2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Whiskeyjack]

1. It presupposes that Trump and Clinton's presidential incompetence would be equal. If you're of the opinion that Trump and Clinton are both incompetent but Clinton is more incompetent, then it doesn't matter whose ideology gets blamed for the incompetence.

Yes, for the exact reason Dougherty outlines. Hillary offers the same sort of status quo globalist mismanagement we got under Obama and Bush. She would continue to discredit that ideology, and populists from both the Left and the Right would continue to surge. Trump's incompetence, on the other hand, would likely permanently tarnish the emerging new nationalism.

And I don't think there's an objective case to be made that Trump is likely to be more competent than Hillary. A vote for the Golden Don is a vote to burn down the Establishment, which is a sentiment I can definitely support; but it's not a vote for stability or good governance. Dougherty's argument is that a Trump presidency will likely end up burning down many other things as well, some of which the new nationalists probably don't want to see destroyed.

2. It carries a connotation that the damage done over the next four to eight years is temporary. I reject the notion that preserving credibility for 2020 or 2024 is worth the damage that can be done in the mean time.

So the movement would be better off just exploding on the launch pad?

3. The last eight years have proven that progressive policies never get blamed for anything, largely because the Left controls both the media and the pop culture. Whenever anything goes wrong, it's blamed on conservatism. If the problem is clearly the fault of progressivism, it's because a policy wasn't progressive enough to be successful. If Hillary fails, the reaction will not be "maybe we should try conservative nationalism," it'll be "we should have tried Bernie's socialism."

The corruption of our media is a big driver behind this new nationalism and the discrediting of the globalist status quo. The Sanders and Trump campaigns are animated by the same sort of populist energy. We're in the midst of a major political realignment which is affecting the entire Western world. For those who oppose the globalism of Bush and Clinton, this nascent political movement is far too important to risk handing over to Trump.

And in case you didn't notice, when the chips were down, Conservatism, Inc. had very little purchase within the GOP. It's the same bullsh!t globalist consensus that owns the DNC.

 

[wizards8507]

Mike Pence is an imbecile. I also have a hard time believing that Trump will outsource policy to anyone. He'll outsource the groundwork, but his platform will be his alone.

What do you think about Kaine? I do think that Hilldog will outsource everything. She doesn't actually care about the day to day governing. Kaine will be pulling the strings here.

If Kaine were at the top of the ticket, I'd probably vote D. I disagree with your assertion that HRC will be giving up any control whatsoever.

 

[woolybug25]

If Kaine were at the top of the ticket, I'd probably vote D. I disagree with your assertion that HRC will be giving up any control whatsoever.

When in her governing has she shown that she was a hands on politician?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

When in her governing has she shown that she was a hands on politician?

Information Technology?

 

[IrishLion]

Mike Pence is an imbecile. I also have a hard time believing that Trump will outsource policy to anyone. He'll outsource the groundwork, but his platform will be his alone.

What do you think about Kaine? I do think that Hilldog will outsource everything. She doesn't actually care about the day to day governing. Kaine will be pulling the strings here.

I kind of thought it would be the total opposite... I don't view Trump as a guy that has the ability to actually do the job at all. I just figure that he'll let everyone else (with actual experience and knowledge of the political world) do the actual work if he wins the election.

 

[Shamrock Theories]

The way I figure, Clinton is detestable and so are her surrogates. Trump is detestable, but Mike Pence seems like an okay dude and I expect Trump to outsource policy to him.

....................

Lmao

 

[woolybug25]

Information Technology?

Ha. Reps

 

[wizards8507]

Yes, for the exact reason Dougherty outlines. Hillary offers the same sort of status quo globalist mismanagement we got under Obama and Bush. She would continue to discredit that ideology, and populists from both the Left and the Right would continue to surge. Trump's incompetence, on the other hand, would likely permanently tarnish the emerging new nationalism.

And I don't think there's an objective case to be made that Trump is likely to be more competent than Hillary. A voter for the Golden Don is a vote to burn down the Establishment, which is a sentiment I can definitely support; but it's not a vote for stability for good governance. Dougherty's argument is that a Trump presidency will likely end up burning down many other things as well, some of which the new nationalists probably don't want to see destroyed.

So the movement would be better off just exploding on the launch pad?

