Theology

[zelezo vlk]

Yes, I have a thing where I can't take half-ass Catholics mocking Southern Evangelicals, pretending that it is rooted in religion rather than their cultural disdain for the South and sometimes politics. It's too much when they are like, "Uhhh... doesn't he know that ND is the MOST Christian place." Sure, there is an argument for it, but it's worthwhile asking why so many don't see it that way at all.

Oh sorry I was just replying the Paul thing because there was a discussion about when Christianity made it into Europe.

 

[RDU Irish]

To me the biggest difference is being saved by grace, through faith, and not by works. That and not having to have an intermediary to talk to God, as previously said. Catholocism and evangelical Christianity look A LOT different. And that could matter to some born again recruits. That being said, I imagine the people and values at ND show live the Christian walk more than the people at almost all universities, including Clemson.

Yeah - good works are total bunk. Doing something bad is A-OK if you have Jesus in your heart but if you do something good it doesn't count if you're motivation is salvation? Difference between Catholics and Baptists is the Catholics say hi when they run in to each other in the liquor store.

 

[CoachB]

I could be wrong
But I thought Peter brought Catholicism to Europe?
Or does Rome not count?

Paul was considered the great Apostle to the gentiles, but Peter died in Rome. I don't know the time line too well, but theChurch was already in Europe by the mid-first century, 150 years or so before Constantine.

True. Rome really is Europe. Mea Culpa. I was thinking Northern Europe.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Yeah - good works are total bunk. Doing something bad is A-OK if you have Jesus in your heart but if you do something good it doesn't count if you're motivation is salvation? Difference between Catholics and Baptists is the Catholics say hi when they run in to each other in the liquor store.

Right, but Catholics aren't saved by lack of hypocrisy any more than Protestants are saved by faith alone. Everyone is saved gratuitously through God's grace, but its a gift that has to be accepted and carried out through faith and love.

Matthew's Gospel says:

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.​

​

For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.​

Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.​

"You have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.'​

​

But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.​

So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,​

leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.​

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;​

truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.​

​

"You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.'​

But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.​

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.​

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.​

​

 

[CoachB]

James 2:20 Context
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Protestant evangelicals don't just claim to be saved and forgiven and then it is game, set, match. You need both. If you have faith, and are saved, you will live that through works because you love Jesus. It is just the fruits you will have because the Holy Spirit is in you.

 

[Domina Nostra]

James 2:20 Context
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Protestant evangelicals don't just claim to be saved and forgiven and then it is game, set, match. You need both. If you have faith, and are saved, you will live that through works because you love Jesus. It is just the fruits you will have because the Holy Spirit is in you.

Yes!

John's Gospel:​

Jesus, says "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. . . . And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."​

​

John's 1 Epistle:​

St. John says, "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."​

Protestants get too caught up in worrying about their deep, dark motivations, and need to just relax and obey. But truth be told, most of them know this instinctually and do try to live the right way (better than many, many Catholics!).

 

[RDU Irish]

I find it ironic we face endemic Godlessness in our society yet people with the same guy on the wall.....

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Theres a hell of a lot of people, especially in the south and southern adjacent, that don't count Catholicism as Christianity.

Weird I know... but facts.

It's mostly a semantics thing. The independent church movement/ evangelical Christianity is basically Baptist-lite, though many of them don't even consider themselves "Protestant" and couldn't tell you the first thing about Martin Luther. They call themselves "Christian", so when a Catholic says, "Hey, I'm Christian, too," many will object because that's what they've labeled their sect, usually not because they have a coherent definition of Christian that includes certain denominations and excludes Catholics.

It's like when Catholics get grumpy over Anglicans calling themselves Anglo-Catholics. With a lower case "c", catholic just means "universal" (which the Anglican Church is not), and with an upper-case "C", it indicates a church that is in communion with Rome (which also doesn't apply to Anglicans). But it wouldn't be accurate to say that Anglicans aren't Christians.

Waiting on @Whiskeyjack patiently

Popcorn gif

James 2:20 Context
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Protestant evangelicals don't just claim to be saved and forgiven and then it is game, set, match. You need both. If you have faith, and are saved, you will live that through works because you love Jesus. It is just the fruits you will have because the Holy Spirit is in you.

You literally just described the Church's perennial teaching on justification. Since the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, this "dispute", which was supposedly at the heart of the Reformation, officially isn't even a thing anymore.

 

[ACamp1900]

Haha! please explain?

