'13 CA DT Eddie Vanderdoes (UCLA)

[NDFANnSouthWest]

No gunner kiel

Sure its not AL thread?

 

[ACamp1900]

You can search in any fourm for the most viewed... this has more than double that of AL...

 

[NDdomer2]

Did anyone else read this and want to say hello to Mr. Vanderdoes?

Yes, this, plus his selective responses.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The LOI ONLY guarnatees the recruit a scholarship for ONE year (Most people assume it's for four, but, that is actually incorrect. The school can renew or choose to not renew each year)...

ND has always offered 4-year scholarships. A commitment by an elite academic institution to grant you an undergraduate degree in return for athletic services is hardly a bad deal for the recruit.

But the kid is penalized for a period that , in a way, exceeds that...After that Freshman year is up, the school can choose, unilaterally, to not renew...BUT, if the kid wants to go elsewhere, he is penalized with loss of eligibility.

ND doesn't do this, so it really isn't relevant to this argument.

There is an alternative. A recruit MAY actually sign a "Grant-in-Aid" agreement and be awarded an athletic scholarship. He would still hjave to deal with NCAA transfer rules once enrolled, but, in situations such as Eddie's, he would be free to NOT enroll and then go wherever he wants and be immediately eligible...

Schools like ND, who don't take JuCos and rarely accept transfers, cannot easily replace athletes who suddenly decide they'd rather be elsewhere. The commitment goes both ways.

This is one of the main reasons that such releases are usually granted...or that the appeals are usually won...

"Usually"? Very few athletes are released from NLOIs, and in virtually all of those situations, there are extenuating circumstances. To the best of our knowledge, there's nothing at work here but a "change of heart" by Eddie.

The NCAA does not want to get into a legal battle over the enforceability of the Letter of Intent system.

Not really. There are definitely some aspects of the NCAA system that are manifestly unfair to student athletes, but the NLOI isn't one of them. It's a basic contract, under which both parties provide consideration. A recruit would have a very hard time proving NLOIs are unconscionable, or getting an NLOI nullified on some other legal ground.

Again (since someone again posted saying Notre Dame should "block" UCLA), there is an enforceability issue, legally, with restricting a release...AND there may be an enforceability issue with the LOIs as a whole. (Lots of other issues I won't get into here).

You're not a lawyer, are you? Because your understanding of the legal issues involved here is pretty poor.

The NCAA does not want controvery on these issues. They want to manage there systems themselves...and that requires keeping themselves out of court--which would set REAL precedent.

There are many areas in which the NCAA would prefer to avoid legal scrutiny, but NLOIs aren't one of them.

As to "other coaches calling and urging Notre Dame to stand firm": I think that is complete bs...Coaches have all sorts of interest in these things--on both sides of the ledger...They WANT transfers AWAY from their rivals--and TO their schools...They DON'T want transfers AWAY from their programs and TO their rivals' schools... There are two sides to every coin...I doubt any coaches really care about calling Notre Dame and offering support one way or another...You think Kelly was calling SC to tell them to hold steady and not release Carlisle?

As I mentioned above, ND very rarely accepts transfers, and never accepts JuCos, so we have a much greater interest in binding athletes to their schools than in facilitating their transfers. But then again, we don't tamper in the recruitment of athletes who have already signed NLOIs, so Mora's staff probably feels differently on this issue.

 

[ACamp1900]

If EV has a legit gripe and can clear the mud easily then why hasn't he done so? To be clear this is calling him out or anything,... I'm honestly trying to think what would be preventing him at this point.

 

[50milesSE ND]

I think Old Man Mike has some competition with Bruin Steve to see who can type the longest post

 

[Bogtrotter07]

My Irish friends,
I’ve been lurking here…. . . . Old friends, former high school team mates, family members, etc. attend and play for different schools. You cannot really restrict them from communicating.

