'15 NJ QB Brandon Wimbush (Notre Dame Signed NLI)

[OchoShayneO]

Yesterday in the gameday thread every one was going nuts on Chip Long as the worst OC ever in the history of everything anywhere.

Once Book took over that talk pretty much stopped on a dime.

I have somewhat defended Long all season when it comes to play calling. IMO the failure in play calling lays more on BW's inability to execute than the actual play calling.

Case in point, with 40 seconds left in the first quarter, 3rd and 15...Long calls a RO run to the right, which was overloaded. At the hand off the defensive crashes down leaving the entire left side of the open open for BW to take off for what could have been a 30-40 yd gain.

What does he do, he completes the hand off to adams who is immediately hit by 3 defenders and a 4 yd loss.

Watch the play. BW has zero business being a P5 QB.

Same type of thing as the flea flicker. ESB was wide open.

 

[IrishLax]

Yesterday in the gameday thread every one was going nuts on Chip Long as the worst OC ever in the history of everything anywhere.

Once Book took over that talk pretty much stopped on a dime.

I have somewhat defended Long all season when it comes to play calling. IMO the failure in play calling lays more on BW's inability to execute than the actual play calling.

Case in point, with 40 seconds left in the first quarter, 3rd and 15...Long calls a RO run to the right, which was overloaded. At the hand off the defensive crashes down leaving the entire left side of the open open for BW to take off for what could have been a 30-40 yd gain.

What does he do, he completes the hand off to adams who is immediately hit by 3 defenders and a 4 yd loss.

Watch the play. BW has zero business being a P5 QB.

Well, this narrative would hold a lot more water if he was calling similar stuff for both players and Book simply executed it better.

4th and 1 on first drive... Long calls slow developing running play. He gets rightfully ripped.

Next drive... again moving the ball... kills the drive with a trick play. Called three trick plays, all of which failed (although the flea flicker could've been completed to EQ as the secondary read).

Went uptempo basically never, very QB designed runs or draws, very few vertical passes to back off the defense even after connecting on the first one. Just called a bunch of dumb stuff AND Wimbush failed to execute on some of the few opportunities he had.

Book comes in, and they call a 100% different game. Get Dex two touches on a drive (finally) that leads to a TD. Other TD comes from throwing vertical. Lots of misdirection, lots of QB bootlegs and such.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

Well, this narrative would hold a lot more water if he was calling similar stuff for both players and Book simply executed it better.

4th and 1 on first drive... Long calls slow developing running play. He gets rightfully ripped.

Next drive... again moving the ball... kills the drive with a trick play. Called three trick plays, all of which failed (although the flea flicker could've been completed to EQ as the secondary read).

Went uptempo basically never, very QB designed runs or draws, very few vertical passes to back off the defense even after connecting on the first one. Just called a bunch of dumb stuff AND Wimbush failed to execute on some of the few opportunities he had.

Book comes in, and they call a 100% different game. Get Dex two touches on a drive (finally) that leads to a TD. Other TD comes from throwing vertical. Lots of misdirection, lots of QB bootlegs and such.

This is where I'm at. I think Long was bad at calling plays when Wimbush was in, but I also think he can be good when he has someone else at QB where he can run his own offense and not be hamstrung by a QB who can't complete easy passes.

If it were me, I wouldn't try to tailor the offense to any of the QBs for next year. I would implement my system and see who can run it the best. I normally don't like that approach, but I think Long is much more of a system driven guy than a guy who can figure out the best way to use the guys he has and I think his offensive system can be very effective.

 

[snoopdog]

Well, this narrative would hold a lot more water if he was calling similar stuff for both players and Book simply executed it better.

4th and 1 on first drive... Long calls slow developing running play. He gets rightfully ripped.

Next drive... again moving the ball... kills the drive with a trick play. Called three trick plays, all of which failed (although the flea flicker could've been completed to EQ as the secondary read).

Went uptempo basically never, very QB designed runs or draws, very few vertical passes to back off the defense even after connecting on the first one. Just called a bunch of dumb stuff AND Wimbush failed to execute on some of the few opportunities he had.

Book comes in, and they call a 100% different game. Get Dex two touches on a drive (finally) that leads to a TD. Other TD comes from throwing vertical. Lots of misdirection, lots of QB bootlegs and such.

I disagree.

Wimbush running the RPO is the problem. Not the play calling. He doesn't/can't make the right read. The ESB play being just one example of literally dozens, or hundreds if you count the entire season.

