'14 OH QB DeShone Kizer (Notre Dame Signee)

[koonja]

 

[connor_in]

Apparently Jimmy Clausen recommending DK goes pro after this year

 

[stlnd01]

Apparently Jimmy Clausen recommending DK goes pro after this year

Jimmy Clausen is an idiot.

 

[NDPhilly]

Apparently Jimmy Clausen recommending DK goes pro after this year

worked real well for Jimmy so I can't see why he wouldn't listen to him. Good to see legendary ND QB's looking out for each other.

 

[military_irish]

Apparently Jimmy Clausen recommending DK goes pro after this year

Because it worked out so well for him......

 

[pumpdog20]

Clausen made money playing football, I'd say it did work out for him.

 

[mgriff]

If his stock doesn't tank he's going to most likely go pro. I should put Wimbush as my avatar.

 

[Bluto]

How does former players posting this kind of crap benefit ND? Idiot.

 

[IrishLax]

DeShone's QBR by game this season:
Texas - 90.6... elite
Nevada - 79.4... pretty good
MSU - 62.5... mediocre, not good
Duke - 83.1... pretty good
Syracuse - 76.3... decent
NC State - 3.4... other worldly bad, played in a hurricane
Stanford - 43.7... very bad

So, on the year, our "#1 pick" has one elite game, two pretty good games against very bad competition, one OK game against what was one of the worst defenses in CFB... and three not great games.

He currently sits 47th in the country in QBR, not even in the top half of Power 5 passers. To be fair, take out the NC State game and he'd be closer to 30th. So not only do I not understand the hype, but do people still think I'm crazy for suggesting Wimbush might be more talented than a guy not even producing at a top 25 level?

And I'm seriously skeptical any NFL franchise is using a top draft pick on someone with his flaws.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

He's the best player on our team. I can't believe how under appreciated and hated this guy is. Blows my mind.

 

[IrishLax]

He's the best player on our team. I can't believe how under appreciated and hated this guy is. Blows my mind.

Not even close. Probably the 4th or 5th best player on offense, 8th best overall. There's really no evidence at this point that he's even "very good" besides how he performed against Texas' bad defense. Even going back to last year he has mediocre showings against anyone with a plus defense.

 

[philipm31]

Clausen made money playing football, I'd say it did work out for him.

6-year career in a league where the average career is 3 years.

He is not wrong because Kizer is not getting better at ND. It might be a good time to move on for Kizer after this year.

Sad to say, but it might be the prudent thing for him to do financially and mentally, because I think that BK has totally lost his QB now.

 

[TP81989]

Kizer hasn't played well in these last couple of games, but this teams problems are bigger than just him. Have to start with the HC and go from there. The QB position has been a mess since Kelly has been at ND and they all seem to regress.

 

[philipm31]

DeShone's QBR by game this season:
Texas - 90.6... elite
Nevada - 79.4... pretty good
MSU - 62.5... mediocre, not good
Duke - 83.1... pretty good
Syracuse - 76.3... decent
NC State - 3.4... other worldly bad, played in a hurricane
Stanford - 43.7... very bad

So, on the year, our "#1 pick" has one elite game, two pretty good games against very bad competition, one OK game against what was one of the worst defenses in CFB... and three not great games.

He currently sits 47th in the country in QBR, not even in the top half of Power 5 passers. To be fair, take out the NC State game and he'd be closer to 30th. So not only do I not understand the hype, but do people still think I'm crazy for suggesting Wimbush might be more talented than a guy not even producing at a top 25 level?

And I'm seriously skeptical any NFL franchise is using a top draft pick on someone with his flaws.

CLE is always there.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

Not even close. Probably the 4th or 5th best player on offense, 8th best overall. There's really no evidence at this point that he's even "very good" besides how he performed against Texas' bad defense. Even going back to last year he has mediocre showings against anyone with a plus defense.

