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Buster Bluth

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What's interesting to me though is our limited understanding of our physical (not to mention metaphysical) universe. Is the lack of evidence a condition of an absence of the divine? Or is it a condition of our limited comprehension?

Agreed. Physics and chemistry, for me, are two of the least god-disproving realities out there. If anything, I cling to the idea that something had to create these atoms/waves/etc when I'm feeling religious. At the end of the day, atheists don't have a better understanding or explanation for the concept of eternity and where the universe(s) came from. They would say the burden of proof is on the religion though, so it ends there for them. But yeah, they put their faith in the eternal existence of our physical universe.

I personally am not one to look to science for atheistic ammunition. Well maybe biology. Certainly not physics.
 
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Bishop2b5

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Gotcha, my bad (and H/T to GoIrish41).



What's interesting to me though is our limited understanding of our physical (not to mention metaphysical) universe. Is the lack of evidence a condition of an absence of the divine? Or is it a condition of our limited comprehension?

Thanks, Lax. My apologies if my analogy came across as flippant or as comparing a belief in Santa to a belief in God... absolutely not my intention. I genuinely enjoy the discussion and have enormous respect for you, Whiskey and the others who bring a reasonable, intelligent, and well-considered perspective to the table, and I have no doubt you're passionate about your views and beliefs. I do my best to be reasonable and civil, and be respectful of others' views and not insult anyone's position, but I'm sure I occasionally screw the pooch in that regard, so accept my apologies in advance.

As for your questions, man I don't know. Certainly excellent questions that we need to think about and try to answer to the best of our ability, but heady stuff there that I don't think anyone truly knows for sure. It's not just what we don't know, but what we don't yet even know that we don't know.
 
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Cackalacky

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I think Hitchens' anti-theism is that he hoped god doesn't exist. He was totally against the idea of there being a god and/or that god's existence would be a good thing. He thought a supreme creator creating people to worship him was totalitarian and evil.

Anti theism has been around a while as a term but Hitch and Daniel Dennett were my first exposure to the concept. Hitch most certainly believed on many grounds that all religions were based on the same "untruth" , is harmful and destructive, totalitarian and is ultimately incompatible with a rational society.
 

BleedBlueGold

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My beef with religion can be summed up in one example:

Indiana passing the Religious Freedom Bill.

Discrimination is wrong. And hypocrisy is a pet peeve of mine. I truly believe it is un-Christian to judge someone simply because they do not follow or practice your personal beliefs. It is arrogant. It is ignorant. It is prejudice. It is, in some cases, evil.

I personally feel that separation of church and state have been violated here. What makes this country great are things like the freedom to practice any religion. But it also protects ALL religions. And for lawmakers to force-feed an entire state their own personal beliefs in the form of laws and bills is downright unconstitutional.

It makes me sad. This is 2015. A little more tolerance can do everyone some good.
 

Corry

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My beef with religion can be summed up in one example:

Indiana passing the Religious Freedom Bill.

Discrimination is wrong. And hypocrisy is a pet peeve of mine. I truly believe it is un-Christian to judge someone simply because they do not follow or practice your personal beliefs. It is arrogant. It is ignorant. It is prejudice. It is, in some cases, evil.

I personally feel that separation of church and state have been violated here. What makes this country great are things like the freedom to practice any religion. But it also protects ALL religions. And for lawmakers to force-feed an entire state their own personal beliefs in the form of laws and bills is downright unconstitutional.

It makes me sad. This is 2015. A little more tolerance can do everyone some good.


Mark Emmert agrees

“The NCAA national office and our members are deeply committed to providing an inclusive environment for all our events,” NCAA president Mark Emmert said in a statement. ”We are especially concerned about how this legislation could affect our student-athletes and employees.”

While not threatening to move the location for the Final Four games, Emmert said the NCAA will “work diligently” to ensure that all attendees are not “impacted negatively by this bill.”

“Moving forward, we intend to closely examine the implications of this bill and how it might affect future events as well as our workforce,” Emmert added.

NCAA Concerned About New ‘Religious Freedom’ Law in Indiana | Mediaite
 
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Buster Bluth

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Good for Emmert. I hope they leave Indianapolis and head to Columbus, and the Big Ten too.

Such a ridiculous law should mandate that you must post signage indicating that you refuse service to gays, so the public can tell you the bigots among them are.
 

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BleedBlueGold

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I know this is the theology thread and not politics, but I feel this topic goes hand-in-hand.

I have recently read that this bill (or a form of) was upheld in 30 other states. I also read that it's not a "freedom to discriminate bill" like everyone is suggesting. However, I find it odd that the masses are all saying it is. Can someone clarify this? Was there an outcry like this when the other states passed it?

IF this bill is exactly what the lawmakers claim it is (and not a discrimination bill) then they need to change the perception of this asap. Indiana is on the verge of losing millions of dollars annually because of this. Like mentioned above, the NCAA and GenCon are already investigating. What if the NFL decides to pull the combine, or refuses to have another Super Bowl in Indy? What if CEOs from national companies refuse to do business with Indiana? Tourism will drop. Etc. Perception is reality, and at the moment, the perception is that this bill is solely a way for people to use their religion as a cop out when discriminating against others.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I would add to your list (or perhaps it's just a more detailed version of your 4th item) "I find absolutely no credible evidence for the existence of God, but I do find compelling evidence that there's no need of any deity or supernatural forces to explain the existence or workings of the universe as we know it."

I would say that fits neatly under the 4th item.

For myself, I'm an atheist for exactly the same reasons that I don't believe in Santa Claus: there is no credible evidence whatsoever for Santa, his existence doesn't stand up to any critical examination of the reasons given for believing in him, and all the things attributed to him are MUCH better and more believably accounted for by rational explanations.

Since you're comfortable asserting such things categorically, it's very unlikely that you've seriously engaged with any of the best arguments for His existence.

Your comment about the atheist who says he knows there's no God (and therefore no Truth, Beauty, Goodness, Justice, etc.) is baffling and somewhat alarming to me to realize how wrong one side's understanding is of the other.

For the sake of clarification, I assume self-professing "atheists" are materialists/ naturalists, who believe that reality consists of only that which is empirically observable. I've met some people who describe themselves as "atheists", but whose beliefs are closer to deism. The comment you quoted only applies to the former.

That seems to be a very common belief amongst Christians: that atheism = amorality or that without God the atheist has no morals, no values, no ethics, no sense of goodness, beauty, justice, or right & wrong, and no way to know, discover, or determine any of those things.

I never said any such thing. Materialism/ naturalism precludes the possibility that the Good, True and Beautiful have any objective reality to them; so when humans speak of such things, we're basically just referring to illusions created by chemical reactions in the human brain.

To the contrary, it's painfully obvious that atheists not only can, but do frequently act in morally consistent ways. Which gets to the irrationality of evangelical atheism; because according to their own stated first principles, there's no reason for them to do so. At least not in ways that can't be explained away by specious arguments based on sociocultural evolution (i.e. the "Herd Instinct"). In other words, theists believe in objective moral Truth which is binding on them even when no one is looking. For an atheist to always act morally, which is frequently to his own material detriment, even when no one is looking, is irrational on his own terms.

There are millions of people around the world who have little or no knowledge of God & Christianity (and millions more in the distant past such as the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, and Chinese, or pre-European-contact Native Americans, Africans, Aborigines, etc., etc.) who never had any inkling of such, yet those people certainly had values, an appreciation for art and beauty, knew right from wrong, had a system of morals and ethics, had laws and understood justice, and all the rest.

Which strongly implies the objective existence of the Good, True and Beautiful, which disparate cultures all over the world have discovered (to varying degrees) throughout human history.

I've actually found that I'm much more moral, ethical, and have a stronger sense of values and right & wrong as an atheist (and that's not a shot at or criticism of religion). It's because instead of following certain moral or ethical guidelines because someone told me I had to, or because I feared the punishment from not doing so, I do those things now because I understand why they're important and necessary in order to live in a decent, workable society and be able to interact in a positive way with the people around me.

