Bowl Game - Anyone else sitting out?

[Whiskeyjack]

I really don't want to care about the trend and then you remind me what's right is right. You're real good at that chit.

(Nice FOH drop at the end by btw, well played)

You could have just as easily dropped a Debbie Downer gif on me, or one of these:

Just wanted to get on record that I don't like the way this is trending. I'll drop it now. Back to your regular programming...

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this discussion has already evolved over the years. I've always thought the precedent was one of 1) sure fire first round pick, aka top 10-15 prospect or 2) top 2 or 3 at the position, aka running backs. If you don't fall into either of those buckets, you shouldn't declare and damn sure better not be sitting out the bowl game that you and your teammates worked so hard at achieving over the course of a year. KH falls into both buckets. I'm not sure Kyren does and I'm with Whiskey on this one. Kyren should be playing in this game. Call it old school, but I think it's a bad look and sets a bad precedent that your individual NFL goals trump the group team goals at ND suddenly when it's convenient for you.

 

[Wild Bill]

A lot to unpack here.

An injury during a game is an injury regardless of how it occurs. If you're shut down, you're shut down. Jaylon Smith was likely a first round pick and the only reason he turned out to be a second round pick was that Jerry Jones took a chance on him. The only other team that would act in such a manner is maybe the Raiders? Jaylon got really, really lucky. He's a cautionary tale not just for ND players but for all players alike.

Manti came back for his senior year only to wind up being catfished and went 38th overall in the second round. The 2012 Draft there were 33 LB drafted and five were taken prior to the 38th whereas in 2013 Manti was the third LB taken of 27 total. I don't know that going out for him at the time was a wise choice. He may have fallen further than 38th the year before and the ILB position is a lot like RB in this NFL. There isn't as much value there now as there is in edge rushers or DBs.

The flipside to running for 150 yards in the Fiesta Bowl is the OkSU defense completely shuts him down and that's the lasting impression scouts have of him prior to the Combine and workouts. I don't know that NFL scouts and front offices are going to put tremendous stock into one game when it comes to drafting a player. Is there more to gain or lose by KW playing in the Fiesta Bowl? The obvious answer is he has more to lose.

He's a team guy and he's got the balls. He needs to show he's got the brains and not take an unnecessary risk by playing in this game. Then he goes to the NFL and shows them he's not going to take unnecessary risks as a pro by making foolish choices when it comes to his body and his off the field activities. Brains and balls are for business. This is business. That's all it is. This is as much a part of his "forty year decision" as a degree that gets him some desk job when he's done playing.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/12/06/j...bowl-games-injuries-draft-mccaffrey-fournette

Still, even though he lost out on significant money, his rookie season, and risked the longevity of his career with such a serious injury, Smith says he doesn’t regret playing in the Fiesta Bowl. “Being a competitor and a captain of my Notre Dame team, it was important for me to go out the right way,” he says. “It was premiere game, the Fiesta Bowl vs. Ohio State. There was a lot of talent in that game. We all wanted to compete. So the decision I made to play in that game, I would make the same decision.”

Smith himself seems to disagree. I know this opinion is far from fashionable but I don't really give a shit that someone who made 50M missed out on a few more million b/c of some fluke injury. Yes, I felt bad for Jaylon on a human level b/c he had to suffer through this injury, but I feel nothing inside about the millions he "lost".

The reality here is that the risk of serious injury is negligible. There is risk but it's being overstated. Even if these guys get hurt, they're still going to make millions playing a game. Jaylon's injury was about as bad as it gets and he still grossed what, 50M? Forgive us all for not giving a shit about far off possibility that these guys may have to suffer through a contract that only pays them 10M and they weren't able to secure the 20M needed to feed the family.

I think the issue for many is that the proponents of players sitting out these games refuse to acknowledge certain things that are plainly obvious, namely that it is selfish and they are not fulfilling an obligation to their teammates. This is just true and remains true even if their teammates agree with their decision and it is the "better" decision for the player's own future success. There are consquences to this type of culture. Mabye they're not significant, maybe they are. Like Whiskey said. "Allowing individuals to put themselves above the team, for whatever reason, is the quickest way to destroy that culture. That's all."

