10 Year Reflection: State of the Program

[jimmymac]

My friend and I have been talking about this recent class, and eventually we arrived on conversation regarding the state of the program, and where it's come in 10 years.

What a difference 10 years makes. 2004 was Ty's 91st ranked recruiting class (ranked behind the likes of the Buffalo Bulls).

Notre Dame 2004 recruiting class:

Abdel Banda
Darrin Bragg
Justin Brown
Maurice Crum
Tregg Duerson
Leo Ferrine
Justin Hoskins
Chauncey Incarnato
Junior Jabbie
John Kadous
Terrail Lambert
Brandon Nicolas
Ronald Talley
Anthony Vernaglia
Darius Walker
David Wolke

6 2* recruits or worse.
We have signed more OL each year in the last two years than Ty had in ALL THREE YEARS COMBINED

2 of those guys quit by sophomore year and could not start for Stanford Hall Football Team. Not joking. They weren't interhall starters much less D-1 athletes.

To see CBK continue to bring in top athletes is great to see. This class will do great things. Go Irish!

 

[ND-North]

Hey man, the Stanford Hall football team is no joke. Stanford hall FTW

 

[phork]

Perspective.

 

[rikkitikki08]

I feel like every ND fan complaining about this class should have to take a look at this thread

 

[RDU Irish]

Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2004 Notre Dame Commitments

Vernaglia might be the only one to get considered today. Jabbie and Lambert would be too short by recent standards but otherwise possible.

While Walker and Crum played better than their ratings, how much of that was opportunity created by lack of depth. As seniors Crum probably makes the current two deep and Walker rides pine. I doubt if either one would get an offer if they were coming out today.

Hindsight is 20/20 but Lambert is the only one I might add to today's roster, even then it is as a depth player.

 

[woolybug25]

I feel like every ND fan complaining about this class should have to take a look at this thread

Help me understand this....

So everyone should unilaterally consider this class as perfect because it's better than the worst recruiting class in our history? Because everyone I have seen "complain" about this class have acknowledged that its a good class.

I get having perspective and remembering how bad it can be, but that doesn't mean that every class better than our very worst should be heralded and without any discussion. If the only benchmark was to have a class better than '04, then our expectations are pretty damn low.

 

[rikkitikki08]

Help me understand this....

So everyone should unilaterally consider this class as perfect because it's better than the worst recruiting class in our history? Because everyone I have seen "complain" about this class have acknowledged that its a good class.

I get having perspective and remembering how bad it can be, but that doesn't mean that every class better than our very worst should be heralded and without any discussion. If the only benchmark was to have a class better than '04, then our expectations are pretty damn low.

Never in my post did I say this class should be considered perfect,wooly how about you take a step back and read what i posted again, because like you said all my post was about was simply looking at perspective. This class in no even close to being flawless and i never stated otherwise

 

[Who'saWildManNow]

Ty couldn't recruit and Chuck couldn't develop. Kelly seems to have a pretty good handle on both so far.

Golson is back with plenty of weapons. Van Gorder has some talent to work with. Lets play some football.

 

[woolybug25]

Never in my post did I say this class should be considered perfect,wooly how about you take a step back and read what i posted again, because like you said all my post was about was simply looking at perspective. This class in no even close to being flawless and i never stated otherwise

You only wrote one sentance. So there isn't much to misinterpret.

So what else did you mean by "any one that complains should look at this thread"? What should they be looking at? Should they not be complaining because of the information in this thread?

 

[RDU Irish]

It seems therapeutic on some level to consider few if any players on our worst recruiting class (maybe ever) would make the two deep or maybe even walk on to today's team.

When you consider there are maybe 30 FIVE STAR type players per year, how many can even get admitted let alone have a legit shot with them. Those players particularly think they are 3 years away from the NFL and are more likely to devalue an actual education. At least half are non-qualifiers at ND, maybe more like 2/3rds.

If we have a shot with 4 or 5 per year I think that is realistic and that is not enough to statistically expect to land 2-3 per year.

 

[Cackalacky]

Ty couldn't recruit and Chuck couldn't develop. Kelly seems to have a pretty good handle on both so far.

Golson is back with plenty of weapons. Van Gorder has some talent to work with. Lets play some football.

+1

 

[Cackalacky]

It seems therapeutic on some level to consider few if any players on our worst recruiting class (maybe ever) would make the two deep or maybe even walk on to today's team.

