'14 OH QB DeShone Kizer (Notre Dame Signee)

[Irish Insanity]

He led the team in rushing today. As well as 381 yds thru the air. And 3 TDs total. If he only could've played DB or LB too. Or teach the D how to fucking tackle. Then we may have a shot.

 

[ulukinatme]

"more earthly expectations"?

You're the one saying he played crappy.... You're the one that needs more realistic expectations.

He did not play great. But he definitely, definitely played well enough to win a football game.

If that fucking defense would have given up just one less TD, we won, with his, "shitty game".

People were saying Heisman and put him above Quinn in the hierarchy of QBs. The fact is QBs always put up big numbers in Kelly's offense. The problem is it puts enormous pressure on the QB to play near perfect, especially if your defense blows. No one can be perfect though, every Kelly QB is going to get stuck with a bad game because you can't put the entire offense on one guy's shoulders week in and week out. All I was saying was people need to lower their expectations a bit, he was on a pedestal after the first 3 games. Yes, the defense is the crux of the problem, as well as the run game. We have to take the load off Kizer's shoulders, because games like this are asking too much out of any QB.

 

[Irish Insanity]

If Kizer wasn't continually questioned publicly in the media by BK maybe he wouldn't feel the need to try and carry the team and force the valley down the field on every play.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

People were saying Heisman and put him above Quinn in the hierarchy of QBs. The fact is QBs always put up big numbers in Kelly's offense. The problem is it puts enormous pressure on the QB to play near perfect, especially if your defense blows. No one can be perfect though, every Kelly QB is going to get stuck with a bad game because you can't put the entire offense on one guy's shoulders week in and week out. All I was saying was people need to lower their expectations a bit, he was on a pedestal after the first 3 games. Yes, the defense is the crux of the problem, as well as the run game. We have to take the load off Kizer's shoulders, because games like this are asking too much out of any QB.

I don't understand you.

You're saying people need to, "lower their expectations." Yet, you're saying that Kizer played "shitty".

Those are two completely different statements.

 

[ulukinatme]

I don't understand you.

You're saying people need to, "lower their expectations." Yet, you're saying that Kizer played "shitty".

Those are two completely different statements.

It's not that hard. Kizer is decent, but he's not the Super Man people were making him out to be. He's good, but overrated. We can't constantly put the entire offense on his shoulders, because you're going to have games like this. We need to fix our running game, and obviously the defense needs major corrections. Prior to the game people were anointing him the greatest QB in college football. Heisman level QBs don't wilt on final drives with the game on the line like that, nor fail to find blatantly open receivers. He gets entirely too locked in to EQ/Hunter.

 

[NDRock]

I don't understand you.

You're saying people need to, "lower their expectations." Yet, you're saying that Kizer played "shitty".

Those are two completely different statements.

I think you've summed it up perfectly.

 

[PLACforever]

 

[gkautz10]

You may not like the analogy but the fact is Newsome averaged 47 yards per punt and they averaged 5.5 on the returns. That's a 41.5 net. His pass took us from the 5 to the 45 yard line so we lost 1.5 yards. Not to mention him throwing it downfield gave us a chance for a catch or a PI call.

Why in the heck would you want our Special Teams trotting out there and punting from our own end zone? Have you watched our Special Teams this year? Kier led the team in passing and rushing. Guy is a stud.

How many college QBs would you trade him for right now? Now how many college DCs would you trade Van Gorder for? Your answer will tell you all you need to know about the problems with this team.

Great post.

You people are ruthless and sound dumb. Why are we criticizing the qb who obviously feels he has to score every time hhe is out there to have a chance to win. The offense is not the issue outside of questionable play calling which is nothing new under BK. Many of kizers mistakes are due to him pressing because our defense sucks. He is still one of the better qbs in college at this point. He has played a decent amount for someone his age and he has experienced his back against the wall on the final drive before. I think he forced a few passes to guys that were covered in the last few plays but that is really the only criticism I can heap on him. You want tommy staring down his 1 receiver again? If he does not start next week I will jump on the bandwagon of firing BK. Malik is not a good qb, he has made poor decisions in the few chances he has had.

