Trump Presidency

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pkt77242

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Another country dicking around with our election? What about our own country (Democrats and CNN) dicking around with our election? That's okay I guess. Did it make it okay for Hillary to delete thousands of e-mails when she was told not to? Was it okay to take money from foreign dignitaries? Was it okay to accept the debate questions ahead of the debates? Was it okay for the DNC to meddle in the primary and rig the election against Bernie? That's not even the whole list. Again, how is Russia exposing the truth worse than what Hillary's camp has done? It's not like they hacked election terminals and changed Hillary votes to Trump. They brought to light corruption. Was it self serving? Possibly, but it's not like Hillary was going to be any harder on Russia than Obama was. If Russia plans on being diplomatic with Trump we're better served than if we go into another Cold War or roll over as Russia has it's way with the East.

I have posted my thoughts many times before on the DNC (and RNC), basically they they need to have zero responsibility for picking our President (been on that band wagon for along time). If you think that this is the first time that the DNC and RNC have been involved in fixing a primary (or pressuring people to stay out, etc.) then I don't know what to tell you. I am for an open primary in every state on the same day. I think that something like ranking your top 3 candidates in order and then maybe the top 3 candidates move to the general election (maybe with a minimum point threshold) and having a winner take all final election (removing the electoral college). That way maybe we can get a more centrist candidate elected.

How about you add Comey to that list, since he is from the U.S and dicked around in the election?

I get it, you think that Hillary is the Devil. There is nothing wrong with that but to think that Russia's involvement is somehow ok because they just "exposed the truth" is laughable. If you don't think that most organizations have emails on their servers that would severely damage their reputation, then I don't know what to tell you. They didn't expose the "truth" they were used to try and sway our election, so not exactly benign.

Again, Russia trying to sway our election (For the record, I don't think it was swayed by their releases) is beyond the pale. We should never accept or condone a country doing that. Doesn't matter who they did it too. If they did it to Trump I would have been outraged (just as I will be outraged if it does turn out that they have blackmail on Trump).
 

pkt77242

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I find Russia dicking around disturbing.
I find the reality of HRC disturbing.
I find the same about pres elect Trump disturbing.
I find how easy it is to predict who will defend what posts disturbing.

Hey I wanted a Kaine or Warner vs Kasich finale. FML.
 

ACamp1900

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Hey I wanted a Kaine or Warner vs Kasich finale. FML.

Hey I was here first.... you'll have to admit my tastes in beer are real good for a po boy from round the way before I allow them to let you in the door.........
 

pkt77242

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Hey I was here first.... you'll have to admit my tastes in beer are real good for a po boy from round the way before I allow them to let you in the door.........

Of course your tastes in beer are real good for a po boy from round the way, they just aren't as good as my taste in beer :cheers:
 

ACamp1900

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Of course your tastes in beer are real good for a po boy from round the way, they just aren't as good as my taste in beer :cheers:

Baby steps. See guys, this is how healing starts,... or wars, not sure which....
 

phgreek

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Today I learned that white Americans owe blacks, Indians (feathers, not dots), and Irish people.

Since I am white, but also at least 25%, maybe more, Irish, do I pay out or do I take in?

Holy crap...I'm just south of 50% irish...so, do I get to be a disadvantaged business now...thus far I give up 10 points to disadvantaged businesses every time I compete .... now I get 10 points???? Bring that shit on...
 

Irish#1

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LOL. So you can read my mind? As I have stated many times before I think that it is ridiculous that the DNC and RNC have any say in how we elect our President. I think that the what the DNC did is shitty and horrible (and just another reason why both the DNC and RNC need to go) but I wouldn't in anyway compare it to Russia's involvement (Also if you think that this is the first time that the DNC or RNC has tried to influence the nomination I got some ocean front property in AZ to sell you).

Curious as to why you wouldn't compare it, because both were going after the same intended results. Now if Russian hacking could have netted a worse or greater effect, I could see your point, but both the Russians and DNC were after the same results.

FTR.....I do not like Russia or any other country trying to influence our elections. Maybe if we quit trying to influence other countries elections we wouldn't have this problem? Global politics at its finest.
 

connor_in

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Ha. Odd how they're missing numerous other lines/graphs for things like Workforce Part. Rate, Poverty numbers, # of those on Welfare, months of 2% or lower economic growth, number of people kicked off their plans due to OCare, average household income, national unity, they love using GDP as a side measure but for some reason didn't measure GDP itself. ... I can't imagine why stuff like that isn't included....

Q60c3Rh.jpg
 

kmoose

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LOL. So you can read my mind? As I have stated many times before I think that it is ridiculous that the DNC and RNC have any say in how we elect our President. I think that the what the DNC did is shitty and horrible (and just another reason why both the DNC and RNC need to go) but I wouldn't in anyway compare it to Russia's involvement (Also if you think that this is the first time that the DNC or RNC has tried to influence the nomination I got some ocean front property in AZ to sell you).

I will say it again, another country dicking around in our election is worse than the CNN/DNC issue. If you want to talk about someone in the US dicking around in our election, Comey is a better example. He broke the longstanding DOJ "rule" about interfering with an election.

