We are slow, Longo must go?

aubeirish

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I think that we are expecting to win big. We have been winning big. I mean last season was incredible. We can't expect doing what Bama did. It is not fair to any program to expect that. Expecting to be among the top 15 every year is what we should strive for. Otherwise, you're just talking video game numbers.
The truth is that even though we have all these resources, we only have access to a piece of the recruiting pie. There are a lot of good players in there, but sometimes we have to limit ourselves.
I would say that we have been doing superb in that department. It has not been perfect, but what is. This isn't 1970 where 105 all-americans were on the roster. Things have changed and we need to adapt.
 

anarin

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I think that we are expecting to win big. We have been winning big. I mean last season was incredible. We can't expect doing what Bama did. It is not fair to any program to expect that. Expecting to be among the top 15 every year is what we should strive for. Otherwise, you're just talking video game numbers.
The truth is that even though we have all these resources, we only have access to a piece of the recruiting pie. There are a lot of good players in there, but sometimes we have to limit ourselves.
I would say that we have been doing superb in that department. It has not been perfect, but what is. This isn't 1970 where 105 all-americans were on the roster. Things have changed and we need to adapt.

understatement
 

IrishLax

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Maybe I am asking for the moon....but is that too much at this point with our resources, coverage, ROI, and tradition?

Shouldn't we be expecting to win big? Not celebrating a narrow win at Purdue? With all the chest beating around her about our recruiting and what a "genius" Diaco/Kelly is...should we not be winning titles?


Maybe I'm just tired of waiting. Frustration has set in. Watching Bama win three and we can't sniff the same level they play on is very agonizing.

God bless us if we run into an A&M or LSU or Bama in a bowl game this year.

The fuq? We'd get DESTROYED by A&M or Bama. We'd match up really well with LSU's style of offense. There are about 30 teams I can think of off the top of my head that would be a tougher matchup than LSU.
 

aubeirish

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I pretty much agree with your post, but, for me moving forward, it's playoffs (top 4) or bust every year. That should be our goal as a program which will require 12-0 or 11-1 seasons year after year. I may be asking for too much, but that's how I feel a year away from the new playoff structure.

It should be our goal, and it is. I just feel like it's unrealistic to expect fulfilment every year.
 
C

Cackalacky

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I pretty much agree with your post, but, for me moving forward, it's playoffs (top 4) or bust every year. That should be our goal as a program which will require 12-0 or 11-1 seasons year after year. I may be asking for too much, but that's how I feel a year away from the new playoff structure.

Kelly can win a playoff format.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Not that it matters, but the current system better suits our interests. There are three tiers of post-season success: NCG > BCS bowl > other bowl. All we have to do to reach that middle tier is finish in the top 14; I feel like Kelly could achieve that (10-2 or better) in most years.

Now that middle tier of success is disappearing, and in exchange, all we get is a slightly better chance at making a NCG appearance. But its still a very tall order; realistically speaking, we'll have to outplay 2 of the 3 conference champions from the Big-12, B1G and ACC to get in most years.
 

palinurus

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See, this is an interesting page after all, lol...

Seriously, both Whiskyjack and Pat make legitimate points, to which there are rebuttals in some cases, and that's the tension we have as Irish fans: We either remember personally or have been told/have read about the great ND teams of the 60s, 70s, and then the late 80s/early 90s of Holtz. We know what it feels like to be one of the best teams nearly every year. That's what's made the last 20 years so hard. We also know what it feels like to be ascendant, when you know you might not quite be there, but you are getting there. But we also can sense what it's like to be a perennial second tier type team, too -- pretty good, but not really up there with Alabama and the top SEC teams, or Oregon, Ohio State and a few others -- I define that as meaning that pretty much every year having a shot at the title. I think what we want, and what we hope is reasonable, is that we get back into that top tier -- not expecting to win every year, but not feeling like last year was just a cameo.

So the tension is, we want to be top tier, but we don't want to appear disloyal or greedy in the face of setbacks or disappointments.

Maybe it's the misery of the last 20 years, but it makes you worry that every lapse -- the tail kicking in the NT game, the recruiting reversals, the fairly frequent narrow wins against inferior programs -- make you a little rabbit-eared that you hear "Major Letdown" and Mediocrity coming down the track. Even Kelly's "apologies" after narrow wins like Purdue ("It's great to get a win on the road.") just irritates me, because I want him to communicate that we expect to pound teams like Purdue into the sod.

