Game of Thrones

Whiskeyjack

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I can't remember so forgive me: Has there been any direct proof of the actual existence of any Gods besides the Lord of Light in the books/show? (To the extent supernatural events can show proof of divine influence in a world where magic is performed by mortals.)

In my mind the Rightous Red has the most direct proof that their deity is a real interested party thus far. But I'm probably forgetting something obvious from the books.

If you're willing to accept magic as proof of a corresponding deity, then there's also plenty of evidence for the Old Gods. And depending on what you think of Patchface, there may also be some evidence in support of the Lovecraftian Drowned God.

The only gods in Martin's world for which no real evidence exists are The Seven.
 

Whiskeyjack

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So we're operating under the premise that R'hllor is real?

Who knows? GRRM has refused to shed any light on the subject. The cult of R'hllor clearly has access to supernatural powers, and they attribute that power to a personal deity named R'hllor. Maybe GRRM has some naturalistic explanation for how magic works without recourse to gods; but if he does, he hasn't even hinted as much thus far; which, given the way he's written the series to date, is strong circumstantial evidence against that theory.
 

greyhammer90

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If you're willing to accept magic as proof of a corresponding deity, then there's also plenty of evidence for the Old Gods. And depending on what you think of Patchface, there may also be some evidence in support of the Lovecraftian Drowned God.

The only gods in Martin's world for which no real evidence exists are The Seven.

I suppose I don't necessarily automatically equate magic as proof of a corresponding deity. The difference is in intent. For example, when a CotF does a spell, I don't immediately assume that they are getting that power from the Old Gods. I also don't assume that Melisandre birthing a shadow is the work of the Lord of Light. These are things that mortals who have been trained in magic are willing. So though this confirms that the world has a supernatural element, it does not necessarily equate to a real intelligent "being" with thoughts and feelings and personal interests. Magic could just be a force of nature in this world.

But the Lord of Light (if I recall correctly) is different than any other God so far. The main difference here is that he seems to talk to people whether they want him to or not. His speaking doesn't appear to be the outcome of a spell or ritual. If it was just red priest/ess who heard him I wouldn't pay it any attention. But now there have been several people who do not believe in him who have all heard his voice. So unless this is some kind of parlor trick or unrelated coincidence, it appears that he's real and is somewhat interested in the happenings of the world.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I suppose I don't necessarily automatically equate magic as proof of a corresponding deity. The difference is in intent. For example, when a CotF does a spell, I don't immediately assume that they are getting that power from the Old Gods. I also don't assume that Melisandre birthing a shadow is the work of the Lord of Light. These are things that mortals who have been trained in magic are willing. So though this confirms that the world has a supernatural element, it does not necessarily equate to a real intelligent "being" with thoughts and feelings and personal interests. Magic could just be a force of nature in this world.

But the Lord of Light (if I recall correctly) is different than any other God so far. The main difference here is that he seems to talk to people whether they want him to or not. His speaking doesn't appear to be the outcome of a spell or ritual. If it was just red priest/ess who heard him I wouldn't pay it any attention. But now there have been several people who do not believe in him who have all heard his voice. So unless this is some kind of parlor trick or unrelated coincidence, it appears that he's real and is somewhat interested in the happenings of the world.

IIRC, R'hllor doesn't actually speak to anyone in the books. Melisandre claims that he sends her visions (which she then interprets incorrectly). The "voice in the flames" heard by young Varys is in both the books and the show, but only the show has a red priestess implying that that voice was R'hllor's.

And then there's this:

There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

And this:

There’s a line in book 5 where character says, “The gods are good.” Jaime thinks, “You go on believing that.” You talk about religion a lot in the stories, but what are your views?

I suppose I’m a lapsed Catholic. You would consider me an atheist or agnostic. I find religion and spirituality fascinating. I would like to believe this isn’t the end and there’s something more, but I can’t convince the rational part of me that that makes any sense whatsoever. That’s what Tolkien left out – there’s no priesthood, there’s no temples; nobody is worshiping anything in Rings.

So magic in Martin's universe may very well end up having a naturalistic basis.
 
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irishroo

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I suppose I don't necessarily automatically equate magic as proof of a corresponding deity. The difference is in intent. For example, when a CotF does a spell, I don't immediately assume that they are getting that power from the Old Gods. I also don't assume that Melisandre birthing a shadow is the work of the Lord of Light. These are things that mortals who have been trained in magic are willing. So though this confirms that the world has a supernatural element, it does not necessarily equate to a real intelligent "being" with thoughts and feelings and personal interests. Magic could just be a force of nature in this world.