I wish nothing but the best for both of these guys. They seem like good kids and they were fun to watch. It's just bizarre to me that we can't acknowledge the elements of selfishness here, even if we can fully understand why the decision was made. If I was Kyren's agent, I would advise him to sit the game out b/c that would be in my best interest. I wouldn't tell him that, though. I would tell him that it's in his best interest b/c he's about to get paid and doesn't owe anyone shit. If he was my friend or if my son was in this position I would tell that if it's about money and money alone, he should sit the game out. I would also tell him that he's going to regret not playing. That's as close to certain as my wife going over her budget. You can downplay the game as irrelevant all you want but it's not. It's a big game, it's his last game, he's beloved by fans and teammates and he's going to look back on this decision with some level of regret.

I would do some crazy shit to be able to play one more game, and I've never played in a game as meaningful as a Fiesta bowl. It's just how football players are wired. We're fucked up.

 

[IrishLion]

Having a healthy captain sit out of a big bowl game is a dangerous precedent to set. We can spin up all sorts of justifications to absolve Kyren now, but this will come back to bite us in the ass soon if it's normalized.

The only way I see such a precedent biting the team in the ass is if someone decides to sit out an extended timeframe, or if a difference maker decides his money is more important than a playoff game.

It could bite the team in the ass in the short term, like if Tyree or Diggs misses a blitz pickup that Kyren wouldn't have missed, but that seems secondary to the culture pitfalls... and I just don't see the culture being derailed by some highly-rated guys doing what highly-rated guys are doing more frequently these days.

 

[IrishLion]

Just wanted to get on record that I don't like the way this is trending. I'll drop it now. Back to your regular programming...

I would prefer if we would all continue to argue about it until we hate each other, as is my God given right as a frequent message board poster.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/12/06/j...bowl-games-injuries-draft-mccaffrey-fournette



Smith himself seems to disagree. I know this opinion is far from fashionable but I don't really give a shit that someone who made 50M missed out on a few more million b/c of some fluke injury. Yes, I felt bad for Jaylon on a human level b/c he had to suffer through this injury, but I feel nothing inside about the millions he "lost".

The reality here is that the risk of serious injury is negligible. There is risk but it's being overstated. Even if these guys get hurt, they're still going to make millions playing a game. Jaylon's injury was about as bad as it gets and he still grossed what, 50M? Forgive us all for not giving a shit about far off possibility that these guys may have to suffer through a contract that only pays them 10M and they weren't able to secure the 20M needed to feed the family.

I think the issue for many is that the proponents of players sitting out these games refuse to acknowledge certain things that are plainly obvious, namely that it is selfish and they are not fulfilling an obligation to their teammates. This is just true and remains true even if their teammates agree with their decision and it is the "better" decision for the player's own future success. There are consquences to this type of culture. Mabye they're not significant, maybe they are. Like Whiskey said. "Allowing individuals to put themselves above the team, for whatever reason, is the quickest way to destroy that culture. That's all."

I wish nothing but the best for both of these guys. They seem like good kids and they were fun to watch. It's just bizarre to me that we can't acknowledge the elements of selfishness here, even if we can fully understand why the decision was made. If I was Kyren's agent, I would advise him to sit the game out b/c that would be in my best interest. I wouldn't tell him that, though. I would tell him that it's in his best interest b/c he's about to get paid and doesn't owe anyone shit. If he was my friend or if my son was in this position I would tell that if it's about money and money alone, he should sit the game out. I would also tell him that he's going to regret not playing. That's as close to certain as my wife going over her budget. You can downplay the game as irrelevant all you want but it's not. It's a big game, it's his last game, he's beloved by fans and teammates and he's going to look back on this decision with some level of regret.

I would do some crazy shit to be able to play one more game, and I've never played in a game as meaningful as a Fiesta bowl. It's just how football players are wired. We're fucked up.

