Bowl Game - Anyone else sitting out?

[Rogue219]

Just finished Inside the Garage where these quotes came from. Two things stood out to me:

- He and Kyren spoke to the entire team about their decision. Kyle stated it was one of the most difficult things he has done.
- The other guys on the Podcast talked about how happy they are for Kyle and Kyren to be in the position they are in. They stated that the team to a man supports their decision.

Case closed.

At this point, if anyone doesn't wish to keep their powder and pants dry over it, that's his or her choice.

 

[phork]

Interesting quote. A lot hinges on what he means by "my business".

For instance: "It's time for me to leave ND and support myself, and my body is bu$ine$$, so I need to focus on the combine now" ... then there's not much to object to there.

But if it's: "My body is no one's business but my own, so I'll do whatever I determine is in my best interest"... then we have a problem.

Imagine a soldier telling his superior officer: "Sorry, Sarge. My body, my business."

Imagine all the false equivalencies.. I think John Lennon sang that once.
Sorry folks, the season is over, this is just icing on the cake, unless you are in the playoff.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Sorry folks, the season is over, this is just icing on the cake, unless you are in the playoff.

Imagine thinking that you can make this stupid assertion true by simply repeating it over and over again.

 

[Rogue219]

As much as I like the Marcus Freeman hire, he openly admitted he entertained Kelly’s offer to LSU stating simply he needed a job. Why? Self-preservation and that of his family. What looked like a loyalty hire was scripted to the extent of his being promoted to a prestigious position that pays more. I’m sure he enjoyed his time as DC at ND, but it’s human nature to seek out opportunities and dreams. Kyren might have preservationist purposes. He might have a dream to play in the NFL. He certainly played through hurt multiple times in his career at ND. He knows the toll and now he’s aiming to collect. I see no problem. You can’t keep a kid from his dream.

I didn't take this as an admission but as kind of a tongue in cheek part of the story he was telling. He was describing how everything started to go down initially when Kelly decided to leave.

 

[stpeteirish]

That quote from Hamilton makes me wonder if he could have played before now. After all his body is his business in November too.

Not PO’d about the decision but I expect the truth not BS.

Since Kelly is now clearly the king of misinformation I see his fingerprints on this.

 

[Rogue219]

It’s funny on the money thing. I’m old enough to remember Notre Dame getting heavily criticized when they signed the NBC contract. People were pretty mad at ND at the time. Paterno of course and I think Vince Dooley also had some harsh remarks. The lesson as always, money has always played a big role in college sports.

I'm old enough to remember 1996 when an 8-3 Notre Dame team didn't even bother going to a bowl but played a game in Ireland. Holtz resigned, but had they beaten SC the last game of the year and finished 9-2 they'd have likely gotten a "major" bowl invite. They'd have gone. As it stood, they said fuck it and didn't play another game.

Honestly, though, the 90s were pretty dope.

 

[phork]

Imagine thinking that you can make this stupid assertion true by simply repeating it over and over again.

Well, thats because it is. College football has changed. Build a bridge and get over it.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Well, thats because it is. College football has changed. Build a bridge and get over it.

Our last Fiesta Bowl appearance drew 13 million viewers and sold out State Farm Stadium's 63,400 capacity. It's a BIG GAME.

But that's not helpful to you in absolving a couple of 20 year olds from having made a selfish decision, so "not playoffs, doesn't matter." It's incredibly stupid.

 

[Rogue219]

Does it even matter that the rest of team supports these two guys and are cool with the decisions they've made?

Seems like regardless of which side of the discussion you're on, this is being overlooked if not totally ignored.

Hopefully whoever is around on the ND beat in 20 years finds a middle aged Kyren and Kyle to ask them if they have any regrets. Maybe they will. Of course by then, nobody will care because there will be handwringing to do about some recruit taking an official visit to Florida or something.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Does it even matter that the rest of team supports these two guys and are cool with the decisions they've made?

It does matter to me. My primary concern is team culture here, so I'm glad they did that, and I'm not really mad at either of them individually.

I still think it's setting a dangerous precedent, and I don't like where this trend will likely take us. At this point, the argument is mostly "Are there big games that don't have playoff implications" and "At what point does a player's desire to get paid supersede his duties to his teammates"? Both pretty abstract.

 

[Irish#1]

It does matter to me. My primary concern is team culture here, so I'm glad they did that, and I'm not really mad at either of them individually.

I still think it's setting a dangerous precedent, and I don't like where this trend will likely take us. At this point, the argument is mostly "Are there big games that don't have playoff implications" and "At what point does a player's desire to get paid supersede his duties to his teammates"? Both pretty abstract.