 

[gkautz10]

It's not that hard. Kizer is decent, but he's not the Super Man people were making him out to be. He's good, but overrated. We can't constantly put the entire offense on his shoulders, because you're going to have games like this. We need to fix our running game, and obviously the defense needs major corrections. Prior to the game people were anointing him the greatest QB in college football. Heisman level QBs don't wilt on final drives with the game on the line like that, nor fail to find blatantly open receivers. He gets entirely too locked in to EQ/Hunter.

Agree with you. The offensive line has been a huge disappointment to me this year. Supposedly 2 draft picks and we can't get a push from them or keep guys out of the backfield? When we run off tackle there has been some success, anything up the middle other than a draw has been pretty much shut down repeatedly

 

[Bogtrotter07]

For every one that has posted in this thread since the Duke game that hasn't been around since Weis and Clausen were 'tearing it up' :

This thread has become an ideal example of 'the cult of the personality.'

A cult of personality arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods to create an idealized, heroic, and at times worshipful image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise. Sociologist Max Weber developed a tripartite classification of authority; the cult of personality holds parallels with what Weber defined as "charismatic authority". A cult of personality is similar to divinization, except that it is established by mass media and propaganda usually by the state, especially in totalitarian states.

I have always added a 'the,' which helps me draw a distinction between the darker practices of an evil empire, and American College Football. (Okay, other American sports, too!)

So you have a team. All of a sudden someone comes along. And is anointed a star. So winning becomes about them. Until a team loses. Then the risk is they are demonized.

Thus you have UND, Kelly, and Kizer, today.

Yesterday's loss was Kizer's fault?

Without Kizer yesterday, ND would have been absolutely embarrassed by Duke. ND would have probably lost by the margin they were picked to win, (21.)

But since some have exalted DK, some must find an easy target to blame.

Just because we don't really understand football, let alone what is going on with ND, doesn't mean we have to throw the one bright spot on the team under the bus!

DK not playing like he did against Clemson or Stanford last year? Are you kidding? This team isn't remotely like the team from last year!

Kizer is one player! So far in college football I don't think there is a recorded case of a player blocking for himself, while he waited to run his own route, and threw to himself for an amazing completion.

For those of you who can't see this, good luck with that. I would recommend a compass, flashlight, and maybe a proctologist.

 

[NDdomer2]

Bogs, your my guy!

But I think they reason your getting such extremes is everyone's wanting to place sole blame somewhere. When with a team sport like football it always takes the entire team.

Kizer was not the full problem or full solution Saturday.

But was still part of both.

I think the thing that kills me is one person can't say someone played bad, because it's not problem 1 or because he is solution 1.

Solution 1 has biggest role in success, Problem 1 has biggest role in failure. So it's easy to to point and blame Problem and Solution 1's when things go wrong. Because there's an inverse relation ship between solution and problem.

So as Solution 1 plays more like Solution 5, he also goes from Problem 100 to problem 95 and his errors can be determined more costly.

With all that said, it doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to point out that Solution 1 didn't play up to Solution 1.

 

[IrishLax]

I feel like you expect him to be perfect. Shit happens sometimes and ever QB has mishandled a snap in game and lost the ball. Are you going to go in EQ's thread and state how is fumble is inexcusable? How his two or three drops he had today cost the team some first downs?

He failed in the final drive. But, what about all the times he has succeeded? Virginia, Stanford, Texas twice. He has succeeded more times than he has failed.

I just think he is pressing, because the defense can't stop anyone.

I can't fault he man for today's game, passing for 300 + yards is pretty damn good. He will have better days though, no doubt.

For direct comparison, consider DeShaun Watson who is the guy everyone has been comparing/contrasting him to as a draft prospect so far this year. Last year DeShaun Watson, against Bama, said "I realize I need to carry my team" and played virtually flawless football. That's also how Kizer played against Texas after being handed a 17 point deficit.