When you consider there are maybe 30 FIVE STAR type players per year, how many can even get admitted let alone have a legit shot with them. Those players particularly think they are 3 years away from the NFL and are more likely to devalue an actual education. At least half are non-qualifiers at ND, maybe more like 2/3rds.

If we have a shot with 4 or 5 per year I think that is realistic and that is not enough to statistically expect to land 2-3 per year.

I agree with this. At this point, with our current roster and projected depth, I think we should go for the high character 4* players with high ceilings and shoot for a few 5*s with the expectation we won't get them. Its unrealistic that we could even get 10% of the yearly 5* athletes.

 

[rikkitikki08]

You only wrote one sentance. So there isn't much to misinterpret.

So what else did you mean by "any one that complains should look at this thread"? What should they be looking at? Should they not be complaining because of the information in this thread?

You're right wooly, you win

 

[woolybug25]

I agree with this. At this point, with our current roster and projected depth, I think we should go for the high character 4* players with high ceilings and shoot for a few 5*s with the expectation we won't get them. Its unrealistic that we could even get 10% of the yearly 5* athletes.

I would like to see us start pulling the trigger sooner on guy that are highly ranked, but maybe not on the top of our list at their position. IE, get back to the "big skill, skill and speed" philosophy we are suppose to be recruiting to.

I'm with you on the 5* thing though. We need to go into those situations assuming we wont get them and recruit accordingly.

Another note, I love what we are doing with the preferred walkon program. If we get one scholarship player out of that pool a year, it' a great success. That would mean that we got a scholarsip level talent for a year without using one of the 85. That being said, we don't really benefit from that until we start hitting that number.

 

[irishtrain]

state of the program

state of the program

In my humble opinion its about as good as can be expected in todays college football world as Notre Dame tries to keep a level of college life experience. This week was a complete success and just look at some of the things that hit the media. Sheppard ends up at an SEC school, Randi Moss laments over not getting a chance to attend Notre Dame, Kelly is interviewed by many outlets for the job Notre Dame has done and the type of kid attending. Its all positive. This place continues to try to do it right and not stoop to minor league pro football. I was once one of those who suggested that Notre Dame go the route of the SEC but now that Kelly has shown that it can be done the Notre Dame way I have changed my mind. This is the right way to do it. They will compete on a different level now and if they can just keep a few more studs for their last year of football things will be fine. This Notre Dame will never be Fla State/Bama/Auburn/Lsu/southern cal as far as depth but you still are going to have to bring your lunch to play Notre Dame-because its going to be a full days work.

 

[ACamp1900]

In my humble opinion its about as good as can be expected in todays college football world as Notre Dame tries to keep a level of college life experience. This week was a complete success and just look at some of the things that hit the media. Sheppard ends up at an SEC school, Randi Moss laments over not getting a chance to attend Notre Dame, Kelly is interviewed by many outlets for the job Notre Dame has done and the type of kid attending. Its all positive. This place continues to try to do it right and not stoop to minor league pro football. I was once one of those who suggested that Notre Dame go the route of the SEC but now that Kelly has shown that it can be done the Notre Dame way I have changed my mind. This is the right way to do it. They will compete on a different level now and if they can just keep a few more studs for their last year of football things will be fine. This Notre Dame will never be Fla State/Bama/Auburn/Lsu/southern cal as far as depth but you still are going to have to bring your lunch to play Notre Dame-because its going to be a full days work.

Shown that what can be done??

 

[Bogtrotter07]

30 wins in three years? Getting everyone's respect? Even if it comes as hatred.

 

[irishtrain]

Shown that what can be done??

I know you probably mean what have they done as in the meaning of 'not much', these other schools as mentioned have a different mission and advantage. I'm not complaining as I am now in the opinion of many alums-lets do it this way and not tarnish the ideals of Notre Dame. Holtz is a great man and tremedous coach but even he had advantages over Kelly today. I think Lou had a longer leash as far as getting certain kids in. Kelly does not have that and by getting to the national championship game he now has shown the adm that it can be done with a little luck. Problem is that was with a little luck and its going to be tough to do that again (even a top 4). I'll end by saying this and its now where I stand on the matter-I played golf last year behind 2 dads and their sons who were all Notre Dame grads-they said keep the profile of the football team as it is and play for a championship every ten years. Its about all that can be expected unless you go the route of semi pro football and all the nasty that goes with it. I'm not saying all these kids at other schools are crimminal/bad people-I'm just saying they are not college athletes-they are pros.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2004 Notre Dame Commitments

Vernaglia might be the only one to get considered today. Jabbie and Lambert would be too short by recent standards but otherwise possible.