Now who's making uncharitable assumptions about the other? This is absolutely a shot at religious people. You're implying that theists act morally only because a holy book tells them to, or because they fear being punished by a magical sky fairy, whereas only enlightened (and probably fedora-clad) rationalists are capable of acting in a truly altruistic manner.

Newsflash: the liberal values that are "important and necessary... to live in a decent, workable society" are indelibly Christian. Human rights, social democracy, welfare for the poor, religious freedom, etc. are all inconceivable outside of the Christian tradition. For the past 2,000 years, Christianity hasn't been just the foundation of western civilization, but its walls, roof, windows and doors. In fact, Pope Benedict has argued persuasively that atheism itself is an epiphenomenon of Christianity, because the importance of tolerance and free will in Christianity creates the space for such beliefs to exist.

Which is why evangelical atheists are so supremely annoying. They seek to destroy the very institution that created the space for their dissent in the first place. And more importantly, when you ask them what their ideal society looks like, it has virtually no resemblance to any actual pagan society in human history. What they're really advocating for is Christendom without Christ.

It's much like the following example: when I was a kid I made my bed, cleaned my room, did homework, went to school, took out trash, did laundry, went to bed and got up at a reasonable time, and all the other normal things along those lines. I didn't see the importance in doing any of it, and the ONLY reason I did any of those things was because my parents made me and I didn't want to get punished for not doing them. I couldn't wait to become an adult, move out of my parents' house, and not have to do ANY of that stuff any more!

Well, about six weeks into my freshman year at Bama it started to dawn on me that there just might be some reasons for doing some of those things other than just avoiding the wrath of my mom. :) My sheets smelled like a sweaty horse blanket, my bathroom smelled like a horse stable, and the mound of trash bags in my kitchen was starting to take over the room and smell like a garbage dump. I was tired of having a sink full of dirty dishes and having to wash something every time I wanted to eat, and tired of digging through a huge pile of dirty laundry to find whatever was the least stinky to wear. I was tired of getting 4 hours of sleep per night, constantly being late to class, and always behind on assignments because I habitually stayed up half the night and didn't do any homework. It started to dawn on me that there were some very good reasons in of themselves to go to bed and get up at reasonable times, to do homework, to do laundry and dishes, and to keep a clean home. I started doing those things because I realized and fully understood why they were necessary and important, not because they were the rules and I'd be punished if I didn't.

Uh, what? Cleanliness is a primarily utilitarian habit which anyone can easily discover upon moving out of his parents' house. A better analogy for religion would be academic honesy: "Growing up, my teachers always lectured me on the importance of academic honesty. I didn't believe them, but avoided dishonesty anyway because I feared getting caught. Then I got to college and was presented with an opportunity to improve my grades dishonestly in a class without a grading curve. And then I..."

How would you finish that sentence? Christians are admonished against lying not because Moses chipped it into a stone tablet 3500 years ago, but because Truth is a natural law of sorts, so in violating that law, we end up harming ourselves (even if no one else is harmed in the process). But atheists don't believe in objective Truth (note the capital "T"), so when faced with the scenario outlined above, an unbeliever would have no reason not to profit from the dishonest act. He may choose to avoid it anyway, but if so, it won't be due to his chosen philosophy.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The New Republic's Elizabeth Stoker Bruenig just published an article titled "John Kasich's Passion for the Poor is Rankling Conservative Christians":

Ohio’s governor John Kasich certainly won't be president, nor even receive the Republican party’s nomination in 2016. But if Kasich does throw his hat into the increasingly packed Republican primary ring (as some sources suggest he intends to do), the long-term outcome for American politics could be even better than a hypothetical win. This is because, unlike his Republican competitors, Kasich takes Christian politics very seriously.

Within the lore of conservative Christian politics, there is a line of questionable thinking regarding state-funded welfare that is far more recent than its proliferators make it seem. The story goes like this. While Jesus Christ undoubtedly promoted (if not commanded) charity and generosity toward the less-fortunate, He never said that the state should be the vehicle of these virtues. Further, the tale continues, because taxes are involuntary and welfare is funded with tax revenue, welfare doesn’t count as morally meaningful charity, which is what Jesus intended to inspire with His preaching on the poor. Thus, we are led to conclude, support for poor and vulnerable people should be transmitted voluntarily through the community, thanks to the good graces of generous individuals. Echoes of this reasoning resound in the anti-welfare rhetoric of Republican frontrunners from Rand Paul to Rick Perry.

It’s a good story if you want to avoid supporting social insurance programs without overtly sacrificing your Christian street cred. Unfortunately, it’s also theologically incoherent. First, it isn’t clear why politicians, whose job entails the just governance of citizens or subjects, should consider support for the poor an individual task. If Christian wedding cake bakers should be permitted to exercise the fullness of their Christian conscience in their work, why wouldn't politicians? Moreover, when politicians do seek to support the poor, it need not be solely under the banner of charity: Justice and order are fine enough reasons to make sure all people are stable and secure. Lastly, the right-wing, anti-welfare narrative is alien to historical Christianity, contemporary global Christianity, and the teachings of Jesus Himself. Candida Moss, an author and professor of Early Christian studies at Notre Dame, explained to me in an interview, “Jesus hasn't always been viewed as an anti-taxation figure. His famous statement about ‘rendering to Caesar what is Caesar’s, rendering to God what is God's’ can easily be read as indicating that Christians should pay taxes. This idea that Christians shouldn't pay taxes is remarkably novel.”

When hawking a story that creaky, politicians must maintain a unified front, lest the disparity between right-wing zeal for Christian teachings on sexuality versus Christian teachings on poverty expose opportunism. Yet John Kasich, for whatever reason, did not get the memo.

Explaining his decision to expand Medicaid coverage in Ohio pursuant to the Affordable Care Act, Kasich told reporters in 2013 that “when you die and get to the meeting with Saint Peter, he’s probably not going to ask you much about what you did about keeping government small. But he is going to ask you what you did for the poor. You better have a good answer. " For linking the extension of healthcare coverage to some 275,000 vulnerable Ohians with his Christian principles, Kasich received scorn from flustered rightwingers. Writers from RedState, The National Review, and The Wall Street Journal all converged to offer a collective sneer at Kasich’s pro-poor Christian politics, and it seems that Kasich has kept the free-market right rankled enough to retain their censure to this day.

At a Wednesday dinner with a slew of right-wing thinkers and writers, Kasich held firm on Medicaid expansion, remarking during a tussle with National Review’s Avik Roy that “Maybe you think we should put [Medicaid recipients] in prison. I don’t. I don’t think that’s a conservative position. Because the reality is, if you don’t treat the drug-addicted and the mentally ill and the working poor, you’re gonna have them and they’re gonna be a big cost to society.” Earlier this month, an interview with Kasich featured in a National Journal profile of the governor featured his belief that “the conservative movement—a big chunk of which is faith-based—seems to have never read Matthew 25,” by which he refers to the New Testament sequence wherein Christ commands His followers to care for the naked, sick, foreign, hungry, and imprisoned. For Kasich, the fact that the state has an obligation to care for the vulnerable is nothing more than an outgrowth of this Christian message. So far, that position has been tough for fellow right-wingers to contravene.

Perhaps this is because Kasich’s reading of the Gospel is natural and intuitive. He derives a powerful ethical interest in caring for the poor from passages that inarguably display as much. For Christian conservatives who value Biblical literalism, such seemingly unmediated reading of the Bible should offer an obvious political guide. But caring for the poor and ordering society to support all members to a level of basic dignity are not free-market measures, and thus Kasich’s simple-hearted reading of Matthew 25 appears to have won him few friends among Republican elites. For this reason, his chances of pulling off any national wins are slim-to-none.

Kasich should still run. His sturdy brand of Christian politics belongs in a nation that has, for the greater part of the last century, drowned in rhetoric that paints Christianity and capitalism as natural allies, despite all evidence to the contrary. If Kasich runs in the primaries, his opponents will have to reckon with his Christianity in debates and campaign speeches to compete for the coveted religious right. The more that free-market apologists nursing Christian side interests try to explain the illusive continuity between their economics and their faith, the more, I suspect, that tenuous linkage will unravel. If nothing else, Kasich stands poised to puncture longstanding assumptions that connect anti-welfare capitalist interests to the votes of well-meaning Christians. Exposing the gap between free market economics and straightforward Christian politics may serve genuine Christian politics better than a Kasich presidency itself.