Agree to disagree. Who do you think is better, though? I don't think we have a better player on the roster. He's just in an unfortunate situate with incompetent coaching, in my opinion, and I think NFL scouts see that, as well. He's put in so many terrible situations, dude can't be a miracle worker on every possession.

 

[pkt77242]

DeShone's QBR by game this season:
Texas - 90.6... elite
Nevada - 79.4... pretty good
MSU - 62.5... mediocre, not good
Duke - 83.1... pretty good
Syracuse - 76.3... decent
NC State - 3.4... other worldly bad, played in a hurricane
Stanford - 43.7... very bad

So, on the year, our "#1 pick" has one elite game, two pretty good games against very bad competition, one OK game against what was one of the worst defenses in CFB... and three not great games.

He currently sits 47th in the country in QBR, not even in the top half of Power 5 passers. To be fair, take out the NC State game and he'd be closer to 30th. So not only do I not understand the hype, but do people still think I'm crazy for suggesting Wimbush might be more talented than a guy not even producing at a top 25 level?

And I'm seriously skeptical any NFL franchise is using a top draft pick on someone with his flaws.

I want to expand on this, looking at Kizer's strengths and weaknesses.

Weaknesses:
1. Not very accurate. Sometimes he is high, sometimes he is low, but he has an accuracy issue. This should be worrisome to any pro team because accuracy generally doesn't improve from college to pros.
2. He holds the ball to long. Yes the o-line stinks this year but Kizer holds the ball too long.
3. Kizer doesn't do a good job of checking down. Kizer does do a good job of keeping his eyes down the field as the play breaks down but he does a very poor job of seeing his RB and TE underneath, and doesn't do a good job of taking what the defense is giving him.

Strengths:
1. He throws a nice deep ball. The problem is that there is no Will Fuller on this team for him to throw it up too.
2. He extends plays. He does a good job of extending plays and if he can learn to find his RB and TE underneath it will greatly improve his play.
3. Can make all the throws. He has plenty of arm strength. His one problem right now is that he doesn't trust his o-line (somewhat understandably) and is throwing too much off his back foot.

Kizer has a ton of potential but between the things that he needs to work on, the teams problems (crappy o-line, and inexperienced WRs with no deep threat), and Kelly's coaching, the potential is being somewhat wasted currently.

 

[IrishLax]

Agree to disagree. Who do you think is better, though? I don't think we have a better player on the roster. He's just in an unfortunate situate with incompetent coaching, in my opinion, and I think NFL scouts see that, as well. He's put in so many terrible situations, dude can't be a miracle worker on every possession.

How can you say that though when he's barely in the top 50 QBs in the country? He's not being asked to be a miracle worker. He's being asked to do stuff Tommy Rees routinely executed and is failing. He threw a bunch of terrible passes today, mostly to his right. He is horrible going that direction. There is nothing about the play call that makes him throw the ball into the ground or sail it high.

On the game-killing sack on second down on the last drive, he had a dump off to Adams open immediately. He probably walks into the endzone as the man covering him was very late getting over. But Kizer misses it, can't throw the ball away, and takes a sack.

McGlinchey is obviously a top 25 OT, and Nelson is a top 25 OG. ESB is a top 25 WR. Sanders is a top 25 return man. So he's obviously behind all those guys. And Rochelle and Morgan almost certainly as well. Kizer is the 47th best QB.

 

[pkt77242]

How can you say that though when he's barely in the top 50 QBs in the country? He's not being asked to be a miracle worker. He's being asked to do stuff Tommy Rees routinely executed and is failing. He threw a bunch of terrible passes today, mostly to his right. He is horrible going that direction. There is nothing about the play call that makes him throw the ball into the ground or sail it high.

On the game-killing sack on second down on the last drive, he had a dump off to Adams open immediately. He probably walks into the endzone as the man covering him was very late getting over. But Kizer misses it, can't throw the ball away, and takes a sack.