I'm bummed that they're not playing and TBH, sitting out to prepare for the combine is a BS reason. It's an excuse to justify the decision. Prepping for the bowl will keep them in shape and still allow enough time to work on the individual exercises to max out for the combine, which they do a lot of in the specialty routines with Balis. Even if the risk is low, just say you don't want to play out of fear of getting hurt.

Having said that, I'm not sure that a precedent has been sent or their actions will change the culture. The same thing was said back when McCaffery opted out, yet the wave of players doing this has been more of a trickle.

Bummed that they're not playing but I support their decision.

 

[Irishbounty28]

Not sure there is an argument to be made that the decision not to play in the bowl game isn’t selfish in nature. I mean the decision wasn't made to benefit anyone else but themselves. It certainly doesn't benefit the team. This is by definition selfish, but doesn't mean it wasn't a hard decision to make.

I'm sure it is a hard decision to make, but I am a very loyal person, probably to a fault. I volunteered to deploy a third time while serving in the military just so my guys didn't go back without senior leadership after tremendous attrition. Before anyone says anything, I know that decision was missing the key piece of millions of dollars, but it wasn't without severe risk to myself. There are many I was in with who chose not to deploy again, which ultimately revolved around the loss of life potential, and I didn't think less of them. I do know a lot of those same guys look back today, and wish they would have made a different decision.

I think what the hangup is for most people is that both these guys are leaders on the team, and chose to put themselves first. That's great for their future, and I get the decision, but let's not try to act like it wasn't for selfish reasons. Again, they are free to make their own decisions, but people don't have to agree with them.

 

[Rogue219]

It does matter to me. My primary concern is team culture here, so I'm glad they did that, and I'm not really mad at either of them individually.

I still think it's setting a dangerous precedent, and I don't like where this trend will likely take us. At this point, the argument is mostly "Are there big games that don't have playoff implications" and "At what point does a player's desire to get paid supersede his duties to his teammates"? Both pretty abstract.

I mean, you've called a couple of college football players in their early twenties selfish multiple times. That's kinda mad. They're pro prospects. If this was Kevin Austin, I'd be inclined to say maybe they should drug test.

Culture to me would probably have to include not shaming guys who decide to become former players in this manner going forward. What Mike Leach said over the weekend about players opting out of bowl games is fantastic bulletin board recruiting material for everyone who is going to recruit players that have offers from Mississippi State now. Notre Dame needs to be unique, and they will, but they need to be unique in the way of 2022 and not 1982. Not adapting is exactly that got this program to fall so far behind the pack. You hold certain standards, always, but you have to roll with some of the punches the present and future throw at you so that you don't lack the flexibility to achieve your goals. If they're rigid and obtuse, they may have failed in THEIR duty when it comes to leading the program.

If Marcus Freeman increases the talent level via recruiting as head coach, we are going to see similar types of scenarios play out in the future. We may also see less scenarios if there is playoff expansion. I think he and Rees understand what this is going to take moving forward and they ultimately know how to delicately handle these situations. They get paid to worry about this kind of thing. Freeman addressed it the other day, the kids are good with it, so who is getting on the plane needs to get ready for T. Boone Pickens State.

I speak from experience, there are far worse situations that can flood a locker room with shit than this. I've seen it as a player and coach at multiple levels. Not P5 or NFL, but it happens over far more serious and important issues than a couple of pro prospects skipping the Fiesta Bowl.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I mean, you've called a couple of college football players in their early twenties selfish multiple times. That's kinda mad. They're pro prospects. If this was Kevin Austin, I'd be inclined to say maybe they should drug test.

I was actually very careful not to call either Kyle or Kyren "selfish" until a single post earlier today, which didn't mention either of them by name. But posts like the one by Irishbounty above and a couple by WildBill yesterday made me question why we were beating around the bush. Just call it what it is.

As I've said many times, Hamilton has already missed most of the season, so his decision to sit as a likely top-5 pick isn't problematic at all. Kyren though, as a healthy captain who's likely grading as a mid-round pick, is different. These are the first two ND players to ever voluntarily sit out a bowl. That's significant, and not in a good way.

I'm not suggesting that ND implement a strict policy against this. Maybe it's unavoidable given the level of competitiveness we're seeking. But it's not a good thing. In a better world, we wouldn't have healthy leaders opting out of big games for money.

 

[RDU Irish]

Not everyone else. Just his teammates. Especially once you accept a captaincy, that honor comes with certain duties. As I said previously, I get the urge to absolve Kyren here, but all of these arguments (especially those around injury risk, the subjective significance of a skipped game, etc.) are extremely slippery slopes. Once you start letting individuals make those decisions at the expense of the team, it's very difficult to put that genie back in the bottle.



