#WrongSkin

wizards8507

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I just want to distance myself a little from some of the more seemingly intolerant posts here. As a progressive, these identity issues aren't of paramount importance to me and I wish we would deemphasize them a bit because they don't impact a great number of people. However, my personal feeling toward trans-whatever people is that they can and should do whatever they want to feel like they are living their best life. You only get one life, so I'm not going to stand in judgment of how people want to live theirs unless it is hurting someone else.
It's not about judgment, it's about how best to handle mental health issues. "Treating" gender dysphoria by encouraging the individual to "be" the opposite gender is no different than "treating" anorexia by telling the anorexic person "you're right...you really ARE fat, here are some diet pills" or "treating" paranoia by telling the paranoid person "you're right...everyone really IS out to get you; lock yourself in your house and never come out."

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wizards8507

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Hit the nail on the head. I'm a little surprised at some of the intolerance being displayed in this thread. It's surprisingly disappointing.
The suicide rate of post-SRS individuals is 20 times that of the general population. And THAT'S what you want to promote. Yet I'm the one who lacks compassion. This world is so backwards it makes me sick. Am I also intolerant of anorexic people because I'd rather see them HEALTHY than "happy in their anorexia"?

Paul McHugh: Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution - WSJ

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IrishLax

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I just want to distance myself a little from some of the more seemingly intolerant posts here. As a progressive, these identity issues aren't of paramount importance to me and I wish we would deemphasize them a bit because they don't impact a great number of people. However, my personal feeling toward trans-whatever people is that they can and should do whatever they want to feel like they are living their best life. You only get one life, so I'm not going to stand in judgment of how people want to live theirs unless it is hurting someone else.

Rhode Irish dropping the #yolo.
 

IrishLax

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How many people here know a trans person as more than an aquaintance?
 

ACamp1900

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Two things, one I have never heard anyone say "America sucks", so lets keep it factual. What people are saying is that "America" can do better and should do better. There is nothing wrong with that. We should hold our country to higher standards. We should strive to be better, we should strive to remove as much racism/sexism/ageism, etc. as possible.

A great article
The new threat: 'Racism without racists' - CNN.com

Here is an interesting poll (and by interesting I mean scary as fucking shit).
AP poll: U.S. majority have prejudice against blacks

I'm referring to the seemingly constant emphasis on the negative... There's plenty we do right, but that's never part of the conversation, and if we are really wanting to 'do better' and not just play race politics, part of the solution would be pointing out the good and using that example as well... I don't see it and from my perspective I'm tired of it. That's where I was coming from.
 
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tussin

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I think wizards is making a very compelling argument. The crux of the argument comes down to: is gender dysphoria a mental health issue in the same vein as depression or anorexia? If so, we should find avenues to treat it and not encourage self mutilation as a temporary mental remedy.
 

Black Irish

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I just want to distance myself a little from some of the more seemingly intolerant posts here. As a progressive, these identity issues aren't of paramount importance to me and I wish we would deemphasize them a bit because they don't impact a great number of people. However, my personal feeling toward trans-whatever people is that they can and should do whatever they want to feel like they are living their best life. You only get one life, so I'm not going to stand in judgment of how people want to live theirs unless it is hurting someone else.

You can tolerate something while still having a strong disagreeing opinion on the matter. If a white person wants to pretend to be black or a man wants to pretend to be a woman, OK, it's a free country. I can tolerate those people's existence, but only to a point. I maintain that their behavior is, at best, bizarre and frivolous, and, at worst, damaging to themselves and those around them. Saying "it's a free country, so live your life" is not the same thing as saying "what you are doing is sensible, valid, and must be shielded from any level of critical examination." You can live with bullshit, but you still reserve the right to call it bullshit.
 

DCIrish

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No, the category "white people" is not responsible for it. Specific individuals are responsible for it. Those individuals are dead.

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The specific individuals that you are referring to were white so I don't even know what your point is. Them being dead means nothing because stuff like this is still happening.

https://youtu.be/2O79I9GoLe0
 

ACamp1900

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Not exclusive to this and more of a vast observation but I always find it odd/interesting how we tend to call for racial sensivity while throwing anyone with light skin into the same guilty box of 'white people'
 

DCIrish

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o rly?