McGlinchey is obviously a top 25 OT, and Nelson is a top 25 OG. ESB is a top 25 WR. Sanders is a top 25 return man. So he's obviously behind all those guys. And Rochelle and Morgan almost certainly as well. Kizer is the 47th best QB.

To be fair, he isn't the 47th best QB, as that NC St game should be thrown out. Also the QB really depends upon other players, for example if the right side of the line couldn't block a pile of turds then it really doesn't matter the talent level of the QB. I think that Kizer is probably one of our best 5 players, the order of which really seems to change game to game.

 

[IrishLax]

I want to expand on this, looking at Kizer's strengths and weaknesses.

Weaknesses:
1. Not very accurate. Sometimes he is high, sometimes he is low, but he has an accuracy issue. This should be worrisome to any pro team because accuracy generally doesn't improve from college to pros.
2. He holds the ball to long. Yes the o-line stinks this year but Kizer holds the ball too long.
3. Kizer doesn't do a good job of checking down. Kizer does do a good job of keeping his eyes down the field as the play breaks down but he does a very poor job of seeing his RB and TE underneath, and doesn't do a good job of taking what the defense is giving him.

1. Yes, especially to his right.
2. Yes. He doesn't throw in rhythm. He counts to 3 waiting for someone to get open, and then takes a sack.
3. Yes. Part of what killed the last drive.

Strengths:
1. He throws a nice deep ball. The problem is that there is no Will Fuller on this team for him to throw it up too.
2. He extends plays. He does a good job of extending plays and if he can learn to find his RB and TE underneath it will greatly improve his play.
3. Can make all the throws. He has plenty of arm strength. His one problem right now is that he doesn't trust his o-line (somewhat understandably) and is throwing too much off his back foot.

Kizer has a ton of potential but between the things that he needs to work on, the teams problems (crappy o-line, and inexperienced WRs with no deep threat), and Kelly's coaching, the potential is being somewhat wasted currently.

Agreed with all but #2. For someone with his traits, he does a good job stepping up in the pocket, but does a surprisingly bad job actually escaping pressure to either gain yards or make a throw. Golson was WAY better than him at extending plays.

 

[IrishLax]

To be fair, he isn't the 47th best QB, as that NC St game should be thrown out. Also the QB really depends upon other players, for example if the right side of the line couldn't block a pile of turds then it really doesn't matter the talent level of the QB. I think that Kizer is probably one of our best 5 players, the order of which really seems to change game to game.

Right, but like I said above you take that out and he's still not even top 30.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

How can you say that though when he's barely in the top 50 QBs in the country? He's not being asked to be a miracle worker. He's being asked to do stuff Tommy Rees routinely executed and is failing. He threw a bunch of terrible passes today, mostly to his right. He is horrible going that direction. There is nothing about the play call that makes him throw the ball into the ground or sail it high.

On the game-killing sack on second down on the last drive, he had a dump off to Adams open immediately. He probably walks into the endzone as the man covering him was very late getting over. But Kizer misses it, can't throw the ball away, and takes a sack.

McGlinchey is obviously a top 25 OT, and Nelson is a top 25 OG. ESB is a top 25 WR. Sanders is a top 25 return man. So he's obviously behind all those guys. And Rochelle and Morgan almost certainly as well. Kizer is the 47th best QB.

You're basing your entire argument off of one stat, though. Tony Romo has a higher career QBR than Tom Brady. Dan Marino is T-21st. Ryan Fitzpatrick has a higher career QBR than John Elway. Fitzpatrick over John Elway!? I mean, it's one stat. He has 20 TD this year and 5 INT. He hasn't been everything we thought he'd be, for sure, but trashing him is something I won't do. He's been the best QB on our roster since day 1, and he has to look over his shoulder because of BK's ineptitude and love affair with MZ. Of all the disappointments so far this year, Kizer is towards the bottom of my list. But that's just me.

Edit: The stat I referred to was Passer Rating, not QBR.