My wife and I are protestant but very respectful of each of our family's Catholic backgrounds, we would never and expect the same in return so long as Christ is at the center of it all. She has a brother however that also left the Catholic church who is now a Baptist minister and good freakin lord.... He and his wife vs my wife's sister and parents.... every. damn. time.

 

[BabyIrish]

At no point has the Catholic Church ever officially taught that you are saved by works. It has always talked about salvation being a gift of God through Jesus Christ. How you receive that gift is the difference between Christian religions.

 

[bobbyok1]

I find it ironic we face endemic Godlessness in our society yet people with the same guy on the wall.....

On the surface is does seem ironic . . . And yet, there are significant differences in "Christian" groups. The issue comes in large part due to various understandings of the way in which one is a Christian, or to put it another way, "how do we live the Kingdom life with God which Jesus proclaimed was available to all who would come?"

It is not as if this is an uncommon thing in human history. The Jewish/Israelite people are a great example of how one can have the "right God" and wrong approach. After all, Jesus Himself pointed to the wrongness of the approach of certain Israelites to living a life of faith in the God of the Hebrews, the One He called Father. (see His strong rebukes of certain Pharisees and other religious leaders. See also the entire Old Testament/Hebrew Bible dialogue of the prophets to the Israelites).

So, it may be a little naive to assume just because "Christians" of various backgrounds have "the same guy on the wall" that we should all get along or that we even should be operating in "unity" with no correction or pushback to one another. In fact, I would argue scripture affirms the notion of pushback/correction within the Church (see Jesus and the Apostles).

To your point, what we could do better is prayerfully & thoughtfully find ways to increase the dialogue between various Christians groups and enter into Biblically guided conversations. Instead of acting in ways that oppose the Kingdom by name calling, mud slinging, condemning, etc.

 

[stlnd01]

Yes, I have a thing where I can't take half-ass Catholics mocking Southern Evangelicals, pretending that it is rooted in religion rather than their cultural disdain for the South and sometimes politics. It's too much when they are like, "Uhhh... doesn't he know that ND is the MOST Christian place." Sure, there is an argument for it, but it's worthwhile asking why so many don't see it that way at all.

As one of the protagonists of this detour from back in Hanafin’s thread, (and personally as a not-especially-devout liberal Irish Catholic with experience in the world of elite Boston-area private schools), I just wanted to chime in and say you’re absolutely right about the cultural divides and misunderstandings here, and about how, to a lot of people “Catholic” and “Christian” are not the same thing at all, but also - my original point - that the version of Christianity that Dabo wears on his his sleeve does not tend to resonate as much with people who live in the world that Hanafin appears to inhabit.
But the old saw about judging books by covers is also true. So who knows.

All that said I think Clemson’s a bigger threat for him then Bama. And with that I will return to the football threads.

 

[Domina Nostra]

As one of the protagonists of this detour from back in Hanafin’s thread, (and personally as a not-especially-devout liberal Irish Catholic with experience in the world of elite Boston-area private schools), I just wanted to chime in and say you’re absolutely right about the cultural divides and misunderstandings here, and about how, to a lot of people “Catholic” and “Christian” are not the same thing at all, but also - my original point - that the version of Christianity that Dabo wears on his his sleeve does not tend to resonate as much with people who live in the world that Hanafin appears to inhabit.
But the old saw about judging books by covers is also true. So who knows.

All that said I think Clemson’s a bigger threat for him then Bama. And with that I will return to the football threads.

Yeah, the most surprising part of the whole story is that their is an Evangelical at that school.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I find it ironic we face endemic Godlessness in our society yet people with the same guy on the wall.....

It's because they look at the other person and they aren't sure that they really have the same God.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think if the Catholic Church would allow itself to modernize just a bit, it would be more attractive to those in my generation. What good is attending church if you aren’t able to make a connection to the pastor/priest, message/homily, or the scripture?

Gonna try to be charitable here, but this is the wrongest thing I have read online in a long time. Since the '70s, the US Catholic Church has been trying to LARP as Protestant, and it's been an unmitigated disaster. It's a huge mistake to try to out-Prot the Prots. No priest worth his salt will ever be as hip as Pastor Jim in his skinny jeans (and thank God for that), no Director of Music Ministry *shudder* will ever produce music that gives you the warm fuzzies like Hillsong, etc.

Catholics have liturgy. Good liturgy turns you outside of yourself and orients you toward the transcendent. Bad liturgy seeks to provide an immanent experience, turning you inward and asking, "How is this making me feel?"

