George Zimmerman Trial

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
The thing is, I'm with you until this last paragraph. Everything you're saying is fine. Then I get lost on your logic on a couple points. Please try to answer these if you have time:
-How does Zimmerman being armed speak to his credibility? It's perfectly legal to carry and lots of people carry every time they leave the house. That hurts his credibility (i.e. the fact that he owns/carries indicates he is untrustworthy) in what way?
-How does him following a teenager (mind you, there is no way Zimmerman would know that a person who is 4" taller than him in the dark and at a distance with a hood up is a "teenager" when he chose to follow him) speak to his character? He called 911 to report someone he thought looked suspicious and then followed them to see where they were going when they randomly took off running. Seems like the actions of a concerned citizen more than a vigilante murder. Someone with the intent of murder/assault logically would not call the cops to report a suspicious person... they would just go murder/assault them.
-Why do you not believe that Martin started the altercation? There are only two people testifying to the start of the altercation... Zimmerman and Martin's GF. Martin's GF even said that she encouraged Martin to keep going home but he didn't listen and instead turned around to confront Zimmerman. She said that on the stand.



So basically what it comes down to is that you just personally do not believe Zimmerman and you also disagree with the law in play here that would allow him to be acquitted. Fine. When phrased like that instead of "Zimmerman deserve to die" it seems far more reasonable.



Seems legit.



Well, 6 out of 6 in this case... so there is a chance. I don't necessarily believe Zimmerman's account, but I find it relatively plausible... at least not very implausible relative to other options. What we know is that Zimmerman thought Martin was suspicious (sorry, but they've told residents in our building to call security on anyone we see in the parking area or in the streets around the building who looks suspicious... and white, black, Latino, or purple someone walking around alone at night in the rain would be suspicious 10/10 times. That is not normal behavior for most people.)... he called the cops... Martin saw Zimmerman watching him and took off running... Zimmerman went to see where Martin went... Martin turned around to confront him per his GF's testimony... and then it gets murky.

Someone escalated it to a physical confrontation, it could just as easily have been either person... it's fairly clear from the forensic evidence and conflicting witness accounts that at one point in the fight Martin was on top of Zimmerman and kicking his ***... and then Zimmerman shot Martin. So in essence the only part of the story that is both important and debatable is whether or not Martin went for his gun, or Zimmerman just drew and fired. I don't really see how there is any evidence either way making Zimmerman's account of that aspect likely or unlikely.

I do think a good chunk of the Zimmerman defenders/rage has to do with people who came into following this case with pre-conceived notions from the media... and then learned how much horse crap was involved in that early media reporting. And they now think that there is practically no case and shame on certain media outlets for trying to manufacture a race war for ratings with doctored/selective/misleading information.

From a shooter's standpoint LAX, I always think of what kind of situation I am getting myself into when I am carrying; bars, police involvement, wanting to shoot a dumb@ss, etc. So Zimmerman carrying, is not the same as say Martin having THC in his system. In every state that has a CCP program that I know, and FLa isn't one of them, there is extra burden on the ccp carrier. One step further, everybody on this site, someone who has ever forgotten that they are carrying, please step forward now.
 

FLDomer

Polish Hammer
Messages
3,227
Reaction score
510
From a shooter's standpoint LAX, I always think of what kind of situation I am getting myself into when I am carrying; bars, police involvement, wanting to shoot a dumb@ss, etc. So Zimmerman carrying, is not the same as say Martin having THC in his system. In every state that has a CCP program that I know, and FLa isn't one of them, there is extra burden on the ccp carrier. One step further, everybody on this site, someone who has ever forgotten that they are carrying, please step forward now.

Florida requires some sort of firearms training to get your CCW permit. Whether that be from prior law enforcement, prior military, hunters safety and if none of those than a class is required.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,946
Reaction score
11,225
One step further, everybody on this site, someone who has ever forgotten that they are carrying, please step forward now.

I don't think it has much to do with anything, but since you asked... My father in law is an ex-Army sniper... incredibly bright... has a CCP... but has forgotten he was carrying before when I was with him. He walked right into a casino with a handgun concealed around his ankle once. That doesn’t prove anything really, other than it does happen.
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,379
Reaction score
5,807
So Zimmerman carrying, is not the same as say Martin having THC in his system.