In case it's not obvious, Bruenig is a Catholic socialist. She's a fascinating follow on Twitter.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Week's Michael Brendan Dougherty just published an article titled "The flawed apostles of Holy Thursday":

Tonight, at the prescribed moment, an altar server at my parish will swing the thurible as the Gospels are lifted into the air. A packed crowd will hear the familiar narrative of Jesus Christ's final Passover supper with his disciples. As the Latin words of the Gospel are chanted, those following along will be confronted with a familiar scene, in which Jesus suddenly breaks with the prescriptions of Jewish ceremony and inaugurates a New Covenant and a new priesthood. God's people started as a family in the garden, then grew to a tribe in bondage, then to a nation in captivity, and now, with 12 men who represent the 12 tribes of Israel, Christ makes a new promise of a universal church.

The text of the Gospel shows that the 12 apostles were made into the first priests of the New Covenant, and tradition holds that all priestly authority within the Christian church descends through them. So it is astonishing to consider what kind of men these were. A little dense. Occasionally hot-headed. Fearful. Most certainly flawed. These were not idealized heroes. Their travails foretold of a church that Hilaire Belloc would call "an institute run with such knavish imbecility that if it were not the work of God it would not last a fortnight."

Let's consider Judas and then Peter. Judas' character is hard to know in the Gospels. He is something of a poseur of a social justice warrior. He scolds a woman for pouring her perfume out on Jesus, saying that it could have been sold for a great sum and become a help to the poor. But this mansplaining isn't the worst part. He holds the common purse of the group, steals from it. Jesus repeatedly foretells of his betrayal by one of the 12, and while the table quarrels, he sends Judas out. None of them seem to suspect Judas.

The following betrayal has been used by many of the greatest religious thinkers to hone their views of providence and predestination. Why would Jesus keep the the man he refers to as "a Satan" in his company? One of the simplest answers, I find, is that Christians must occasionally endure Judases as pastors, as bishops, and even as popes. Bishop Fulton Sheen very fittingly said that Judas "blisters" the lips of Jesus with a kiss. It is a reminder that the shiver of disgust I feel at a wicked prelate kissing the altar at the end of Mass is not unknown to God himself. And wicked men in the church are often not suspect at all. They are loved.

Then there is St. Peter, whom G.K. Chesterton fairly said was "a shuffler, a snob, a coward — in a word, a man." Peter is emotional in the way I understand. He works with his hands and in the weather. When he first meets Jesus he likely reeks of work and the sea. When he is confronted with a miraculous catch of fish, he falls on his face, saying, "Depart from Me Lord, for I am a sinful man." This moment is captured perfectly by the artist James Jasques Tissot's painting. Peter is harder on himself than the judge of nations would be with him.

Later, after losing the faith of the crowds by instructing them to eat his flesh and consume his blood, Jesus turns to Peter and asks if the disciples will leave, too. "Lord, to whom should we go?" is the reply. Unthinkable to follow then, now unthinkable to leave. He is loyal like a worker. And on Holy Thursday, Peter is full of protest. He protests the very idea of the Messiah lowering himself like a slave to wash his feet. He protests on behalf of his own commitment, "Why cannot I follow thee now? I am ready to lay down my life for thy sake."

Big words. Swiftly refuted by his actions. Instead of laying down his own life, he cuts off a soldier's ear. Instead of being loyal to the last, he denies even knowing Jesus as the crowds demand his blood. Carl Bloch's painting catches the moment before Peter's third denial turns into weeping. In the end Judas and Peter die painfully. One in shame. The other keeping his outrageous vow to die for his friend's sake.

As the liturgy, year after year, imprints these dramas into your imagination, one finds it a little easier to forgive the shufflers and snobs, the knavish imbeciles like ourselves. It is out of these, and with their faults, that saints are made. They are good company because they remain like us. The choir tonight will sing "Ubi Caritas" by Maurice Druruflé. And like Peter at that moment, and at every Holy Thursday, I will find God's humility upsetting. How dare he lower himself like that! And I'll hope that, when I die, my denials will be forgiven and that my last meal will be the same one that a shuffler like Peter consumed then.

Love that quote from Belloc.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Not sure if this will interest any of you, but I found it fascinating. This article, titled "David Bentley Hart Jumps the Shark: Why Animals Don't Go to Heaven," is the latest salvo in a long-standing feud between Catholic theologian Edward Feser and Russian Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart:

Eastern Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart has some kind of hang-up about Thomism. It leads him to do strange things. Two years ago, in First Things, Hart put forward a poorly reasoned critique of the Thomistic natural law approach to ethics. As his critics pointed out at the time, among the foibles of the piece was Hart’s conflation of the “new natural law” theory of thinkers such as John Finnis and Robert P. George with the “old natural law” approach of writers such as Ralph McInerny and Russell Hittinger. When the difference between these views is understood, Hart’s critique collapses.

Rather than trying to answer this objection and extricate himself from the hole he’d gotten himself into, Hart kept digging, relentlessly reiterating his fallacious conflation in a series of sometimes dyspeptic replies to his critics. I responded to Hart in a piece at First Things, in an article here at Public Discourse, and in a couple of follow-up posts at my own blog.

Two years later, it seems that Hart is still stinging. In the March 2015 issue of First Things, he briefly revisited the controversy, complaining that he “learned . . . that it is perilous to express doubts regarding the persuasive power of most natural-law theory in today’s world.” (I’ve commented on that piece elsewhere.) Now, in the April issue, Hart laments the influence of Thomism on the youth, recounting a conversation he had with “a young, ardently earnest Thomist.” Hart describes him as follows:

you know, one of those manualist neo-paleo-neo-Thomists of the baroque persuasion you run across ever more frequently these days, gathered in the murkier corners of coffee bars around candles in wine bottles, clad in black turtlenecks and berets, sipping espresso, smoking Gauloises, swaying to bebop, composing dithyrambic encomia to that Michiganabsolutely gone, totally wild, starry-bright and vision-wracked, mad angelic daddy-cat Garrigou-Lagrange . . .

Even given that Hart is trying to be funny, this is, needless to say, pretty weird.

But it gets weirder. Hart’s beef with Thomists this time around is that they deny that non-human animals possess “characteristics that are irreducibly personal,” that they deny that “many beasts command certain rational skills,” and that accordingly—and worst of all, for Hart—Thomists deny that there will be “puppies in paradise.” Hart, by contrast, affirms the “real participation of animal creation . . . in the final blessedness of the Kingdom,” asserting that Heaven will be “positively teeming with fauna.” To make his case, he insists on “the intelligence, cognitive and social” of the humpback whale, the bottlenose dolphin, and the orca. Alas, Hart failed to mention the shark. Perhaps he was too busy jumping it.

Hart is correct to note that Thomists deny that there will be non-human animals in Heaven. But he gives the impression that Thomists “reject all evidence of intentionality . . . or affection in animals,” and that they are committed to a “mechanistic” account of non-human animals according to which their apparently conscious behavior reduces to “biomechanical stimulus and response.” He insinuates that at least many Thomists maintain an “unsettlingly gnostic picture” of human nature on which “the vegetal, animal, and rational functions of the soul must be segregated into strictly impermeable compartments,” so that the human soul becomes a “Cartesian ghost” inhabiting the physical body.

None of this could be further from the truth. As with his critique of natural law two years ago, Hart’s latest anti-Thomistic salvo is a showy exercise in firing blanks, all shock and no awe. Hart’s piece is long on rhetoric and short on argumentation, riddled with sweeping assertions, attacks on straw men, and failures to make crucial distinctions. The reason why Thomists tend to deny that non-human animals go to heaven has nothing to do with those attributed by Hart. Let’s untangle the mess.

Rational and Other Animals

Following Aristotle, Aquinas and Thomists in general distinguish between three basic forms of life: vegetative, animal, and rational. Vegetative forms of life are characterized by three sorts of activity. First, they transform non-living matter into living matter; second, they go through a growth cycle; and third, they reproduce themselves.