Evangelicals don't have priests or sacraments. It's just a glorified bible study each Sunday, which requires that they out-compete the church planted in the strip mall two miles over by providing a more entertaining, emotionally-fulfilling experience, by "doing community" better, etc. And to be fair, many evangelicals are excellent at these things! But those things aren't very relevant to Christianity per se.

Getting back to what kicked this all off: ND is a microcosm of the American Church, and most everything good and bad you can find on campus in concentrated doses. If this is what Ronan is looking for:



Then he can find something like it at ND! But Dabo and NewSpring Church are surely better at it. ND is better on virtually every other metric, but that's not really who we are.

 

[Domina Nostra]

It's mostly a semantics thing. The independent church movement/ evangelical Christianity is basically Baptist-lite, though many of them don't even consider themselves "Protestant" and couldn't tell you the first thing about Martin Luther. They call themselves "Christian", so when a Catholic says, "Hey, I'm Christian, too," many will object because that's what they've labeled their sect, usually not because they have a coherent definition of Christian that includes certain denominations and excludes Catholics.

It's like when Catholics get grumpy over Anglicans calling themselves Anglo-Catholics. With a lower case "c", catholic just means "universal" (which the Anglican Church is not), and with an upper-case "C", it indicates a church that is in communion with Rome (which also doesn't apply to Anglicans). But it wouldn't be accurate to say that Anglicans aren't Christians.

You literally just described the Church's perennial teaching on justification. Since the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, this "dispute", which was supposedly at the heart of the Reformation, officially isn't even a thing anymore.

I agree with the first part up until you say:

"They call themselves "Christian", so when a Catholic says, "Hey, I'm Christian, too," many will object because that's what they've labeled their sect, usually not because they have a coherent definition of Christian that includes certain denominations and excludes Catholics."

In my experience, they see the denominational difference as being non-essential, but see a "Bible-based" faith as the key component. You are supposed to be constantly seeking "in the Word." They definitely see Catholics as Christians who have added a bunch of non-essentials as well as some serious problematic doctrines to the Biblical faith. And those lead Catholics in the wrong direction.

In other words, it is not "faith alone" but "scripture alone" that defines the Evangelicals--as problematic as that position is.

As for the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, that's a big oversimplification. I think Church history makes pretty clear that you can't publish all kinds of things that can be interpreted in different ways and then declare them to be true. That is why the Councils used canons and anathemas. The devil is always in the details. For example, see this article in First Things: A Betrayal of the Gospel: The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification | Paul T. McCain

 

[CoachB]

Gonna try to be charitable here, but this is the wrongest thing I have read online in a long time. Since the '70s, the US Catholic Church has been trying to LARP as Protestant, and it's been an unmitigated disaster. It's a huge mistake to try to out-Prot the Prots. No priest worth his salt will ever be as hip as Pastor Jim in his skinny jeans (and thank God for that), no Director of Music Ministry *shudder* will ever produce music that gives you the warm fuzzies like Hillsong, etc.

Catholics have liturgy. Good liturgy turns you outside of yourself and orients you toward the transcendent. Bad liturgy seeks to provide an immanent experience, turning you inward and asking, "How is this making me feel?"

Evangelicals don't have priests or sacraments. It's just a glorified bible study each Sunday, which requires that they out-compete the church planted in the strip mall two miles over by providing a more entertaining, emotionally-fulfilling experience, by "doing community" better, etc. And to be fair, many evangelicals are excellent at these things! But those things aren't very relevant to Christianity per se.

Getting back to what kicked this all off: ND is a microcosm of the American Church, and most everything good and bad you can find on campus in concentrated doses. If this is what Ronan is looking for:



Then he can find something like it at ND! But Dabo and NewSpring Church are surely better at it. ND is better on virtually every other metric, but that's not really who we are.

It's just a glorified bible study each Sunday, which requires that they out-compete the church planted in the strip mall two miles over by providing a more entertaining, emotionally-fulfilling experience, by "doing community" better, etc. And to be fair, many evangelicals are excellent at these things! But those things aren't very relevant to Christianity per se.

I agree up until this. We are in a very conservative Baptist Church that only has piano and the Word. To categorize all born again believers like you did is not accurate. That being said, huge fan of your posts in general.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

In my experience, they see the denominational difference as being non-essential, but see a "Bible-based" faith as the key component. You are supposed to be constantly seeking "in the Word." They definitely see Catholics as Christians who have added a bunch of non-essentials as well as some serious problematic doctrines to the Biblical faith. And those lead Catholics in the wrong direction.