Also the reason why the game is "100%" different under Book is, he makes better reads and throws a better pass.

Wimbush should have been running hard from the start of yesterdays game, but to often he incorrectly read the defence and kept handing it off to Adam's for little gain.

His decisions on throws were as bad as the throws themselves with the exception of the opening play.

I am agnostic on Long, but he isn't as big a problem as BW is in run the Offense

 

[Rack Em]

I disagree.

Wimbush running the RPO is the problem. Not the play calling. He doesn't/can't make the right read. The ESB play being just one example of literally dozens, or hundreds if you count the entire season.

Also the reason why the game is "100%" different under Book is, he makes better reads and throws a better pass.

Wimbush should have been running hard from the start of yesterdays game, but to often he incorrectly read the defence and kept handing it off to Adam's for little gain.

His decisions on throws were as bad as the throws themselves with the exception of the opening play.

I am agnostic on Long, but he isn't as big a problem as BW is in run the Offense

I'm pretty sure some, if not most, of the RPOs we run aren't true RPOs. They're RB runs that are designed to look like an RPO.

I could be way wrong, so someone correct me if so.

 

[RDU Irish]

At this point, I'm just curious what throw Wimbush is good at? Seems ironic our third string WR (four star) makes an amazing catch to win the game but all season our WRs were blamed for dropping everything and not being able to get open.

Which begs the question of which pass play Long was supposed to have confidence in? And if every staff on the planet knows the guy can't pass with any consistency they JUST MIGHT forget about defending the P part of that RPO.

 

[NDohio]

Well, this narrative would hold a lot more water if he was calling similar stuff for both players and Book simply executed it better.

4th and 1 on first drive... Long calls slow developing running play. He gets rightfully ripped.

Next drive... again moving the ball... kills the drive with a trick play. Called three trick plays, all of which failed (although the flea flicker could've been completed to EQ as the secondary read).

Went uptempo basically never, very QB designed runs or draws, very few vertical passes to back off the defense even after connecting on the first one. Just called a bunch of dumb stuff AND Wimbush failed to execute on some of the few opportunities he had.

Book comes in, and they call a 100% different game. Get Dex two touches on a drive (finally) that leads to a TD. Other TD comes from throwing vertical. Lots of misdirection, lots of QB bootlegs and such.

Not sure how an offensive coordinator is supposed to call a game when he has zero confidence in the QB making the simplest reads/passes.

 

[BeatSC]

Yesterday in the gameday thread every one was going nuts on Chip Long as the worst OC ever in the history of everything anywhere.

Once Book took over that talk pretty much stopped on a dime.

I have somewhat defended Long all season when it comes to play calling. IMO the failure in play calling lays more on BW's inability to execute than the actual play calling.

Case in point, with 40 seconds left in the first quarter, 3rd and 15...Long calls a RO run to the right, which was overloaded. At the hand off the defensive crashes down leaving the entire left side of the open open for BW to take off for what could have been a 30-40 yd gain.

What does he do, he completes the hand off to adams who is immediately hit by 3 defenders and a 4 yd loss.

Watch the play. BW has zero business being a P5 QB.

Have to agree with a lot of this especially the BW incompetence at making the right RO read. We could have easily beat Georgia is he made the right read just a handful of times. You can also threw in the bomb he threw to Boykin down the left sideline into double coverage while ESB was wide open 15-20 yards down the same sideline. Just makes poor decisions and not sure how to fix that. HE should be thinking run the ball on every drop back and every read option unless someone is WIDE open or someone of D is RIGHT in front of him. I think we need to install some Wildcat with him running it next year and that will be his primary role unless he completely changes positions.

 

[IrishLax]

I disagree.

Wimbush running the RPO is the problem. Not the play calling. He doesn't/can't make the right read. The ESB play being just one example of literally dozens, or hundreds if you count the entire season.

Which plays are the "RPOs" that he ran incorrectly?

If you're referring to zone reads... where there is a choice to hand it off or keep it himself, but not a pass option.... I agree somewhat. You're not acknowledging the times he did make big plays on those, and all the times LSU had both the keep and hand off covered because it was a dumb play call. However, the bigger issue is that Long called way too many of those slow developing zone read plays (and many of them are actually pre-determined gives or keeps NOT reads of any sort) over the last few games despite opposing defenses being completely ready for them.

ESB play I was referring to had nothing to do with an "RPO". And I don't think we ran "hundreds" of RPOs this season.