Is it coincidence that the only meddling that you appear to be outraged by, and want to highlight, is the meddling that worked AGAINST Hillary Clinton?
 

phgreek

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most of that is fair...and it doesn't even get into an assessment of foreign policy, Iran, Syria, and really the entirety of the middle east, nor does it touch any kind of military readiness concerns. Nor does it point to scandals and coverups (IRS). Nor does it talk about the DOJ being an enforcement arm of politics, and how Holder called himself a partner to Obama...HELLO!

I see people ALREADY trying to use flowery prose to transform this sow's ear presidency into some great achievement. You don't have to dislike the man to recognize that he did not preside at a time of particular improvement...Sure presidents get too much credit and too much blame...but instead of doing the predictable mitigating of blame, this crew of writers and talking heads sprints right past credibility, to praising the man for shit that is not "good", unless are Russia.
 

connor_in

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most of that is fair...and it doesn't even get into an assessment of foreign policy, Iran, Syria, and really the entirety of the middle east, nor does it touch any kind of military readiness concerns. Nor does it point to scandals and coverups (IRS). Nor does it talk about the DOJ being an enforcement arm of politics, and how Holder called himself a partner to Obama...HELLO!

I see people ALREADY trying to use flowery prose to transform this sow's ear presidency into some great achievement. You don't have to dislike the man to recognize that he did not preside at a time of particular improvement...Sure presidents get too much credit and too much blame...but instead of doing the predictable mitigating of blame, this crew of writers and talking heads sprints right past credibility, to praising the man for shit that is not "good", unless are Russia.

That's weird...I keep seeing interviews and articles telling me there weren't any scandals during President Obama's tenure.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.............. Please explain to me how President-elect Trump is in violation of the emoluments clause? And please explain to me why you didn't care that the Clinton Family Foundation received donations from numerous foreign leaders, a clear violation of the clause?

A) Do you know what the emoluments clause is.
B) The Clinton Family Foundation information that you refer to is - wait, you show me exactly where it is a violation of the emoluments clause This should be good!
C) Many people have looked over the Clinton foundation information, and you know what? No one has found a violation of the law. (Ethics aside, I personally think it all and the Clintons are smarmy.) But the fact is they have raised Billions for relief from famine, disaster, disease, and in particular HIV. They have kind of changed the world. Contrasting to Trump's foundation, which did nothing much for anyone, accept make questionable political contributions, and provide a tax dodge, in at least five cases allow him to spend donated dollars like they were his money, to benifit himself, and bribe a Florida ATTY General who was investigation Trump for prosecution.
D) blah, blah, blah? The more we get into this thing, the Trump Admin, the less I see that any Trump supporter has. Think of it, he hasn't even been sworn in, and you are reduced to petty third grade criticisms/insults. Trying to use social shame to quiet oposition only happens after intellectual discourse is exhausted. And that's all you've got!
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I don't have much of a disagreement with anything you posted other than the following : descent. The word "descent" means "moving downward", or "the origin or background of a person or family". An entirely different reference is used for opposing ideas and issues. Dissent, fine. There is at least a degree of intelligence to this. Descent and dissent are never used interchangeably.

:wink:

Thanks! I really botched that one!
 

phgreek

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That's weird...I keep seeing interviews and articles telling me there weren't any scandals during President Obama's tenure.

I guess "scandal" is limited to having your dick in an intern's mouth...and getting caught?

Aim low folks...
 
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Buster Bluth

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Ugh.

Here we go

On the national debt and national debt per citizen (sorta useless as it measures the same thing, no?):

If you're going to blame Obama for the debt, does he get praise for the deficit reduction? If so, he's reduced the deficit by a trillion dollars, more nominal dollars than any President in history (as shown). It's not exactly Obama's fault the recession required TARP, etc and smashed GDP/revenue and that he inherited two wars...

I don't know about you but I'll take 75+ straight months of private sector job growth, the longest run in history, with a few trillion in debt instead of the collapse of the international economy and a repeat of the Great Depression. Let's not forget that that could have actually happened.

BN-EX456_narrro_G_20141008143250.jpg


On the Labor Force Participation Rate: It has been falling for men since the 1950s, and only looks like it was doing well because women joined the workforce. Once women saturated the labor demand they joined the slow fall men have experienced for the last sixty years.

part%2Bmen%2Bwomen.jpg


On Home Ownership Rate: It started falling before Obama took office (when the bubble started to burst), and when given proper context really sorta looks like the rates of the 2000s (read: the fucking bubble) undid itself. It's also worth mentioning that Millennials are poorer than their parents, due to factors too large for the President to solve.

BN-JP173_homeow_G_20150728120359.jpg


On Median Household Income: Those numbers aren't correct. "The Census Bureau said on Tuesday that median household income surged 5.2 percent last year to $56,500, the highest since 2007, in large part due to solid employment gains. The jump was the biggest since record keeping began in 1968."

Still, it's worth remembering that we're still only as rich as we were in 1999 or so. That's the last time we had a gamechanging increase in productivity, a little thing called the internet. It's also not something the President has very much of an impact on.