Like I said, he's not the principal problem. Is it fair to expect him to be perfect? No. Imagine if we had Rees or Golson at the helm right now. lol.

But I do think we (and draft scouts) overrated him after two games. I really thought he was going to be a transcendent QB like Winston or Newton that could "cure all" the other problems.

I just think he's much more inconsistent than we thought. And I think his supporting cast also needs to pick him up. Let's look at the drive chart for failed drives:

Drive #3 -- 3 & out, we punt on 4th & 1, nobodies fault really except conservative play calling after two drives of being aggressive.
Drive #4 -- Folston loses yards, then false start, then Kizer misses pass, then Yoon misses field goal... can blame everyone.
Drive #5 -- Zaire crushes the drive with a huge loss on the trick play.
Drive #6 -- Kizer fumbles basically in our own red zone. 100% on him, gives them points and their first lead of the day.
Drive #8 -- Kizer takes three negative plays in a row to kill the drive.
Drive #9 -- ESB fumble.
Drive #11 -- Kizer misses two throws after a Josh Adams fumble puts us in 2nd & 16.
Drive #13 -- Kizer takes a 7 yard sack on second down, and then arm punts on 3rd down missing a wide open receiver.
Drive #14 -- Kizer misses a bunch of throws and the game ends.

So over the last 9 drives of the game, Kizer basically killed five of them virtually by himself. Three of them went for TDs. And one of them was killed by ESB's fumble. That's not really what you expect against Duke, especially down two of their best players in the secondary. Given 14 drives, I'd expect at least 49 points and I don't think that's unreasonable given how bad Duke is. But we only scored on 3 of the last 12 drives...

 

[Irish Insanity]

Imagine how good he's be if the staff actually put their players, and this team, in a position to be successful week in and week out.

 

[texbender]

DK just seemed out of sinc yesterday, missing quite a few open receivers. But I don't see anyone else replacing him. Problems are a defense that stops nobody, inability to run, turnovers, and less than satisfactory special teams.
I see better tackling at local high school games, just pathetic.

 

[NDRock]

For direct comparison, consider DeShaun Watson who is the guy everyone has been comparing/contrasting him to as a draft prospect so far this year. Last year DeShaun Watson, against Bama, said "I realize I need to carry my team" and played virtually flawless football. That's also how Kizer played against Texas after being handed a 17 point deficit.

Like I said, he's not the principal problem. Is it fair to expect him to be perfect? No. Imagine if we had Rees or Golson at the helm right now. lol.

But I do think we (and draft scouts) overrated him after two games. I really thought he was going to be a transcendent QB like Winston or Newton that could "cure all" the other problems.

I just think he's much more inconsistent than we thought. And I think his supporting cast also needs to pick him up. Let's look at the drive chart for failed drives:

Drive #3 -- 3 & out, we punt on 4th & 1, nobodies fault really except conservative play calling after two drives of being aggressive.
Drive #4 -- Folston loses yards, then false start, then Kizer misses pass, then Yoon misses field goal... can blame everyone.
Drive #5 -- Zaire crushes the drive with a huge loss on the trick play.
Drive #6 -- Kizer fumbles basically in our own red zone. 100% on him, gives them points and their first lead of the day.
Drive #8 -- Kizer takes three negative plays in a row to kill the drive.
Drive #9 -- ESB fumble.
Drive #11 -- Kizer misses two throws after a Josh Adams fumble puts us in 2nd & 16.
Drive #13 -- Kizer takes a 7 yard sack on second down, and then arm punts on 3rd down missing a wide open receiver.
Drive #14 -- Kizer misses a bunch of throws and the game ends.

So over the last 9 drives of the game, Kizer basically killed five of them virtually by himself. Three of them went for TDs. And one of them was killed by ESB's fumble. That's not really what you expect against Duke, especially down two of their best players in the secondary. Given 14 drives, I'd expect at least 49 points and I don't think that's unreasonable given how bad Duke is. But we only scored on 3 of the last 12 drives...