Guess it's only one-way

I call your 7 white boys singing a song to 7 black boys kicking the shit out of a white kid.

Singing about hanging a n word from a tree and a kid getting beat up are both bad. It's stupid to try to compare and say which is worse.

There are numerous examples of whites violence towards blacks so it's easy to play that game if you want to.
 

pkt77242

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1. We don't get to redefine words that have had the same meaning since the dawn of language based on fleeting political whims. "Male" means penis and Y-chromosome. It has nothing to do with brain chemistry. Feeling feminine does not make you a female.

2. I think your friends' friends and family did him a disservice. If someone believes a falsehood, it's no kindness to perpetuate that falsehood and encourage mutilating one's body in the pursuit thereof.

3. You still haven't explained why all the logic you laid out wouldn't apply to transabled people (who cut off limbs because they identify as disabled) or this faux-black woman. Why do you believe that gender contra-identification is legitimate but this woman is so far off base?

4. Consider the case of a suicidal person. I'm not talking about a transgendered person, just someone who sincerely believes the world would be a better place if they were dead. Is the right thing to try and identify and heal the source of their pain, or should we just concede that they're right and buy them a gun?

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1. It isn't just brain chemistry, it is physioloigy as well (some parts are bigger or smaller depending on male or female) and it is how the brain creates connections, as well as the chemistry. We have always defined it by penis or vagina (we didn't know about chromosomes until much more recently) because that is easy and until recently it was impossible to look at people's brains. By your reasoning we should never change anything but it has always been that way. Not exactly a good argument.

2. You are entitled to your opinion it doesn't make you right.

3. I have yet to see a study that shows that disabled peoples brains are different from a non-disabled persons brain or that a black person and a white person have vastly different brains.

4. With a suicidal person we treat them as they are a risk to themselves and to others. Death rarely leads to happiness (though I would argue that in some euthanasia cases it can). A fair amount of transgendered people find happiness and I am willing to bet a significant amount more would if they were accepted by society.
 
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pkt77242

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The suicide rate of post-SRS individuals is 20 times that of the general population. And THAT'S what you want to promote. Yet I'm the one who lacks compassion. This world is so backwards it makes me sick. Am I also intolerant of anorexic people because I'd rather see them HEALTHY than "happy in their anorexia"?

Paul McHugh: Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution - WSJ

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I can't see the article since I don't subscribe to WSJ but you do realize that transgendered people are significantly more likely to commit suicide then the regular population as it is, so that study doesn't really mean a whole lot. To truly determine if if the SRS surgery is effective we would have to compare post-op SRS with transgendered people who don't have surgery, then look at suicide rates, happiness, etc. That is like trying to determine if a depression drug is effective by comparing the suicide rates of depressed people on the drug vs. the general population. You would be laughed out of the building.
 

Grahambo

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Singing about hanging a n word from a tree and a kid getting beat up are both bad. It's stupid to try to compare and say which is worse.

There are numerous examples of whites violence towards blacks so it's easy to play that game if you want to.

Also, numerous examples of black violence towards whites. Plenty of examples of violence in general. White vs black gets played up more because Ferguson, Baltimore, NYC, Oakland, etc. People will go protest and cause a raucous which will drive up ratings which is what the 'news' is about these days.

As for people with 'gender identity', I stand behind Wizards in this. And good luck when it comes time to answer for your life.
 

IrishLax

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Singing about hanging a n word from a tree and a kid getting beat up are both bad. It's stupid to try to compare and say which is worse.

There are numerous examples of whites violence towards blacks so it's easy to play that game if you want to.

It's a dumb game, because anecdotes are dumb. I agree with your post... there's no point trying to compare/contrast. It goes both ways.

With that being said, group white on black crime is much less prevalent than the other way around. Crime statistics bear that out. Much of it is because gang violence carries the statistic... if a group of black people in a gang mugs a lone white guy it's not usually because he was white that he got mugged... it's because he was alone that he got mugged. But it'll still show up as a group of black people attacking a white person.