While Walker and Crum played better than their ratings, how much of that was opportunity created by lack of depth. As seniors Crum probably makes the current two deep and Walker rides pine. I doubt if either one would get an offer if they were coming out today.

Hindsight is 20/20 but Lambert is the only one I might add to today's roster, even then it is as a depth player.

I agree on most of what you say. But, I would add Ronald Talley to today's roster with Lambert. Talley did play a few years in the NFL and when suited for Notre Dame was a force on the dline. Shame he transferred though.

 

[ND101]

I thought Walker was a really good running back for the Irish. Starting running back on two BCS teams. Was Brady Quinn safety net with dumps out of the backfield. Even only playing three years his stats were very good. Pretty sure he would make are roster.

 

[garyasher]

I don't think ND can do it like the SEC even if they wanted too. I think what ND is selling today is the best it will ever get and that is why we get the quality of recruits that we get. We sell an awesome education at the most beautiful campus. We sell the student life. If we change to what the SEC has, then why come to northern Indiana.

 

[notredomer23]

I always wondered what Terrail Lambert could have been with a good coaching staff. He had all the tools and the instincts, just not the coaching. If I recall, he did end up making an NFL roster for a few years.

 

[BGIF]

I know you probably mean what have they done as in the meaning of 'not much', these other schools as mentioned have a different mission and advantage. I'm not complaining as I am now in the opinion of many alums-lets do it this way and not tarnish the ideals of Notre Dame. Holtz is a great man and tremedous coach but even he had advantages over Kelly today. I think Lou had a longer leash as far as getting certain kids in. Kelly does not have that and by getting to the national championship game he now has shown the adm that it can be done with a little luck. Problem is that was with a little luck and its going to be tough to do that again (even a top 4). I'll end by saying this and its now where I stand on the matter-I played golf last year behind 2 dads and their sons who were all Notre Dame grads-they said keep the profile of the football team as it is and play for a championship every ten years. Its about all that can be expected unless you go the route of semi pro football and all the nasty that goes with it. I'm not saying all these kids at other schools are crimminal/bad people-I'm just saying they are not college athletes-they are pros.

I'll differ with you there. Holtz didn't have the 85 rule until '94 so he had a greater number of recruits during his glory years and those that flunked out weren't as noticeable to the public ... but they were to Admissions, Monk, and Beauchamp. Holtz had more slack than any recent coach with two Prop 48s in '86. ND never allowed Prop 48s again. Holtz and Vinny Cerrato had a running war with Admissions. They constantly tried to force Admissions hand by stalling on transcripts until the 11th hour. As academic issues with Holtz recruits (players) increased Admissions tightened down. Finally in '95 he accepted two LOI's which Admissions had not evaluated/approved. Admissions rejected both after NSD for academic issues. Malloy concurred. This was a major factor in Holtz departure from ND. So Holtz has a longer leash but he wore it down to a nub.

Weis got the EEs through the door. ND's experience has not been good. The transfer rate is higher than usual and the Tee situation was a fiasco. I'll submit that part of Kelly's tranfers are due to more academic borderline cases being admitted. From my observation Kelly has an incredibily longer leash than either Davie or Willingham (Davie followed the Holtz battles and he owed his job to Monk. He was going to rock the boat. Willingham played Monk's game and used it as an crutch to cover his shortcomings, not wanting to recruit/ineffective recruiting).

 

[wizards8507]

I know you probably mean what have they done as in the meaning of 'not much', these other schools as mentioned have a different mission and advantage. I'm not complaining as I am now in the opinion of many alums-lets do it this way and not tarnish the ideals of Notre Dame. Holtz is a great man and tremedous coach but even he had advantages over Kelly today. I think Lou had a longer leash as far as getting certain kids in. Kelly does not have that and by getting to the national championship game he now has shown the adm that it can be done with a little luck. Problem is that was with a little luck and its going to be tough to do that again (even a top 4). I'll end by saying this and its now where I stand on the matter-I played golf last year behind 2 dads and their sons who were all Notre Dame grads-they said keep the profile of the football team as it is and play for a championship every ten years. Its about all that can be expected unless you go the route of semi pro football and all the nasty that goes with it. I'm not saying all these kids at other schools are crimminal/bad people-I'm just saying they are not college athletes-they are pros.