Animal forms of life also engage in nutrition, growth, and reproduction. But animals are also characterized by three additional activities. First, they are sentient, taking in information about their environments and about their own bodily states via specialized sense organs. Sentience involves being consciously aware of what these sense organs reveal—of colors and sounds, shapes and textures, heat and cold, itches and tickles, pleasure and pain, and so forth. Animals may also form images of things they have experienced, such as a visual image of an object previously seen or an auditory image of a sound previously heard.

Second, animals form appetites or inner drives to pursue or avoid various objects or activities. Third, animals are capable of locomotion, as when they move themselves toward or away from the objects sensation reveals, in response to the promptings of their appetites.

These three distinctive features of animals radically transform the vegetative activities they share with other living things. Animals not only take in nutrients, as plants do; they can also actively pursue these nutrients (as when hunting prey), can feel a strong desire for them (as in hunger), and can take pleasure in the process of taking them in (as when enjoying a meal).

Now, human beings are rational animals, and for Thomists both the “rationality” and the “animality” are crucial to understanding our nature. Just as being an animal includes the activities of vegetative forms of life, so too does being human include the activities of animal (and thus of vegetative) forms of life. Thus, human beings carry out the activities of nutrition, growth, reproduction, sensation and imagination, appetite, and locomotion. But on top of this, human beings, unlike plants and animals, are capable of intellectual and volitional activity.

To have an intellect is to be the sort of thing that can grasp abstract concepts (as when we grasp concepts like “being a man” and “being mortal”); can put concepts together into complete thoughts (as when we have the thought that “All men are mortal”); and can reason from one thought to another in accordance with principles of logic (as when we reason from the premises that “All men are mortal” and “Socrates is a man” to the conclusion that “Socrates is mortal”).

Bringing things under concepts and grasping logical relations between these concepts is what understanding or rationality amounts to. To be capable of volitional activity—to have a will—is to be capable of freely choosing in accordance with what the intellect judges to be true, rather than being moved merely by the promptings of sensation, imagination, and appetite, as non-human animals are.

Concepts vs. Sense Images

For the Thomist, intellect, understanding, or rationality differs radically from the sensation and imagination of other animals. The easiest way to see how is to note the differences between a concept on the one hand, and a mere sense image on the other.

First, a true concept is abstract and universal, whereas a sense image is concrete and particular. Consider the example of a triangle. Any image of a triangle that you can bring before your mind’s eye is always going to be of a black triangle, a red triangle, or a triangle of some other color; it is always going to be of a right triangle, an obtuse triangle, or an acute triangle; and it is always going to be of an equilateral, isosceles, or scalene triangle. That is to say, it will always of its nature resemble some triangles but not others. By contrast, your concept of a triangle fits all triangles without exception—whether black, red, or no color at all, whether right, obtuse, or acute, and whether equilateral, isosceles, or scalene. Hence, the concept is distinct from the mental image.

Second, concepts can be clear and distinct even when the corresponding mental images are vague and indistinct. For example, it is very easy to conceptualize or understand the difference between a crowd of 1,203 people, a crowd of 1,554 people, and a crowd of 2,008 people. But it is impossible to form a mental image of a crowd of 1,203 people which is clearly and distinctly different from an image of a crowd of 1,554 or 2,008 people. Hence conceptualizing or understanding the difference is not a matter of forming mental images.

Third, we have concepts of things for which we can form no mental image at all. For example, we have the concept of something’s “being legal,” or of one statement’s “logically entailing” another, or of two claims being “inconsistent.” But legality, logical entailment, and inconsistency are not material objects of which we might form sense images. Again, it follows that having a concept is not reducible to having a mental image.

Now, just as animals incorporate but radically transform the activities of merely vegetative forms of life, so too does being human involve both incorporating and radically transforming the activities we share in common with non-human animals. Hence, like other animals, we have sensory awareness. But unlike other animals, we can conceptualize what we perceive and feel, and this fundamentally alters the character of our perceptual experiences and appetites. A dog can see a tree and we can see a tree, but the “seeing” we do is very different from that of which a dog is capable. For the dog cannot see a tree as a tree—it cannot conceptualize or understand what it is seeing by putting it within the general class “tree”; cannot infer that since this class is itself part of the larger class “plant,” to see a tree is also to see a plant; and cannot grasp that to be a thing of the sort that is seen entails taking in nutrients, going through a growth cycle, etc. A dog can feel pain and we can feel pain, but the “pain” we feel is very different from that of which a dog is capable. For we can conceptualize the pain as indicative of injury or bodily disorder, can infer that long-term health or even life might be in jeopardy, and so forth.

Think of it this way: animals and plants both need water, will flourish if they get it and atrophy if they don’t, and behave in ways that facilitate their getting it—plants by sinking roots, animals by searching for a stream, pond, or dog dish. But it doesn’t follow that plants, like animals, know anything like the pangs of thirst or the satisfaction of quenching that thirst. Similarly, that a dog will snuggle up to a child or wag its tail when its master arrives does not entail that its “love” is comparable to the highly conceptualized love that a rational animal feels for his child, friend, spouse, country, or God.

Language

The telltale mark of the difference between a rational animal and a non-rational animal is language. Here further distinctions must be made, because the term “language” is often used indiscriminately to refer to very different sorts of phenomena.

The philosopher Karl Popper distinguished four functions of language: the expressive function, which involves the outward expression of an inner state; the signaling function, which adds to the expressive function the generation of a reaction in others; the descriptive function, which involves the statement of a complete thought of the sort that might be expressed in a declarative sentence; and the argumentative function, which involves the statement of an inference from one thought to another. Some non-human animals are capable of the first two functions, and in that sense might be said to have “language.” But the latter two functions involve the grasp of concepts, and human beings alone possess language of the sort that expresses concepts, thoughts, and arguments.

You don’t have to be a Thomist to see this. The late American philosopher Donald Davidson presented an influential set of arguments to the effect that thought and language go hand in hand, so that no creature that lacks language (in the relevant sense of “language”) can be said to think or reason in the strict sense. Suppose a dog hears someone jangling some keys outside the door and starts wagging its tail and jumping about excitedly. A natural way to describe what is going on is to say that the dog thinks that its master is home. If what this amounts to is (say) merely that the sound of the keys jangling triggers in the dog’s consciousness a visual image of the master walking in the door, which in turn generates a feeling of excitement, then the Thomist (and, presumably, Davidson) are happy to agree. But what the dog does not have is a thought in the sense in which a human being might have the thought that the master is home. Lacking linguistic expressions like “master,” “home,” etc., the dog does not have the concept “master” or the concept “home,” and thus lacks any mental state with the conceptual content of the thought that “the master is home.”

Of course, it is sometimes claimed that some apes have been taught to use language as well as very young children can. But from a Thomistic point of view, what matters is not whether we can get a creature to mimic certain superficial aspects of language under artificial circumstances, but rather how it naturally tends to act when left to its own devices. And in their natural state, no animals other than human beings ever get beyond what Popper calls the expressive and signaling functions of language.

Thomism Rejects Cartesian Dualism

Descartes held that non-human animals lack language, and he also notoriously held that non-human animals are mere automata—that, appearances notwithstanding, such animals are devoid of consciousness and behave according to entirely mechanical principles. But it would be fallacious to infer that anyone who thinks that animals lack language (and thus lack intelligence) must agree with Descartes’s bizarre view that they are mere insensate mechanisms. For the reasons Descartes held this view have nothing to do with language or intelligence per se, but rather with his account of the nature of material things, both living and non-living—an account that is diametrically opposed to the Aristotelian-Thomistic account.

Following Aristotle and Aquinas, Thomists hold that there are not only radical differences in kind among the three forms of living thing, but also a no less radical difference in kind between living things and inorganic matter. Descartes denied this. For Descartes, all material things— tables and chairs, rocks and dirt, trees and grass, dogs and cats, and human bodies too— ultimately have the same nature. In particular, they are all merely extended things, in the sense of possessing the geometrical properties of length, width, and depth, being located in space, and moving from one point in space to another. In Descartes’s view, these geometrical features exhaust the nature of matter. Material things are entirely devoid of thought or consciousness, and operate according to purely mechanical principles, like bits of clockwork pushing and pulling one another. A living thing differs from a stone only in degree, only insofar as it is made up of more intricate bits of clockwork pushing and pulling against one another in more complex patterns.

