Upshot for the Rest of the Class (2014 Edition)

gkIrish

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Here's the way I look at it. A few months ago we were talking about whether Utopo was a keep and it was a foregone conclusion that Massa and Collinsworth were gone. The class is very good overall and we filled all our needs. But we really didn't close well at all if you look at things objectively. Lost 2 guys and picked up 2. So now we are undersigned by 3? spots with Heggie going to Ball St. and a couple of our scholarship players are 5th years that aren't that good.

In other words, nice class that filled needs but left a lot to be desired in terms of numbers.
 

Ironman8

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You were talking to Piombino, not me. I was just opining on the "small class" note.

That being said, I would sign to the roster limit, when possible. I would fill it with bodies and let highly thought of kids commit early if they are willing to jump on board (Hubbard, Hendrix, etc). Ultimately, you can't guess how things will play out either way. So I would err on filling the class. Then attrition, injuries and transfers would work itself out. That is what I would do.

Agree to disagree then, as we will never come to an agreement. I don't think a viable plan should ever be based on a "it will work itself out" philosophy, but that's just me. I hear what you are saying about us always being under, but you'd rather be a couple under with spots open for a Quick, JuJu, Alexander, etc late then not.

Having 1 or 2 extra space fillers on scholarship just to get to 85 is not the difference between ND and a NC, but kids like Quick and Juju can be.
 
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See also: Every class ever.

The-Dude-Finds-That-Very-Interesting-In-Big-Lebowski.gif
 

woolybug25

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Agree to disagree then, as we will never come to an agreement. I don't think a viable plan should ever be based on a "it will work itself out" philosophy, but that's just me. I hear what you are saying about us always being under, but you'd rather be a couple under with spots open for a Quick, JuJu, Alexander, etc late then not.

Having 1 or 2 extra space fillers on scholarship just to get to 85 is not the difference between ND and a NC, but kids like Quick and Juju can be.

This is why I think we should sign this way. If we miss on Quick and JuJu, we just sit there with open spots with no talent developing in those positions. Then you have guys like Hendrix, Hubbard, etc that go to other teams and build depth for them. We consistently have 5th year guys that only get a scholly because its open. Shoot, we would have given Heggie a scholly this year.

Teams like Bama don't build that insane depth by passing on good recruits and trying to play the number game. We don't have all of the over signing options they do, but we could have signed more players in every class we've had under BK. So there is obviously room for improvement there. Playing the number game has bit us in the ass every year as long as I can remember. So I don't see why we keep continuing the same process and expecting different results.

If you want an example, lets use our Mokwuah convo from the other thread. Saban would have taken him despite taking 4 DT's in this class, 2 in '13, 4 in '12 and 4 in '11. They have literally signed 14 DT's in the last four years and were willing to take a risk on signing a 3 star kid this class as well. That's how the big boys play.
 

wizards8507

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Agree to disagree then, as we will never come to an agreement. I don't think a viable plan should ever be based on a "it will work itself out" philosophy, but that's just me. I hear what you are saying about us always being under, but you'd rather be a couple under with spots open for a Quick, JuJu, Alexander, etc late then not.

Having 1 or 2 extra space fillers on scholarship just to get to 85 is not the difference between ND and a NC, but kids like Quick and Juju can be.

But independent of 5th years, we wouldn't have landed those two guys.
 

Ironman8

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This is why I think we should sign this way. If we miss on Quick and JuJu, we just sit there with open spots with no talent developing in those positions. Then you have guys like Hendrix, Hubbard, etc that go to other teams and build depth for them. We consistently have 5th year guys that only get a scholly because its open. Shoot, we would have given Heggie a scholly this year.

Teams like Bama don't build that insane depth by passing on good recruits and trying to play the number game. We don't have all of the over signing options they do, but we could have signed more players in every class we've had under BK. So there is obviously room for improvement there. Playing the number game has bit us in the ass every year as long as I can remember. So I don't see why we keep continuing the same process and expecting different results.

If you want an example, lets use our Mokwuah convo from the other thread. Saban would have taken him despite taking 4 DT's in this class, 2 in '13, 4 in '12 and 4 in '11. They have literally signed 14 DT's in the last four years and were willing to take a risk on signing a 3 star kid this class as well. That's how the big boys play.

We can't recruit like Bama. Period. If you have to constantly compare recruiting style and tactics to them to gauge where ND is as a program, then I can't help you. You will never see progress, and we have nothing more to discuss.