 

[IrishLax]

You're basing your entire argument off of one stat, though. Tony Romo has a higher career QBR than Tom Brady. Dan Marino is T-21st. Ryan Fitzpatrick has a higher career QBR than John Elway. Fitzpatrick over John Elway!? I mean, it's one stat. He has 20 TD this year and 5 INT. He hasn't been everything we thought he'd be, for sure, but trashing him is something I won't do. He's been the best QB on our roster since day 1, and he has to look over his shoulder because of BK's ineptitude and love affair with MZ. Of all the disappointments so far this year, Kizer is towards the bottom of my list. But that's just me.

Edit: The stat I referred to was Passer Rating, not QBR.

I'm not basing it off "one stat"... I'm basing it off grading. QBR is simply a grading of how a QB actually performed in a given game, all factors (including running) considered. I'm happy to consider all other grading systems by PFF, etc.

Here's another fun fact... there's only one QB who graded out worse against Stanford this year than Kizer did... and he got hurt in the game.

 

[NDdomer2]

The bad sacks get very frustrating. For as athletic and big as he is at least tuck and plow ahead.

 

[BobbyMac]

Last year he stayed in a rock solid pocket, regardless how tight it was, and fired strikes. Everyone compared his pocket presence to Big Ben, an admirable trait. This year he stays in an unsolid pocket for too long. Regardless of how good your line is, you've got 3 Mississippi's to get rid of it. Follow the rule and you erase 90% of the negative plays.

 

[NDRock]

The bad sacks get very frustrating. For as athletic and big as he is at least tuck and plow ahead.

Agree, would love to see him tuck it and run much more.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

DeShone's QBR by game this season:
Texas - 90.6... elite
Nevada - 79.4... pretty good
MSU - 62.5... mediocre, not good
Duke - 83.1... pretty good
Syracuse - 76.3... decent
NC State - 3.4... other worldly bad, played in a hurricane
Stanford - 43.7... very bad

So, on the year, our "#1 pick" has one elite game, two pretty good games against very bad competition, one OK game against what was one of the worst defenses in CFB... and three not great games.

He currently sits 47th in the country in QBR, not even in the top half of Power 5 passers. To be fair, take out the NC State game and he'd be closer to 30th. So not only do I not understand the hype, but do people still think I'm crazy for suggesting Wimbush might be more talented than a guy not even producing at a top 25 level?

And I'm seriously skeptical any NFL franchise is using a top draft pick on someone with his flaws.

DeShone could use another year. I never said otherwise. But since I am the de facto leader of the DK Fan Club, I have to impress you with two overpowering facts :

• DK is being ruined by his coaching. I believe this has to do with Kelly, and not Sanford, for the record.
• Kizer needs to be run by his coach, given very little decision making ability from the line of scrimmage. Not more. Interesting, as he has had more flexibility since the start of the season his QB rating has suffered. Tremendously.
• The most important point in the defense of DK, and the true show of how bad DK's coaching is at ND is the NC State game. I mean, do you really want to hold any of that unholy mess against DeShone? Do you know how that 'worst single game quarterback rating in the history of quarterback ratings' had affected his seasons ratings? Let alone his attitude and morale?
• You know, at the beginning of the season everyone was talking about how great the quarterback talent was at ND this year, for the first time in the Kelly era! Remember? Now we are being asked to, or are willingly asking if that quarterback talent is as good as we thought. What if it is all about Kelly destroying quarterback talent? Really. Think about it!

My more nuanced feeling about DeShone Kizer at this point is to wait and see what happens with the coaching shake out. DK is fairly close to graduation, (within a year I believe.) So he has three options for next year; declare, remain, or grad transfer, by next fall. I may be a little off on the third, but I don't thing so. I think if he loaded up this spring and summer, he could be done by the end of summer.

At any rate, he should wait until he sees what happens and makes his decision. Though I am pretty strongly against him declaring for the NFL draft, I am 100% for him being gone if Kelly remains. If Kelly is gone and Mike Sanford retained, I am 90% plus in favor of DK staying.