But the Lord of Light (if I recall correctly) is different than any other God so far. The main difference here is that he seems to talk to people whether they want him to or not. His speaking doesn't appear to be the outcome of a spell or ritual. If it was just red priest/ess who heard him I wouldn't pay it any attention. But now there have been several people who do not believe in him who have all heard his voice. So unless this is some kind of parlor trick or unrelated coincidence, it appears that he's real and is somewhat interested in the happenings of the world.

I think of this in a totally different framework. I don't think Martin is implying that there are many Gods (i.e. Lord of Light, Old Gods, Drowned God, etc.), I think there is one true God in the GoT universe with many different understandings of Him, none of which are entirely correct and none of which are entirely incorrect. Martin seems to hint that some of these are more correct by giving the adherents of certain interpretations access to supernatural ability while not doing so for others (i.e. Melisandre can bring people back from the dead, the High Sparrow can... avoid blisters?).

To add to that, I think the Many-Faced God of the Faceless Men may be an allegory for that entire concept - with the Many-Faced God not being a reference to the abilities of the Faceless Men to literally wear many faces, but rather a reference to the nature of one true God taking on different forms across a diverse culture.
 

Emcee77

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I think of this in a totally different framework. I don't think Martin is implying that there are many Gods (i.e. Lord of Light, Old Gods, Drowned God, etc.), I think there is one true God in the GoT universe with many different understandings of Him, none of which are entirely correct and none of which are entirely incorrect. Martin seems to hint that some of these are more correct by giving the adherents of certain interpretations access to supernatural ability while not doing so for others (i.e. Melisandre can bring people back from the dead, the High Sparrow can... avoid blisters?).

To add to that, I think the Many-Faced God of the Faceless Men may be an allegory for that entire concept - with the Many-Faced God not being a reference to the abilities of the Faceless Men to literally wear many faces, but rather a reference to the nature of one true God taking on different forms across a diverse culture.

Yeah, I think of the series as having no true god or gods; there are some people who know how to tap into some kind of supernatural or divine power to make miracles happen, but that's all. That is, some people know how to harness supernatural or divine power, although many of them, maybe all of them, are wrong about how exactly to describe or characterize it. And I don't necessarily expect Martin to get specific about how the theology is supposed to work. I think his real interest is in real-world medieval history and the warfare politics of that era, and the magical elements are meant to spice things up and help drive the plot from one "Game of Thrones" episode, meaning not an episode of the TV show but an episode of wargames-and-politicking ("when you play the game of thrones you win or you die"), to another.

But I don't think of GRRM's universe like Tolkien's, where the mythology is a preexisting thing from which the plot flows; I think for GRRM, the plot came first and the mythology just helps it along.
 

Henges24

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My crazy prediction with Hodor is that he will turn into a White Walker and be a force of nature in the End Games.

Hencing the "..greatest warrior in the seven kingdoms" quote.
 

wizards8507

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My crazy prediction with Hodor is that he will turn into a White Walker and be a force of nature in the End Games.

Hencing the "..greatest warrior in the seven kingdoms" quote.
He can't turn into a white walker. Only a wight.
 

IrishLion

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He can't turn into a white walker. Only a wight.

Unless the Night's King shows up before he's dead and puts The Finger Nail of Ice on his face.

Or unless one of the Children survived somehow and jabs some Obsidian into his chest slowly and painfully before the wights took him down.
 

IrishLion

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IrishLax

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While I don't get Captain America being gay, Elsa being a lesbian doesn't bother me.

Elsa being a lesbian is at least rational, because she's been locked in a tower her entire life and hasn't displayed any leanings one way or another.

Captain America clearly displayed hetero attraction to what's her face in the first movie, and has decades of established cannon in comic books... none of which points to him being the slightest bit gay. Campaigning for Captain America to be gay is as logical as campaigning for Simba to self-identify as a warthog and get it on with Pumbaa.
 

woolybug25

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Elsa being a lesbian is at least rational, because she's been locked in a tower her entire life and hasn't displayed any leanings one way or another.