Correct. Only one of them was a criminal act.

In every state that has a CCP program that I know, and FLa isn't one of them, there is extra burden on the ccp carrier. One step further, everybody on this site, someone who has ever forgotten that they are carrying, please step forward now.


As a CCP holder and person who carries either a Colt Mustang or a Kimber Solo with him fairly regularly.... I agree that it carries extra responsibility.

A CCP is not a badge, not a gavel, nor is it an automatic assumption of guilt. Zimmerman did not break the law with that gun. I would imagine many CCP holders getting their head bashed against concrete would have done the same thing.
 
Last edited:

Rhode Irish

Semi-retired
Messages
7,057
Reaction score
900
Having THC in your system isn't a criminal act. Seriously, this is what we are talking about? I'm curious about what THC in the system tends to tell you about the victim, since you keep brining it up.
 

Golden_Domer

Member
Messages
200
Reaction score
24
Correct. Only one of them was a criminal act.

As a CCP holder and person who carries either a Colt Mustang or a Kimber Solo with him fairly regularly.... I agree that it carries extra responsibility.

A CCP is not a badge, not a gavel, nor is it an automatic assumption of guilt. Zimmerman did not break the law with that gun. I would imagine many CCP holders getting their head bashed against concrete would have done the same thing.

Speaking of choices GZ could have fired a shot into the air, I am pretty certain that a warning shot would have stopped, TM from standing his ground.

Are one of those extra responsibilities firing warning shots when someone is on top of you bashing your head in?
 

Golden_Domer

Member
Messages
200
Reaction score
24
Having THC in your system isn't a criminal act. Seriously, this is what we are talking about? I'm curious about what THC in the system tends to tell you about the victim, since you keep brining it up.

If the judge thought that the evidence of THC in the system was not relevant she would have excluded it based on the prosecution's motion for protective order/motion in limine to exclude the toxicology report. But she didn't. She sided w/ the defense, finding that the jury should have the opportunity to hear it and give it whatever weight they think it deserves.

It's relevant because the levels in his system could have caused some impairment. It's relevant because GZ had stated to the non-emergency police operator that TM looked like he was on drugs. The jury can take that into consideration in assessing GZ and TM's relative physical and mental capacities at the time of the incident.
 

ND NYC

New member
Messages
3,571
Reaction score
209
no matter how you feel in this case, i really hope there aren't any riots after this is all over.

anyone else feel that the media constantly talking and worrying about it over and over (ALL media left and right) is because they want it (rioting) to happen?
just a gut feel i have had for about a week no(could be wrong-hard to explain)

for the trayvon supporters riots will be the worse possible thing that could happen if they want to somehow make something positive come out of all this (make changes to laws etc). protests can be powerful if done right, but riots serve sero purpose.

most people when they think of rodney king first thing they remember is "the riots" and sometimes but not all the time what actually
happened to the guy.

i think the trial having gone sooo poorly for the state has in itself provided a realization of "not guilty verdict on the way" and a "cooling off period during the trial" where i dont think there will be a rodney king type riot break out here. with king trial as ppl watched the evidence in court they were (wrongly) sure their was going to be convctions of the police...in this case there wont be that "shock factor" when the "not guilty" verdict comes down. and possibly they get a "guilty" on one of the lesser charges.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,946
Reaction score
11,225
i think the trial having gone sooo poorly for the state has in itself provided a realization of "not guilty verdict on the way" and a "cooling off period during the trial" where i dont think there will be a rodney king type riot break out here.

I hope so, I have students and friends of friends who really have no clue how the trial has gone... no clue what the difference between manslaughter and murder two even is... yet have dead set opinions and anger over everything pertaining to the case… we shall see…
 

Irish Houstonian

New member
Messages
2,722
Reaction score
301
^I would tend to agree re: rioting and the differences versus Rodney King.

Also, having been to Sanford too many times, it's not really the densly-populated metro area with lots of storefronts where rioting thrives.