Now a mind, for Descartes, is the sort of thing that can utter to itself “I think, therefore I am”—that is, it can know for certain that it exists as a thinking thing even if the entire material world, including the body it is associated with, were a mere hallucination. Hence, the mind’s entire essence just is thought or consciousness, and it has no material properties at all. For it would be just the thing it is even if the body it is associated with went out of existence, or even if that body had never really existed in the first place.

The world is thus bifurcated into two kinds of substances: material substances, which are purely mechanical objects, as unthinking and unconscious as bits of clockwork; and thinking substances, entities of pure thought or consciousness, devoid of length, width, depth, position in space, or any other physical properties. A human being is a composite of these two radically different kinds of object. As the philosopher Gilbert Ryle famously summed up Descartes’s view, the human body is like a machine and the soul like a ghost that haunts the machine.

The upshot of this view is that any material thing that is not conjoined to a thinking substance—to a res cogitans, to use Descartes’s famous Latin expression—is devoid of thought, language, or consciousness. Thus does Descartes arrive at his notorious conclusion that animals, which lack language, must therefore also lack consciousness. They must be purely material substances, which for Descartes entails that they are mere automata, operating on entirely mechanical principles. A dog will let out a yelp when kicked and wag its tail when fed, but for Descartes this is not because it really feels either pain or pleasure. Rather, it is merely wired in such a way that it generates those behavioral responses when prompted by the appropriate stimuli, like a robot but more complex and made of different materials.

Cartesian vs. Thomistic Accounts of Matter

The view is bizarre in the extreme, but it is perfectly intelligible given Descartes’s account of the nature of material substances. It is that account of matter, however—and not anything to do with language per se, nor anything to do with the nature of intellectual powers—that leads Descartes to this conclusion. Now, Thomists and other Aristotelians reject Descartes’s account of matter. They maintain that while matter does indeed have the geometrical properties Descartes emphasizes, its nature is by no means exhausted by these properties. Hence, there is no reason to think that a purely material thing would necessarily be devoid of consciousness. And thus, in denying that non-human animals have rational or intellectual powers, Thomists are in no way thereby committed (as Descartes was) to holding that they are devoid of consciousness altogether. For the Thomist, that a creature cannot “think” in the sense in which we think—that is, by grasping abstract concepts, putting them together into complete thoughts, and reasoning logically from one thought to another—simply does not entail that it cannot feel pain or pleasure or that it lacks appetites, emotions, and conscious experiences.

Indeed, it is, if anyone, modern materialists who have a difficult time accounting for how animals—including human beings—can be conscious. For while materialists reject Descartes’s notion of res cogitans or thinking substance, they essentially endorse (some details aside) Descartes’s conception of matter. The view that there is nothing more to matter than what can be captured in the purely quantitative, mathematical language of physics, is widely held. That is why contemporary philosophers fret over the “problem of consciousness,” the question of how conscious awareness could ever come to exist in a purely material universe. It is nothing about the nature of consciousness itself, but rather the purely mathematical conception of matter they have inherited from Descartes, that generates this problem and makes it so intractable.

The thing to emphasize for present purposes, though, is that Hart’s criticisms of Thomists are aimed at an outrageous straw man. Hart insinuates that those who disagree with him “reject all evidence of . . . affection in animals,” and endorse a “mechanistic” account in which animal behavior reduces to “biomechanical stimulus and response.” But while this is true of Descartes, it is most certainly not true of Thomists, who reject Descartes’s mechanistic conception of material substances. In fact, Descartes’s conception was developed precisely in opposition to Thomists and other Aristotelians!

Similarly, for the Thomist, “the vegetal, animal, and rational functions of the soul” are not, contrary to Hart’s caricature, “segregated into strictly impermeable compartments.” On the contrary, as we have seen, for the Thomist, to be an animal just is in part to incorporate the vegetative functions, and to be a human being or rational animal just is in part to incorporate the vegetative and animal functions. Precisely for this reason, the human soul is not, for the Thomist, a “Cartesian ghost” inhabiting a mechanical body. Rather, for the Thomist, the human soul— which is conceived of as the form of the living human being—is the principle of our vegetative and animal functions no less than it is the principle of our rational activities.

All Dogs Don’t Go to Heaven

So, the reason Thomists deny that non-human animals are destined for Heaven has nothing to do with a Cartesian or “mechanistic” conception of animals. What is the reason, then?

The reason is that non-human animals are entirely corporeal creatures, all matter and no spirit. To be sure, the matter of which they are composed is not the bloodlessly mechanical, mathematical Cartesian kind. Non-human animals are not machines; they really are conscious, really do feel pain and pleasure, really do show affection and anger. But these conscious states are nevertheless entirely dependent on bodily organs, as is everything else non-human animals do. Hence, when their bodies die, there is nothing left that might carry on into an afterlife. Fido’s death is thus the end of Fido.

If human beings were entirely corporeal creatures, the same would be true of us. But, the Thomist argues, human beings are not entirely corporeal. We are largely corporeal—as with Fido, our ability to take in nutrients, to grow and reproduce, to see, hear, imagine, and move about, depends on our having bodily organs. But our distinctively intellectual activities—our capacity to grasp abstract concepts, to reason logically, and so forth—are different. They could not be entirely corporeal.

There are several reasons why, though spelling them out adequately requires complex philosophical argumentation that is beyond the scope of this essay. For example, some Thomists argue that thoughts can have a precise or unambiguous content, whereas no purely material representation could have such a content -- in which case thinking is not reducible to the having of material representations encoded in the brain. (I have defended this line of argument at length elsewhere.)

If human beings do have, in addition to their bodily or corporeal activities, an activity that is essentially incorporeal—namely, intellectual activity or thought in the strict sense—then when the corporeal side of human nature is destroyed, it doesn’t follow that the human being as a whole is destroyed. There is an aspect to our nature—the intellect—that can carry on beyond the death of the body, precisely because even before death it was never entirely dependent on the body. This is why there is such a thing as an afterlife for human beings, as there is not for non-human animals.

Hart, like so many people these days, seems to have an excessively sentimental attachment to non-human animals. Perhaps he simply can’t imagine Heaven being a very happy place without a resurrected Fido to share it with.

Consider this. Christ tells us that there will not be marriage in Heaven, and the clear implication is that there will not be romance or sexual intercourse, either. Young people find it difficult to understand how we could fail to miss all of this, and anyone with an amorous disposition can sympathize. But, in fact, we will not miss it. That’s the thing about the beatific vision: it rather leaves everything else in its dust. And I submit that if you won’t miss sex when you’re in Heaven, it’s a safe bet that you’re not going to give much thought to Fido either.
 

no.1IrishFan

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Can someone please explain the intelligence in the design of fault lines?

The people of Nepal and I would like to know.
 
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Veritate Duce Progredi

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Can someone please explain the intelligence in the design of fault lines?

The people of Nepal and I would like to know.

Oh, I get it. There are painful, difficult, sad things in this world so obviously there is no God.

I see the soundness in that reasoning, well done. We may as well close this thread after your successful checkmate post. It's hard to imagine people were able to miss that giant f&*%ing hole in their reasoning.

Kudos to you for identifying and enlightening. :zthinking
 

Old Man Mike

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The tone of the question suggests that nothing anyone could say would sway your emotions [sort of understandable; this is just another version of the rejection of spiritual world views inspired by "why do bad things happen to good people"], I'll state some ideas for the general IE audience [Whiskey will at least read this with interest] anyway.

A). fault lines and the earthquake and volcanic phenomena associated with them are a by-product of continental drift. If you want continental drift, you get fault line phenomena. But why do you want continental drift?

B). it is rather strongly suspected by today's science community [the expert protobiology and evolutionary science parts of it anyway] that without continental drift you will not get life formation on any long term basis, and particularly advanced land-based life forms. In short, without continental drift, no humans exist at all. Why?