Can we stop with that? Seriously. We were prepared to admit Isaiah McKenzie, who was hardly even NCAA ELIGIBLE. "NCAA eligibility" is the lowest possible standard by which to admit a student-athlete and we were prepared to do it. You can't ge worse than "ineligible to play anywhere," and we were willing to go down to that bare minimum standard for IM. Kelly's leash is not shortened by Admissions any more than it is by the NCAA, rules by which all schools must abide.

 

[BGIF]

Can we stop with that? Seriously. We were prepared to admit Isaiah McKenzie, who was hardly even NCAA ELIGIBLE. "NCAA eligibility" is the lowest possible standard by which to admit a student-athlete and we were prepared to do it. You can't ge worse than "ineligible to play anywhere," and we were willing to go down to that bare minimum standard for IM. Kelly's leash is not shortened by Admissions any more than it is by the NCAA, rules by which all schools must abide.

Yes it is. ND may accept a few down in the lower range but there not going carte blanche. Hesburgh started tightening the screws on Leahy, then tightened them again under Brennan and Devine just as they were tightened on Anderson. Parshegian balked and Hesburgh had to compromsie.

I've tracked available ND recruit GPA/Test Scores for more than 20 years. Holtz had less required core courses to deal with during most of his run than all the coaches since have had to deal with. He also had more number of recruits per year so he had more margin for error.

As the NCAA academics cores courses and Sliding Scale have risen ND's pool shrinks as more schools are forced to go after those that can get eligible. GSR, FGR, and APR are forcing football factories to go after more academically qualified recruits. Stanford, Vandy, Northwestern and a couple of other "academic" schools are making more of a push for football success against cutting into ND's available pool. In 2016 the minimum GPA rises to 2.30. Tommy and friends will remind us then how Saban has elevated the academic envirionment in "T'Town" as he's raised the team's GPA magically by a corresponding 0.30 points. Better the ranch UA's graduation rate isn't hitting 95%.

While the NCAA has raised academic standards. ND isn't the same one your grandfather (Parshegiani) or father (Holtz) attended. The average student is 1350+ and in the top 5% of his or her class. Holtz athletes didn't have to contend with that competitive a student body. I know ND parents and grandparents who attest to the increase competitiveness in the ND student body then during their generation. Hesburgh's and Malloy's goal was not to become Michigan or Ohio St. their goal was Princeton and Stanford.

As for McKenzie, YOU think he was going to get in. I was always dubious based on 20+ years of watching ND prospects getting separated from ND recruits. Neither Mike Frank nor Wilfong see transcripts nor test scores. They only report what people usually the recruit, relative, or HS coach tell them. Most of them don't know what ND requires.

 

[RDU Irish]

I thought Walker was a really good running back for the Irish. Starting running back on two BCS teams. Was Brady Quinn safety net with dumps out of the backfield. Even only playing three years his stats were very good. Pretty sure he would make are roster.

Walker would not have been starting as soon as he did and would be behind three guys on today's depth chart.

Agree on Lambert, but wonder if he would have been to short to even be recruited now.

 

[IrishLion]

Hindsight is 20/20 but Lambert is the only one I might add to today's roster, even then it is as a depth player.

IMO:
Crum > K. Moore
Lambert > J. Brown, J. Atkinson
Walker > Carlisle

I would add all three to the current roster in a heartbeat simply for the above comparisons.

Also, Vernaglia = Tranquill. Vernaglia just didn't have a coaching staff to develop his superior athletic abilities.

 

[Booslum31]

Walker would not have been starting as soon as he did and would be behind three guys on today's depth chart.

Agree on Lambert, but wonder if he would have been to short to even be recruited now.

I liked Walker because he was "Our RB". I think I remember him being "Mr. Football" for the state of Georgia...could be wrong. But man, I used to get sooo frustrated at how easy he went down. The thing I remember most about those teams was the complete lack of team speed.

 

[GowerND11]

I liked Walker because he was "Our RB". I think I remember him being "Mr. Football" for the state of Georgia...could be wrong. But man, I used to get sooo frustrated at how easy he went down. The thing I remember most about those teams was the complete lack of team speed.

Armando Allen his first three years as well....

 

[ulukinatme]

Ty couldn't recruit and Chuck couldn't develop. Kelly seems to have a pretty good handle on both so far.

Golson is back with plenty of weapons. Van Gorder has some talent to work with. Lets play some football.

I would argue that Chuck could certainly develop offensive skill positions, probably better than most, but his OL was severely lacking as well as the defense of course. His secondary was atrocious, seems like we were often getting beaten by the long ball. Ty certainly was crap though. Any success he had came from riding the defense that Davie left him and some luck on special teams.