Also the reason why the game is "100%" different under Book is, he makes better reads and throws a better pass.

That might explain why "execution" is better but has nothing to do with the plays being called. Long can chose to call whatever he wants for whoever is under center.

Wimbush should have been running hard from the start of yesterdays game, but to often he incorrectly read the defence and kept handing it off to Adam's for little gain.

Most of those are actually pre-determined designed handoffs not true zone reads.

His decisions on throws were as bad as the throws themselves with the exception of the opening play.

I am agnostic on Long, but he isn't as big a problem as BW is in run the Offense

Wimbush being a poor passer -- which he is -- needs to be divorced from the fact that Chip Long has also sucked as a play caller for much of the season. Both can be true. Some of the shit he has schemed up is just asinine

Long had shaky game plans for the first quarter of the season, then a couple good games, then called a poor game with Book at QB against UNC, then three games of excellent game plans, and then did a piss poor job for the last 4 games of the year. It was a roller coaster of him trying different things. He was not consistently good or bad.

Book is a better thrower of the football than Wimbush. Book is much better on timing routes and short passes than Wimbush. Long did not call the same plays for Wimbush and Book against LSU. Long has been extremely poor from a game plan/play calling standpoint for the last four games of the season. All of these can be true.

 

[stlnd01]

Not sure how an offensive coordinator is supposed to call a game when he has zero confidence in the QB making the simplest reads/passes.

This. Wimbush can not reliably complete a simple seven-yard out, or a wheel route to an RB, or even a bubble screen. I don’t know how you run an offense when you can’t execute those kind of plays.

I’m not giving up on Wimbush because he’s got all the tools to be truly great, if he can just put it together upstairs. But at this point he’s going to have to win the job back.

 

[BeatSC]

I think if Book gets the reps and more attention/coaching up he can be our McSorely/Mayfiled clone albeit maybe a poor man's version. Our WRs were unkind to Wimbush completion % this year and he should have finished around 54% which is still pretty schitty but not far off Kizers. I think we should all go back and watch the BG game to see the variety of throws that Book was making. I do feel somewhat bad for Wimbush though. I thought he was truly going to be our best QB in recent memory. I think we thought Christ would too but that was a bust. See him at an ND bar in Hermosa Beach for some of the games.

 

[IrishLax]

Not sure how an offensive coordinator is supposed to call a game when he has zero confidence in the QB making the simplest reads/passes.

Start by calling the plays he is good at like he did against USC/NC State/Wake... tempo, vertical passes, designed QB runs, simplified decisions.

Believe it or not, Wimbush finished the year with a top 20 QBR. There's this idea that Wimbush totally sucked all year and was never capable of being productive. From the point he got hurt against Wake Forest on forward we started doing a lot of dumb stuff on offense AND Wimbush played bad... part of that problem is that defenses figured out what we were doing well and took that away... but in general giving Chip Long a pass because Wimbush is a poor thrower makes no sense. Chip Long also sucked. It's his first year calling plays though... he can get better and showed some good glimpses. Wimbush can also get better. It doesn't make sense to write off anyone right now.

 

[RDU Irish]

Which plays are the "RPOs" that he ran incorrectly?

If you're referring to zone reads... where there is a choice to hand it off or keep it himself, but not a pass option.... I agree somewhat. You're not acknowledging the times he did make big plays on those, and all the times LSU had both the keep and hand off covered because it was a dumb play call. However, the bigger issue is that Long called way too many of those slow developing zone read plays (and many of them are actually pre-determined gives or keeps NOT reads of any sort) over the last few games despite opposing defenses being completely ready for them.

ESB play I was referring to had nothing to do with an "RPO". And I don't think we ran "hundreds" of RPOs this season.



That might explain why "execution" is better but has nothing to do with the plays being called. Long can chose to call whatever he wants for whoever is under center.



Most of those are actually pre-determined designed handoffs not true zone reads.



Wimbush being a poor passer -- which he is -- needs to be divorced from the fact that Chip Long has also sucked as a play caller for much of the season. Both can be true. Some of the shit he has schemed up is just asinine

Long had shaky game plans for the first quarter of the season, then a couple good games, then called a poor game with Book at QB against UNC, then three games of excellent game plans, and then did a piss poor job for the last 4 games of the year. It was a roller coaster of him trying different things. He was not consistently good or bad.

Book is a better thrower of the football than Wimbush. Book is much better on timing routes and short passes than Wimbush. Long did not call the same plays for Wimbush and Book against LSU. Long has been extremely poor from a game plan/play calling standpoint for the last four games of the season. All of these can be true.