On Health Insurance Rates: We can debate the pros/cons of Obamacare and hopefully find common ground too. And we can debate it's net impact too. But regardless the fact of the matter is that the rates have been skyrocketing for much longer than Obama has been President:

HealthPremiumsRiseChart.jpg


On Food Stamps: Well for one they don't cost that much and many economists argue they have a economic benefit. But regardless this fits with most of the other criticisms, a huge surge during the economic fallout and a slow decrease sense then. I think it is fair to say that the administration did have an effort to make people aware that they were eligible, which wasn't being done before. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

Food-Stamps-Presidents.png


And it's a weird criticism because food stamps generally go to elderly and children..

3-24-16fa-chartbook-f15.png


On Poverty Rate: They're not showing you the rate of poverty, just the total number. Of course the total goes up, so does the population. The rate has been pretty consistent for decades.

US-poverty-rate-600px.gif



Let's not let facts get in the way.

Yes, let's not let facts get in the way. His post is pretty much worthless propaganda. The President doesn't have much of an impact on what was even brought up, and context shows most of those issues aren't even Obama-era failures but reflective of much larger economic trends. So yeah let's not let facts get in the way.
 
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irishff1014

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I see the count is up to 60 dems that aren't going to attend Friday. I personally think that's crap. You were elected to this position even though your people didn't vote fro Trump. It should be mandatory to go. Like Lewis from GA only didn't go for Bush, won't go for Trump but went for Obama. I won't give my personal opinion of him. I dislike Obama and i am not afraid to voice that but if i was elected to a seat you bite your pride and show the F**k up.

This goes for both parties.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I'm speaking of the proven collusion between CNN and the DNC, to sway the Primary to Hillary Clinton. There's no doubt about intent there, because they discussed intent. I'm "bringing up something else" because your outrage rings hollow, considering that election meddling was no big deal to you when your team did it. It's only when the other team won, that suddenly election fixing was some big deal. There seems to be little doubt that Russia was involved, but to what extent? Did Russia piecemeal out the leaks to WikiLeaks, and WikiLeaks released them as they got them? Or did the Russians dump all of the emails on WikiLeaks, and WikiLeaks decided the timing of their release? And how many people already had their minds made up? Why did all of the polls on Election morning favor Hillary Clinton, if the Russians were so successful at influencing voters through WikiLeaks?

Seriously, what collusion are you talking about? Are you talking about Donna Brazil?

I think all those operatives from each party should be put out to pasture!


But here is the thing, if you are talking about that incident.

CNN has employed operatives from both parties for years, around campaign times. All the networks have. Basically, anyone who doesn't get a gig running a campaign, gets a check from a media source, think I jest?

Why? Because, their poor behavior, and or general smarminess, gets ratings! Most news organizations have become media ratings whores. Because parent companies are not willing to pay for independent, unbiased journalism, anymore.

This is no more than a logical outgrowth of one of the great neoliberal tenets. [Shit, I figured it out, I changed web browsers and lost my custom spell checker, this spell checker wanted to replace tenets with tenants! The bastards! My naive illusion is pierced. I will go back to spelling the old fashioned way . . . ]

Neoliberalism states clearly that any necessary reduction in overhead can be made by eliminating workforce. The more the better, in other words, workers are an often unnecessary expense and addition of workers equates to business inefficiencies.

Where in reality, what happens when businesses workforce's have been neoliberalised is, there is or becomes poor distinction between distinctly different job duties, and beyond a certain point, a quality work force cannot be found.

Examples :
My old stomping grounds, I know a couple still in the Info Sys biz, most have moved up to management, and they all bitch about how they have to spell everything out, and how little any of their employees can actually do, let alone think on their own, or even stand on their own two feet. My reply is always the same, you got what you pay for, didn't you? Back in the day we made low-six figures, by today's buying power, around 200k, annually. But we kept patched up kluged crap by today's standards running like a charm. Were their over expenditures for labor on just about every project? Yeah. But there was always workforce flexibility, and resources to throw at things as they came up.

Today you have kids making 25 grand a year, with four times the workload they should have. What's wrong with the picture? I wouldn't go back to an environment like that!

Bus drivers and transportation. My daughter participated on the high school varsity golf team this fall. About every third event lost it's scheduled bus transportation. So parents had to drop everything, change plans and get the kids and clubs somewhere with like fifteen minutes notification. Why? With levy requests failing and cutbacks mandated, the number one target for cost cutting was workforce, and the easiest target within that were the bus drivers. Long term effect : They don't have enough bus drivers to staff the regular routes, let alone have any subs, in case of illness or emergency! The rest you can figure. If you drop these people from a reasonable salary with benefits, to pay obtainable in the fast food industry, no one will take the job. They have had job fairs, hired uber-recruiters, etc. All to no avail.

Where does that apply to journalism? Journalist today are divided into two groups : those who get the ratings, and those who don't. Those who do, get the money, and a lot of control. Those who don't, get paid peanuts. In this whole circus, you have underpaid researchers, etc., true journalists who can't find any avenues of career advancement, and celebrities. All, the news organizations have gone with celebrity, causing additional strain on ever tightening budgets for workforce. Because less is better. Then the lines get blurred between factual reporting and opinion.

I don't think some posters here know the difference between fact and opinion. I would throw most that make the argument that both candidates are equally bad into this group, because inevitably, those who offer proof that Clinton is worse or as bad as Trump; or Trump is no worse that Clinton, quote from opinion based sources.