The corruption of our media is a big driver behind this new nationalism and the discrediting of the globalist status quo. The Sanders and Trump campaigns are animated by the same sort of populist energy. We're in the midst of a major political realignment which is affecting the entire Western world. For those who oppose the globalism of Bush and Clinton, this nascent political movement is far too important to risk handing over to Trump.

I'm not sure about the cause-and-effect relationship you're identifying here. I think the Trump and Sanders movements were much more about Trump and Sanders than they were about right-populism and left-populism. In other words, I don't think there is a movement without Trump, so those that are drawn to the movement in general are probably better off riding or dying with the Orange God King.

Besides, I happen to like globalization (not globalism, there's a difference). The nuances between the two are too complex for the average voter to ever understand.

 

[dshans]

I can see what you are inferring but I think that's a stretch.

Just a quick note from your friendly resident Grammar Putz, verity aside:

Le Wiz would or could or might be implying

You, gk, would be the one inferring.

Just trying to lighten up the pissing match.



Should I get out my stopwatch, calibrated bucket and tape measure?

 

[phgreek]

When in her governing has she shown that she was a hands on politician?

Just when it benefits her...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0

 

[dshans]

Also interesting is the distribution of IE premium members.

But, but, but ... you choose to ignore we hardscrabble, hard working peons who are NOT Premium Members?

I proudly count myself as part of the free-loading 99%!

 

[woolybug25]

I kind of thought it would be the total opposite... I don't view Trump as a guy that has the ability to actually do the job at all. I just figure that he'll let everyone else (with actual experience and knowledge of the political world) do the actual work if he wins the election.

So he'll just let someone else figure out the financials of building a $25B wall? He'll let someone else draft an "Illegal immigrant roundup Bill" and slap his name on it? He'll let everyone else make decisions that his reputation will stand on? When has that ever been Trump?

Hilldog on the other hand, has delegated her entire career. It has always been just about power for her. The people around her will write policy, etc. I mean, someone pouring over details doesn't let the email hack, the server controversy or Bengahzi happen. She is an empty suit. Which in this case, is better than one filled with an orange stained Trump.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm not sure about the cause-and-effect relationship you're identifying here. I think the Trump and Sanders movements were much more about Trump and Sanders than they were about right-populism and left-populism. In other words, I don't think there is a movement without Trump, so those that are drawn to the movement in general are probably better off riding or dying with the Orange God King.

Not sure how that view can survive a brief recap of European politics over the last 10 years-- Brexit in the UK, the rise of the National Front in France, etc. The US is just now catching up with trends that have been progressing across the Atlantic for years. The major political divide won't be a socialist left v. a capitalist right anymore, but a globalist left v. a nationalist right.

Besides, I happen to like globalization (not globalism, there's a difference). The nuances between the two are too complex for the average voter to ever understand.

Would love to hear your justification for that in the Economics thread. If you like globalization, Clinton is your candidate this year.

 

[gkIrish]

Just a quick note from your friendly resident Grammar Putz, verity aside:

Le Wiz would or could or might be implying

You, gk, would be the one inferring.

Just trying to lighten up the pissing match.



Should I get out my stopwatch, calibrated bucket and tape measure?

This is the first time in 5 years that you have corrected me so I proudly thank you and promise to do better in the future.

 

[wizards8507]

Not sure how that view can survive a brief recap of European politics over the last 10 years-- Brexit in the UK, the rise of the National Front in France, etc. The US is just now catching up with trends that have been progressing across the Atlantic for years.

American voters aren't UK voters.

The major political divide won't be a socialist left v. a capitalist right anymore, but a globalist left v. a nationalist right.

Except there's no intellectual heft on the globalist left or the nationalist right. The leftists in the universities are borderline isolationists, except for the MBA professors who are all global capitalists.

Would love to hear your justification for that in the Economics thread. If you like globalization, Clinton is your candidate this year.

You've already dismissed my argument as "cheaper knick-knacks" at Walmart" so unless you've reconsidered your position, I don't see any need to re-litigate the benefits of division of labor.

 

[ND NYC]

Who do you guys think this Johnson peels votes from: Clinton or Trump?

 

[IrishLion]

So he'll just let someone else figure out the financials of building a $25B wall? He'll let someone else draft an "Illegal immigrant roundup Bill" and slap his name on it? He'll let everyone else make decisions that his reputation will stand on? When has that ever been Trump?

Oh no, those are things that only that moron will realistically try to "work" on.