Bottom line here is that we are already actually pretty far along in the process. I’d be 99.9 percent sure Eddie will not be attending Notre Dame…and 90% sure he WILL be at UCLA. And I think it will all come down pretty quickly from here on out. I don’t think it’s my personal bias here…I think it should be pretty well universally acknowledged by those who know at least a bit about the case.
Good luck next season. Beat $C…

Steve, a chara,

Thank you for your information. Of course my experience was pre I-5 completion. I think the last time I was in California (voluntarily) was for one of my ex-wife's high school reunions. It was in Longbeach on the QM. We also flew up to see a friend in San Jose, that week. He now lives in Roseville, but we haven't been there.

That said, man, I can't get over airs that waft from your post. It is kind of like that cat with the canary eating smile. If you are a player, coach or players parent, good luck to you. If you are an average Bruin fan like many of the people on this site are Irish fans, Téigh go dtí ifreann! Sincerely. (That means go to hell.) Don't come to another site and lecture anyone from a position of moral superiority, when it is clear that you are insinuating that the team you favor broke the rules. It makes you look like, how can I say it? A scum bag, troll.

But thank you and coming and posting. I always wanted to know what kind of officious ungratified person would come and post at another site and act as a moral apologist, wrapping themselves in a cloak of moral superiority, and advanced wisdom.

Beir bua agus beannacht,

Bogtrotter.

 

[Rambler09]

ND has always offered 4-year scholarships. A commitment by an elite academic institution to grant you an undergraduate degree in return for athletic services is hardly a bad deal for the recruit.



ND doesn't do this, so it really isn't relevant to this argument.



Schools like ND, who don't take JuCos and rarely accept transfers, cannot easily replace athletes who suddenly decide they'd rather be elsewhere. The commitment goes both ways.



"Usually"? Very few athletes are released from NLOIs, and in virtually all of those situations, there are extenuating circumstances. To the best of our knowledge, there's nothing at work here but a "change of heart" by Eddie.



Not really. There are definitely some aspects of the NCAA system that are manifestly unfair to student athletes, but the NLOI isn't one of them. It's a basic contract, under which both parties provide consideration. A recruit would have a very hard time proving NLOIs are unconscionable, or getting an NLOI nullified on some other legal ground.



You're not a lawyer, are you? Because your understanding of the legal issues involved here is pretty poor.



There are many areas in which the NCAA would prefer to avoid legal scrutiny, but NLOIs aren't one of them.



As I mentioned above, ND very rarely accepts transfers, and never accepts JuCos, so we have a much greater interest in binding athletes to their schools than in facilitating their transfers. But then again, we don't tamper in the recruitment of athletes who have already signed NLOIs, so Mora's staff probably feels differently on this issue.

Fantastic post, Whiskey.

 

[irishpat183]

Plain and simple.....EV will go to UCLA, play there, and by his 3rd season...be watching bowl games from his dorm room as I bet my house that there is a scandal lurking.

But Mora will be back in the NFL by then.


EV, enjoy.

 

[Wild Bill]

There is an alternative. A recruit MAY actually sign a "Grant-in-Aid" agreement and be awarded an athletic scholarship. He would still hjave to deal with NCAA transfer rules once enrolled, but, in situations such as Eddie's, he would be free to NOT enroll and then go wherever he wants and be immediately eligible...

This is one of the main reasons that such releases are usually granted...or that the appeals are usually won...

The NCAA does not want to get into a legal battle over the enforceability of the Letter of Intent system.

Again (since someone again posted saying Notre Dame should "block" UCLA), there is an enforceability issue, legally, with restricting a release...AND there may be an enforceability issue with the LOIs as a whole. (Lots of other issues I won't get into here).

So, Eddie and his family had an option to sign a "grant-in-aid" but chose to sign the LOI instead? Doesn't that bolster ND's argument with regard denying his release?

The LOI is a binding agreement. It's simple offer, acceptance and consideration. ND offered, Eddie accepted and there was consideration. ND offered him one of their limited scholarships. They relied on him joining their team to their detriment (the scholarship could have been given to someone else). This is a valid contract, without any other facts. I think we can both agree if there were facts to void the contract, ND would have released him without a fight or the Vanderdoes family would have already gone public with the information.

 

[Emcee77]

The NCAA does not want to get into a legal battle over the enforceability of the Letter of Intent system.