They really buy into the Trump mantra that fake news is bad, and fake news is everything that is anti-Trump.

So getting back to it, you have one candidate that was disingenuous and smarmy as hell (Clinton); one that was pathological in his need to promote fiction about himself, etc.,(Trump), and a media that can't or won't tell tell the truth about the situation.

I am serious when I say I would love to eliminate all political operatives, but that doesn't mean I am going to buy any of their continually touted lines of bull shit either.
 

Ndaccountant

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Here we go

On the national debt and national debt per citizen (sorta useless as it measures the same thing, no?):

No, it doesn't measure the same thing. As you pointed out below on some other metrics, one is a raw stat while the other takes into consideration population.


On the Labor Force Participation Rate: It has been falling for men since the 1950s, and only looks like it was doing well because women joined the workforce. Once women saturated the labor demand they joined the slow fall men have experienced for the last sixty years.

While it certainly peaked, the rate of decline for both men and women clearly accelerated. That cannot be ignored.


On Health Insurance Rates: We can debate the pros/cons of Obamacare and hopefully find common ground too. And we can debate it's net impact too. But regardless the fact of the matter is that the rates have been skyrocketing for much longer than Obama has been President:

“Every single good idea to bend the cost curve and start actually reducing health care costs [is] in this bill.” He didn't promise to keep the trend.

bg-obamacare-in-six-years-chart-2-825.ashx


Remember this claim from his candidacy?

Combining all of these effects – from improved health IT, better disease management,
reduced insurance overhead, reinsurance, and reduced uncompensated care -- under our
“best-guess” assumptions, we estimate that businesses will save $140 billion annually in
insurance premiums. The typical family will save $2500 per year

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/finalcostsmemo.pdf

Not sure about anyone else, but I sure as hell have not seen that savings.

Oh, and who can forget the non-partisan CBO repeated claims (as in, nearly half a dozen since 2015) that the ACA reduces growth.

CBO anticipates that several developments in federal fiscal policy under current law will affect the economy through their impact on the labor market. The most sizable effects stem from provisions of the Affordable Care Act (ACA). The ACA’s largest effect on the labor market—especially as overall employment conditions improve—will come from provisions of the act that raise effective marginal tax rates on earnings, thereby reducing how much some people choose to work. The health insurance subsidies that the Act provides through the expansion of Medicaid and the exchanges are phased out for people with higher income, creating an implicit tax on some people’s additional earnings. The act also directly imposes higher taxes on some people’s labor income. Because both effects on labor supply will grow over the next few years, CBO projects, they will subtract from economic growth over that period.
 
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kmoose

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A) Do you know what the emoluments clause is.

Yes.

Emoluments Clause of Article I, Section 9.* It prohibits any “Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under [the United States]” from accepting “any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.”* Only explicit congressional consent validates such exchanges

So Trump's companies might be involved with foreign governments, which might violate the letter, but not the spirit of the rule. The rule was designed to keep say, England, from conferring the title of a Knight to Teddy Roosevelt, in exchange for his favorable treatment of England while he is President. Normal business transactions may, or may not, violate the rule.

B) The Clinton Family Foundation information that you refer to is - wait, you show me exactly where it is a violation of the emoluments clause This should be good!

Have you been living under a rock the last 2 years? How about the Crown Prince of Bahrain, in essence being charged a large donation to the Clinton Foundation, in order to get a face to face meeting with the US Sec of State, Hillary Clinton? That doesn't count?

Emails: Huma Abedin Did Favors For Clinton Foundation Donors

C) Many people have looked over the Clinton foundation information, and you know what? No one has found a violation of the law. (Ethics aside, I personally think it all and the Clintons are smarmy.) But the fact is they have raised Billions for relief from famine, disaster, disease, and in particular HIV. They have kind of changed the world.

Keep in mind that, in addition to curing cancer, AIDS, and Vince Foster, HRC and her Foundation also (reportedly) paid for Chelsea Clinton's wedding. No personal profit there, right?

D) blah, blah, blah? The more we get into this thing, the Trump Admin, the less I see that any Trump supporter has. Think of it, he hasn't even been sworn in, and you are reduced to petty third grade criticisms/insults. Trying to use social shame to quiet oposition only happens after intellectual discourse is exhausted. And that's all you've got!

I'm not a Trump supporter. I'm a Presidency supporter who is tired of seeing people just hammer away at Presidents. I've "supported" President Obama, when I felt it was necessary, as well. I've also been critical of both Obama and Trump. I just refuse to buy into the hysteria and demand the tarring and feathering of either one. For someone who has been a pretty big dick to people, himself, in this thread; your complaint rings pretty hollow. I'm not trying to quiet opposition. I'm trying to have HONEST discourse.
 

pkt77242

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Curious as to why you wouldn't compare it, because both were going after the same intended results. Now if Russian hacking could have netted a worse or greater effect, I could see your point, but both the Russians and DNC were after the same results.

FTR.....I do not like Russia or any other country trying to influence our elections. Maybe if we quit trying to influence other countries elections we wouldn't have this problem? Global politics at its finest.