Captain America clearly displayed hetero attraction to what's her face in the first movie, and has decades of established cannon in comic books... none of which points to him being the slightest bit gay. Campaigning for Captain America to be gay is as logical as campaigning for Simba to self-identify as a warthog and get it on with Pumbaa.

i'de watch that.
 

Whiskeyjack

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WaPo's Sunny Bunch just published an article titled "In 'Game of Thrones', it's time to start rooting for the White Walkers":

Last year, I joked that the darkest way that George R.R. Martin* and HBO could end “Game of Thrones” would be to put a White Walker on the Iron Throne. But after a few minutes of thought, I realized that, given the options, this was actually a best-case scenario for Westeros. And nothing I’ve seen thus far this season — including and especially Sunday’s revelation of the origin of the White Walkers — has dispelled that notion.

It turns out that the White Walkers were first brought into existence by the Children of the Forest, a race of magical beings who were being hunted to extermination by the First Men. Their magical trees felled, their bodies destroyed, the Children turned one of the First Men into a magical ice zombie in order to drive back the hordes who were decimating the Children’s homeland.

The White Walkers, then, are revenge for man’s hubris and cruelty, a way to check his onslaught against nature. And yes, they are cunning and vicious warriors. In the very first episode of “Game of Thrones,” we see some of their gruesome handiwork; that threat of magical violence is the shroud under which the entire series has existed thus far. But you could argue that the White Walkers are actually the most decent creatures we’ve seen thus far.

The White Walkers are, ultimately, in favor of life, at least as they have come to understand it. Sure, they kill their enemies. But they also resurrect them, provide them protection and meaning, with neither sustenance nor suffering a concern any longer. Free will is overrated; just look at Westeros as we know it.

Think about the White Walkers’ treatment of the boys of Craster, the cruel wildling lord who killed all of his incestuous male children to avoid siring a challenger. Audiences assumed Craster was giving the boys up to be eaten or dismembered or made part of some evil ceremony. Instead, we see a White Walker lord gently cradling the baby, taking him to his ice castle. There, the Walkers do not feast upon his entrails or sacrifice him. No, they make him one of their own. They bring him into the fold.

Compare that behavior with what we’ve seen from literally every other house on “Game of Thrones.” Robert Baratheon (Mark Addy) orders the murder of the children of the previous occupant of the Iron Throne. Following King Robert’s death, the golden-haired Lannisters, two of whom started the show by attempting to murder a child, viciously kill all of Robert’s bastards — including a newborn housed in a brothel — in order to cement their hold on power.

Dorne is now in the hands of a group of women who kill the children of their enemies in order to maintain power and obtain revenge for past wrongs.

The current warden of the north, Ramsay Bolton (Iwan Rheon), gets his jollies by feeding newborns (and their mothers!) to dogs.

The Starks seem honorable enough, though poor Hodor (Kristian Nairn) might disagree, given Bran’s (Isaac Hempstead Wright) unintentional destruction of the young Willis’ mind. And earlier this season, one of Bran’s vision showed the young Ned Stark winning a victory on decidedly unchivalric terms.

And what of the so-called Mother of Dragons, one Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke)? Well, she did sacrifice her unborn child in a futile attempt to save the life of her husband. Since then, she has engaged in a series of costly and poorly thought-through wars that have led to thousands of deaths and endless sectarian violence in her ungovernable — but “free” — city-states. Not content to simply sow chaos, Dany has unleashed winged weapons of mass destruction against her enemies, uncontrollable beasts that have burned to death small children.

Oh, she also recently burned a bunch of political leaders to death in a holy site in order to terrorize their populace into bending its collective knee to her.

Look, the White Walkers aren’t perfect. I’ll be the first to admit that. But Westeros is desperate for change: Wracked by war for generations and faced with nothing but sociopaths on all sides, it’s time for a change. Westeros needs a man who is more than a man to sit on the Iron Throne, a man who was altered in order to stop man’s wanton brutality, his senseless violence.

Who better than the Night King to make Westeros great again?

*For the purposes of this discussion, we’re only dealing with the TV show, as I haven’t read the books. What do I look like, some sort of nerd?
 

ND NYC

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is there any possibility that the Children of the Forest can turn the Nights King BACK to who he was prior?
do any blogs/westeros.org discuss feasibility/probability of this ever even happening?
 

ACamp1900

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You still voting for Cersi?
Thought you'd be done with her after the whole un-secured carrier pigeon thing.

The current high priest will never allow an official walk of shame for that.....
 
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