ND has to recruit differently than most programs. Stanford would be the closest comparison to use. Where have their recruiting ranks been? Where is it now? I'd say we compare pretty favorably, and they have certainly shown they can play with anyone. They simply have recruited and developed the lines better for the late part of Weis' tenure and very early BK years. Now I think the pendulum is swinging back to ND.

Let's table this discussion until we see the on field product in '14 -'16. Barring BK leaving, if we are not one of the top programs in the nation I will be absolutely shocked.
 

IrishLax

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This class is the most underrated class we've ever had since I've followed recruiting. You guys know I'm pessimistic, and I'm not just saying this to say it. There are practically no headcases in this class. Almost every single kid has the mindset you need to succeed here... there are hardly any that I look at and see the typical red flags.

Tremendous quality across the board, and a large amount of really undervalued guys. I believe Brent is going to be a star. I think Weishar, if he bulks up, could be absolutely ridiculous as a TE. Trumbetti is one hell of an athlete... he has 5:s: athleticism, but he's white playing DE so #Rivals3:s: Quenton Nelson might not have a "prototypical" OT build, but he is an unbelievable prospect. You know who else didn't have a prototypical OT build? Zach Martin. Yeah, I went there.

Needs? Got a top 5 ILB in Morgan + Martini + Sykes. Yeah, that's a home run. Interior DL? Really the only position I don't think we hit "great"... but we did address it pretty darn well if you consider Jay Hayes playing inside in a 4-3.

Anyways... just think this is a truly great class. A lot of underappreciated guys like Kolin Hill and Johnny Williams who have absurd upside. A lot of great mindset guys, not #BangBang. A lot of talent top to bottom. No gamebreaker Jabrill Peppers type guys... but it has everything else. And you can win a LOT of football games by having a tough, talented, focused football team without superstars (see: MSU, Stanford, KSU, etc. etc. etc.)
 

ryno 24

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I agree Lax, quality class. We filled out the needs of the class and even got a bunch of studs. We filled out our skill guys last year. The only guy I really wanted was Quick, but we did everything we needed.
 

Ironman8

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>BK: getting to 85 scholarship players is huge.</p>— Irish Sports Daily (@ISDUpdate) <a href="https://twitter.com/ISDUpdate/statuses/431124520926052352">February 5, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

Irish#1

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So many variables go into whether a kid is a success at the college level whether he be a 3 star or 5 star. The biggest is the "size of the fight in the dog". From what we know about this class, I think they could be outstanding.
 

RDU Irish

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"Sometimes I would be better off putting an orange cone out there." funny
 

Old Man Mike

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Please forgive the following ramble: speaking here of numbers and ultimate quality starting players.

About recruiting and the long term --- I stated my unpopular opinion that, given the unpredictability of actual college performance by recruited high schoolers, one COULD take the view [as a fan] that a recruiting class is a good class if it produces around 9-10 starters by Junior/Senior years [therefore you would have about 19 solid veterans on your 22+specialists starting roster] and several other contributing players [i.e. decent back-ups].

One COULD judge the success of the recruiting of a given year by seeing whether years produced that standard or not. This judgement would go for classes already juniors or seniors, but younger classes would have to undergo a more guesswork judgement.

The 2010 class was Coach'e first, and he did as well as one could expect. Nix, Lombard, Jones, Shembo, Collinsworth, Jackson, Rees, and Spond {8} ultimately started, and Schwenke became a sometimes starter. What the class didn't have was depth [understandably] with only guys like DSmith, Utupo, LWood, Hendrix, Moore, Welch. Still, not bad for a scramble.

2011 was a knockout despite the odd losses. Tuitt, Golson, Niklas, Grace, McDaniel, GAIII, Daniels, Farley, NMart, Koyack, Brindza, and many other major contributors: Hegarty, IWilliams, Councell, Springmann, Hanratty, Hardy, Carlisle, and one year Hounshell. This is the class which with holdover veterans we have "ridden" so far [and if Tuitt and Niklas would have stayed, still would.]

2012 was our small class and to date our big disappointment. But we have not seen yet what they will become. To date they look suspiciously like the 2010 class. Russell, Day, Stanley, and the specialist Daly already start --- that is just fine for second years. Jones looks like he might start next year after finally waking up. Baratti if he was healthy or Shumate might well fill the safety spot now or soon. Okwara threatens to emerge. Brown seems at the edge of that too. Maybe Prosise. But this class is thin and loses depth.

2013 seems to have been another knockout fortunately. JSmith, Elmer, Redfield, Folston Luke, Rochell, Fuller{?} seem already ready to roll. Robinson, too. Maybe Onwualu. All those guys have contributed already. And the redshirt "bench" is loaded. Thank goodness Kelly has bracketed 2012 with two loaded classes.