There are exceptions to this though where if you juxtaposed the colors it would be a hate crime and a national story... but because it's black-on-white and not the other way around it gets no attention. One of the most gruesome crimes I've ever read about (or even seen on sensationalized TV like SVU or CSI) involved a group of black people torturing and brutally murdering a white couple for fun... and no one in the media gave a single shit until some right wing blowhard picked it up.

Warning, you will lose your faith in humanity reading this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom
According to the testimony of the Knox County Acting Medical Examiner Dr. Darinka Mileusnic-Polchan at the subsequent trial of Eric Boyd, Newsom was sodomized with an object and then raped by an individual. When his body was discovered near a set of nearby railroad tracks, it was found that he had been bound, blindfolded, gagged, and stripped naked from the waist down. He had been shot in the back of the head, neck, and back and his body had been set on fire.

According to the testimony of the medical examiner, Channon's death came after hours of torture, having suffered injuries to her vagina, anus, and mouth as a result of repeated sexual assaults. It was also reported that her body was scrubbed with bleach which was also poured down her throat, in an attempt by her attackers to remove DNA evidence, while Channon was still alive. She was then bound with curtains and strips of bedding, her face covered with a trash bag and her body stashed within five large trash bags, before being placed inside a residential waste disposal unit and covered with sheets. The medical examiner said there was evidence that Channon slowly suffocated to death.

So a group of blacks gang rape a white girl, then pour bleach down her throat and over her body while she is still alive and then let her suffocate as the bleach slowly burns away her insides... and no one gives a single fuck. Imagine if she was black and the group was white. Obama, Sharpton, etc. would've weighed in, there would have been endless riots, and the national media would've gone on and on and on about racism. White girl? Not a peep.

But a drug dealer with more than a dozen convictions dies under dubious circumstances while in police custody and THAT'S the story the national media thinks we should feel outrage/sadness over... got it. It's why the narrative that "no one cares abut black people" could not be more of an outright lie. As long as the black isn't killed by another black, it's media gold.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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In all seriousness, can one of our progressive IE brothers succinctly articulate why sex is subject to the whims of delusion but race is not?

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Probably not.


It would take some real growth on your part and a "progressive," or advancing understanding of life. Love you man, but I just don't see the open mindedness and resultant growth.

Here goes anyways. Gender is an inherent personal identity with a physiological component and is basic to each of our personal identities, and is found deeply in makeup of our personality.

Racial identity is very much higher up, more in the social, not fundamental individual arena. Consequently, who we are is by in large formed before we lay on racial, (or class) identities.

In other words, we all are either boys, girls, or not sure, at a much earlier age than we are truly cognizant of whether we are black or white.

That is how everyone easily survived when the white people who for generations had claimed to be descendants of Thomas Jefferson sued the black descendants of Sally Hemming, when they asserted that they were also.

After a huge law suit, much money spent, and some really comprehensive, cutting DNA testing, it turned out that all the (black/black looking) descendants of Sally Hemming were descendants of Thomas Jefferson, and none of the white looking folk, who had been hanging on Jefferson's name for generations, were.

Not one of those folks, white or black had any ambiguity (that has been reported or observed) of sexuality; black or white, they all were readily identifiable as men or women.

So, sometimes ones "race," and remember that "modern racial grouping" is an entirely arbitrary fiction made up by the most pretentious, arrogant, officious, white men ever, those who claimed to be English. Not only are their hypothesis and premises unclear, but the divisions they observed do not remain clearly genetically expressed.

But, since racists, who identified 'tendencies' of different races were so criminally stupid, inept, ignorant of any facts, and unconcerned with the truth, we can not find a simple behavioral expression absolutely based on race.

Even though the main legacy of these eugenics-based nincompoops, is the same muddled thinking today, even though it has been disproved in its entirety. I guess the average person still believes their skin color makes the first fucking bit of differences as to who they are, and therefore how they mint act,

We can however find many different behavioral expressions based upon gender.

