best quality materials and then gave that incomplete painting to a professional artist they might be able to finish it and make it look okay but it's not going to end up in the Louvre.

So if a coaching staff does a poor job developing a player for 2-3 years and said player transfers, what are the odds that player is going to magically become an NFL level player?

I'm not saying that's what happened here but I don't think the relative lack of success of transferring QBs is proof that BK has never made a QB mistake.

 

[NDdomer2]

If I started painting something using the best quality materials and then gave that incomplete painting to a professional artist they might be able to finish it and make it look okay but it's not going to end up in the Louvre.

So if a coaching staff does a poor job developing a player for 2-3 years and said player transfers, what are the odds that player is going to magically become an NFL level player?

I'm not saying that's what happened here but I don't think the relative lack of success of transferring QBs is proof that BK has never made a QB mistake.

On the other side I would say ND/Kelly got way more out of Golson, Zaire, wimbush than their second stops did.

Maybe Kelly maximized those players.

 

[Crazy Balki]

This whole Kelly QB regression tinfoil narrative gets more tiresome every time it's brought up.

If it was consistently the same thing happening that caused stagnation and it was coachable, then sure.

Crist was physically destroyed by 2011 after 2 catastrophic knee injuries and was not a fit for Kelly's offense in the first place.

Rees maximized his skill, but the issue was that only went so far.

Golson was an absolute head case, who would make really risky plays and practically blow off any instruction. There was no debate that Golson was an infinitely more dynamic QB in '14 compared to his first year, but he also was far more careless and mentally way too inconsistent.

Zaire was a running QB who lost a lot of athleticism when he broke his ankle.

Kizer was a Diet Golson. Not quite that level of head case, but not a good leader and a me-first guy. He's also a prime example of a guy who took advantage of all the talent around him one year, then lost it all the next year.

Wimbush was incapable of going through progressions and seeing the field. His ability to anticipate was woeful, and there's no coaching in that. Some have it, some don't.

Book's story remains to be seen, but he was way too conservative, knowing much of the offense's success fell on him last year. In 2018, he had a good safety net in Dexter, but that no longer existed. DC's also had film on him now. Thankfully, seems like Book has turned a corner in that regard and is progressing.

 

[gkIrish]

On the other side I would say ND/Kelly got way more out of Golson, Zaire, wimbush than their second stops did.

Maybe Kelly maximized those players.

I think everyone agrees that BK should get credit for getting 4 star production from 3 star talents.

What many of us are frustrated with is the inability to get elite production from the elite talents. It's in a large part what holds us back from being a consistent playoff contender and championship caliber team.

 

[stlnd01]

Technical and skills development aside, I think it's really, really hard to be QB1 at Notre Dame, from the expectations/pressure/distractions side of things. You have to be really tough mentally. I know you could say that about most big-time programs but I think it's especially true at ours. And not everyone is cut out for it.

I'm starting to think that the three-stars who show up with a chip on their shoulder, who haven't been told they're the greatest QB in the world since the age of six, might be more cut out for it than most.

 

[gkIrish]

Technical and skills development aside, I think it's really, really hard to be QB1 at Notre Dame, from the expectations/pressure/distractions side of things. You have to be really tough mentally. I know you could say that about most big-time programs but I think it's especially true at ours. And not everyone is cut out for it.

I'm starting to think that the three-stars who show up with a chip on their shoulder, who haven't been told they're the greatest QB in the world since the age of six, might be more cut out for it than most.

Brady Quinn was a top 5 high school quarterback and played like one in college.

Jimmy Clausen was the #1 QB in high school and played at an elite level in college.

Going further back, Joe Montana was a High School All-American and played at an elite level. I think Rick Mirer was the #1 high school QB, too. Don't forget Ron Powlus who had injury problems. Steve Beurlein, Tony Rice...etc.

I don't think there is any reason to think Notre Dame is inherently tougher for great QBs.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I think everyone agrees that BK should get credit for getting 4 star production from 3 star talents.

What many of us are frustrated with is the inability to get elite production from the elite talents. It's in a large part what holds us back from being a consistent playoff contender and championship caliber team.

Well, part of it is the lack of elite talents. Just looking at 247 position rankings (both Pro and Dual are combined) here are the ND guys:

2010: #16 - Hendrix
2011: #13 - Golson
2012: #2 - Kiel
2013: #13 - Zaire
2014: #19 - Kizer
2015: #5 - Wimbush
2016: #35 - Book
2017: #18 - Davis
2018: #9 - Jurkovec
2019: #36 - Clark
2020: #12 - Pyne

Under Kelly, ND has only signed one of the top ten quarterbacks three times.

 

[IrishLion]

I think everyone agrees that BK should get credit for getting 4 star production from 3 star talents.

What many of us are frustrated with is the inability to get elite production from the elite talents.

Who would you classify as elite talents? Not arguing, genuinely don't know who you consider to have been his elite QB recruits lol.