So what does this say if anything about 2014? Of course one wants a full-boat of All-Americans, but you don't really need that. I look at the 2014 boat passengers and see a lot more 2013 and 2011 in them JUST AS THEY ARE, than I see 2012. I see four mountainous OLinemen, probably the best group in the nation. I see a great wideout. I see two fine TEs to keep "Tight End U" going. I a handful of high-potential DLinemen, and a linebacking corps led by an apparent superman. I see two very good DBacks.

On the 9 or 10 Junior/Senior starter standard, that's a lot folks. I'm pretty darned happy with this. "85" be dammed. {I get mocked for this, but we're "small" next year, and badly small if we'd max-out the signing.}
 

connor_in

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This class is the most underrated class we've ever had since I've followed recruiting. You guys know I'm pessimistic, and I'm not just saying this to say it. There are practically no headcases in this class. Almost every single kid has the mindset you need to succeed here... there are hardly any that I look at and see the typical red flags.

Tremendous quality across the board, and a large amount of really undervalued guys. I believe Brent is going to be a star. I think Weishar, if he bulks up, could be absolutely ridiculous as a TE. Trumbetti is one hell of an athlete... he has 5:s: athleticism, but he's white playing DE so #Rivals3:s: Quenton Nelson might not have a "prototypical" OT build, but he is an unbelievable prospect. You know who else didn't have a prototypical OT build? Zach Martin. Yeah, I went there.

Needs? Got a top 5 ILB in Morgan + Martini + Sykes. Yeah, that's a home run. Interior DL? Really the only position I don't think we hit "great"... but we did address it pretty darn well if you consider Jay Hayes playing inside in a 4-3.

Anyways... just think this is a truly great class. A lot of underappreciated guys like Kolin Hill and Johnny Williams who have absurd upside. A lot of great mindset guys, not #BangBang. A lot of talent top to bottom. No gamebreaker Jabrill Peppers type guys... but it has everything else. And you can win a LOT of football games by having a tough, talented, focused football team without superstars (see: MSU, Stanford, KSU, etc. etc. etc.)

?????????
 

md_bennett

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I'm done with this class....moving on to 2015 and the longing for young men who are Juniors in high school once again. God I feel like a creep lol.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Please forgive the following ramble: speaking here of numbers and ultimate quality starting players.

About recruiting and the long term --- I stated my unpopular opinion that, given the unpredictability of actual college performance by recruited high schoolers, one COULD take the view [as a fan] that a recruiting class is a good class if it produces around 9-10 starters by Junior/Senior years [therefore you would have about 19 solid veterans on your 22+specialists starting roster] and several other contributing players [i.e. decent back-ups].

One COULD judge the success of the recruiting of a given year by seeing whether years produced that standard or not. This judgement would go for classes already juniors or seniors, but younger classes would have to undergo a more guesswork judgement.

The 2010 class was Coach'e first, and he did as well as one could expect. Nix, Lombard, Jones, Shembo, Collinsworth, Jackson, Rees, and Spond {8} ultimately started, and Schwenke became a sometimes starter. What the class didn't have was depth [understandably] with only guys like DSmith, Utupo, LWood, Hendrix, Moore, Welch. Still, not bad for a scramble.

2011 was a knockout despite the odd losses. Tuitt, Golson, Niklas, Grace, McDaniel, GAIII, Daniels, Farley, NMart, Koyack, Brindza, and many other major contributors: Hegarty, IWilliams, Councell, Springmann, Hanratty, Hardy, Carlisle, and one year Hounshell. This is the class which with holdover veterans we have "ridden" so far [and if Tuitt and Niklas would have stayed, still would.]

2012 was our small class and to date our big disappointment. But we have not seen yet what they will become. To date they look suspiciously like the 2010 class. Russell, Day, Stanley, and the specialist Daly already start --- that is just fine for second years. Jones looks like he might start next year after finally waking up. Baratti if he was healthy or Shumate might well fill the safety spot now or soon. Okwara threatens to emerge. Brown seems at the edge of that too. Maybe Prosise. But this class is thin and loses depth.

2013 seems to have been another knockout fortunately. JSmith, Elmer, Redfield, Folston Luke, Rochell, Fuller{?} seem already ready to roll. Robinson, too. Maybe Onwualu. All those guys have contributed already. And the redshirt "bench" is loaded. Thank goodness Kelly has bracketed 2012 with two loaded classes.