I agree with your points in the main but I don't think the bolded applies to Kyren. A third round contract is worth about $5 million and a Jaylon-esque injury probably turns his career earnings to $0.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

Have they both graduated? Gotta change the slogan to 3 for 40 if so. They both seem like fantastic kids, both captains of the team. I’m sure they did their research and determined this was the best course of action for them. Draft slots, especially for Hamilton mean million’s guaranteed . Selfishly I’d love to watch them play again but these decisions are the sign of a healthy football program with the type of talent that we want to see recruited.

 

[Rogue219]

I drag them, and I take issue with it. You can't expect loyalty if you're not willing to give it.



I economically disadvantage myself for the sake of duty all the time. This cynical posture of proclaiming everyone a whore is really tiresome.



It's a shitty trend, and I don't have to applaud the trickle down of this corruption from the top..

You drag them, and others do too. Not enough people do, especially those who matter in administrations and within the sports media. The coaching carousel has become an annual rite of passage that gets clicks and column inches. It's been normalized. Transfers and players opting out of bowl games still gives suburban voters the heebie jeebies. It's going to take some getting used to, but the idea that coaches are nomad carpet bagging job hoppers has been completely normalized. Even there, it's more about HOW they come and go that's probably being judged more.

I applaud your efforts. Not everyone is magnanimous as you, especially college football players with professional potential. If that's what is doing what's best for you, fine. That isn't everyone. Doing what is in your own best interests doesn't make one a whore. I think that's bullshit, and I don't judge or dismiss you "economically disadvantaging" yourself for whatever reason you feel you must do that. Kyren Williams is 21 years old and has options facing him athletically that a vast majority of people do not. I hope, for his sake, those are the most difficult choices he'll have to face in life when it comes to finances. He's making a decision that at the end of the day isn't incredibly important in the grand scheme of things. Millions of people could care less and probably won't even notice. It's a guy playing for Notre Dame, so to a degree it matters to us. In the end, I agree with his decision and still think the game can be won without him. If he has teammates that don't agree, that's their beef and they'll ultimately move on or not.

You say it's a shitty trend, I say it's a new one that we're not used to as an American sports culture. We have not seen college athletes have leverage or options to do things in their own best interests, and some choose to call it selfish. I don't agree, and even if some of their teammates have a problem with it, I doubt they would be willing to say so publicly.

 

[dad4aa]

New slogan…4 for 40 or 3 for $100M, set for life either way

 

[BAD LANDS]

What would you do if someone offered you a million dollars to stay home from work?

I would go to work because I care. RIGHT?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/12/06/ja...frey-fournette



Smith himself seems to disagree. I know this opinion is far from fashionable but I don't really give a shit that someone who made 50M missed out on a few more million b/c of some fluke injury. Yes, I felt bad for Jaylon on a human level b/c he had to suffer through this injury, but I feel nothing inside about the millions he "lost".

The reality here is that the risk of serious injury is negligible. There is risk but it's being overstated. Even if these guys get hurt, they're still going to make millions playing a game. Jaylon's injury was about as bad as it gets and he still grossed what, 50M? Forgive us all for not giving a shit about far off possibility that these guys may have to suffer through a contract that only pays them 10M and they weren't able to secure the 20M needed to feed the family.

I think the issue for many is that the proponents of players sitting out these games refuse to acknowledge certain things that are plainly obvious, namely that it is selfish and they are not fulfilling an obligation to their teammates. This is just true and remains true even if their teammates agree with their decision and it is the "better" decision for the player's own future success. There are consquences to this type of culture. Mabye they're not significant, maybe they are. Like Whiskey said. "Allowing individuals to put themselves above the team, for whatever reason, is the quickest way to destroy that culture. That's all."

I wish nothing but the best for both of these guys. They seem like good kids and they were fun to watch. It's just bizarre to me that we can't acknowledge the elements of selfishness here, even if we can fully understand why the decision was made. If I was Kyren's agent, I would advise him to sit the game out b/c that would be in my best interest. I wouldn't tell him that, though. I would tell him that it's in his best interest b/c he's about to get paid and doesn't owe anyone shit. If he was my friend or if my son was in this position I would tell that if it's about money and money alone, he should sit the game out. I would also tell him that he's going to regret not playing. That's as close to certain as my wife going over her budget. You can downplay the game as irrelevant all you want but it's not. It's a big game, it's his last game, he's beloved by fans and teammates and he's going to look back on this decision with some level of regret.