From the first part - WTF would Long call plays that he knows Wimbush will not be able to execute? Of course part of his play calling is considering what the f-ing person handling the ball can actually do with any consistency!

As for the second part - No kidding! Are there ANY routes that Wimbush is a better passer than Book? As such - you think Long might be able to call a few things knowing Book at least has a chance of bailing it out on the next play through the air?

If Wimbush were a Frosh I might have more patience - but the kid has been here long enough to call this spade a spade.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm pretty sure some, if not most, of the RPOs we run aren't true RPOs. They're RB runs that are designed to look like an RPO.

I could be way wrong, so someone correct me if so.

Nah dog, u rite

They rarely let Wimbush make a true read, because he’s not very good at it.

I will say that criticizing BW on the zone-read plays from yesterday would be fruitless, even if he’d actually been making true reads, because LSU’s DE’s and LB’s did an excellent job of splitting the difference on the backside. They were staying home long enough to force the five, but crashing hard enough to help on Adams if the hole wasn’t there immediately.

Like LAX is saying, Long has almost as little feel for those slow-developing plays as BW does on the read.

 

[IrishLax]

From the first part - WTF would Long call plays that he knows Wimbush will not be able to execute? Of course part of his play calling is considering what the f-ing person handling the ball can actually do with any consistency!

He did all season. Go watch what he called against Georgia, BC, NC State, Miami, etc. He called tons of stuff he knows Wimbush is bad. In some cases it was just a bad call, in other cases it was top open up the stuff he is good at.

Soooo.... what's your point?

As for the second part - No kidding! Are there ANY routes that Wimbush is a better passer than Book? As such - you think Long might be able to call a few things knowing Book at least has a chance of bailing it out on the next play through the air?

Yeah, he throws a deep out better than Book. He also has a lot more potential for throwing the ball 30+ yards down the field although in the beginning of the season he overthrew deep shots by a hair.

 

[NDohio]

Start by calling the plays he is good at like he did against USC/NC State/Wake... tempo, vertical passes, designed QB runs, simplified decisions.

Believe it or not, Wimbush finished the year with a top 20 QBR. There's this idea that Wimbush totally sucked all year and was never capable of being productive. From the point he got hurt against Wake Forest on forward we started doing a lot of dumb stuff on offense AND Wimbush played bad... part of that problem is that defenses figured out what we were doing well and took that away... but in general giving Chip Long a pass because Wimbush is a poor thrower makes no sense. Chip Long also sucked. It's his first year calling plays though... he can get better and showed some good glimpses. Wimbush can also get better. It doesn't make sense to write off anyone right now.

Not writing anyone off.

From Wake Forest on the offense has not looked good at all. IMO that is on both of them. But, it has to be very difficult for an OC to dial up a game plan when his starting QB cannot make a single pass consistently and does not go through his reads at all. Even the vertical passes fell apart for BW the last half of the season. Something, or a combination of somethings, happened and BW lost part of what made him good early in the season. I don't know what happened but he fell apart right before our eyes.

 

[ACamp1900]

It was amazing how he was coming along, growing, playing better and better and then sometime after the USC game, everything seemed to just go to hell and gone....

 

[dad4aa]

I disagree.

Wimbush running the RPO is the problem. Not the play calling. He doesn't/can't make the right read. The ESB play being just one example of literally dozens, or hundreds if you count the entire season.

Also the reason why the game is "100%" different under Book is, he makes better reads and throws a better pass.

Wimbush should have been running hard from the start of yesterdays game, but to often he incorrectly read the defence and kept handing it off to Adam's for little gain.

His decisions on throws were as bad as the throws themselves with the exception of the opening play.

I am agnostic on Long, but he isn't as big a problem as BW is in run the Offense

You act as if you were in the huddle and knew the play called. How do you know it wasn’t a designed run to Adams and BW was not ever considering keeping the ball!

 

[Irish#1]

Well, this narrative would hold a lot more water if he was calling similar stuff for both players and Book simply executed it better.

4th and 1 on first drive... Long calls slow developing running play. He gets rightfully ripped.

Next drive... again moving the ball... kills the drive with a trick play. Called three trick plays, all of which failed (although the flea flicker could've been completed to EQ as the secondary read).

Went uptempo basically never, very QB designed runs or draws, very few vertical passes to back off the defense even after connecting on the first one. Just called a bunch of dumb stuff AND Wimbush failed to execute on some of the few opportunities he had.