Again (since someone again posted saying Notre Dame should "block" UCLA), there is an enforceability issue, legally, with restricting a release...AND there may be an enforceability issue with the LOIs as a whole. (Lots of other issues I won't get into here).

The NCAA does not want controvery on these issues. They want to manage there systems themselves...and that requires keeping themselves out of court--which would set REAL precedent.

There are a lot of lawyers on this board. You are going to have to do better than this if you want us to take you seriously. Innuendo isn't going to cut it.

 

[Bruin Steve]

Whiskeyjack,

First of all, I AM a lawyer--35 years of practice and counting...I don't think I need to give you my entire resume, but I have studied the NCAA rules and reguilations in detail for a few reasons...and I think my understanding of su8ch is a little better than that "poor" mark you threw out there...likely much better than your understanding...

As to Notre Dame only offering four -year scholarships...that is not true...
In PRACTICE, most schools typically renew most scholarships for the length of a player's college career provided they don't otherwise give reason for the schools to want to part ways...BUT LEGALLY, the papers that Notre Dame and EVERY other NCAA university uses to sign up the players commits the school to just ONE year...

As to Mora or UCLA "thinking differently", they DON'T...

UCLA relies, almost exclusively, on high school recruiting...Very few JC players going back many years...It is an extreme rarity...Not that many transfers as well--as I said, Mora has taken only the one in his tenure...Notre Dame has taken transfers as well (See Amir Carlisle)...The "holier than thou" attitude doesn't work...

And, again, UCLA DOES NOT 'tamper" with anyone else's players. If you have actual evidence of that, other than imagination or the repeated assumptions and assertions of disheartened Notre Dame fans, I'd love to see it.

Kids transfer for all sorts of reasons...or ask to be released from LOIs for all sorts of reasons...It doesn't require "tampering".

Eventually, we may or may not know exactly why Eddie Vanderdoes made this decision...but I certainly doubt it was because anyone representing UCLA contacted him after his signing with Notre Dame and convinced him to do so...He is certainly capable of coming to this conclusion without anyone having to tamper with him.

You have absolutely no basis to bring into question the ethics or integrity of anyone at UCLA based on ANY known facts in this case.

 

[Bruin Steve]

So, Eddie and his family had an option to sign a "grant-in-aid" but chose to sign the LOI instead? Doesn't that bolster ND's argument with regard denying his release?

Most recruits don't really know they have that option...Certainly none of the NCAA schools tell them that...It usually only comes up when a recruit does not sign within the LOI signing period...When that is over, the rules say they cannot sign an LOI...and that "grant-in-aid" becomes the only instrument that can be used.

 

[NDFAN22]

Bruinsteve get outta here you suck. UCLA will get there's in due time.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskeyjack,

First of all, I AM a lawyer--35 years of practice and counting...I don't think I need to give you my entire resume, but I have studied the NCAA rules and reguilations in detail for a few reasons...and I think my understanding of su8ch is a little better than that "poor" mark you threw out there... likely much better than your understanding...

Talk is cheap. Kindly demonstrate that superior understanding if you'd like to receive the benefit of the doubt.

As to Notre Dame only offering four -year scholarships...that is not true...
In PRACTICE, most schools typically renew most scholarships for the length of a player's college career provided they don't otherwise give reason for the schools to want to part ways...BUT LEGALLY, the papers that Notre Dame and EVERY other NCAA university uses to sign up the players commits the school to just ONE year...

If ND was in the habit of oversigning and pushing out underachievers (like many SEC schools), then your argument might have some merit. But it doesn't. Once a kid accepts a scholarship at ND, he'll graduate with a degree unless he either: (1) fails to hold up his end of the bargain (academics/ discipline); or (2) he decides to transfer. Yes, our recruits sign the NCAA-mandated NLOI, which technically only binds us to a 1-year scholarship commitment. But in practice, it's a 4-year commitment.

UCLA relies, almost exclusively, on high school recruiting...Very few JC players going back many years...It is an extreme rarity...Not that many transfers as well--as I said, Mora has taken only the one in his tenure...Notre Dame has taken transfers as well (See Amir Carlisle)...The "holier than thou" attitude doesn't work...