I am surprised, frankly, that some of you found the right thing to poke, for your own gender preference, that is, with this kind of general lack of understand of the way the world works around you. Best of luck with all of that!

PS. The only thing I will add after viewing the posts to this thread while I was leisurely preparing my original post is that there are some incredibly incorrect statement being tossed casually about.

I won't even comment about the race stuff, much of which indicates (speaking of brain chemistry) that some individuals are wired to a 'tribal only' view of the world.

As far as gender, which is the plateau when speaking of modern humans, it is more than just genetics, and chemistry.

Talking about any of this with certainty, armed with nothing but a high school or college misunderstanding is foolish. I found a really good paragraph that shows the folly :

Humans, as well as some other organisms, can have a chromosomal arrangement that is contrary to their phenotypic sex; for example, XX males or XY females (see androgen insensitivity syndrome). Additionally, an abnormal number of sex chromosomes (aneuploidy) may be present, such as Turner's syndrome, in which a single X chromosome is present, and Klinefelter's syndrome, in which two X chromosomes and a Y chromosome are present, XYY syndrome and XXYY syndrome.[1] Other less common chromosomal arrangements include: triple X syndrome, 48, XXXX, and 49, XXXXX.
 
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pkt77242

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It's a dumb game, because anecdotes are dumb. I agree with your post... there's no point trying to compare/contrast. It goes both ways.

With that being said, group white on black crime is much less prevalent than the other way around. Crime statistics bear that out. Much of it is because gang violence carries the statistic... if a group of black people in a gang mugs a lone white guy it's not usually because he was white that he got mugged... it's because he was alone that he got mugged. But it'll still show up as a group of black people attacking a white person.

There are exceptions to this though where if you juxtaposed the colors it would be a hate crime and a national story... but because it's black-on-white and not the other way around it gets no attention. One of the most gruesome crimes I've ever read about (or even seen on sensationalized TV like SVU or CSI) involved a group of black people torturing and brutally murdering a white couple for fun... and no one in the media gave a single shit until some right wing blowhard picked it up.

Warning, you will lose your faith in humanity reading this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom


So a group of blacks gang rape a white girl, then pour bleach down her throat and over her body while she is still alive and then let her suffocate as the bleach slowly burns away her insides... and no one gives a single fuck. Imagine if she was black and the group was white. Obama, Sharpton, etc. would've weighed in, there would have been endless riots, and the national media would've gone on and on and on about racism. White girl? Not a peep.

But a drug dealer with more than a dozen convictions dies under dubious circumstances while in police custody and THAT'S the story the national media thinks we should feel outrage/sadness over... got it. It's why the narrative that "no one cares abut black people" could not be more of an outright lie. As long as the black isn't killed by another black, it's media gold.

There is no doubt that that is a horrific crime and there is no doubt that the perpetrators of the crime deserve to die (or life without parole if you don't believe in the death penalty). It should have gotten more coverage. There is no controversy with that crime, it is about finding those responsible and holding them accountable.

When a person dies in police custody under dubious circumstances it is controversial because we expect cops to protect us not kill us. Just like when two gang members shoot each other it isn't controversial it might even be expected, so while it is sad it isn't controversial. We should be outraged when anyone dies of violence, but it only becomes controversial when it is something like a cop killing the person under dubious circumstances.
 

IrishLax

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There is no doubt that that is a horrific crime and there is no doubt that the perpetrators of the crime deserve to die (or life without parole if you don't believe in the death penalty). It should have gotten more coverage. There is no controversy with that crime, it is about finding those responsible and holding them accountable.

When a person dies in police custody under dubious circumstances it is controversial because we expect cops to protect us not kill us. Just like when two gang members shoot each other it isn't controversial it might even be expected, so while it is sad it isn't controversial. We should be outraged when anyone dies of violence, but it only becomes controversial when it is something like a cop killing the person under dubious circumstances.

You're right, the controversial aspect that is important to news stations, as that's what determines if it can become a conversation piece. That's why Trayvon Martin, etc. intrigue so many people... it's the debate aspect. I get it, I just hate it.