But even leaving too early for the NFL and risking a bad first year is better than staying. And that is why I expect DK's NFL stock to stay up or rise, even if his performance doesn't improve, or he rides the bench under Kelly.

And remember, when speaking of Jimmy Clausen, DK is no Jimmy Clausen!

 

[irishff1014]

DeShone could use another year. I never said otherwise. But since I am the de facto leader of the DK Fan Club, I have to impress you with two overpowering facts :

• DK is being ruined by his coaching. I believe this has to do with Kelly, and not Sanford, for the record.
• Kizer needs to be run by his coach, given very little decision making ability from the line of scrimmage. Not more. Interesting, as he has had more flexibility since the start of the season his QB rating has suffered. Tremendously.
• The most important point in the defense of DK, and the true show of how bad DK's coaching is at ND is the NC State game. I mean, do you really want to hold any of that unholy mess against DeShone? Do you know how that 'worst single game quarterback rating in the history of quarterback ratings' had affected his seasons ratings? Let alone his attitude and morale?
• You know, at the beginning of the season everyone was talking about how great the quarterback talent was at ND this year, for the first time in the Kelly era! Remember? Now we are being asked to, or are willingly asking if that quarterback talent is as good as we thought. What if it is all about Kelly destroying quarterback talent? Really. Think about it!

My more nuanced feeling about DeShone Kizer at this point is to wait and see what happens with the coaching shake out. DK is fairly close to graduation, (within a year I believe.) So he has three options for next year; declare, remain, or grad transfer, by next fall. I may be a little off on the third, but I don't thing so. I think if he loaded up this spring and summer, he could be done by the end of summer.

At any rate, he should wait until he sees what happens and makes his decision. Though I am pretty strongly against him declaring for the NFL draft, I am 100% for him being gone if Kelly remains. If Kelly is gone and Mike Sanford retained, I am 90% plus in favor of DK staying.

But even leaving too early for the NFL and risking a bad first year is better than staying. And that is why I expect DK's NFL stock to stay up or rise, even if his performance doesn't improve, or he rides the bench under Kelly.

And remember, when speaking of Jimmy Clausen, DK is no Jimmy Clausen!

Throwing stupid int's is on Kelly?
Taking terrible sacks is on Kelly?
Changing the play at the line 2 times is on Kelly?
Missing wide open wr's is on Kelly?

He isn't good right now. He needs to sit down watch his tape and realize that he needs to calm down and play football. Quit overthinking everything. Remember these are supposed to be SMART players.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Throwing stupid int's is on Kelly?

Taking terrible sacks is on Kelly?

Changing the play at the line 2 times is on Kelly?

Missing wide open wr's is on Kelly?



He isn't good right now. He needs to sit down watch his tape and realize that he needs to calm down and play football. Quit overthinking everything. Remember these are supposed to be SMART players.

Browns fans have to feel better now. Take Myles Garrett. Bullet dodged.

 

[ulukinatme]

Kizer hasn't played well in these last couple of games, but this teams problems are bigger than just him. Have to start with the HC and go from there. The QB position has been a mess since Kelly has been at ND and they all seem to regress.

I'm not sure they regress. I think Kelly likes to keep things simple for his QBs and then after they've had several games to a year under their belt he ramps things up. That's when things begin to go sour. We start throwing the ball 30-35+ times a game and it invites interceptions and costly mistakes. We put too much on the QB's shoulders, we seem to be most successful when the running game is strong and we're throwing it <30 times a game. Tommy, Kizer, and Golson all looked like good QBs when the offense was simple. They've struggled a bit when you put more on their shoulders offensively.

 

[ThePiombino]

It's funny - one month ago I would have prayed for DK to come back for one more year. However, after seeing his regression, I'm wondering if this team's best chance to win next year isn't with BW. After all, BK does his best work with 1st year starters.