Notre Dame has taken only two transfers during Kelly's tenure, and were extremely rare prior to that.

I didn't reference our transfer and JuCo policy as evidence of our moral superiority. It's a serious disadvantage for us, but getting athletes past ND admissions isn't easy. Such is life as an Irish fan. But it's relevant to why ND has an interest in not releasing Vanderdoes from his NLOI; we can't easily replace players who suddenly decide they'd rather be elsewhere, so we have no interest in facilitating easier transfers and undermining the NLOI commitment.

And, again, UCLA DOES NOT 'tamper" with anyone else's players. If you have actual evidence of that, other than imagination or the repeated assumptions and assertions of disheartened Notre Dame fans, I'd love to see it.

Assuming Mora and his staff aren't complete idiots, there won't be any evidence, and you know that as well as I. We're hearing from our insiders that Kelly is furious with UCLA, and the Shell transfer is suspicious for several reasons that have already been discussed. As a fan, you'll understandably keep your head firmly in the sand on this issue, but stuff the moral outrage.

 

[IrishLax]

Let's talk about what the LOI actually DOES mean...

Interesting thing is that it is NOT to the benefit of the recruit...
Sooner or later, recruits will start catching on to this...

The LOI ONLY guarnatees the recruit a scholarship for ONE year (Most people assume it's for four, but, that is actually incorrect. The school can renew or choose to not renew each year)...
But the kid is penalized for a period that , in a way, exceeds that...After that Freshman year is up, the school can choose, unilaterally, to not renew...BUT, if the kid wants to go elsewhere, he is penalized with loss of eligibility.

There is an alternative. A recruit MAY actually sign a "Grant-in-Aid" agreement and be awarded an athletic scholarship. He would still hjave to deal with NCAA transfer rules once enrolled, but, in situations such as Eddie's, he would be free to NOT enroll and then go wherever he wants and be immediately eligible...

This is one of the main reasons that such releases are usually granted...or that the appeals are usually won...

The NCAA does not want to get into a legal battle over the enforceability of the Letter of Intent system.

Again (since someone again posted saying Notre Dame should "block" UCLA), there is an enforceability issue, legally, with restricting a release...AND there may be an enforceability issue with the LOIs as a whole. (Lots of other issues I won't get into here).

The NCAA does not want controvery on these issues. They want to manage there systems themselves...and that requires keeping themselves out of court--which would set REAL precedent.

In the end, I would not be at all surprised if Notre Dame completely dropped any challenge to the appeal. That would keep everything within the NCAA's purview and out of the judicial system.

As to "other coaches calling and urging Notre Dame to stand firm": I think that is complete bs...Coaches have all sorts of interest in these things--on both sides of the ledger...They WANT transfers AWAY from their rivals--and TO their schools...They DON'T want transfers AWAY from their programs and TO their rivals' schools... There are two sides to every coin...I doubt any coaches really care about calling Notre Dame and offering support one way or another...You think Kelly was calling SC to tell them to hold steady and not release Carlisle?

You're clearly here in good spirit and I've read all of your posts (even your giant wall of text OP) as I had to approve them because you're new and the content is fine. But you are sorely mistaken about a couple key aspects of the LOI and why this is a big deal. I'm also strongly inclined to believe that you haven't coached or played college sports.

To the first two lines I bolded.... OK, technically that is correct for SOME schools. But many schools now offer a 4 year scholarship on the LOI. And almost none just straight cut a kid. So you've really constructed a straw man and/or listen way too much to Jay Bilas. The LOI does benefit the athlete in a number of ways... the most obvious being that they are guaranteed that scholarship even if they get hurt, etc. after they've signed it. If they were just verbally committed and waiting to receive their scholraship when they eventually enrolled with no LOI in place there is a 4 month window for stuff to go wrong and for them to get dropped per standard operating procedure for many teams.

The next 4 bolded points all deal with winning appeals, supposed enforceability issues, etc.... very few people win appeals. Very, very few. There either has to be some sort of procedural error in the signing the LOI (like a forged signture, multiple signed LOIs, etc.) or a serious mitigating circumstance that develop after the fact (like the death of your parents and now you have to take care of 4 younger siblings) for an appeal to be won. It's really quite simple and there is no great controversy as your suggesting nor 'fear' from the NCAA about enforceability or anything of the like there just isn't.