I'd argue that they got elite production from Wimbush in '17, when you consider his limitations as a passer. Back-breaking runs complemented by deep throws when appropriate in big spots. That seems good. When they had to put more on his plate in '18, his accuracy was an insurmountable obstacle... can you blame BK for that? I wouldn't, but I don't know the intricacies of trying to coach a QB with improved mechanics to try and get better arm accuracy out of them.

They got elite production from Kizer in '15, but the whole team regressed in '16

Every other chance to develop and get elite production from elite prospects was lost, and not because of anything BK could control (outside of maybe '16, where the shortfalls of the team come back to BK, but again, that's less about Kizer and more about the shitty defense).

Kiel - elite talent, left after a year because of Golson (whoops!)

Zaire - elite talent, broke his ankle once he was finally THE guy, got supplanted by a guy that gave the team elite production

Wimbush - above

Jurkovec - do we blame BK that he couldn't beat out Book? I guess that depends on whether you think the QB coach was willingly ignoring him, or if you believe that Phil wasn't committed to doing what he needed to do off the field as a QB.

Golson was an elite physical talent, but not an elite 'talent' according to recruiting. He was a borderline 3/4-star guy. Even if you considered him elite for this argument, though, I don't think you can blame his '14 issues on BK when he got himself kicked off campus for '13.

 

[gkIrish]

Well, part of it is the lack of elite talents. Just looking at 247 position rankings (both Pro and Dual are combined) here are the ND guys:

2010: #16 - Hendrix
2011: #13 - Golson
2012: #2 - Kiel
2013: #13 - Zaire
2014: #19 - Kizer
2015: #5 - Wimbush
2016: #35 - Book
2017: #18 - Davis
2018: #9 - Jurkovec
2019: #36 - Clark
2020: #12 - Pyne

Under Kelly, ND has only signed one of the top ten quarterbacks three times.

That's all part of the problem. Lack of recruitment of elite talents. Lack of development of elite talents when you get them. And I would actually consider Golson an elite talent. His rankings didn't reflect his talent for various reasons.

 

[gkIrish]

Who would you classify as elite talents? Not arguing, genuinely don't know who you consider to have been his elite QB recruits lol.

See my previous post but mainly PJ, Kiel, Golson, Wimbush. Zaire a little bit outside that tier.

I'd argue that they got elite production from Wimbush in '17, when you consider his limitations as a passer. Back-breaking runs complemented by deep throws when appropriate in big spots. That seems good. When they had to put more on his plate in '18, his accuracy was an insurmountable obstacle... can you blame BK for that? I wouldn't, but I don't know the intricacies of trying to coach a QB with improved mechanics to try and get better arm accuracy out of them.

There are examples of elite production but they are essentially all followed by significant regression. That is a big red flag.

They got elite production from Kizer in '15, but the whole team regressed in '16

Again, regression could be a coaching problem. We don't really know for sure.

Every other chance to develop and get elite production from elite prospects was lost, and not because of anything BK could control (outside of maybe '16, where the shortfalls of the team come back to BK, but again, that's less about Kizer and more about the shitty defense).

Kiel - elite talent, left after a year because of Golson (whoops!)

Zaire - elite talent, broke his ankle once he was finally THE guy, got supplanted by a guy that gave the team elite production

Wimbush - above

Jurkovec - do we blame BK that he couldn't beat out Book? I guess that depends on whether you think the QB coach was willingly ignoring him, or if you believe that Phil wasn't committed to doing what he needed to do off the field as a QB.

Golson was an elite physical talent, but not an elite 'talent' according to recruiting. He was a borderline 3/4-star guy. Even if you considered him elite for this argument, though, I don't think you can blame his '14 issues on BK when he got himself kicked off campus for '13.

We are never going to know whether the player or the coach was ultimately at fault. We almost always only hear the coach's side of things from our insiders with connections to the program. It just concerns me that we basically don't know at this point whether the staff is even capable of recruiting and retaining an elite talent and having that player perform at an elite level for at least 2 seasons. After 10 years I would have hoped we had 1 example of that already. If Buchner doesn't work out who are we going to blame?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Some uncomfortable facts for Kelly/Rees/Book haters:
1. Jurkovec has been inconsistent on and off the field since arriving at Notre Dame. He has not lived up to expectations, but shows glimpses of elite talent. There is no guarantee he would've even been the #2 QB next year.
2. Rees is probably in the top 1% of "player's coaches" in America. If you can't get along with him, its time to look inside not outside.
3. Most of the slanted reporting on this is from one source. And you all know how we (and everyone on the ND beat) feels about that source.

At what point will he have burned so many bridges that he just can't do this job anymore?

 

[IrishLax]

If I started painting something using the best quality materials and then gave that incomplete painting to a professional artist they might be able to finish it and make it look okay but it's not going to end up in the Louvre.

So if a coaching staff does a poor job developing a player for 2-3 years and said player transfers, what are the odds that player is going to magically become an NFL level player?

I'm not saying that's what happened here but I don't think the relative lack of success of transferring QBs is proof that BK has never made a QB mistake.