I'm personally jaded against the media because of the Duke lacrosse case. A group of privileged white people might have sexually assaulted a black person... national news, immediate arrest and perp walk, protests, marches, and every talking head out there talking to us about evil, entitled white people assaulting this poor innocent black woman..... it then turns out to be all lies (but Sharpton, etc. never apologize of course) and the "poor innocent girl" ends up a murderer.

I just get so fucking sick of what the media chooses to make a big deal versus what not to care about. They have so much power. And it makes it really easy to cherry pick isolated incidents and use them as anecdotes about a group as a whole.

So that was really the point of me posting the above... to illustrate that you can find really, really bad stuff about any group if you try hard enough because there are so many people in this world someone is bound to have done something terrible. There is an entire industry built around racism that needs white people to be racist in order to exist. That's why #WrongSkin Rachel sent herself hate mail, planted a noose, drew a swastika on her own door, etc. She has a vested financial interest in people believing that "white people" had sent her "black" self hate mail.

I wish we could get to the point as a society where this wouldn't be the case, but as long as there are multi-million dollar corporations... sorry, "non-profit organizations"... built on racial activism there will ALWAYS be incentive to push a negative message instead of actually working to mitigate or eliminate the problem.
 

Rhode Irish

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With that being said, group white on black crime is much less prevalent than the other way around. Crime statistics bear that out.

To be fair, you don't have to go too far back in history for it to be completely flipped.
 

wizards8507

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The specific individuals that you are referring to were white so I don't even know what your point is. Them being dead means nothing because stuff like this is still happening.

https://youtu.be/2O79I9GoLe0
My point is that I object to shared guilt and collective condemnation. I hold individuals responsible for their grievous actions. I don't assign the blame to every member of whatever group they belong to.

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gkIrish

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To be fair, you don't have to go too far back in history for it to be completely flipped.

If you're alluding to slavery I don't think that's fair at all. I'll never understand the "slavery justifies/explains/excuses _____" discourse in 2015.
 

pkt77242

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My point is that I object to shared guilt and collective condemnation. I hold individuals responsible for their grievous actions. I don't assign the blame to every member of whatever group they belong to.

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While I generally agree with that, is there a tipping point where society is the problem?

AP poll: U.S. majority have prejudice against blacks
In all, 51% of Americans now express explicit anti-black attitudes, compared with 48% in a similar 2008 survey. When measured by an implicit racial attitudes test, the number of Americans with anti-black sentiments jumped to 56%, up from 49% during the last presidential election. In both tests, the share of Americans expressing pro-black attitudes fell.

Most Americans expressed anti-Hispanic sentiments, too. In an AP survey done in 2011, 52% of non-Hispanic whites expressed anti-Hispanic attitudes. That figure rose to 57% in the implicit test

That is stunning numbers and seems to point to something larger then the individual.
 

gkIrish

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While I generally agree with that, is there a tipping point where society is the problem?

AP poll: U.S. majority have prejudice against blacks




That is stunning numbers and seems to point to something larger then the individual.

That is a stunning number. Especially surprised with the "express" percentage. I will say that the likely jump from 2008 is due to two things:
(a) Obama
(b) All the recent media/riots. I'm no expert but IMO white Americans are becoming resentful towards blacks because of it. In other words, whites who weren't previously racist exhibit more negative thoughts towards blacks because the non-racist whites are constantly lumped together with the racist whites.
 

Rhode Irish

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If you're alluding to slavery I don't think that's fair at all. I'll never understand the "slavery justifies/explains/excuses _____" discourse in 2015.

I don't think you have to go that far back. It was only a few decades ago, not a few centuries, that whites could do whatever they wanted to blacks with impunity in many parts of this country.

Welcome back, man. Good to see you.
 
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phork

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Just be like me. Hate everyone equally. No problems.
 

dshans

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Just be like me. Hate everyone equally. No problems.

There ya go!

Less is more.

Reductio ad absurdum or whatevs.

Absolut is clear and brings on The Absolute.




I'm full of shit ... until my next BM.
 
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