In other words, it is not "faith alone" but "scripture alone" that defines the Evangelicals--as problematic as that position is.

That was definitely the norm in the past, but I think you'd be surprised at how few evangelicals today would describe themselves as Protestant, or could even articulate what it is they dislike about Catholicism. That's probably a good thing, as it'll be easier for God to gather us all back together someday as the rough edges of the Reformation continue to get worn off by time. My point was not to argue that there's no difference anymore, but that most evangelicals seem to be losing grasp of what their forebears were even protesting in the first place.

And of course: Jesus didn't write a book, but founded a Church; "sola scriptura" appears nowhere in the Bible; the Church preceded the canon; the Church itself decided what was canonical, etc.

As for the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, that's a big oversimplification. I think Church history makes pretty clear that you can't publish all kinds of things that can be interpreted in different ways and then declare them to be true. That is why the Councils used canons and anathemas. The devil is always in the details. For example, see this article in First Things: A Betrayal of the Gospel: The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification | Paul T. McCain

You can certainly pick nits on it, but the whole "Faith v. Works" dispute is casually cited as the most important doctrinal issue in the Reformation. So it's significant that the Vatican and some prominent strains of Protestant authority agreed that there's not really any disagreement there after all. There are of course enduring differences; unity is important for maintaining doctrinal orthodoxy, and schism is constantly breaking Protestantism into ever smaller and more diverse sects. But which principles of Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, Melanchthon or Wesley are still guiding the movement today? You can find some if you sift hard enough, but I don't see a coherent alternative to Catholicism that will be peeling off a significant number of converts hundreds of years from now.

I agree up until this. We are in a very conservative Baptist Church that only has piano and the Word. To categorize all born again believers like you did is not accurate. That being said, huge fan of your posts in general.

What I described is 95% of evangelical churches in Arizona. There aren't many old school Protestant churches out here that are still drawing significant crowds. So I guess I'm describing what seems to be the future of evangelical Protestantism rather than everything that existing presently.

 

[Domina Nostra]

That was definitely the norm in the past, but I think you'd be surprised at how few evangelicals today would describe themselves as Protestant, or could even articulate what it is they dislike about Catholicism. That's probably a good thing, as it'll be easier for God to gather us all back together someday as the rough edges of the Reformation continue to get worn off by time. My point was not to argue that there's no difference anymore, but that most evangelicals seem to be losing grasp of what their forebears were even protesting in the first place.

And of course: Jesus didn't write a book, but founded a Church; "sola scriptura" appears nowhere in the Bible; the Church preceded the canon; the Church itself decided what was canonical, etc.

You can certainly pick nits on it, but the whole "Faith v. Works" dispute is casually cited as the most important doctrinal issue in the Reformation. So it's significant that the Vatican and some prominent strains of Protestant authority agreed that there's not really any disagreement there after all. There are of course enduring differences; unity is important for maintaining doctrinal orthodoxy, and schism is constantly breaking Protestantism into ever smaller and more diverse sects. But which principles of Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, Melanchthon or Wesley are still guiding the movement today? You can find some if you sift hard enough, but I don't see a coherent alternative to Catholicism that will be peeling off a significant number of converts hundreds of years from now.

What I described is 95% of evangelical churches in Arizona. There aren't many old school Protestant churches out here that are still drawing significant crowds. So I guess I'm describing what seems to be the future of evangelical Protestantism rather than everything that existing presently.

I completely agree that a lot of Protestants don't call themselves Protestant and an even larger segment doesn't really know what that means. But I think Southern Evangelicals still have a good sense that Catholics, worship Mary, don't know the Bible, think you go to heaven if you are a "good person," etc., etc. That may not be the case in the rest of the country.

I think my point regarding the significance that "the Vatican and some prominent strains of Protestant authority agreed that there's not really any disagreement there after all," is pretty similar to your take on modern Evangelicals: "My point is that [Catholic theologians] seem to be losing grasp of what their forebears were even protesting in the first place." I think Vatican theology experts are not overly interested in the minutia of these issues, but are super-interested in ecumenicism, creating a ton of room for sloppiness.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think Vatican theology experts are not overly interested in the minutia of these issues, but are super-interested in ecumenicism, creating a ton of room for sloppiness.

As an aside, I've started doing some canon law work which has led to interactions with Rome on several cases. And Belloc's famous quote has never struck me as more true:

The Catholic Church is an institution I am bound to hold divine – but for unbelievers a proof of its divinity might be found in the fact that no merely human institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight.