I said, even in these pages, that I didn't need Kelly to win a title in his second or third year, but that you wanted a series of bowl wins, so that you feel like you're getting better. You want to feel that the program is healing, that it's sound, and not the beneficiary of a flash in the pan, or Year of Destiny, year: you want to be really, consistently good. I am sick to death of the media scorn, the loudmouth SEC fans and Big Ten fans telling me ND is not "relevant." I want to be what I know we can be.

I think only several years of top flight records, consistently good bowl performances, top 10 rankings, and top recruiting classes will get us feeling like we've gotten back. And until then, there's always going to be whispering or even shouting doubts.

I think Kelly can do it, but the pessimism (or in my case, uncertainty) some feel is not crazy to me.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Even Kelly's "apologies" after narrow wins like Purdue ("It's great to get a win on the road.") just irritates me, because I want him to communicate that we expect to pound teams like Purdue into the sod.

This is a perception problem created by our scheduling philosophy. The worst teams on our schedule really aren't that bad, but the worst teams on most other teams' schedules are truly terrible. For instance, Sagarin currently ranks Purdue 93rd nationally, but 3 weeks from now, 'Bama plays the 213th ranked Georgia State Panthers. But most people seem unable to make much of a distinction between those games; both are "cupcakes", and should get mercilessly crushed. Unfortunately for us, there's a world of difference between 93 and 213, but we don't get much credit for it.

As an independent, I don't think SEC-style scheduling (tougher marquee games, softer cupcakes) is really an option for us. So we have to get used to the occasional close game against an inferior opponent.

I think Kelly can do it, but the pessimism (or in my case, uncertainty) some feel is not crazy to me.

My earlier posts did not suggest that pessimism is unwarranted. Lots of very thoughtful posters around here-- Lax, OMM, Ironman8-- have all expressed serious reservations about the way we've played thus far. But they did so in measured, well-reasoned posts.

Pessimistic posts bear stricter scrutiny than inane expressions of optimism because the former are simply unpleasant to read. So if you're pessimistic because "Rees sucks" or "Kelly can't win jack", you're gonna get called out. That sort of bullsh!t is not only objectively incorrect, it's obnoxious and degrades the quality of discourse around here.

This team has some real deficiencies that merit thoughtful discussion, and we're all striving for a better understanding of the team we love. Neither of those goals is furthered by irrational b!tching about imaginary problems.
 
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ACamp1900

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Pessimistic posts bear stricter scrutiny than inane expressions of optimism because the former are simply unpleasant to read. So if you're pessimistic because "Rees sucks" or "Kelly can't win jack", you're gonna get called out. That sort of bullsh!t is not only objectively incorrect, it's obnoxious and degrades the quality of discourse around here.

What if they are just some EMO fvker that can’t help it???…. Everything sucks you know… everything.
 

palinurus

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This is a perception problem created by our scheduling philosophy. The worst teams on our schedule really aren't that bad, but the worst teams on most other teams' schedules are truly terrible. For instance, Sagarin currently ranks Purdue 93rd nationally, but 3 weeks from now, 'Bama plays the 213th ranked Georgia State Panthers. But most people seem unable to make much of a distinction between those games; both are "cupcakes", and should get mercilessly crushed. Unfortunately for us, there's a world of difference between 93 and 213, but we don't get much credit for it.

As an independent, I don't think SEC-style scheduling (tougher marquee games, softer cupcakes) is really an option for us. So we have to get used to the occasional close game against an inferior opponent.

My earlier posts did not suggest that pessimism is unwarranted. Lots of very thoughtful posters around here-- Lax, OMM, Ironman8-- have all expressed serious reservations about the way we've played thus far. But they did so in measured, well-reasoned posts.

Pessimistic posts bear stricter scrutiny than inane expressions of optimism because the former are simply unpleasant to read. So if you're pessimistic because "Rees sucks" or "Kelly can't win jack", you're gonna get called out. That sort of bullsh!t is not only objectively incorrect, it's obnoxious and degrades the quality of discourse around here.

This team has some real deficiencies that merit thoughtful discussion, and we're all striving for a better understanding of the team we love. Neither of those goals is furthered by irrational b!tching about imaginary problems.