While they were after the same thing, the DNC broke no laws that I know of, and I agree that what they did is wrong (again reason number 3 million that the DNC and RNC need to go away and we need to change how we go about doing primaries/electing Presidents).
What the DNC did is despicable but not illegal. A foreign country dicking around in our election goes way beyond that in my opinoin (no matter who it would benefit, I would be just as outraged if they hacked Trump and released all his campaigns emails and the RNC's emails).

Is it coincidence that the only meddling that you appear to be outraged by, and want to highlight, is the meddling that worked AGAINST Hillary Clinton?

Read the above.

Also let go of your hate for Hilary. I am not as outraged by DNC meddling (though I think that it is shitty and reason number 3 million that the DNC/RNC need to go away) because it is fucking different when another country does it. Many US citizens/groups meddle (legally) in our elections. See Super PACs, Unions, etc. Name a law that the DNC broke (yes it was unethical and shitty and we should get rid of the DNC/RNC). A foreign government breaking the law (yes hacking is illegal) to try and influence our election should be a cause of outrage to all of us.

What the DNC did was shitty/unethical and we should get rid of the DNC/RNC as far as primary/presidential elections

What Russia did goes above and beyond that. To many people in this thread seem to be ok with it because it gave them their preferred outcome, which is sad to me.

ETA: sorry if this post rambled, trying to type and take care of a 3 week hold is hard.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Yes.



So Trump's companies might be involved with foreign governments, which might violate the letter, but not the spirit of the rule. The rule was designed to keep say, England, from conferring the title of a Knight to Teddy Roosevelt, in exchange for his favorable treatment of England while he is President. Normal business transactions may, or may not, violate the rule.



Have you been living under a rock the last 2 years? How about the Crown Prince of Bahrain, in essence being charged a large donation to the Clinton Foundation, in order to get a face to face meeting with the US Sec of State, Hillary Clinton? That doesn't count?

Emails: Huma Abedin Did Favors For Clinton Foundation Donors



Keep in mind that, in addition to curing cancer, AIDS, and Vince Foster, HRC and her Foundation also (reportedly) paid for Chelsea Clinton's wedding. No personal profit there, right?


I'm not a Trump supporter. I'm a Presidency supporter who is tired of seeing people just hammer away at Presidents. I've "supported" President Obama, when I felt it was necessary, as well. I've also been critical of both Obama and Trump. I just refuse to buy into the hysteria and demand the tarring and feathering of either one. For someone who has been a pretty big dick to people, himself, in this thread; your complaint rings pretty hollow. I'm not trying to quiet opposition. I'm trying to have HONEST discourse.

No, Moose, I really do love you, but with respect, you are a Trump supporter of the very worst kind. Regardless of what other kind of supporter you are. (Me, sometimes I am an athletic supporter!)

First you brought up Vince Foster. That is so far afield of any conversation about any legitimate political conversation. It started to become a hot button issue for the slanderers in the campaign, and I personally felt terrible, when one if his family issued a release asking people to get off their personal political hack agendas, and stop mentioning his suicide. It was a suicide. Period. At the time, his family to a person agreed with the findings. When I refer to 'barbarians in Christian clothing,' this kind of intentional action is near the epicenter. I will assume we can just drop this one.

Second, a number of high profile individuals who have had less that stellar images made big contributions to the Clinton Foundation. One of the hallmarks of the Clinton Foundation is their success at getting bad actors to make large donations to do good things. Which if you look at it, is how you change things in the world. Once everyone, including repressive regimes acknowledge the problem, and legitimize everyone working for the solution, how much better of a situation is that within the world community for eradicating the problem? Because after all, we are talking about people who live in abject poverty, sometimes miles from the richest mineral reserves in the world, who have been infected heterosexually by HIV, whose children are doomed to awful existence.

As far as the legality of the Clinton Foundation, the US Supreme Court, found in 2014, with a majority of Republican justices seated, in a case related to a political issue, and the Republican party, that providing access for cash isn't illegal, in fact, they wouldn't even call it unethical. Yet with the Clinton's, some of the same people positively affected by the very Supreme Court decision cried that the Clinton's were breaking the law. Why? What about that Clark?

And as far as your understanding of the emoluments rules : You cannot interpret them related to an individual if you have no clear idea of that individuals holdings, can you? Would you guess that DJT bragging about the favorable treatment Trump was going to get when he had his first conversation with the President of Argentina, when he first mentioned that he did some business asking for favorable interpretations of restrictions hamstringing his Trump Towers project! Later he and his reps changed their tune and said they only talked about times they worked together in the past.

Another time Donald Trump mentioned when talking about a Dubai connection that they threw 2 billion dollars worth of deals on the table, and later he denied that, kind of like Spicer's two step about Flynn's conversation with the Russians. None of these guys are with portfolio presently!
Did the Clinton Foundation pay for Chelsea’s wedding?
By Glenn Kessler January 4


“Clinton aide says Foundation paid for Chelsea’s wedding.”
–Fox News headline, Nov. 6, 2016


This column has been updated


The 2016 presidential election is over, but two readers separately sent The Fact Checker a query about a news report that apparently swayed some voters at the last minute.