You could see it in maybe some urban pockets of downtown Orlando, but it's hard to imagine rioting elsewhere. (Unless, of course, some people are just looking for a reason to riot, which is always a possibility).
 

Golden_Domer

Member
Messages
200
Reaction score
24
Unfortunately, I think the threat of rioting is very real. Just go on Twitter and search "kill zimmerman" or "zimmerman riot" or, heck, just type in "zimmerman" and look at all the vitriol directed his way. And, yes, Twitter is a good indicator of this sort of stuff. Many of those "criminal flash mobs" in Chicago have been organized via Twitter.
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,379
Reaction score
5,807
Are one of those extra responsibilities firing warning shots when someone is on top of you bashing your head in?

Hell no! Warning shots do nothing but get your gun taken away. Plus, a warning shot at close distance does nothing. If you're getting your head pounded, you probably aren't thinking of all the scenarios you can do. He was in too deep by the time it could have happened.
 

irishpat183

Banned
Messages
5,625
Reaction score
504
That was pretty bazaar to ask the defendant directly are not let the lawyer answer the question for him.

This, and the current "child abuse" charge make this seem more and more like the farce that I thought it was.

They knew they weren't getting murder. They're not dumb. So they're now going to act like "well, SINCE you didn't GIVE us, and the angry mob, murder we'll swing for something else"

Come on. It's pathetic.
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,379
Reaction score
5,807
Having THC in your system isn't a criminal act. Seriously, this is what we are talking about? I'm curious about what THC in the system tends to tell you about the victim, since you keep brining it up.

It means that he is not a law abiding citizen. If he is willing to break the law and perform pot deals and smoke illegal drugs, then is he willing to assault a creepy looking cracker? His Text messages suggest yes.
 

irishpat183

Banned
Messages
5,625
Reaction score
504
^I would tend to agree re: rioting and the differences versus Rodney King.

Also, having been to Sanford too many times, it's not really the densly-populated metro area with lots of storefronts where rioting thrives.

You could see it in maybe some urban pockets of downtown Orlando, but it's hard to imagine rioting elsewhere. (Unless, of course, some people are just looking for a reason to riot, which is always a possibility).

Just pack heat.

Don't see too many riots down here in the great state of Texas, do we Houstonian?
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,379
Reaction score
5,807
Unfortunately, I think the threat of rioting is very real. Just go on Twitter and search "kill zimmerman" or "zimmerman riot" or, heck, just type in "zimmerman" and look at all the vitriol directed his way. And, yes, Twitter is a good indicator of this sort of stuff. Many of those "criminal flash mobs" in Chicago have been organized via Twitter.

And how many of their gun permits have been confiscated?
 

Woneone

New member
Messages
1,445
Reaction score
125
If the judge thought that the evidence of THC in the system was not relevant she would have excluded it based on the prosecution's motion for protective order/motion in limine to exclude the toxicology report. But she didn't. She sided w/ the defense, finding that the jury should have the opportunity to hear it and give it whatever weight they think it deserves.

I wouldn't use the judge as any rational for relevancy in this case. She's completely lost it, doing some real screwed up stuff.

At this point, I think the only thought she's having is, "Please, oh god please, don't let them remember me like Ito".
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,545
Reaction score
28,991
They've been on for a few hours. I turned it off after an hour of listening to the prosecution. I was embarrassed for them.

Yeah, they've been on since 1. It's crazy how different this is from the "polish" of a movie or law & order or other fake court room.
 

SaltyND24

Well-known member
Messages
2,165
Reaction score
484
The weed is not being used by the defense because nobody thinks the weed is what made him attack GZ. The weed should have been admitted because it shows that he has no regard for the law and wasn't the choir boy that we are supposed to think he is.

Random point...but if this were say colorado or washington (I believe) would you still be talking about the weed in his system...And again also, NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THE F*CK HAPPENED THAT NIGHT but the two involved...and just because the survivor gets to tell his story, doesn't make it then true...Anybody who says it's clear what happened that night from beginning to end can have their opinions and comments ignored, because we don't know...The state's case is sh*t we can all agree to a certain point and the number 1 reason is because the other eye witness is dead...The neighbors didn't do anything to help the state but that doesn't mean they are saying that ALL of GZ's recollection of the event is true...they just don't know...They got a small piece of what happened that night, otherwise this would be an open and shut case, either way...There are also plenty of us on here that don't believe GZ is "without guilt" and haven't said a damn word about gun control and/or race being why GZ shot TM...