I would do some crazy shit to be able to play one more game, and I've never played in a game as meaningful as a Fiesta bowl. It's just how football players are wired. We're fucked up.

So I have some thoughts on this....

Jaylon was a generational talent at LB and by all accounts he worked his ass off in every aspect of his time at ND. He was a guaranteed top 5 pick prior to his injury. I'm not sure what that translates to in a difference btw Top 5 and 2nd round but I'd expect it to be significant. A non-generationally talent healthy or otherwise who isnt a 1st round pick should probably expect to maximize his abilities and earn as much as they can in a short time frame associated with the typical NFL career.

That being said JAylon was drafted by Dallas and they did so knowing full well he had year or more of rehab and would most likely not be at his highest level for years to come ( if ever). I followed Jaylon #ClearEyeView as he busted his ass again to get back to a level he could play at in the NFL. Jaylon was given every opportunity to succeed and he did make millions but I'd like someone to name another kid coming out of college with a significant injury given the opportunities he was offered by Dallas to make good on his talent. He was able to parlay a meager rookie contract into a large r long term deal basically off of one good season. All that being said, Jaylon has been released by Dallas and now by GB after 5 years in the league. Seems to me he'd be playing more years sans the injury but thats obviously hard to say.

If you arent a quarterback (who is generally given some time to mature and learn) or a generational talent with a team willing to give you years to rehab or reach your potential immediately then shouldn't maximizing your monetary opportunity professionally be the end goal given the knowledge it IS a very short window of opportunity? I should also add that Jaylon returned and finished his degree.

The average pro career for all positions but punters and Qbs is less than 4 years. That being said this should be given to any person thinking of leaving early:

"According to the NFL Players Association, NFL players with college degrees make between 20% and 30% more than players who left school early to enter the NFL. The NFLPA also reports that players with degrees have careers that last about 50% longer than those without degrees. This is because most NFL players need the time in college to mature."

 

[Wild Bill]

I agree with your points in the main but I don't think the bolded applies to Kyren. A third round contract is worth about $5 million and a Jaylon-esque injury probably turns his career earnings to $0.

Very low chance of happening, but I agree the risk is real.

If we're placing this great of an emphasis on risk assessment, why stop there? Why would any of these sophomores who are physical freaks play their junior year when the NFL is picking them in the first three rounds pending no arrests and a good showing at the combine. Just surround youself with bubble wrap and work out with some dude who preps you for the combine?

Perhaps it's to win a title. If that's it, let's say we get our doors blown off after week 1 agains OSU . Mayer has 150 and 2 TDs but says he's done for the year. Probably a smart move if you want to mitigate risk and make money. If Kyren is smart for choosing to avoid 40 snaps against Okie State, Mayer would be a galaxy brain to avoid 500 plus game snaps, plus practice.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I applaud your efforts. Not everyone is magnanimous as you, especially college football players with professional potential. If that's what is doing what's best for you, fine. That isn't everyone. Doing what is in your own best interests doesn't make one a whore. I think that's bullshit, and I don't judge or dismiss you "economically disadvantaging" yourself for whatever reason you feel you must do that.

This is the mindset I have a real problem with. There are all sorts of things that simply don't work well as naked commercial transactions: marriage, parenting, soldiering, etc. If your wife only tolerates you because she's economically reliant on you, what sort of marriage do you have? If your national defense depends on soldiers who only fight for you because you happen to be offering the highest pay (at the moment), how secure are your borders? There are a ton of things I won't do, regardless of how much money you offer me. Not everyone can be bought. That's nothing special about me, but the way things are supposed to work. Yet you frame it like I'm some old-fashioned moralizing freak for expecting a healthy captain to put his obligations to his teammates before whatever his self-interested slimy agent counseled him to do.