Book comes in, and they call a 100% different game. Get Dex two touches on a drive (finally) that leads to a TD. Other TD comes from throwing vertical. Lots of misdirection, lots of QB bootlegs and such.

Most of it was misdirection in the second half. While Long gets some blame, some of it has to go to the coaches up in the PB. They should have spotted LSU's tendencies sooner. The color guy was spot on about the misdirection. You had these first year players with not much experience excited and wanting to make a mark so they jump on the first read and take themselves out of position. Book is a pretty good runner, but imagine if they had called those plays for BW?

 

[ThePiombino]

It was amazing how he was coming along, growing, playing better and better and then sometime after the USC game, everything seemed to just go to hell and gone....

I'm sure it was probably just coincidence, but I think that final scoring drive of the 1st hald in the WF game was a turning point for BW. I don't think that hit made him a worse passer, but I do think it forced him to shy away (whether by the coaches' doing or his own) from running with the ball as aggressively. Perhaps that just took him out of his comfort zone and forced him to try to be something he's not -- a pocket passer.

 

[RDU Irish]

Maybe my memory sucks but I don't remember Wimbush killing it with his arm. Pretty much all the excuses people were throwing about WR drops I was saying or thinking - wtf some of those throws were lucky they got a hand on it and others they seemed surprised it was catchable. With the exception of Mack - JFC he had some horrible drops. Tons more WTF than WOW when his arm went back. I just figured he was working through it and best was yet to come - only it kept getting worse.

 

[NDohio]

I'm sure it was probably just coincidence, but I think that final scoring drive of the 1st hald in the WF game was a turning point for BW. I don't think that hit made him a worse passer, but I do think it forced him to shy away (whether by the coaches' doing or his own) from running with the ball as aggressively. Perhaps that just took him out of his confort zone and forced him to try to be something he's not -- a pocket passer.

Agreed. That hit, which didn't look like much at the time, changed our season...

 

[AvesEvo]

Agreed. That hit, which didn't look like much at the time, changed our season...

The offense definitely changed, but starting with wake forest everyone started putting up points on us.

 

[stlnd01]

The offense definitely changed, but starting with wake forest everyone started putting up points on us.

It’s a minor miracle we were able to hide our weak safeties as long as we were.

 

[Luckylucci]

Tim Prister brought up that Wimbush has been dealing with Migraines and he even was held from some bowl prep. Partially why the staff was comfortable with Book, because Book got more work that usual leading up to the game. I was wondering if anyone knows how big of a factor this might be.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

I’m hoping BW can harness his considerable athletic gifts and put it together next year. He just never looked comfortable. He reminded me of the Chuck Knoblauch yips when he threw the ball. I really was impressed with Book and am glad he’s with us. The kid is more comfortable and decisive right now. I think at the moment he has a better handle on what’s expected pre and post snap.

 

[irishff1014]

Tim Prister brought up that Wimbush has been dealing with Migraines and he even was held from some bowl prep. Partially why the staff was comfortable with Book, because Book got more work that usual leading up to the game. I was wondering if anyone knows how big of a factor this might be.

People that have true migraines are normally down for two days. They are extremely sensitive to light. They are tired for a few days. They could be caused by many sources so the stress of school work then practice then watching film would probably cause him more migraines. I can’t imagine taking to many hard hits helps either.

 

[irishtrain]

The position of QB is based on throwing a tight catchable ball on the patterns that you and the coaching staff have determined are your best options when you need to throw. Next- bringing a leadership role of encouragement/poise/the buck stops here attitude. You do not have to always be making the hero throw or star of the game feel to everything you do. When you have that guy you win. When that guy has the tremendous ability to pull a rabbit out of the hat you win big. Kelly (who I think is great) tends to fall in love with the Golson/Wimbush ability guy and would leave Tom Clements/Tony Rice on the pine.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

If it's really a mental hurdle that's holding him back, I really hope he can get over it this offseason. It's crazy how productive he was in the first half of the season when teams played him like he was a good passer. The numbers he put up on the ground is just a glimpse of what he can accomplish if he can become a 60-65% thrower. I really thought we were looking at a 2018 Heisman candidate halfway through the season. To go from that, to possibly a back up is mind blowing.

 

[dad4aa]

Hopefully his lasik surgery will help him be the quarterback we thought he would be. Interested to see if his vision problems were a big cause of the over/under throws.