C). Here are some of the reasons:

1]. Plate tectonics play a major role in the generation of the Earth's magnetic field. That field protects our DNA from ionizing/mutating radiation and protects our atmosphere from being inexorably dissipated into space;

2]. Plate tectonics is responsible for the "surfacing" and recycling of vital resources which "feed" the surface biosphere. This is especially true of carbon which is constantly being removed from the nutritional system by things like coccolithiphores [little things which make calcium carbonate shells, quite pretty --- dare I say well-designed geometrically? --- and then die off depositing their shells by the google-tons deep in the sea.] Without tectonics such carbon loss would not be restored. Another example of this would involve essential bioactive metals.

To get plate tectonics you must have a significant hydrosphere --- big bunches of water are also pretty important for life. Then the interaction of the hydrosphere with the dynamic nutrient recycling allows enough molecular interaction under energetic conditions to facilitate biomolecular evolution --- i.e. proteins, DNA, and that kind of stuff to lead towards cells and later advanced life. Venus has no hydrosphere and no plate tectonics, and no life. Mars may have had a hydrosphere and plate tectonics very early, but no more [the monster shield volcanoes like Olympus Mons could not have formed with a drifting surface]. So no advanced home-grown Martians.

The Theistic way of talking about this is that in the original "Words"/ Laws of Creation, there were established the fundamental laws of physics and chemistry that allow star, planet, and geological formation, so as to evolve life, and complex advanced intelligence. This is essentially inbred in the Plan/Design of the Universe [note that this is a very minimalist version of the concept of Intelligent Design, as it involves only the most fundamental laws, and allows them to go forward mechanically, producing all the things that the sciences investigate.] These Rules embedded in Nature are there to allow entities like ourselves to exist. Without them, we don't.

If one insists upon continuing to question this with regards to things like major earthquakes, then one is not legitimately questioning the existence of such things according to the Natural Law designs, but is really only able to insist upon something like, "Then why doesn't God prevent them {by a miracle}?"

This then tosses us back into the "why doesn't God work miracles to prevent bad things from happening to good people?" We've been through that conundrum several times on this site, and its relationship to the demands of a Hidden Hand where God is concerned, in order to preserve a level playing field for us to make free-will faith-based choices. Some folks will never be able to relate to that line of discussion; some do. It will come as a relief to all that I'll not revisit the relationship now --- it results in consistent disappointing "discussion".
 

NDohio

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The tone of the question suggests that nothing anyone could say would sway your emotions [sort of understandable; this is just another version of the rejection of spiritual world views inspired by "why do bad things happen to good people"], I'll state some ideas for the general IE audience [Whiskey will at least read this with interest] anyway.

A). fault lines and the earthquake and volcanic phenomena associated with them are a by-product of continental drift. If you want continental drift, you get fault line phenomena. But why do you want continental drift?

B). it is rather strongly suspected by today's science community [the expert protobiology and evolutionary science parts of it anyway] that without continental drift you will not get life formation on any long term basis, and particularly advanced land-based life forms. In short, without continental drift, no humans exist at all. Why?

C). Here are some of the reasons:

1]. Plate tectonics play a major role in the generation of the Earth's magnetic field. That field protects our DNA from ionizing/mutating radiation and protects our atmosphere from being inexorably dissipated into space;

2]. Plate tectonics is responsible for the "surfacing" and recycling of vital resources which "feed" the surface biosphere. This is especially true of carbon which is constantly being removed from the nutritional system by things like coccolithiphores [little things which make calcium carbonate shells, quite pretty --- dare I say well-designed geometrically? --- and then die off depositing their shells by the google-tons deep in the sea.] Without tectonics such carbon loss would not be restored. Another example of this would involve essential bioactive metals.

To get plate tectonics you must have a significant hydrosphere --- big bunches of water are also pretty important for life. Then the interaction of the hydrosphere with the dynamic nutrient recycling allows enough molecular interaction under energetic conditions to facilitate biomolecular evolution --- i.e. proteins, DNA, and that kind of stuff to lead towards cells and later advanced life. Venus has no hydrosphere and no plate tectonics, and no life. Mars may have had a hydrosphere and plate tectonics very early, but no more [the monster shield volcanoes like Olympus Mons could not have formed with a drifting surface]. So no advanced home-grown Martians.

The Theistic way of talking about this is that in the original "Words"/ Laws of Creation, there were established the fundamental laws of physics and chemistry that allow star, planet, and geological formation, so as to evolve life, and complex advanced intelligence. This is essentially inbred in the Plan/Design of the Universe [note that this is a very minimalist version of the concept of Intelligent Design, as it involves only the most fundamental laws, and allows them to go forward mechanically, producing all the things that the sciences investigate.] These Rules embedded in Nature are there to allow entities like ourselves to exist. Without them, we don't.

If one insists upon continuing to question this with regards to things like major earthquakes, then one is not legitimately questioning the existence of such things according to the Natural Law designs, but is really only able to insist upon something like, "Then why doesn't God prevent them {by a miracle}?"

This then tosses us back into the "why doesn't God work miracles to prevent bad things from happening to good people?" We've been through that conundrum several times on this site, and its relationship to the demands of a Hidden Hand where God is concerned, in order to preserve a level playing field for us to make free-will faith-based choices. Some folks will never be able to relate to that line of discussion; some do. It will come as a relief to all that I'll not revisit the relationship now --- it results in consistent disappointing "discussion".

Even though many of us don't comment on your posts, I am fairly certain many of us (not just Whiskey) read with great interest. I truly enjoy your insight on how theology and science are intertwined.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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I haven't posted in this thread for a while.

Boy, am I happy.

Not about posting or not. Just in general.

I am with you all. Where I don't believe there is a "supernatural hand" affecting my daily life, I do believe there is a higher spirituality than we can experience in this existence.

I have room for a lot of beliefs that differ from mine.

But I will tell you this, I believe there is one force more powerful than all others in the universe, will to love, and love itself.

That is my purest experience on the spiritual plane, the most ascendant power in my life.

I do not have the urge to lash out and hurt any of you for your beliefs, no matter how different than mine.

One of the true shames of the New Testament is that the true message of Jesus's teachings were lost in a quest for proof of divinity, heaven, hell, immortal souls, and God himself. All that is conjecture. And really irrelevant, when you think about it.

What Mike just did is give a little logic to an incredibly complex world. Of which we understand what, a minute fraction? And what are the possibilities of there being worlds in realities beyond that? What do we know of them. Nothing.

Relax, enjoy the ride. Make a friend with someone you do not agree. Have a conversation. You may learn something!
 

connor_in

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My Dad had two theolgical questions that vexed him for years...

1) Does the Pope sh!t in the woods?

and

2) Is the bear Catholic?
 

IrishLion

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Whiskey, I'm working through the end of the Malazan series right now. I'm nearly halfway through The Crippled God. I've been moving fast lately, so the books are beginning to blur.

It's either in Dust of Dreams or The Crippled God, but at one point there is a section where a character is debating, with himself, the merits of free will and salvation. I wish I could remember which character it was... I want to say Gruntle or Fiddler.

Regardless, the character came to an interesting conclusion that kind of made me think.

His belief was along the lines of, "If the gods give you free will to choose your own path, and yet you are damned for all eternity if you don't choose the correct path, is that really free will after all?" Why does the freedom to choose matter?

I'm not making a commentary or trying to spark a debate, but I know you've read the series and understand the tone and the underlying themes, and I thought that seeing this kind of faith-based exploration stated so plainly was surprising.
 
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no.1IrishFan

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The tone of the question suggests that nothing anyone could say would sway your emotions [sort of understandable; this is just another version of the rejection of spiritual world views inspired by "why do bad things happen to good people"], I'll state some ideas for the general IE audience [Whiskey will at least read this with interest] anyway.

A). fault lines and the earthquake and volcanic phenomena associated with them are a by-product of continental drift. If you want continental drift, you get fault line phenomena. But why do you want continental drift?