You say it's a shitty trend, I say it's a new one that we're not used to as an American sports culture. We have not seen college athletes have leverage or options to do things in their own best interests, and some choose to call it selfish. I don't agree, and even if some of their teammates have a problem with it, I doubt they would be willing to say so publicly.

Is it really new? We know exactly what a league full of mercenaries looks like. It's the NFL. The only thing that's new is that some have decided CFB will be better off turning into the NFL's semi-pro farm league. I am completely uninterested in that project.

I get that lots of athletes have been exploited by schools that had no intention of educating them, and that coaches have been the scummy salesmen leading the charge. But that's not ND. Our degree is enough for our student athletes, even if we're alone in that. And I'm not willing to blow up everything that makes CFB special because some social justice warriors can't get more creative in fixing the injustice than "Turn everyone into a 1099". Libertarian idiocy.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

What would you do if someone offered you a million dollars to stay home from work?

I would go to work because I care. RIGHT?

If you handed $50m tomorrow, I would continue practicing as a lawyer. Because it's what I do, and I enjoy helping people.

Most football players I've met would choose to play until they physically can't do it anymore. That's how they're wired. Comparing NDFB to some minimum wage job at Circle K makes zero sense.

 

[Irishbounty28]

Someone sitting out because of the financial
implications for themselves is “selfish”. These guys aren’t making this decision with the team in mind. I get why it’s happening, and there isn’t anything I can do about it, but wish there was more of an interest in finishing the job.

This isn’t a whole lot different from what BK just did, but there are a lot on here, including me, roasting him for his decision. BK’s decision was also selfish, in that he made a decision to benefit himself, including his family, financially.

I do, however, understand why the parties making these decisions are doing so, but I don’t have to like it. I didn’t like BK leaving for the reasons he did and I don’t like players sitting out bowl games to protect their draft stock.

 

[Rogue219]

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/12/06/j...bowl-games-injuries-draft-mccaffrey-fournette



Smith himself seems to disagree. I know this opinion is far from fashionable but I don't really give a shit that someone who made 50M missed out on a few more million b/c of some fluke injury. Yes, I felt bad for Jaylon on a human level b/c he had to suffer through this injury, but I feel nothing inside about the millions he "lost".

The reality here is that the risk of serious injury is negligible. There is risk but it's being overstated. Even if these guys get hurt, they're still going to make millions playing a game. Jaylon's injury was about as bad as it gets and he still grossed what, 50M? Forgive us all for not giving a shit about far off possibility that these guys may have to suffer through a contract that only pays them 10M and they weren't able to secure the 20M needed to feed the family.

I think the issue for many is that the proponents of players sitting out these games refuse to acknowledge certain things that are plainly obvious, namely that it is selfish and they are not fulfilling an obligation to their teammates. This is just true and remains true even if their teammates agree with their decision and it is the "better" decision for the player's own future success. There are consquences to this type of culture. Mabye they're not significant, maybe they are. Like Whiskey said. "Allowing individuals to put themselves above the team, for whatever reason, is the quickest way to destroy that culture. That's all."

I wish nothing but the best for both of these guys. They seem like good kids and they were fun to watch. It's just bizarre to me that we can't acknowledge the elements of selfishness here, even if we can fully understand why the decision was made. If I was Kyren's agent, I would advise him to sit the game out b/c that would be in my best interest. I wouldn't tell him that, though. I would tell him that it's in his best interest b/c he's about to get paid and doesn't owe anyone shit. If he was my friend or if my son was in this position I would tell that if it's about money and money alone, he should sit the game out. I would also tell him that he's going to regret not playing. That's as close to certain as my wife going over her budget. You can downplay the game as irrelevant all you want but it's not. It's a big game, it's his last game, he's beloved by fans and teammates and he's going to look back on this decision with some level of regret.

I would do some crazy shit to be able to play one more game, and I've never played in a game as meaningful as a Fiesta bowl. It's just how football players are wired. We're fucked up.