So what does this say if anything about 2014? Of course one wants a full-boat of All-Americans, but you don't really need that. I look at the 2014 boat passengers and see a lot more 2013 and 2011 in them JUST AS THEY ARE, than I see 2012. I see four mountainous OLinemen, probably the best group in the nation. I see a great wideout. I see two fine TEs to keep "Tight End U" going. I a handful of high-potential DLinemen, and a linebacking corps led by an apparent superman. I see two very good DBacks.

On the 9 or 10 Junior/Senior starter standard, that's a lot folks. I'm pretty darned happy with this. "85" be dammed. {I get mocked for this, but we're "small" next year, and badly small if we'd max-out the signing.}

I agree with anything you have to say. About '14 : It is the fastest overall class in the Kelly era; the defensive line players almost to the T has a sky is limit potential; the potential is somewhat camouflaged by the development work that needs to be done.
 

ThePiombino

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Please forgive the following ramble: speaking here of numbers and ultimate quality starting players.

About recruiting and the long term --- I stated my unpopular opinion that, given the unpredictability of actual college performance by recruited high schoolers, one COULD take the view [as a fan] that a recruiting class is a good class if it produces around 9-10 starters by Junior/Senior years [therefore you would have about 19 solid veterans on your 22+specialists starting roster] and several other contributing players [i.e. decent back-ups].

One COULD judge the success of the recruiting of a given year by seeing whether years produced that standard or not. This judgement would go for classes already juniors or seniors, but younger classes would have to undergo a more guesswork judgement.

The 2010 class was Coach'e first, and he did as well as one could expect. Nix, Lombard, Jones, Shembo, Collinsworth, Jackson, Rees, and Spond {8} ultimately started, and Schwenke became a sometimes starter. What the class didn't have was depth [understandably] with only guys like DSmith, Utupo, LWood, Hendrix, Moore, Welch. Still, not bad for a scramble.

2011 was a knockout despite the odd losses. Tuitt, Golson, Niklas, Grace, McDaniel, GAIII, Daniels, Farley, NMart, Koyack, Brindza, and many other major contributors: Hegarty, IWilliams, Councell, Springmann, Hanratty, Hardy, Carlisle, and one year Hounshell. This is the class which with holdover veterans we have "ridden" so far [and if Tuitt and Niklas would have stayed, still would.]

2012 was our small class and to date our big disappointment. But we have not seen yet what they will become. To date they look suspiciously like the 2010 class. Russell, Day, Stanley, and the specialist Daly already start --- that is just fine for second years. Jones looks like he might start next year after finally waking up. Baratti if he was healthy or Shumate might well fill the safety spot now or soon. Okwara threatens to emerge. Brown seems at the edge of that too. Maybe Prosise. But this class is thin and loses depth.

2013 seems to have been another knockout fortunately. JSmith, Elmer, Redfield, Folston Luke, Rochell, Fuller{?} seem already ready to roll. Robinson, too. Maybe Onwualu. All those guys have contributed already. And the redshirt "bench" is loaded. Thank goodness Kelly has bracketed 2012 with two loaded classes.

So what does this say if anything about 2014? Of course one wants a full-boat of All-Americans, but you don't really need that. I look at the 2014 boat passengers and see a lot more 2013 and 2011 in them JUST AS THEY ARE, than I see 2012. I see four mountainous OLinemen, probably the best group in the nation. I see a great wideout. I see two fine TEs to keep "Tight End U" going. I a handful of high-potential DLinemen, and a linebacking corps led by an apparent superman. I see two very good DBacks.

On the 9 or 10 Junior/Senior starter standard, that's a lot folks. I'm pretty darned happy with this. "85" be dammed. {I get mocked for this, but we're "small" next year, and badly small if we'd max-out the signing.}

Great post, OMM. Brings some interesting perspective to this class for those who are considering it a disappointment or underwhelming.
 

Booslum31

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Please forgive the following ramble: speaking here of numbers and ultimate quality starting players.

About recruiting and the long term --- I stated my unpopular opinion that, given the unpredictability of actual college performance by recruited high schoolers, one COULD take the view [as a fan] that a recruiting class is a good class if it produces around 9-10 starters by Junior/Senior years [therefore you would have about 19 solid veterans on your 22+specialists starting roster] and several other contributing players [i.e. decent back-ups].

One COULD judge the success of the recruiting of a given year by seeing whether years produced that standard or not. This judgement would go for classes already juniors or seniors, but younger classes would have to undergo a more guesswork judgement.

