Russia Invades Ukraine

[calvegas04]

The one's that are afraid of conflict with russia are the ones that would be willing to negotiate with russia if they were rolling down Main St USA to save the town/city instead of fighting.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Just trying to picture what we would do without NATO

One theory I read stated that the reason why Putin didn't try this during Trump's years is that Putin had a glimmer of hope that Trump would initiate a pullout of NATO (which is the main thing that Putin wants) so he chose to bide his time and see what happened. Who knows.

I think a lot of Americans would agree with some of Trumps stated concerns that it wasn't fair for the United States to have to pay a higher proportional share than Germany etc and to even potentially threaten that we would walk away if the threats resulted in more countries doing their fair share.

If Trump didn't get that, then I'm not certain what Trump would've done. Now that Putin has invaded Ukraine, he's strengthened NATO more than anyone could've imagined.

 

[NorthDakota]

The one's that are afraid of conflict with russia are the ones that would be willing to negotiate with russia if they were rolling down Main St USA to save the town/city instead of fighting.

Red Dawn isn't real.

 

[RDU Irish]

The one's that are afraid of conflict with russia are the ones that would be willing to negotiate with russia if they were rolling down Main St USA to save the town/city instead of fighting.

Yes, let emotions and ego drive our policy tough guy. Russia replacing Covid as the new bogeyman coming to kill you!

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Ukrainian Special Forces training

 

[PerthDomer]

The thing about sanctions is Russia generally exports raw material and imports finished goods. They won't be able to import chips. No cars/vehicles. They export crops and import a lot of finished food. Hell estimates are they won't be able to operate domestic flights in 3 weeks due to lack of parts. Additionally they can't even sell all their oil and what they can sell is going to China at discount. In about 2 to 3 weeks they'll either see hyper inflation or WW2 style rationing.

 

[PerthDomer]

Anyone here want to defend Turkey if they get attacked? No desire.

The deterrence of Turkey's size and knowing they're in NATO really stops that from happening.

 

[Bishop2b5]

The “rebuttal” is that unless you are going to remove Putin then you are eventually going to have to fight him somewhere and the cost gets higher every time you let him “succeed”. The sanctions don’t hurt him, they hurt his people. The sanctions don’t remove him from power. The sanctions do nothing to change the status quo, they just box him more into a corner where he becomes increasingly likely to do something desperate to retain his position.

I find myself somewhere between you and Whiskey on this. I tend to lean more towards your line of thinking, but Whiskey's right about us having to avoid a nuclear exchange.

 

[NorthDakota]

Ukrainian Special Forces training

I recall seeing Russian special forces training on a TV show probably a decade ago. Seen some of what our guys do. Its wild.

When I lived in Florida I used to work out at a air force base where some of the AF special forces guys were stationed. Watching a dude rip out pull-ups with 45 pound plates chained around his ankles is a pretty cool thing. Saw another guy maxing out the treadmill speed while reading a book lol. Like wtf.

Badassery knows no borders.

 

[irishog77]

I find myself somewhere between you and Whiskey on this. I tend to lean more towards your line of thinking, but Whiskey's right about us having to avoid a nuclear exchange.

Overall, I'm about 85-90% Team Whiskey, 10-15% Team Lax.

Lax really does bring up some great counterpoints, but the solutions, in reality, I think can only play out more disastrously.

Our country is now saturated with domestic policy that is unclear, inefficient, and expensive based on reactionary thoughts. In war, particularly one that may involve nukes, I don't want reactionary type action. I want conservative, well-discerned, and relative certainty of what our actions will evoke.

One thing I personally keep going back to in my head in how all this will play out is that putin has been in power about 20 years. I don't think he's all of a sudden changed his stripes and now become...hitler. He's also pushing 70. I think if his aims are to, essentially, restore the world order of 35 years ago and revive the russian empire and destroy the West, he would have started sooner or he knows it's probably now too late in his life to accomplish this. In other words, I don't know that there is a "next Ukraine" and am not too worried about him rolling into eastern Europe and central Asia.

 

[calvegas04]

Red Dawn isn't real.

Yes, let emotions and ego drive our policy tough guy. Russia replacing Covid as the new bogeyman coming to kill you!