I guess that's the issue people are having. I just look at the fact that he's clearly the best QB of the Kelly era and that he's way down the list of problems for this team. I guess if I had the expectations of him being Cam Newton than I would be disappointed with his play. Seems to be more of an issue with people's unrealistic expectations than with Kizer.

 

[dad4aa]

I guess that's the issue people are having. I just look at the fact that he's clearly the best QB of the Kelly era and that he's way down the list of problems for this team. I guess if I had the expectations of him being Cam Newton than I would be disappointed with his play. Seems to be more of an issue with people's unrealistic expectations than with Kizer.

One of the best posts since end of Duke game.

 

[IrishLax]

I guess that's the issue people are having. I just look at the fact that he's clearly the best QB of the Kelly era and that he's way down the list of problems for this team. I guess if I had the expectations of him being Cam Newton than I would be disappointed with his play. Seems to be more of an issue with people's unrealistic expectations than with Kizer.

Right, I think he got overrated based on how he played against Texas. I think a lot of people thought "well, our defense might suck, but our offense will be SO GOOD that..."

In reality, our offense is B+ which can't win you games with an F for the defense. And the QB play is an A- when people thought it was going to be A+ every week with about a half dozen draft scouts putting Kizer as the #1 overall player and getting the hype train rolling.

And I think Kelly is frustrated, because he's not running the offense as well as he thinks it could be run. He's missing a lot of throws, and checking out of a lot of the plays they're calling. I think he's frustrated because he expects Kizer to be better than how he's playing. When you only score on 3 out of your last 12 drives against DUKE that's not good enough.

 

[IrishLion]

DK's INT is the reason the offense had one last possession at the end of the game, rather than Duke running out the clock and kicking a walk-off field goal.

I think it was a brilliant and genius turnover.

The fumble was bad, though.

 

[BabyIrish]

DK's INT is the reason the offense had one last possession at the end of the game, rather than Duke running out the clock and kicking a walk-off field goal.

I think it was a brilliant and genius turnover.

The fumble was bad, though.

I agree, the INT wasn't a huge issue for me. It was the missed throws, the forced throws. With that being said I really hope BK isn't stupid enough to burn Wimbush's redshirt when the sky is the limit for Kizer

 

[IrishLion]

When he missed EQ on the deep cross on the final drive that probably would've put us in field goal range, I died a little on the inside and told my wife that we're probably gonna miss a bowl game.

 

[BabyIrish]

When he missed EQ on the deep cross on the final drive that probably would've put us in field goal range, I died a little on the inside and told my wife that we're probably gonna miss a bowl game.

Exactly how I felt. He had so much open space.

 

[Irish Insanity]

When he missed EQ on the deep cross on the final drive that probably would've put us in field goal range, I died a little on the inside and told my wife that we're probably gonna miss a bowl game.

Is that the one where ESB jumped 2 steps to early? I mean the ball was high, but had ESB properly times his jump he had a great shot at it

 

[pkt77242]

Is that the one where ESB jumped 2 steps to early? I mean the ball was high, but had ESB properly times his jump he had a great shot at it

Or he probably could just have kept running and caught it.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Or he probably could just have kept running and caught it.

Lulz. That's kinda what I meant. Jump 2 steps later.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Bogs, your my guy!

But I think they reason your getting such extremes is everyone's wanting to place sole blame somewhere. When with a team sport like football it always takes the entire team.

Kizer was not the full problem or full solution Saturday.

But was still part of both.

I think the thing that kills me is one person can't say someone played bad, because it's not problem 1 or because he is solution 1.

Solution 1 has biggest role in success, Problem 1 has biggest role in failure. So it's easy to to point and blame Problem and Solution 1's when things go wrong. Because there's an inverse relation ship between solution and problem.

So as Solution 1 plays more like Solution 5, he also goes from Problem 100 to problem 95 and his errors can be determined more costly.

With all that said, it doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to point out that Solution 1 didn't play up to Solution 1.

I was okay until it was time to place tab A into slot 2!

I understand what you are saying. I agree that Kizer had a subpar day. AND I understand that you agree that his performance wasn't what got the team in trouble.