“I was a Hillary Clinton supporter, but since the election have heard from several people who voted for Donald Trump that the final straw for them were the news reports that Hillary Clinton was taking money directly for her personal use out of the Clinton Foundation and that the foundation paid for Chelsea Clinton’s wedding and virtually financially supported her. I follow news very closely and was not aware of either of these specific charges. … I know the election is over, but I would love to know the real facts.”
“I recently visited friends in upstate NY and, as everywhere nowadays, the dinner conversation turned to the 2016 presidential election. Our upstate hosts and all but one of the upstate guests relayed ‘facts’ they had read about in the media that supported their decision not to vote for Hillary Clinton and to vote instead for Donald Trump. These Trump supporters were a lawyer and his girlfriend, a judge, and a CPA. They asserted that their support for Trump was buttressed by media reports they had read that the Clinton Foundation had paid for all or part of Chelsea Clinton’s wedding. What can you tell me and your readers about assertions that the Clinton Foundation paid for all or part of Chelsea Clinton’s wedding?”
Given the interest — and the possibility that votes were affected — this seemed like a worthy avenue for inquiry.

The Facts

This allegation first emerged in a tweet by WikiLeaks, which highlighted a 2012 email from a former Bill Clinton aide to Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta. “Chelsea Clinton used Clinton Foundation resources for her wedding,” the group tweeted the Sunday morning before election day.


WikiLeaks ✔ @wikileaks
Chelsea Clinton used Clinton Foundation resources for her wedding -- email from top Bill Clinton aid Doug Band https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/52046#efmABYACC
10:20 AM - 6 Nov 2016
16,156 16,156 Retweets 14,707 14,707 likes
Intelligence agencies have identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided WikiLeaks with thousands of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and others, including Podesta. WikiLeaks had been doling out leaks for weeks but presumably held on to this one for maximum impact just before Election Day.​

The only U.S. newspaper that reported the story was the New York Post, which ran this print-edition headline: “Bridal $weet for Chelsea; Foundation cash for nups.”

The first paragraph also stressed the cash angle: “Chelsea Clinton used her family foundation’s cash to pay for her wedding, living expenses and taxes on gifts of cash from her parents, according to a bombshell email made public Sunday.”

The story also was picked up by British tabloids, Fox News, Russian news agencies and various right-leaning websites. Fox headlined its story: “Clinton aide says Foundation paid for Chelsea’s wedding.”

But otherwise the story did not get mentioned on other networks or newspapers, except for reference to it by conservative columnist Hugh Hewitt on MSNBC.

Despite the breathless reporting, it’s hard to tell exactly what is going on in the email exchange, which is dated Jan. 4, 2012. There is no mention of actual Foundation monies being used for the wedding.

Doug Band, the former Clinton aide, first complains to Podesta that he had heard that Chelsea Clinton had told one of George W. Bush’s daughters that she was conducting an investigation of Clinton Foundation finances. “Not smart,” Band says.

Podesta replies, “You are perfecting your skills for understatement.”

“I learned from the best,” answers Band. Then he adds, ominously: “The investigation into her getting paid for campaigning, using foundation resources for her wedding and life for a decade, taxes on money from her parents….I hope you will speak to her and end this. Once we go down this road….”

So, without being specific, Band appears to be alleging Chelsea Clinton engaged in some inappropriate use of Clinton Foundation “resources” — whatever that is — for her 2010 wedding to Marc Mezvinsky. Clearly, there’s some bad blood between Chelsea Clinton and Band, who had left the foundation in 2011 to start his own company, Teneo Holdings. She had taken a stronger role in the foundation and expressed concerns over Teneo’s operations. In another email disclosed by WikiLeaks, Band called her a “spoiled brat kid.”

Band declined to comment on the wedding email, and Podesta did not respond to a request for comment.

[Update: An earlier version of this column said the Clinton Foundation was subject to Internal Revenue Service rules against self-dealing in the use of foundation resources. But the Clinton Foundation actually is not a private foundation but a public charity, and thus is covered by rules prohibiting inurement, an arcane word meaning “benefit.” One possible use of “resources” would be foundation employees volunteering at the wedding.

“Assuming that Clinton Foundation employees happened to volunteer at the wedding, and were not doing it on their time paid as a Clinton Foundation employee, there is no way it violates the inurement rule,” said Philip T. Hackney, associate law professor at LSU Law Center. “If on the other hand, of course, these employees were paid for that time by the Clinton Foundation, that would likely violate the provision.”

Hackney added that “from what I have been able to tell the Foundation is pretty darn well run on the whole and I would not expect to engage in such an egregious violation of basic rules regarding charities.”]


But no evidence has emerged that even volunteers were used, and the Clinton Foundation denied any resources at all were diverted to the Clinton wedding. “No Foundation funds or resources were used for the wedding,” said Brian Cookstra, a Foundation spokesman, even after we ran various scenarios past him, including use of personal staff and even volunteers.

“As was reported widely at the time, the Clintons hired a wedding planner,” Cookstra said. “The planning, management, and execution of the event was handled by him, which included managing vendors, venue, etc.”

Bryan Rafanelli, the wedding planner, said that when he read a news article alleging the foundation paid for Chelsea’s wedding, he thought, “Oh come on, that’s crazy.”