He didn't get any big money until 2019. He was incredibly fortunate and is the exception, not the rule, in terms of what Dallas did for him and how it worked out. Now it's 2021, he's 26 and not on a team. His career trajectory could have been significantly different had he never gotten injured, went in the first round and things were totally normal. Every individual body has a certain load it can bare in the NFL. This guy started off out of the gate sitting out a year with a knee that was torn to shreds.

I admire you steadfast conviction that this is selfish, obvious and wrong and that even if his teammates don't take issue with it too they're also wrong. I personally would lean more toward giving the coaches and players credit for their culture, because it really is theirs versus any fans or anyone not in that locker room. The idea that they can't have a strong and or positive culture coexisting with these types of NFL early entry scenarios isn't giving them enough credit. Let's see what the Freeman Era has to bring before we make that kind of assumption. You don't like it because it doesn't serve your interests as a fan. Hell, I want them to win a damn January game pretty damn bad, but I think they can do it without both of these guys BECAUSE I believe in their culture and the rest of the kids on that team.

There's a good chance both of these guys are feeling conflicted and torn, and there are levels of regret already before a final decision is even made and the game is three weeks away from being played. I'm not prepared to label a couple of twenty something amateur athletes selfish.

Maybe this is a prime example that football players are changing the way they're wired and aren't as fucked up as they used to be. Change is never easy.

 

[Rogue219]

This is the mindset I have a real problem with. There are all sorts of things that simply don't work well as naked commercial transactions: marriage, parenting, soldiering, etc. If your wife only tolerates you because she's economically reliant on you, what sort of marriage do you have? If your national defense depends on soldiers who only fight for you because you happen to be offering the highest pay (at the moment), how secure are your borders? There are a ton of things I won't do, regardless of how much money you offer me. Not everyone can be bought. That's nothing special about me, but the way things are supposed to work. Yet you frame it like I'm some old-fashioned moralizing freak for expecting a healthy captain to put his obligations to his teammates before whatever his self-interested slimy agent counseled him to do.

The mindset I have a problem with is because he's an athlete he somehow owes everyone else something. He's 21 years old and is making a decision relative to where he's at in life right now. It is as much about his football career as the money that could come with it. Even if there is a low risk he gets injured in that game, he has to weigh that himself, right? He knows his body at present, better than anyone including the trainers. It's a unique situation compared to most other environments. Robert Smith quit football because his coaches at Ohio State told him he focused too much on school and that was 30 years ago. Did he owe it to his teammates to continue on too?

Is it really new? We know exactly what a league full of mercenaries looks like. It's the NFL. The only thing that's new is that some have decided CFB will be better off turning into the NFL's semi-pro farm league. I am completely uninterested in that project.

Opting out of bowl games is a fairly new thing, yes. CFB has been the NFL farm league for a long time. That isn't new. The idea that they're "mercenaries" because they get paid to play football is open for debate, but the project you speak of was completed a long time ago. The NFL has one place to draw players from. College football.

I get that lots of athletes have been exploited by schools that had no intention of educating them, and that coaches have been the scummy salesmen leading the charge. But that's not ND. Our degree is enough for our student athletes, even if we're alone in that. And I'm not willing to blow up everything that makes CFB special because some social justice warriors can't get more creative in fixing the injustice than "Turn everyone into a 1099". Libertarian idiocy.

I listened to Marcus Freeman's opening presser and some of the interviews he's given. I think multiple things are going to exist at the same time. ND, what makes it special, it's culture, etc. are likely not going anywhere but there are going to be elements that will change and be different.

.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The mindset I have a problem with is because he's an athlete he somehow owes everyone else something. He's 21 years old and is making a decision relative to where he's at in life right now. It is as much about his football career as the money that could come with it. Even if there is a low risk he gets injured in that game, he has to weigh that himself, right? He knows his body at present, better than anyone including the trainers. It's a unique situation compared to most other environments. Robert Smith quit football because his coaches at Ohio State told him he focused too much on school and that was 30 years ago. Did he owe it to his teammates to continue on too?

Not everyone else. Just his teammates. Especially once you accept a captaincy, that honor comes with certain duties. As I said previously, I get the urge to absolve Kyren here, but all of these arguments (especially those around injury risk, the subjective significance of a skipped game, etc.) are extremely slippery slopes. Once you start letting individuals make those decisions at the expense of the team, it's very difficult to put that genie back in the bottle.