IMO, this is begging the question. You have an implied premise in here that 2 years of "bad development" can ruin a player that otherwise has the ability to be an NFL quality player. What we've seen repeatedly in the pros and in college is the opposite -- a coaching/scheme change can immediately cause a player to blossom... or regress or stay the same. I have a hard time believing that the coaching at ND could be SO BAD that it could break a player.

Crist - People blamed Kelly for him not playing like a "5 star", then he can't even hold down the job at Kansas with Weis coaching him.
Rees - Maximized ability/production.
Golson - Self-sabotaged himself at ND, progressed from his first year as a starter to his last. Transferred, ended up regressing and failing at FSU.
Zaire - Hard to say what could've/would've happened without injury. But he was an unmitigated disaster at Florida.
Kizer - mediocre recruit, coached up so well that despite major flaws to his game he got drafted in the 2nd round.
Wimbush - inconsistent with no clear progression, transfer, couldn't beat out a bad true frosh QB at UCF. This is the one player so far where it's reasonable to ask if scheme/coaching held him back from his potential.
Book - drastically exceeding expectations.

Again, you can blame Kelly for not recruiting good QBs. You cannot make the case that he and his QB coaches (Rees, Sanford, LaFleur, etc.) are responsible for making "good" players "bad". If that was the case, these transfers wouldn't all suck worse at their new destination.

 

[Irish#1]

I think everyone agrees that BK should get credit for getting 4 star production from 3 star talents.

What many of us are frustrated with is the inability to get elite production from the elite talents. It's in a large part what holds us back from being a consistent playoff contender and championship caliber team.

Who's to say the elite talent didn't peak in HS? If you have the physical tools in HS, you don't have to the mental tools to plow through HS talent.

Brady Quinn was a top 5 high school quarterback and played like one in college.

Jimmy Clausen was the #1 QB in high school and played at an elite level in college.

Going further back, Joe Montana was a High School All-American and played at an elite level. I think Rick Mirer was the #1 high school QB, too. Don't forget Ron Powlus who had injury problems. Steve Beurlein, Tony Rice...etc.

I don't think there is any reason to think Notre Dame is inherently tougher for great QBs.

Joe languished on the bench as third string before injuries got him his opportunity.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

At what point will he have burned so many bridges that he just can't do this job anymore?

If he doesn't have inside sources now then what is there to lose? If the other pubs are all trying to protect their lines of communication with the program then there's space for somebody who just trashes it repeatedly. The fact that he writes like an internet troll isn't repellant to the internet troll set.

 

[gkIrish]

IMO, this is begging the question. You have an implied premise in here that 2 years of "bad development" can ruin a player that otherwise has the ability to be an NFL quality player. What we've seen repeatedly in the pros and in college is the opposite -- a coaching/scheme change can immediately cause a player to blossom... or regress or stay the same. I have a hard time believing that the coaching at ND could be SO BAD that it could break a player.

Crist - People blamed Kelly for him not playing like a "5 star", then he can't even hold down the job at Kansas with Weis coaching him.
Rees - Maximized ability/production.
Golson - Self-sabotaged himself at ND, progressed from his first year as a starter to his last. Transferred, ended up regressing and failing at FSU.
Zaire - Hard to say what could've/would've happened without injury. But he was an unmitigated disaster at Florida.
Kizer - mediocre recruit, coached up so well that despite major flaws to his game he got drafted in the 2nd round.
Wimbush - inconsistent with no clear progression, transfer, couldn't beat out a bad true frosh QB at UCF. This is the one player so far where it's reasonable to ask if scheme/coaching held him back from his potential.
Book - drastically exceeding expectations.

Again, you can blame Kelly for not recruiting good QBs. You cannot make the case that he and his QB coaches (Rees, Sanford, LaFleur, etc.) are responsible for making "good" players "bad". If that was the case, these transfers wouldn't all suck worse at their new destination.

It's not necessarily that someone did a bad job coaching someone. Just changing schools and systems is not easy. Joe Burrow and LSU did a fine job changing his career trajectory so now everything thinks it's simple but there are many other examples of failed transfers. It's why many people on this board including me think it's usually a terrible idea to transfer if you have to sit out the year.

BTW Kiel was actually pretty good after he left ND. Surround him with better talent I think he could have had a decent shot to be a very good college QB/NFL prospect.

The point is that we have a few examples of players leaving and not getting any better. I don't view that as proof of anything one way or the other. I am mostly concerned with why we can't recruit an elite QB and get him to perform at an elite level for 2+ years. The PJ situation is just a medium to vent this frustration. I don't know who is to blame for it but it's just a problem that this seems to be an issue with the program.

 

[gkIrish]

Who's to say the elite talent didn't peak in HS? If you have the physical tools in HS, you don't have to the mental tools to plow through HS talent.



Joe languished on the bench as third string before injuries got him his opportunity.

I was not around back then but the fact that he was third string to start the 1977 season after he was injured the previous season seems to be an error in judgment by the coaches rather than a Joe Montana (arguably best QB of all time) problem, no?