I don't disagree. Good post.
 

WakeUpEchoes

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This thread...

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/EZ734u4bFQA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

tdbaum1

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I haven't read though this entire thread so someone might have said this already...if so I apologize for that. IMO and a few Oline coaches that coached me, the skill position guys are born and the line position guys are made. The strength and conditioning coach will be able to improve our line position guys a whole hell of a lot more than he will our skill position guys. As for whether Longo is good or bad, I dont know but this is a little tid bit that I learned in playing the game through the college level.
 

stlnd01

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There was a time not long ago when we routinely fell apart in the fourth quarter of games, and in the fourth quarter of the season. That isn't happening anymore. I like to think strength and conditioning has something to do with that.
 

IrishJayhawk

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What's your definition of "jack [sh!t]"? We've won 82% of our last 22 games. Only a handful of Division I teams have won more, and none have played anything approaching our SoS. Our only 4 losses during that period came against Andrew Luck, EJ Manuel, AJ McCarron, and Devin Gardner.



Kelly's responsible for Weis' failures now?



Have you ever been impressed? Honest question. I can't recall the last positive comment you've made about the team, and we just came off our best season in nearly two decades. But you ought to email Kelly about your desire for trophies. He may be under the impression that 9-3 with a trip to the Beef O'Brady Bowl is good enough for ND.



Kelly has outperformed his talent in every year he's been here except 2010, where he basically broke even.



There's no reason we can't win another title. We haven't won one yet because the program was a dumpster fire when Kelly arrived, and he's only had 3 years to turn things around.

Here's my question for you, Pat: Why do keep doing this? You constantly post absurdly pessimistic stuff here about the team. I show you objective data that contradicts whatever your irrational theory of the moment is, you back down, and then we start all over again the next day.

Is there some therapeutic value for you in kvetching about the team here? Because it's f*cking obnoxious for the rest of us to read and constantly debunk.

Pat? Where are you? Masterful post that deserves a response...
 

Irish Insanity

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I'm not gonna sift thru the several pages following the next few quotes I picked out. If I missed something yell at me.

2005-2009: 35-27

2010-2013: 30-12

the entire coaching staff should be fired.

There is much more that goes into achieving that increase in win % than the specifics of the OP. Much more.

I actually agree. In fact, this whole coaching staff needs to be questioned.

We are constantly beating our chests about how "great of a class" we have (every year) and how athletic we are....

But teams like Purdue, Temple, and a handful of them last year, are always running with us??

So what gives, IE?!!? Are most of you full of it when it comes to rating our classes (what I believe) or is our coaching staff having a hard time developing this talent?

I can't believe I agree with you (to a point), wtf is this world coming to. But I do. I feel there is to much 'system' and development with this staff. We spend 2+ years prepping a player to play in the system. Let the players play. We, and a **** load of other top teams, wanted these recruits for a reason.

maybe the problem is in the expectations, and not the coaching?

A coach who can't meet expectations, doesn't have a job. Isn't that the point of hiring the coach to begin with? Doesn't most programs, especially one with the history of ND, strive for a NC?
 

irishpat183

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Out of town for the Wife's birthday fellas!

When I get back in town on Monday I'm bringing my bag of pessimism with me.

I get about 10 mins, via cell, to check in on IE, while she's feeding the twins.
 

TheRealLynch51

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Out of town for the Wife's birthday fellas!

When I get back in town on Monday I'm bringing my bag of pessimism with me.

I get about 10 mins, via cell, to check in on IE, while she's feeding the twins.

We'll hold you to it on Monday then. :)
 

Booslum31

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There was a time not long ago when we routinely fell apart in the fourth quarter of games, and in the fourth quarter of the season. That isn't happening anymore. I like to think strength and conditioning has something to do with that.

and depth. I just want out LB's to be faster and more athletic. Jaylon will be a beast. But this conversation could go on all season...though I hope not!
 

NDWorld247

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Out of town for the Wife's birthday fellas!

When I get back in town on Monday I'm bringing my bag of pessimism with me.

I get about 10 mins, via cell, to check in on IE, while she's feeding the twins.

Your wife wears the pants, huh? It's cool, bro. Helps explain why you're always pissed off.
 

aubeirish

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^^Ouch.

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