 

[Rack Em]

As an aside, I've started doing some canon law work which has led to interactions with Rome on several cases. And Belloc's famous quote has never struck me as more true:

 

[Domina Nostra]

AMEN!

As an aside, I've started doing some canon law work which has led to interactions with Rome on several cases. And Belloc's famous quote has never struck me as more true:

He was a wise man.

When I was younger, and I was more impressed with accolades and credentials, I was very impressed with the mid-20th Century theology crowd. Now I don't know what to do with them. For example, Ratzinger's acknowledgement of de Chardin's heretical views, but his "nevertheless" use of his evolutionary theory, reminds me of this line from the Royal Tennebaums:

"Well, everyone knows Custer died at Little Bighorn. What this book presupposes is... maybe he didn't."

(And the book he is reading reminds me of Von Balthasar)

 

[Whiskeyjack]

View attachment 3050840

Wasn't bragging! It's been a surreal experience. It simultaneously confirmed that: (1) things are worse than you think; and (2) the Holy Spirit is definitely protecting the Church. Because we'd be toast if it was just up to our clergy.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Haha! I took a canon law class in la

Wasn't bragging! It's been a surreal experience. It simultaneously confirmed that: (1) things are worse than you think; and (2) the Holy Spirit is definitely protecting the Church. Because we'd be toast if it was just up to our clergy.

We are on the same page.

 

[NorthDakota]

Seeing on Twitter that Pope Francis may be stepping down soon. If true, hope he enjoys his retirement. If not, keep it up!

 

[NorthDakota]

That was definitely the norm in the past, but I think you'd be surprised at how few evangelicals today would describe themselves as Protestant, or could even articulate what it is they dislike about Catholicism. That's probably a good thing, as it'll be easier for God to gather us all back together someday as the rough edges of the Reformation continue to get worn off by time. My point was not to argue that there's no difference anymore, but that most evangelicals seem to be losing grasp of what their forebears were even protesting in the first place.

And of course: Jesus didn't write a book, but founded a Church; "sola scriptura" appears nowhere in the Bible; the Church preceded the canon; the Church itself decided what was canonical, etc.

You can certainly pick nits on it, but the whole "Faith v. Works" dispute is casually cited as the most important doctrinal issue in the Reformation. So it's significant that the Vatican and some prominent strains of Protestant authority agreed that there's not really any disagreement there after all. There are of course enduring differences; unity is important for maintaining doctrinal orthodoxy, and schism is constantly breaking Protestantism into ever smaller and more diverse sects. But which principles of Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, Melanchthon or Wesley are still guiding the movement today? You can find some if you sift hard enough, but I don't see a coherent alternative to Catholicism that will be peeling off a significant number of converts hundreds of years from now.

What I described is 95% of evangelical churches in Arizona. There aren't many old school Protestant churches out here that are still drawing significant crowds. So I guess I'm describing what seems to be the future of evangelical Protestantism rather than everything that existing presently.

In North Dakota, seems similar. The Protestants we have dont seem to be very active. I think the Lutheran Church in particular has had issues with their own in-fighting.

The friends of mine who attend church weekly/regularly are either Catholic or have started going to evangelical services. I know a grand total of ONE active young Lutheran and he is a pastor. Pretty bizarre in a state that is about 60% Lutheran.

 

[Irish#1]

Always felt it kind of ironic on how the different religions viewed the others as not on equal terms, less devout, etc., yet they all believe in God. It's like "My religion is better, so God looks at me more favorably than he does you."

 

[Rack Em]

Seeing on Twitter that Pope Francis may be stepping down soon. If true, hope he enjoys his retirement. If not, keep it up!

Well he just did the Church equivalent of packing the Court, so it doesn’t really matter if he steps down or not because we’re going to get another secular EcUmEnIcAl pope after this.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Always felt it kind of ironic on how the different religions viewed the others as not on equal terms, less devout, etc., yet they all believe in God. It's like "My religion is better, so God looks at me more favorably than he does you."

To me, this is like saying it is ironic that politicians fight about the best bison for society because in the end because they all believe in government.

All religions don’t all believe in God, and they have very different answers to life’s most basic questions.

 

[Irish du Nord]

Well he just did the Church equivalent of packing the Court, so it doesn’t really matter if he steps down or not because we’re going to get another secular EcUmEnIcAl pope after this.

I don't understand where the disdain of ecumenism is coming from here. Ut Unum Sint essentially laid out the playbook for the next 30 years of Catholic ecumenism. And it's been fairly successful while not being at the expense of the Church's own integrity.