This case is more of a home run for the defense than it is the prosecution. The Defense gets to share GZ's version of the events EVERYDAY without him having to be cross-examined and only needs to cast doubt on what occured that night...The only way he gets convicted is if the jurors think his story of self-defense is unreasonable...Do I think ALL the jurors will? No, but I'm willing to bet my sweet a** that that doesn't mean they think the man is innocent either...be easy my friends
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,379
Reaction score
5,807
images
 

Golden_Domer

Member
Messages
200
Reaction score
24
I wouldn't use the judge as any rational for relevancy in this case. She's completely lost it, doing some real screwed up stuff.

At this point, I think the only thought she's having is, "Please, oh god please, don't let them remember me like Ito".

Good point. I was just pointing out that it's her job to allow/prevent certain evidence from reaching the jury. At least she got this ruling right and allowed the jury to hear reports of TM's THC levels.
 

phgreek

New member
Messages
6,956
Reaction score
433
Totally bizarre.

that's a judge helping the weak *** prosecution at the direction of the justice department. Good news is, someday we'll be able to confirm contact between the justice department and this judge based on phone records...that privacy thing sucks now, huh judge?

I honestly can't figure a reasonable cause for a judge to raise the issue as she did except to make Zimmerman look like he's afraid to testify, or hiding something...WTF does she care if he does...what procedural or legal issue is at question that even brought this up?
 

NDWorld247

New member
Messages
2,474
Reaction score
302
Yeah, they've been on since 1. It's crazy how different this is from the "polish" of a movie or law & order or other fake court room.

For sure. I've been in a situation where I really wasn't prepared for a speech or presentation and just kept repeating myself and taking long pauses between points I was trying to make to collect myself. This guy looked exactly how I pictured myself looking in that embarrassing situation. For the sake of the Martin family and supporters, I hope his argument improved.
 

Golden_Domer

Member
Messages
200
Reaction score
24
Random point...but if this were say colorado or washington (I believe) would you still be talking about the weed in his system...And again also, NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THE F*CK HAPPENED THAT NIGHT but the two involved...and just because the survivor gets to tell his story, doesn't make it then true...Anybody who says it's clear what happened that night from beginning to end can have their opinions and comments ignored, because we don't know...The state's case is sh*t we can all agree to a certain point and the number 1 reason is because the other eye witness is dead...The neighbors didn't do anything to help the state but that doesn't mean they are saying that ALL of GZ's recollection of the event is true...they just don't know...They got a small piece of what happened that night, otherwise this would be an open and shut case, either way...There are also plenty of us on here that don't believe GZ is "without guilt" and haven't said a damn word about gun control and/or race being why GZ shot TM...

This case is more of a home run for the defense than it is the prosecution. The Defense gets to share GZ's version of the events EVERYDAY without him having to be cross-examined and only needs to cast doubt on what occured that night...The only way he gets convicted is if the jurors think his story of self-defense is unreasonable...Do I think ALL the jurors will? No, but I'm willing to bet my sweet a** that that doesn't mean they think the man is innocent either...be easy my friends

Not trying to put words in drayer's mouth, but if the THC levels were high enough (no pun intended) to indicate there was at least some level of impairment, it would be a relevant point. The legality of said drug would obviously not be a relevant point, but character could also still be an issue.
 

SaltyND24

Well-known member
Messages
2,165
Reaction score
484
Not trying to put words in drayer's mouth, but if the THC levels were high enough (no pun intended) to indicate there was at least some level of impairment, it would be a relevant point. The legality of said drug would obviously not be a relevant point, but character could also still be an issue.

I feel where you're coming from...I just didn't get that vibe from him when he brought it up...Sure the legality would go away, but why would that be a character issue if legal? Couldn't the same then be said for alcohol?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top