Rafanelli said that he dealt with five people on the wedding: Bill, Hillary and Chelsea Clinton, Mezvinsky and Dorothy Rodham, her grandmother. He said he arranged for the vendors, after providing options, and then planned it out “like a military operation.” He even booked the hotel rooms for guests. The only thing he did not provide was the guest list and the seating order of the guests.

“It’s one-stop shopping,” he said. “You pay Rafanelli. We pay everyone else.”

He noted that he had a staff of 25 people working on the Clinton wedding and the location — a Hudson River estate — was a secret to guests until four days before the wedding.

The cost of the wedding has never been revealed, but Rafanelli says figures in the media are exaggerated.

“The Clintons happily and proudly paid for the wedding,” said Angel Urena, a spokesman for the former president.

The Pinocchio Test

It’s important to remember that Band’s email was sent privately, with little expectation it would be aired publicly. On the one hand, that might indicate he would be more open about possible conflicts. But he was also feuding with Chelsea Clinton and so might have been inclined to exaggerate or embellish his concerns.

Even the email, at face value, does not justify the hyperbolic news coverage. There was no reference to foundation monies, just “resources.”


At the same time, the foundation, the family and the wedding planner deny the claim made in the email. This was a major social event with 450 guests, something that has to run on clockwork — at great cost. The wedding planner paid the bills and submitted one bill to the Clinton family.

We can’t really award Pinocchios here, since no specific person repeated this allegation. But we can fault the news reporting — and label this as a claim lacking any evidence. Readers (or their friends) who viewed this as the “last straw” about Clinton corruption need to be more careful consumers of the news.

No Evidence
And at the far end, so you think I am a dick? Welcome to a long and distinguished list! I am glad you think that, because, for as far back as I have posted in this thread, I have tried to wait until I, someone else, or a principle I believe in was unfairly attacked.

It is not only nice to be appreciated, but to know that I am having the effect I intended.
 

TDHeysus

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It is not only nice to be appreciated, but to know that I am having the effect I intended.

some ppl thrive on starting chaos, and societal strife. It shows in their personal lives, as well as the political organizations they associate themselves with. They see it as a badge of honor as a way to rationalize their delusions.
 

Wild Bill

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You are better than this.

Or maybe people don't understand.


Let me ask you, do you think it is any different for Republicans, or Republican candidates.

Because this was exactly what I was talking about. 98% of all news articles are shown to the subject or his representatives for their additional comments etc., before publication, and have been for most of the last century!

Now, I am not a journalist, but when I hear fifteen or twenty journalists including an acquaintance that won the 2004 Pulitzer Prize for Investigative Journalism, and was a 2016 Pulitzer finalist for Local Reporting, tell me that that is a way of locking down the facts, getting clarification(s) for accuracy, and often breaking the story bigger, depending on the reaction of the subject and their response.

I think you are an attorney; what is a potential litigant's chance in a libel suit when they had the story prior to release, to review?

But this is what I mean. There is the truth, and there is how it is spun.

Anyone who gets one side, just listens to one side, and forms a judgement based upon what they have heard gets what they are after, opinion from a string of facts, not the truth. Isn't that why jurisprudence is engineered to have two sides in opposition, to arrive at one true outcome?

If it's true that these journalists send similar emails to GOP candidates, why aren't they releasing those emails in an effort to defend their work/character? Their livelihood relies on public trust so I would assume they'd take drastic measures to unequivocally prove their lack of bias (at least in their work product).
 
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Bogtrotter07

Guest
Ugh.

Here we go

On the national debt and national debt per citizen (sorta useless as it measures the same thing, no?):

If you're going to blame Obama for the debt, does he get praise for the deficit reduction? If so, he's reduced the deficit by a trillion dollars, more nominal dollars than any President in history (as shown). It's not exactly Obama's fault the recession required TARP, etc and smashed GDP/revenue and that he inherited two wars...

I don't know about you but I'll take 75+ straight months of private sector job growth, the longest run in history, with a few trillion in debt instead of the collapse of the international economy and a repeat of the Great Depression. Let's not forget that that could have actually happened.

BN-EX456_narrro_G_20141008143250.jpg


On the Labor Force Participation Rate: It has been falling for men since the 1950s, and only looks like it was doing well because women joined the workforce. Once women saturated the labor demand they joined the slow fall men have experienced for the last sixty years.

part%2Bmen%2Bwomen.jpg


On Home Ownership Rate: It started falling before Obama took office (when the bubble started to burst), and when given proper context really sorta looks like the rates of the 2000s (read: the fucking bubble) undid itself. It's also worth mentioning that Millennials are poorer than their parents, due to factors too large for the President to solve.

BN-JP173_homeow_G_20150728120359.jpg


On Median Household Income: Those numbers aren't correct. "The Census Bureau said on Tuesday that median household income surged 5.2 percent last year to $56,500, the highest since 2007, in large part due to solid employment gains. The jump was the biggest since record keeping began in 1968."

Still, it's worth remembering that we're still only as rich as we were in 1999 or so. That's the last time we had a gamechanging increase in productivity, a little thing called the internet. It's also not something the President has very much of an impact on.