The 2010 class was Coach'e first, and he did as well as one could expect. Nix, Lombard, Jones, Shembo, Collinsworth, Jackson, Rees, and Spond {8} ultimately started, and Schwenke became a sometimes starter. What the class didn't have was depth [understandably] with only guys like DSmith, Utupo, LWood, Hendrix, Moore, Welch. Still, not bad for a scramble.

2011 was a knockout despite the odd losses. Tuitt, Golson, Niklas, Grace, McDaniel, GAIII, Daniels, Farley, NMart, Koyack, Brindza, and many other major contributors: Hegarty, IWilliams, Councell, Springmann, Hanratty, Hardy, Carlisle, and one year Hounshell. This is the class which with holdover veterans we have "ridden" so far [and if Tuitt and Niklas would have stayed, still would.]

2012 was our small class and to date our big disappointment. But we have not seen yet what they will become. To date they look suspiciously like the 2010 class. Russell, Day, Stanley, and the specialist Daly already start --- that is just fine for second years. Jones looks like he might start next year after finally waking up. Baratti if he was healthy or Shumate might well fill the safety spot now or soon. Okwara threatens to emerge. Brown seems at the edge of that too. Maybe Prosise. But this class is thin and loses depth.

2013 seems to have been another knockout fortunately. JSmith, Elmer, Redfield, Folston Luke, Rochell, Fuller{?} seem already ready to roll. Robinson, too. Maybe Onwualu. All those guys have contributed already. And the redshirt "bench" is loaded. Thank goodness Kelly has bracketed 2012 with two loaded classes.

So what does this say if anything about 2014? Of course one wants a full-boat of All-Americans, but you don't really need that. I look at the 2014 boat passengers and see a lot more 2013 and 2011 in them JUST AS THEY ARE, than I see 2012. I see four mountainous OLinemen, probably the best group in the nation. I see a great wideout. I see two fine TEs to keep "Tight End U" going. I a handful of high-potential DLinemen, and a linebacking corps led by an apparent superman. I see two very good DBacks.

On the 9 or 10 Junior/Senior starter standard, that's a lot folks. I'm pretty darned happy with this. "85" be dammed. {I get mocked for this, but we're "small" next year, and badly small if we'd max-out the signing.}

Great synopsis OMM. I think the key her is the coaching task that is ahead. We always talk about kelly's ability to coach his team up "look what he did at Cincy". If each of these guys reach their true potential and Kelly taps that potential...things will be great. I like the profile that we seemed to be going after this year...speed and motor. These are two things that are inate in my opinion. Coaching up with a good scheme can take care of everything else. Hat's off to the staff on a well fought recruiting battle. Now on to 2015...we need a lights out RB.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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This class is the most underrated class we've ever had since I've followed recruiting. You guys know I'm pessimistic, and I'm not just saying this to say it. There are practically no headcases in this class. Almost every single kid has the mindset you need to succeed here... there are hardly any that I look at and see the typical red flags.

Tremendous quality across the board, and a large amount of really undervalued guys. I believe Brent is going to be a star. I think Weishar, if he bulks up, could be absolutely ridiculous as a TE. Trumbetti is one hell of an athlete... he has 5:s: athleticism, but he's white playing DE so #Rivals3:s: Quenton Nelson might not have a "prototypical" OT build, but he is an unbelievable prospect. You know who else didn't have a prototypical OT build? Zach Martin. Yeah, I went there.

Needs? Got a top 5 ILB in Morgan + Martini + Sykes. Yeah, that's a home run. Interior DL? Really the only position I don't think we hit "great"... but we did address it pretty darn well if you consider Jay Hayes playing inside in a 4-3.

Anyways... just think this is a truly great class. A lot of underappreciated guys like Kolin Hill and Johnny Williams who have absurd upside. A lot of great mindset guys, not #BangBang. A lot of talent top to bottom. No gamebreaker Jabrill Peppers type guys... but it has everything else. And you can win a LOT of football games by having a tough, talented, focused football team without superstars (see: MSU, Stanford, KSU, etc. etc. etc.)

Agreed. To add on --- (and you know I never use dashes) ----- what appears to be happening is a metamorphosis in recruiting. We are loading up with guys with high ceilings. Guys to develop. If you can't recruit a hand, get a Williams or Blankenship and develop. I don't know that I think a Hand has that much higher a ceiling than a Blankenship, or a Williams. Load your roster, and take the time to develop the players, just like Stanford and MSU.

I heard three or four educated people that put Morgan as #2 inside (really). And Hayes, Mokwuah and Cage as a really good complementary group.
 
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