To the last point... this is the most telling to me that you just really don't grasp what the core issue is here and haven't coached/played. Basically, the LOI (and subsequent contact rules) exist so that recruiting isn't the wild west. If you had kids free to transfer willy nilly and coaches could keep recruiting kids after they've picked a school to attend it would be utter chaos. Schools do care. A lot. They cared when Thomas weeks ago stated that he wanted out of FSU and their AD made a big statement about why it is a big deal. If you removed the LOI/contact rules then no one would have any idea what their roster was going to look like until kids actually attended the first practice. Do you understand why coaches would really care about that? It's pretty simple and obvious.

So thank you for the info and please continue posting. I appreciate your perspective. But you need to take a bit of a step back with regards to the actual mechanics of the LOI and why this is a big deal.

 

[ACamp1900]

Watch:

EV will get denied his release,... cooler heads will prevail, he'll show up in June, and UCLA fans will claim tampering.

 

[Cali_domer]

So do we really know any new information? I haven't been following since yesterday morning.

 

[ACamp1900]

So do we really know any new information?

Bruin Steve is a lawyer who has never coached or played big time football...

 

[Cali_domer]

Bruin Steve is a lawyer who has never coached or played big time football...

haha... So is it likely that Eddie's request to be denied?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

haha... So is it likely that Eddie's request to be denied?

Based on historical precedent, yes. The Vanderdoes family keeps referring to some extenuating circumstance that will absolve Eddie when it comes out, but our insiders are saying there's no such hardship here.

 

[IrishLion]

Give Niklas a $5000 gift card to China Buffet and move him back to DL.

yeah but he'll be hungry again in an hour.

I haven't been on much recently, though I've been keeping up with the EV situation via twitter. I stopped in and decided to read through all the info. I was bummed about the situation, but the above quotes have immediately made me feel better.

Next man in.

 

[arrowryan]

Even if he comes in and guts out a year at ND, I don't want him playing.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Even if he comes in and guts out a year at ND, I don't want him playing.

If he bites the bullet and shows up for camp, I bet he'll stick around. He picked ND for a reason. We just need a chance to remind him why.

 

[BeauBenken]

Freaking battle of the attorneys right now...

 

[IrishLion]

Wait, did GB leave the site?

 

[BleedBlueGold]

If he bites the bullet and shows up for camp, I bet he'll stick around. He picked ND for a reason. We just need a chance to remind him why.

I'd like to believe this, but there's a lot of speculation out there right now that EV and his family are really upset with ND. That doesn't necessarily support the opinion that ND can/will change his mind (again) and keep him for four years.

 

[woolybug25]

UCLA relies, almost exclusively, on high school recruiting...Very few JC players going back many years...It is an extreme rarity...Not that many transfers as well--as I said, Mora has taken only the one in his tenure...Notre Dame has taken transfers as well (See Amir Carlisle)...The "holier than thou" attitude doesn't work....

See... ya done made me come off my porch...

I could address all of the holes in every paragraph, but i'll focus on this. You are full of $hit...

Transfers
Fauria (ND)
Shaq Evans (ND)
Russel Shell (Pitt)
Brandon Willis (NC)
*just off of the top of my head

JUCO
Albert Cid - '11 (Citrus College)
Shawn Johnson - '09 (College of the Canyons)
Branden Warner - '09 (Compton CC)
Lester White - '09 (JW North)
Nick Eckbatani - '07 (LA Harbor CC)
Kevin Craft - '08 (Mt San Antonio CC)
Darius Bell - '10 (City College of San Fran)
Casey Griffiths - '10 (American River CC)
Alexandru Cheachir - '12 (Sana Monica CC)


So yeah... if you are really a lawyer, your fact checking skills would indicate that you aren't a very good one...

 

[NDdomer2]

Freaking battle of the attorneys right now...

haha we know one really is, the other, I'll say plausible.

 

[NDdomer2]

god i love when wooly leaves the porch.