Opting out of bowl games is a fairly new thing, yes. CFB has been the NFL farm league for a long time. That isn't new. The idea that they're "mercenaries" because they get paid to play football is open for debate, but the project you speak of was completed a long time ago. The NFL has one place to draw players from. College football.

NCAA CFB isn't the only place the NFL has to draw talent from, just the most profitable. And I don't believe the project is completed, which is why I'm posting about it passionately here. There are still lots of decisions to be made about how to govern the FBS, how to fairly compensate players, to mitigate their risks, how and what to preserve of CFB's long and storied history, etc. The idea that the professionalization of CFB is a fait accompli is speaking a horrible prophesy into truth. There are other options, particularly once CFB gets out from under the corrupt NCAA and decides how to govern itself. Making sweeping declarations and fatalistic predictions before then is unhelpful.

I listened to Marcus Freeman's opening presser and some of the interviews he's given. I think multiple things are going to exist at the same time. ND, what makes it special, it's culture, etc. are likely not going anywhere but there are going to be elements that will change and be different.

We're especially vulnerable as the only independent with real history and some clout to throw around. Swarbrick, et al will ensure we have a voice at the table when the new governing body is being formed, but ESPN, the NFL, and others like them are interested in pushing this professionalization trend as far as possible before that happens. It's contrary to our interests.

 

[Wild Bill]

He didn't get any big money until 2019. He was incredibly fortunate and is the exception, not the rule, in terms of what Dallas did for him and how it worked out. Now it's 2021, he's 26 and not on a team. His career trajectory could have been significantly different had he never gotten injured, went in the first round and things were totally normal. Every individual body has a certain load it can bare in the NFL. This guy started off out of the gate sitting out a year with a knee that was torn to shreds.

I admire you steadfast conviction that this is selfish, obvious and wrong and that even if his teammates don't take issue with it too they're also wrong. I personally would lean more toward giving the coaches and players credit for their culture, because it really is theirs versus any fans or anyone not in that locker room. The idea that they can't have a strong and or positive culture coexisting with these types of NFL early entry scenarios isn't giving them enough credit. Let's see what the Freeman Era has to bring before we make that kind of assumption. You don't like it because it doesn't serve your interests as a fan. Hell, I want them to win a damn January game pretty damn bad, but I think they can do it without both of these guys BECAUSE I believe in their culture and the rest of the kids on that team.

There's a good chance both of these guys are feeling conflicted and torn, and there are levels of regret already before a final decision is even made and the game is three weeks away from being played. I'm not prepared to label a couple of twenty something amateur athletes selfish.

Maybe this is a prime example that football players are changing the way they're wired and aren't as fucked up as they used to be. Change is never easy.

How does this game benefit me and how much money am I going to make?

That about sums up the thought process behind the decision to sit out a game without any underlying health concerns. Yet you take thinly veiled shots at me for my steadfast conviction that this is selfish, as if I'm piling inference on top of inference to draw my conclusion. I'm just taking the defnition of the word and applying it to what is going on.

I should be the one who admires your steadfast conviction that this is not selfish. You have convinced yourself that selfish means something different or it simply cannot apply to these guys b/c you really like their decision.

I really don't care about the decision these guys have made but I still live in reality and words mean something.

People dont change much. Kyren will regret this decision later in his life, and that's fine. I regret many things. It's part of life.

 

[BeatSC]

Dang there is some serious discussion going on here! I just want to him play again with his name in his jersey and wearing green! Old school fans who watched Joe Theisman guy it out with a single bar facemask just don’t want to see this game as a business that comes first. Did Jaylon say he has regrets? Wouldn’t blame him if he did but he was also a captain and setting the example of a captain, i.e. team leader. I do agree with some who want to see the other RBs (Estime for me) for me get his Carries. Could Jack sit out too?

oh boy here it comes……

 

[Wild Bill]

If you handed $50m tomorrow, I would continue practicing as a lawyer. Because it's what I do, and I enjoy helping people.