I meant the ACTUAL job, and the realistic things that the president deals with on a day-to-day behind the scenes... the Donald doesn't strike me as a guy that will want to (or even knows how to) do the "little" things that a president needs to do.

Of course, every president delegates things. But I just get the feel that the Donald will take things to a new level, and will be the public face of the office only, and won't know how to realistically do a damn thing.

BUT, perhaps you're right... dude's ego is too large. He'll just try to do everything himself, f*ck it all up, and make a general mockery of the office and our country in general.

(Or am I just under-selling the Donald's capabilities?)

 

[wizards8507]

Who do you guys think this Johnson peels votes from: Clinton or Trump?

Trump. Not because he's much like Trump, but because he's more like Cruz/Rubio/Kasich than he is like Bernie.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Information Technology?

Ha!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[ND NYC]

Trump. Not because he's much like Trump, but because he's more like Cruz/Rubio/Kasich than he is like Bernie.

will be watching this closely, these 3rd party candidates, with even a low % of votes if in the "right electoral states" can swing our national elections if they get on thee ballot.
Ross Perot cost Bush Sr the 92 election and Ralph Nader cost Gore the 2000 election.

 

[Wild Bill]

I'm sympathetic to some elements of Trumpism, but I can hardly imagine of a worse candidate to champion it.

I think it's fair to criticize his approach but we can't ignore that he was the only candidate who wasn't afraid to discuss immigration. IMO, that's the real driving force behind his popularity. The rest of the fools on the right were either too interested in appeasing donors or too out of touch to realize the importance of the issue. The only option often becomes the best option.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Our kids are watching. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/DemsInPhilly?src=hash">#DemsInPhilly</a> <a href="https://t.co/ifHlFZgp6W">pic.twitter.com/ifHlFZgp6W</a></p>— The Democrats (@TheDemocrats) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheDemocrats/status/757759658597711873">July 26, 2016</a></blockquote>
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How in the world was that racist?

That lil boy is literally Hitler and Okie dokie in chief is bowing

 

[connor_in]

This is the first time in 5 years that you have corrected me so I proudly thank you and promise to do better in the future.

He PMs me corrections on you all the time with gifs of people just shaking their heads. He is just devious enough that he generally doesn't want you to know and like Hulk out on him 'n stuff

 

[dshans]

He PMs me corrections on you all the time with gifs of people just shaking their heads. He is just devious enough that he generally doesn't want you to know and like Hulk out on him 'n stuff

I have a v-lawyer on speed dial.

I may or may not v-sue.

That's dependent on his or her v-opinion and/or v-advice.

You'd be wise to ship your v-bucks to some anonymous v-bank in Panama ...

 

[connor_in]

I have a v-lawyer on speed dial.

I may or may not v-sue.

That's dependent on his or her v-opinion and/or v-advice.

You'd be wise to ship your v-bucks to some anonymous v-bank in Panama ...

Its OK...I have the emails...or I might Have lost them on my private server if I was careless.

 

[dshans]

Its OK...I have the emails...or I might Have lost them on my private server if I was careless.

So you're admitting to having Debbie Wasserman Schultz on your" team?"



Or was that something implied?

Or something I inferred?



Rational or irrational is of no concern in this cat and mouse game!!!

 

[GATTACA!]

Trump. Not because he's much like Trump, but because he's more like Cruz/Rubio/Kasich than he is like Bernie.

I disagree. Every poll I've seen has Trump preforming better in a 3 or 4 candidate race vs head to head.

 

[connor_in]

So you're admitting to having Debbie Wasserman Schultz on your" team?"



Or was that something implied?

Or something I inferred?



Rational or irrational is of no concern in this cat and mouse game!!!

My cat's name is Schroedinger and he lives in a closed box...he may be rational or irrational right now...I do not know.

 

[GATTACA!]

This is the first time in 5 years that you have corrected me so I proudly thank you and promise to do better in the future.

What the heck? I correct you all the time in multiple threads and I never get a thank you?

 

[connor_in]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Why would the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/DemsInPhilly?src=hash">#DemsInPhilly</a> choose something that looks like emails for a background?? <a href="https://t.co/HIUzKWBZ15">pic.twitter.com/HIUzKWBZ15</a></p>— Mason Harrison (@masonharrison) <a href="https://twitter.com/masonharrison/status/757765777097318400">July 26, 2016</a></blockquote>
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