What I am trying to do is go a step further and say that it is pretty damned apparent that there was a huge issue on this team. One that absolutely impacted the morale.

Going back to all the tape and interview, whenever any player commented on BVG, the silence was defining, and those that did imitations were really not kind and or loving of BVG.

Then there was Joe Schmidt. (Anyone want or need to comment on how he was loved by his teammates?)

Then there were clashes among the coaching staff this season. The were hushed. But they happened.

So looking at all of this, there isn't enough to see how the whole team was adversely affected?

Oh yeah, and as part of the whole thing this weekend before the powers that be went over Kelly's head to fire BVG, Kelly tried to throw Kizer under the bus!!

So it isn't just about BVG. Kelly has actually alienated both quarterbacks in his stable. Just think about it for a minute - The first time Kelly has had a top tier quarterback, and he has more than one; he opens his mouth twice, and alienates both!

Tell me I am wrong, please!

 

[BGIF]

I was okay until it was time to place tab A into slot 2!

I understand what you are saying. I agree that Kizer had a subpar day. AND I understand that you agree that his performance wasn't what got the team in trouble.

What I am trying to do is go a step further and say that it is pretty damned apparent that there was a huge issue on this team. One that absolutely impacted the morale.

Going back to all the tape and interview, whenever any player commented on BVG, the silence was defining, and those that did imitations were really not kind and or loving of BVG.

Then there was Joe Schmidt. (Anyone want or need to comment on how he was loved by his teammates?)

Then there were clashes among the coaching staff this season. The were hushed. But they happened.

So looking at all of this, there isn't enough to see how the whole team was adversely affected?

Oh yeah, and as part of the whole thing this weekend before the powers that be went over Kelly's head to fire BVG, Kelly tried to throw Kizer under the bus!!

So it isn't just about BVG. Kelly has actually alienated both quarterbacks in his stable. Just think about it for a minute - The first time Kelly has had a top tier quarterback, and he has more than one; he opens his mouth twice, and alienates both!

Tell me I am wrong, please!

You're wrong, please!

 

[Irish Insanity]

I still don't get the play calls for Zaire. One buried a drive before it started. Kelly's desire for Zaire (paired with the shity D) cost us the Texas game. And as far as in concerned, Duke too.

 

[IrishLion]

I don't blame him for trying to get Zaire involved. I actually think the playcalls were okay, too.

On the first run, Zaire had a chance to make one cut and get straight ahead for 10+, but he danced around and went for the sideline instead.

On the reverse pass, where it seemed they were trying to throw back to Kizer, there was nothing open. Zaire should've chucked it over Kizer's head and out of bounds, but he swallowed the ball and took a sack. Not a bad idea, but Duke was all over it.

 

[CrystalHead]

Well, Kelly said Wimbush is an option this year, and even Kizer's job is up for grabs this week, so there's no reason we can't have the discussion...

Your 100% right and unfortunately the conversation Is open to Wimbush now. Other than the Fiesta Bowl we have been in a position to win with Kizer at the helm. You would never know this by listening to the head coach. I don't know the conversations that happening behind closed doors, only what is publicly said by Kelly in several press conferences. Kizer is definitely not Kelly's guy and I believe it's evident in the Texas and MSU games when he took the ball out of his hands. Kizer is now pressing to get that approval from his head coach. It's showing in his emotion on the field and his decision making. He is a stud and is and always will be our best option at QB.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I don't blame him for trying to get Zaire involved. I actually think the playcalls were okay, too.

On the first run, Zaire had a chance to make one cut and get straight ahead for 10+, but he danced around and went for the sideline instead.

On the reverse pass, where it seemed they were trying to throw back to Kizer, there was nothing open. Zaire should've chucked it over Kizer's head and out of bounds, but he swallowed the ball and took a sack. Not a bad idea, but Duke was all over it.

My problem with the 2nd was everyone knew the ball would get into Zaire's hands so the D just blitzed him. Had we ran a fake to hin at some point, or more plays where he didn't touch the ball, it would've made sense to me.