Most football players I've met would choose to play until they physically can't do it anymore. That's how they're wired. Comparing NDFB to some minimum wage job at Circle K makes zero sense.

You have good opinions but I see you are phychologically damaged. Keep fighting the good fight, whiskey.

 

[NorthDakota]

You have good opinions but I see you are phychologically damaged. Keep fighting the good fight, whiskey.

If you have me $50 million right now I'd probably stick it out til I graduate in May...I might even sit for the Bar. After that...0% chance I'd use the degree.

 

[ND88]

As much as I like the Marcus Freeman hire, he openly admitted he entertained Kelly’s offer to LSU stating simply he needed a job. Why? Self-preservation and that of his family. What looked like a loyalty hire was scripted to the extent of his being promoted to a prestigious position that pays more. I’m sure he enjoyed his time as DC at ND, but it’s human nature to seek out opportunities and dreams. Kyren might have preservationist purposes. He might have a dream to play in the NFL. He certainly played through hurt multiple times in his career at ND. He knows the toll and now he’s aiming to collect. I see no problem. You can’t keep a kid from his dream.

 

[SBirishlawyer]

Its weird but for me if he wasn’t a captain it would bother me way less. Accepting the C kind of is enlisting to see it through. Also the constant mashing of of KW and KH happening here and everywhere else is bullshit. Apples and oranges. KH had a serious damn injury we all saw. If he played he would be months out of game action and probably not worth it. His is entirely understandable. If KW has nagging injuries or something understandable then i feel different. But “if” he is healthy it moved home from Notre Dame man to really good player in my boon. Like a mental going from Bettis to Rodney Culver vis a vis notre dame man standing.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/BGInews/status/1470786556931756034?s=20[/TWEET]

 

[Rogue219]

"My body is my business."

I hope both of these guys have zero regrets and pay no attention to the trolls on social media. Notre Dame is going to move forward as well. They'll win the game on January 1st and what will be will be. Nobody quit on anyone or did anything malicious.

Sun comes up again.

 

[NDPhilly]

"My body is my business."

I hope both of these guys have zero regrets and pay no attention to the trolls on social media. Notre Dame is going to move forward as well. They'll win the game on January 1st and what will be will be. Nobody quit on anyone or did anything malicious.

Sun comes up again.

I mean they quite literally quit (sorry "declared") before the season is over. Not like going to a bowl game was a surprise to anyone.

Love Kyren and Kyle but lets not sugarcoat this.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

Its weird but for me if he wasn’t a captain it would bother me way less. Accepting the C kind of is enlisting to see it through. Also the constant mashing of of KW and KH happening here and everywhere else is bullshit. Apples and oranges. KH had a serious damn injury we all saw. If he played he would be months out of game action and probably not worth it. His is entirely understandable. If KW has nagging injuries or something understandable then i feel different. But “if” he is healthy it moved home from Notre Dame man to really good player in my boon. Like a mental going from Bettis to Rodney Culver vis a vis notre dame man standing.

None of these guys are "healthy" at this point in the season. They all have various injuries, we just don't notice because they don't miss any game time. But I've been in the Gug training room early on a Monday morning and every time it seems like most of the two deep is in there getting various treatments.

 

[NDohio]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/BGInews/status/1470786556931756034?s=20[/TWEET]

Just finished Inside the Garage where these quotes came from. Two things stood out to me:

- He and Kyren spoke to the entire team about their decision. Kyle stated it was one of the most difficult things he has done.
- The other guys on the Podcast talked about how happy they are for Kyle and Kyren to be in the position they are in. They stated that the team to a man supports their decision.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Interesting quote. A lot hinges on what he means by "my business".

For instance: "It's time for me to leave ND and support myself, and my body is bu$ine$$, so I need to focus on the combine now" ... then there's not much to object to there.

But if it's: "My body is no one's business but my own, so I'll do whatever I determine is in my best interest"... then we have a problem.

Imagine a soldier telling his superior officer: "Sorry, Sarge. My body, my business."