B). it is rather strongly suspected by today's science community [the expert protobiology and evolutionary science parts of it anyway] that without continental drift you will not get life formation on any long term basis, and particularly advanced land-based life forms. In short, without continental drift, no humans exist at all. Why?

C). Here are some of the reasons:

1]. Plate tectonics play a major role in the generation of the Earth's magnetic field. That field protects our DNA from ionizing/mutating radiation and protects our atmosphere from being inexorably dissipated into space;

2]. Plate tectonics is responsible for the "surfacing" and recycling of vital resources which "feed" the surface biosphere. This is especially true of carbon which is constantly being removed from the nutritional system by things like coccolithiphores [little things which make calcium carbonate shells, quite pretty --- dare I say well-designed geometrically? --- and then die off depositing their shells by the google-tons deep in the sea.] Without tectonics such carbon loss would not be restored. Another example of this would involve essential bioactive metals.

To get plate tectonics you must have a significant hydrosphere --- big bunches of water are also pretty important for life. Then the interaction of the hydrosphere with the dynamic nutrient recycling allows enough molecular interaction under energetic conditions to facilitate biomolecular evolution --- i.e. proteins, DNA, and that kind of stuff to lead towards cells and later advanced life. Venus has no hydrosphere and no plate tectonics, and no life. Mars may have had a hydrosphere and plate tectonics very early, but no more [the monster shield volcanoes like Olympus Mons could not have formed with a drifting surface]. So no advanced home-grown Martians.

The Theistic way of talking about this is that in the original "Words"/ Laws of Creation, there were established the fundamental laws of physics and chemistry that allow star, planet, and geological formation, so as to evolve life, and complex advanced intelligence. This is essentially inbred in the Plan/Design of the Universe [note that this is a very minimalist version of the concept of Intelligent Design, as it involves only the most fundamental laws, and allows them to go forward mechanically, producing all the things that the sciences investigate.] These Rules embedded in Nature are there to allow entities like ourselves to exist. Without them, we don't.

If one insists upon continuing to question this with regards to things like major earthquakes, then one is not legitimately questioning the existence of such things according to the Natural Law designs, but is really only able to insist upon something like, "Then why doesn't God prevent them {by a miracle}?"

This then tosses us back into the "why doesn't God work miracles to prevent bad things from happening to good people?" We've been through that conundrum several times on this site, and its relationship to the demands of a Hidden Hand where God is concerned, in order to preserve a level playing field for us to make free-will faith-based choices. Some folks will never be able to relate to that line of discussion; some do. It will come as a relief to all that I'll not revisit the relationship now --- it results in consistent disappointing "discussion".

My apologies for revisiting a topic that some consider solved. However, I feel this one is somewhat distinct from the "why does god let bad things happen" debate. I very much enjoy your posts, OMM, they're always top notch, but I feel like my question wasn't really answered in your response. More than likely because I chose to be sarcastic instead of getting to my point. What I'd really like to know is why believers tend to completely ignore the concept of wrath. IMO, it holds far more intellectual merit than the idea that the creator of the universe couldn't create a world that didn't occasionally have a giant hiccup and kill several thousand people.
This isn't a case of blaming god when a psychopath goes on a killing spree. If he created the world, I cannot logically believe he didn't foresee deadly earthquakes based on the laws of nature he set forth. This bad seems to be purely on him alone. Unless it happens for a reason. Why are believers so sure that god wouldn't show his wrath? He had no problem doing it in the bible.
 

no.1IrishFan

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The tone of the question suggests that nothing anyone could say would sway your emotions [sort of understandable; this is just another version of the rejection of spiritual world views inspired by "why do bad things happen to good people"], I'll state some ideas for the general IE audience [Whiskey will at least read this with interest] anyway.

A). fault lines and the earthquake and volcanic phenomena associated with them are a by-product of continental drift. If you want continental drift, you get fault line phenomena. But why do you want continental drift?

B). it is rather strongly suspected by today's science community [the expert protobiology and evolutionary science parts of it anyway] that without continental drift you will not get life formation on any long term basis, and particularly advanced land-based life forms. In short, without continental drift, no humans exist at all. Why?

C). Here are some of the reasons:

1]. Plate tectonics play a major role in the generation of the Earth's magnetic field. That field protects our DNA from ionizing/mutating radiation and protects our atmosphere from being inexorably dissipated into space;

2]. Plate tectonics is responsible for the "surfacing" and recycling of vital resources which "feed" the surface biosphere. This is especially true of carbon which is constantly being removed from the nutritional system by things like coccolithiphores [little things which make calcium carbonate shells, quite pretty --- dare I say well-designed geometrically? --- and then die off depositing their shells by the google-tons deep in the sea.] Without tectonics such carbon loss would not be restored. Another example of this would involve essential bioactive metals.

To get plate tectonics you must have a significant hydrosphere --- big bunches of water are also pretty important for life. Then the interaction of the hydrosphere with the dynamic nutrient recycling allows enough molecular interaction under energetic conditions to facilitate biomolecular evolution --- i.e. proteins, DNA, and that kind of stuff to lead towards cells and later advanced life. Venus has no hydrosphere and no plate tectonics, and no life. Mars may have had a hydrosphere and plate tectonics very early, but no more [the monster shield volcanoes like Olympus Mons could not have formed with a drifting surface]. So no advanced home-grown Martians.

The Theistic way of talking about this is that in the original "Words"/ Laws of Creation, there were established the fundamental laws of physics and chemistry that allow star, planet, and geological formation, so as to evolve life, and complex advanced intelligence. This is essentially inbred in the Plan/Design of the Universe [note that this is a very minimalist version of the concept of Intelligent Design, as it involves only the most fundamental laws, and allows them to go forward mechanically, producing all the things that the sciences investigate.] These Rules embedded in Nature are there to allow entities like ourselves to exist. Without them, we don't.

If one insists upon continuing to question this with regards to things like major earthquakes, then one is not legitimately questioning the existence of such things according to the Natural Law designs, but is really only able to insist upon something like, "Then why doesn't God prevent them {by a miracle}?"

This then tosses us back into the "why doesn't God work miracles to prevent bad things from happening to good people?" We've been through that conundrum several times on this site, and its relationship to the demands of a Hidden Hand where God is concerned, in order to preserve a level playing field for us to make free-will faith-based choices. Some folks will never be able to relate to that line of discussion; some do. It will come as a relief to all that I'll not revisit the relationship now --- it results in consistent disappointing "discussion".

Sorry, double post.
 
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Old Man Mike

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Concerning a wrathful Old Testament-style God:

A). Doubtless some believers do think of God in this style. I do not. I believe that much of the OT is ancient historical cultural-specific mythology and even self-serving propaganda. There are parts of the OT which I find to be spiritual "keepers", especially for allegoric meditation, but, frankly, not many. A wrathful God is not my God, nor is He the God of the Gospels.

B). "Wrath" is a completely irrational concept if not applied to a "person-to-person" relationship. To engage in "Wrath" towards some aggregate is crazy unless the aggregate is composed of exactly equal parts as concerns the wrath-inspiring characteristic. It beggars my imagination that one could find ANY equally-attributable characteristic in all of the affected people of Nepal, other than they were there and they were people. Neither of those qualities is particularly wrath-inspiring in any mind other than a psychopath. My God is not a psychopath.

C). Wrath might be ascribable to someone's concept of a somewhat-rational powerful being's reaction to another being or closely coherent group if that being or group had done something to thoroughly piss the powerful being off. Anger CAN exist in a rational mind, although Hatred is debatable as to its co-existence there. Wrath seems usually to be the extreme lashing out which comes with Hatred, as it has the sense of being beyond mere anger. My God doesn't do individual-focussed wrath either.

D). My God is the Gospel God of Love, not the OT God of Wrath. My God will have a Quality of Justice, but not "wrathfully" expressed --- my God's MUCH bigger than that. Objections doubtless springing up [again] at this moment will [depressingly] throw the non-discussion right back into: then why does your God allow bad things to happen...?etc. I refuse to continuously revisit this and remark only that allowing universal laws to function without continuous preference for good people over bad IS an expression of Love as it is the only way that true Love can be chosen. [the other reality reduces to "Oh It's in my best interest always to be good or else I will obviously get my ass kicked like all the bad guys do."]