On Health Insurance Rates: We can debate the pros/cons of Obamacare and hopefully find common ground too. And we can debate it's net impact too. But regardless the fact of the matter is that the rates have been skyrocketing for much longer than Obama has been President:

HealthPremiumsRiseChart.jpg


On Food Stamps: Well for one they don't cost that much and many economists argue they have a economic benefit. But regardless this fits with most of the other criticisms, a huge surge during the economic fallout and a slow decrease sense then. I think it is fair to say that the administration did have an effort to make people aware that they were eligible, which wasn't being done before. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

Food-Stamps-Presidents.png


And it's a weird criticism because food stamps generally go to elderly and children..

3-24-16fa-chartbook-f15.png


On Poverty Rate: They're not showing you the rate of poverty, just the total number. Of course the total goes up, so does the population. The rate has been pretty consistent for decades.

US-poverty-rate-600px.gif





Yes, let's not let facts get in the way. His post is pretty much worthless propaganda. The President doesn't have much of an impact on what was even brought up, and context shows most of those issues aren't even Obama-era failures but reflective of much larger economic trends. So yeah let's not let facts get in the way.

I was thinking whether or not I would reply to your post. But I had to, because :

Your post is a perfect example of objective interpretation of facts, as opposed to opinion; and
It is becoming more and more clear to me that few if anyone really understands the ACA, and what it is.

Pardon me I won't use the hack term Obama Care. IF I used any nickname, it would be 'Romney Care,' right?

The fact that ACA is a lot more than just insurance is lost to those that want to defeat it, the Obama legacy, or anyone else.

I just participated in an interesting forum discussing the net result of the 'repeal and replace approach,' and how much it would cost day one.

It will be phenomenally interesting to see where the money comes from when programs that have relied on ACA for cost reductions, have to go back to providing these services without the advantages of ACA.

The situation to watch will be will an Administration with little professional government experience, and no experience on the part of those responsible for putting the budget together, be able to churn something out that makes any sense by January 27th, the current deadline. Or will that have to be extended, eroding into the first 100 days.

And at this forum it was interesting, too, the moment everyone became aware DJT has no replacement insurance plan 'for everybody, that is better, and cheaper than the ACA.'

So, the new administration, in its infinite wisdom has gone on record as saying they have a plan ready to put in place, when they don't even have a handle on the regular budget issue, understand the ramifications of all of these issues, all after Congress has yanked the rug out from under the ACA!

You will have about 25 million people with decent, funded insurance, without any insurance of any kind!

I guess this won't be a problem for anyone who thinks the deficit expenditures to avoid depression, for which we were clearly headed when he took over in '08, won't have a problem with this. They probably figure if we defund all their programs they will just starve to death, or go away, or something.

As opposed to the people that think the '08 recession was Clinton's fault; they will probably argue that that 25 million people really don't exist, and are actually made up as part of a vast liberal conspiracy.

By the way, does anybody actually know the percentage of people covered by the ACA that were actually affected by the incredible premium increases quoted in the campaign?
 
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Bogtrotter07

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some ppl thrive on starting chaos, and societal strife. It shows in their personal lives, as well as the political organizations they associate themselves with. They see it as a badge of honor as a way to rationalize their delusions.

I certainly can't argue with that!

While others only want to defend themselves from that said knee-jerk, mouth-breathing stupidity!
 
B

Buster Bluth

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No, it doesn't measure the same thing. As you pointed out below on some other metrics, one is a raw stat while the other takes into consideration population.

Fair point but in the context of "fuck Obama" I'm not sure it's relevant regardless.

While it certainly peaked, the rate of decline for both men and women clearly accelerated. That cannot be ignored.

That's certainly arguable but to my untrained eye the graph says to me "labor participation peaked in the late 1990s and the housing bubble was probably an illusion." I think most of these Obama problems are really 21st century problems and the graph fits my mindset there.

“Every single good idea to bend the cost curve and start actually reducing health care costs [is] in this bill.” He didn't promise to keep the trend.

bg-obamacare-in-six-years-chart-2-825.ashx


Remember this claim from his candidacy?

Does the graph on the right also show baby boomers retiring and qualifying for Medicare/Medicaid regardless of Obamacare? What am I missing?

And to state emphatically, I am not an absolute defender of Obamacare. I just want to point out that "see premiums are up under Obama!" is misleading because they were going up very fast beforehand too and at worst we'd be discussing the degree of damage done by Obamacare.

I don't think Obamacare designers figured they'd have to cope with a "jobless recovery" for Millennials who are also being weighed down by so much college debt, those factors are preventing them from buying health insurance at the rate forecasters thought. And I can't say one way of the other if various claims were made before or after the public/government option was removed, which would have has an effect for better or worse. Maybe I'm wrong though.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/finalcostsmemo.pdf

Not sure about anyone else, but I sure as hell have not seen that savings.

Oh, and who can forget the non-partisan CBO repeated claims (as in, nearly half a dozen since 2015) that the ACA reduces growth.

Yeah but if Obamacare didn't take effect until 2014 that's not really a great way to judge the half-decade of economic results beforehand, and we had the best year in 40 years in 2015 in terms of wage growth, which is after Obamacare implementation. Shouldn't those results be flipped if the CBO was right?
 
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