Okay, comrade

 

[irishog77]

I recall seeing Russian special forces training on a TV show probably a decade ago. Seen some of what our guys do. Its wild.

When I lived in Florida I used to work out at a air force base where some of the AF special forces guys were stationed. Watching a dude rip out pull-ups with 45 pound plates chained around his ankles is a pretty cool thing. Saw another guy maxing out the treadmill speed while reading a book lol. Like wtf.

Badassery knows no borders.

Not being a smart ass, but are you sure this was an Air Force base, and not an Army or Marine installation? What you described isn't out of the norm for many soldiers and marines. A lot rarer for airmen though.

 

[Rack Em]

Not being a smart ass, but are you sure this was an Air Force base, and not an Army or Marine installation? What you described isn't out of the norm for many soldiers and marines. A lot rarer for airmen though.

What about seamen?

 

[notredomer23]

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Not being a smart ass, but are you sure this was an Air Force base, and not an Army or Marine installation? What you described isn't out of the norm for many soldiers and marines. A lot rarer for airmen though.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Russia mandates 1 year of service for all men between the ages of 18-27. A lot of these conscripts are teenagers who were basically drafted into service. War is hell.

 

[PerthDomer]

Overall, I'm about 85-90% Team Whiskey, 10-15% Team Lax.

Lax really does bring up some great counterpoints, but the solutions, in reality, I think can only play out more disastrously.

Our country is now saturated with domestic policy that is unclear, inefficient, and expensive based on reactionary thoughts. In war, particularly one that may involve nukes, I don't want reactionary type action. I want conservative, well-discerned, and relative certainty of what our actions will evoke.

One thing I personally keep going back to in my head in how all this will play out is that putin has been in power about 20 years. I don't think he's all of a sudden changed his stripes and now become...hitler. He's also pushing 70. I think if his aims are to, essentially, restore the world order of 35 years ago and revive the russian empire and destroy the West, he would have started sooner or he knows it's probably now too late in his life to accomplish this. In other words, I don't know that there is a "next Ukraine" and am not too worried about him rolling into eastern Europe and central Asia.

Putin's been assassinating enemies on foreign soil, attacking former soviet republics, putting down revolutions in nearby countries, spreading disinformation in Western countries and preparing his economy for a seige over the past 10 plus years. He just happens to have put together a piss poor military and the seige proofing of the economy didn't work. But he's been building to this moment for a while.

Luckily for us he's a river boat gambler and awful at strategy. Every move he's made on the ukraine has pushed them to unify and hate him. And now we're here.

 

[Wild Bill]

Putin's been assassinating enemies on foreign soil, attacking former soviet republics, putting down revolutions in nearby countries, spreading disinformation in Western countries and preparing his economy for a seige over the past 10 plus years. He just happens to have put together a piss poor military and the seige proofing of the economy didn't work. But he's been building to this moment for a while.

Luckily for us he's a river boat gambler and awful at strategy. Every move he's made on the ukraine has pushed them to unify and hate him. And now we're here.

We do the same.

 

[irishog77]

Russia mandates 1 year of service for all men between the ages of 18-27. A lot of these conscripts are teenagers who were basically drafted into service. War is hell.

For further context, you have to be 21 in the U.S. in all states to buy alcohol and now 21 to buy tobacco in most states (I think?). And if you live in L.A., you still go to juvie for crimes until you're 25.

Literal kids going to war.

 

[NorthDakota]

Not being a smart ass, but are you sure this was an Air Force base, and not an Army or Marine installation? What you described isn't out of the norm for many soldiers and marines. A lot rarer for airmen though.

Lol. Air Force operators are built different, not sure they are much different than seals or delta or whomever else. They sure didn't live up to the chAir Force jokes many of us (even my active duty coworkers) made.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We do the same.

As does China. Seems that having nukes makes you immune to invasion, and grants you license to effectively bully the (non-nuclear-armed or protected) nations in your near abroad.

If we had an all-out media blitz about the conditions in North Korea or China's brutal treatment of the Uighurs akin to what we're getting from Ukraine, would people be similarly motivated to toss caution to the win and declare war against those regimes? Genuinely asking here. My instinct is no.