NCAA CFB isn't the only place the NFL has to draw talent from, just the most profitable. And I don't believe the project is completed, which is why I'm posting about it passionately here. There are still lots of decisions to be made about how to govern the FBS, how to fairly compensate players, to mitigate their risks, how and what to preserve of CFB's long and storied history, etc. The idea that the professionalization of CFB is a fait accompli is speaking a horrible prophesy into truth. There are other options, particularly once CFB gets out from under the corrupt NCAA and decides how to govern itself. Making sweeping declarations and fatalistic predictions before then is unhelpful.



We're especially vulnerable as the only independent with real history and some clout to throw around. Swarbrick, et al will ensure we have a voice at the table when the new governing body is being formed, but ESPN, the NFL, and others like them are interested in pushing this professionalization trend as far as possible before that happens. It's contrary to our interests.

I think NIL can change the RB spot particularly. Making some good money in college makes it a lot easier to defer on that NFL dream that you likely wash out of in two years anyway. Say Kyren had $1M in NIL deals to come back with upside of $2-$3M if he competes for the Heisman for example - makes it a lot easier to Love Thee Notre Dame and in the case of kids who do not have the same NFL upside/longevity it becomes a compelling "bird in the hand".

 

[ACamp1900]

It’s definitely selfish by definition,… but we have this default that being selfish is always bad, it’s not… and I’m not seeing much issue with either of their decisions,… good luck to them

 

[RDU Irish]

I'm old enough to remember 1996 when an 8-3 Notre Dame team didn't even bother going to a bowl but played a game in Ireland. Holtz resigned, but had they beaten SC the last game of the year and finished 9-2 they'd have likely gotten a "major" bowl invite. They'd have gone. As it stood, they said fuck it and didn't play another game.

Honestly, though, the 90s were pretty dope.

I hated that finish - supposedly the team voted they were "too good" for the crappier bowls they were offered.... no you lost too much so you aren't that good hot shots. Should want to play again and take your frustrations out on the "lesser opponent" to prove you deserve better. Did not like the quit in that team.

 

[ND88]

I didn't take this as an admission but as kind of a tongue in cheek part of the story he was telling. He was describing how everything started to go down initially when Kelly decided to leave.

Possibly. I mean, I didn’t mind his honesty. It was actually refreshing. Most coaches could have politicized that moment to gain favor from the team and fanbase. He just told it like it was.

 

[phork]

Our last Fiesta Bowl appearance drew 13 million viewers and sold out State Farm Stadium's 63,400 capacity. It's a BIG GAME.

But that's not helpful to you in absolving a couple of 20 year olds from having made a selfish decision, so "not playoffs, doesn't matter." It's incredibly stupid.

Its not. You get paid whether you win or not. TV viewers will watch regardless, maybe not as many because this OSU is not tOSU. If you aren't in the playoff it is just some extra practices and a chance to compete on a bigger stage than the Outback bowl.

I am sorry that you feel betrayed by 20somethings trying earn a paycheck before their bodies break down, sounds like a you problem.

 

[Rogue219]

 

[zelezo vlk]

Pissing their panties, I tell ya!

 

[dublinirish]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/mattcharboneau/status/1471572865690619908?s=20[/TWEET]

 

[BeatSC]

Hamilton could have played a couple of games but the D was looking fine without him and we were getting good development out of the new guys so I think Kelly said F it let him sit out.

 

[BeatSC]

Hope Hamilton goes top 5 but every time someone predicts our guys high in the draft they drop 20 spots. I say around 15 and early 4th for Kyren.

 

[tussin]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/kennypickett10/status/1471659281841799169?s=20[/TWEET]

Pitt’s biggest bowl game since Marino and their Heisman finalist captain opts out. What a joke.

 

[SBirishlawyer]

The ruination of this sport has hit lightning speed

 

[Sea Turtle]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/kennypickett10/status/1471659281841799169?s=20[/TWEET]

Pitt’s biggest bowl game since Marino and their Heisman finalist captain opts out. What a joke.

Hey, it's not the playoff so the game doesn't count.

 

[ACamp1900]

Hey, it's not the playoff so the game doesn't count.

no one could have predicted this tho,………..

 

[ab2cmiller]

How long till we have Freshman and Sophomores refusing to play in these "exhibition" games so that they can protect their potential NIL deals for the following year.

 

[NDRock]

How long till we have Freshman and Sophomores refusing to play in these "exhibition" games so that they can protect their potential NIL deals for the following year.

When you opt out you’re essentially putting in your two week notice and quitting. Not my favorite thing but it’s their decision. Would be hard to quit for a game here and there. Can’t see that ever really happening on a normal basis.