 

[calvegas04]

As does China. Seems that having nukes makes you immune to invasion, and grants you license to effectively bully the (non-nuclear-armed or protected) nations in your near abroad.

If we had an all-out media blitz about the conditions in North Korea or China's brutal treatment of the Uighurs akin to what we're getting from Ukraine, would people be similarly motivated to toss caution to the win and declare war against those regimes? Genuinely asking here. My instinct is no.

If China goes after Taiwan or NK goes after South Korea then yes we should 100% come to their defense

 

[PerthDomer]

We do the same.

We assassinate noncombatants with radioactive waste and nerve agent? Trump never tried to have Biden killed. Etc etc.

We've done shady stuff in the past, but we're worlds different from Russia. One only need look at our tactics in Iraq vs. Their's in Syria. Or our aim to topple dictators vs. Theirs to keep them going. We make mistakes and do bad things, but we're not on Putin's level.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If China goes after Taiwan or NK goes after South Korea then yes we should 100% come to their defense

That's why I said "non-nuclear-armed or protected" nations. If Kim attacked South Korea, I'm certain we would respond directly (as we should).

I'm not 100% certain we actually would risk nuclear war with China over Taiwan, but I also think China is far less likely to make such a move, especially seeing now what's happened to Russia. They have far more to lose with their economic ties and growth potential.

But if the argument is "War crimes must be met with military force regardless of nuclear deterrents", then there are at least two other nations that we ought to start bombing as well.

 

[tussin]

If we had an all-out media blitz about the conditions in North Korea or China's brutal treatment of the Uighurs akin to what we're getting from Ukraine, would people be similarly motivated to toss caution to the win and declare war against those regimes? Genuinely asking here. My instinct is no.

No - probably because those atrocities are happening within the confines of their well-established and static (for now) borders. It’s the imperialistic nature of Russia invading a semi-Western democracy that has everyone uniquely upset.

 

[GATTACA!]

That's why I said "non-nuclear-armed or protected" nations. If Kim attacked South Korea, I'm certain we would respond directly (as we should).

I'm not 100% certain we actually would risk nuclear war with China over Taiwan, but I also think China is far less likely to make such a move, especially seeing now what's happened to Russia. They have far more to lose with their economic ties and growth potential.

But if the argument is "War crimes must be met with military force regardless of nuclear deterrents", then there are at least two other nations that we ought to start bombing as well.

On the sliding scale of importance Taiwan definitely ranks higher than Ukraine. Also China is an easier boogyman than Russia, who half of the right seems to admire.

 

[PerthDomer]

On the sliding scale of importance Taiwan definitely ranks higher than Ukraine. Also China is an easier boogyman than Russia, who half of the right seems to admire.

China desires stability. Russia's interest has been to create disorder to rile commodity markets. The Chinese are bad, but especially after this they're unlikely to launch an attack on our allies in East Asia for the near to medium term.

Heck, after Russia's implosion they'll probably focus on consolidating central asia/the middle east. That's fine in my book.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

No - probably because those atrocities are happening within the confines of their well-established and static (for now) borders. It’s the imperialistic nature of Russia invading a semi-Western democracy that has everyone uniquely upset.

That's fair. These borders haven't changed much over the last 80 years, though they changed pretty frequently in the centuries before that.

But surely this can't really be about our passion for the integrity of Ukraine's national sovereignty, right? Most Americans couldn't even locate it on a map.

On the sliding scale of importance Taiwan definitely ranks higher than Ukraine. Also China is an easier boogyman than Russia, who half of the right seems to admire.

Right on both accounts, though I'm still not sure it'd be enough for our leaders to risk trading nukes with China over. We've made a lot of security "guarantees" since the Iron Curtain fell that we probably aren't willing to follow through on.

 

[NEIIrish]

Why do people keep saying the right admires Putin? Everyone I know that is conservative hates Putin and his tactics.

 

[GATTACA!]

Why do people keep saying the right admires Putin? Everyone I know that is conservative hates Putin and his tactics.

I guess you haven’t had the displeasure of listening to anything from Carlson or Hannity. Trump also gargles Putins balls every chance he gets.