E). It seems almost stunning to me that a person would ask other mere humans [like fellow travelers on IE] to answer the heaviest questions ever occurring to the finite human mind, and when we cannot sufficiently answer them [particularly in a chat site format!], use our inadequacy not only to not buy into our point-of-view [which is fair], but to decide that our point of view is unthinkable, or otherwise to be derisively [sometimes] rejected [I recall "childishness" and "cultish" type comments often in the past.] Honest fellows good and true should not be so fast to put down other honest fellows good and true. That is rejection getting closer to wrath than reason, or Love.
 

Whiskeyjack

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His belief was along the lines of, "If the gods give you free will to choose your own path, and yet you are damned for all eternity if you don't choose the correct path, is that really free will after all?" Why does the freedom to choose matter?

First, keep in mind that Erikson is a secular "humanist", which shines through frequently in the Malazan series. For instance, his pantheon is a very pagan one; it's just human drama writ large. There's no objective moral authority in his universe. Only "man as the measure of all things", who makes and destroys "gods" capriciously. Contrast that with the thoroughly Catholic pantheon of Tolkein's Middle Earth, etc.

Second, that dialogue, which is an implicit critique of a cartoonish Christian soteriology, misses the mark because it conceives of hell as divine retribution; as if God were a spurned lover who inflicts wildly unjust punishments on those unfortunate souls that simply made poor choices in life.

The Catholic view is that God doesn't send anyone to hell; every man chooses where to go for himself. If he's spent his life denying his selfish impulses and pouring himself out for others, his soul at death will be receptive to salvation. Not only that, but his soul will have been conditioned through a lifetime of virtuous choices in such a way that spending eternity in God's presence will actually be paradise for him. The popular cartoonish vision of heaven as an endless festival of hedonism is utterly mistaken; heaven involves taking one's place among the community of saints and angels united in eternal worship of God.

For those who spend their lives indulging their selfish impulses, rationalizing their greed, and essentially worshipping themselves, heaven would be intolerable. Such souls at death are not receptive to salvation, and free will would be meaningless (and love therefor impossible) if God forced such people into communion with him anyway. The ego has a sort of spiritual gravity to it, and if one indulges it excessively, death becomes an event horizon past which not even God's grace can reach.

This isn't a case of blaming god when a psychopath goes on a killing spree. If he created the world, I cannot logically believe he didn't foresee deadly earthquakes based on the laws of nature he set forth. This bad seems to be purely on him alone.

You seem to accept that psychopaths don't contradict the Christian concept of God because such sinful behavior is explained by the fallen state of man. But the Catholic view is that our entire universe exists in a fallen state as well. Our universe is just as imperfect as we are. But that fact does not disprove the possibility of a perfect universe (heaven) or a perfect man (Jesus); or even that this fallen universe and our fallen selves are perfectible through God's grace.

I suspect that OMM may have a different take on this though, since he seems to take a dim view of Augustine's concept of sin.
 
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Old Man Mike

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On the freedom to choose and choosing the correct path inquiry, I don't get the conundrum. One should not consider the after-the-fact results of one's free choice as having somehow backwatered the free state that chose in the first place. Time only goes one direction. The only way to legitimately link a "result" with an "action" is to assume that there is no freedom there at all, the whole thing is intimately bound together, and thereby determined. I don't know anything about that writer, but if his reasoning is as reported then he has had an illogical brainfart. [something quite common when overthinking things, when cause-and-effect get blundered together, and real-time event-focus gets confused with Outside Cosmic Observer-type perspective [which is almost always a confusion-generating error as it boggles up time and leads to magical backwards thoughts].

Oh, well... translating.... The only Time is NOW. It's all we free choosers have, and it sets the stage for those choices. The fact that they are free by definition must mean that we could choose more than one way. It is only THEN that the state of the NOW changes due to consequences --- i.e. it is WE who have created the newer reality and whatever that new created state says now about the state of our soul. For almost all situations, the free choosers will have more NOWs within which to choose the better or the poorer path. And that should tell us something.

The something is that the "good" and the "correct" is not a monolithic inflexible STATE. You are not either GOOD or BAD. You are in fact hopelessly in between. And that is why the only Just God is a Loving, Forgiving God. To put it another way: God has SLACK IN THE SYSTEM. {THANKS BE TO YOU, LORD!!} If it was one strike and you're out, there would be no winning pathwalkers --- well, Mary maybe. ... a pretty lonely Heaven for a God who made the whole Universe in hopes of Love. Whoever that author is seems to be getting into a Cosmic Observer mode, violating the essential importance of the NOW in time, and viewing Good and Bad as monolithic absolutes. ALL wrong.

========================================================================

Whiskey's second conundrum is far dicier. He knows that I as a very radical Catholic [in some ways] reject Augustine's interpretation of "Original Sin", translating it instead as a transformation of humanity from an animal-like pre-human condition [sinless --- lacking the knowledge of Good vs Evil that is REQUIRED to make a choice for sin possible] to a state where that "knowledge"/understanding DOES make such choices [and sins] possible. This has to do with the freedom-to-choose of advanced intelligences and not the Universe as a Whole. This Universe is the Big Stage upon which God allows free choice to play out, and not Good or Bad or "fallen" in itself at all [I in fact cannot conceive or any rational believable model of what the term a "fallen universe" could mean --- like turning the whole universe into one big anthropomorphized entity --- something that I don't believe in, and do not think that Teilhard de Chardin felt we were evolving towards either].

But, I feel that my theological worldview is much simpler than Augustine [or many centuries of philosophical awkward dancing to try to live with that bent-out-of-shape interpretation of the Garden story ,which is POETRY afterall] has forced upon us. My view is just this: God makes a Universe which can evolve advanced life forms. It operates with a subtle freedom based foundation so that not everything is predetermined. With the combining of the evolved physical body with the soul, this freedom makes true "better vs worse" choices possible. We individual choosers then make our own ways NOW after NOW, constantly producing Love acts or Acts of disharmony and isolation. Embedded in this system are subtle contacts with the Deity [Nature's awesome wholeness, Meditation's quiet voice of the Spirit, the communion of person-to-person care and affection]. These things give guidance towards choosing Love.

But why did Jesus come at all? Augustine's colossal error was dreamt up entirely to rationalize this as a sort of mechanical/logical necessity. After all those centuries, we needed "redeeming" from a myth story concept about eating apples --- kind of stunning that so absolute "much" would be made out of just that... but Augustine was a hard man full of redeeming fire. But was Jesus a Redeemer, and if so what from? Jesus doesn't call himself a Redeemer, he says that he has come so that we may have Life and have it more abundantly --- and what is that? It's a life of Love and not inward-turned self-orientation and isolation. Life is connection not rejection. And how was He going to do this service for us? "I come not to destroy/eliminate/reject the Old Law but to perfect/better/clarify it". And the New Laws are the Love Laws to be demonstrated by the Beatitudes, the Good Works of Love. If He's redeeming us, it's a "redemption" from a bunch of "don't do these" to a bunch of "please DO these others".

Reflecting, I have no idea if I've even addressed the "fallen anything" issue, as it is so bizarre to me in a universe where a Loving God HAD to have created every fully free intellect/soul with a just chance at producing Love [and favor] in his eyes, so that the "essentially fallen" concept makes for mind-boggling nonsense. Hey, we're evolved humans... come complete with Darwinist-fight-to-survive instincts right off the evolutionary assembly line. THAT's our problem, not that the first Sweetheart ate an apple. The Trinity has been subtly guiding us through those difficulties since day one. Jesus finally came down to make it all up-close-and-personal and with a full clear message of God-level wisdom. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR! YOU ALL HAVE IT IN YOU TO DO SO!!

Thank you, Jesus, God, Ultimate Lover for that.
 

Whiskeyjack

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[I in fact cannot conceive or any rational believable model of what the term a "fallen universe" could mean --- like turning the whole universe into one big anthropomorphized entity --- something that I don't believe in, and do not think that Teilhard de Chardin felt we were evolving towards either]

For those interested, Chardin was a fascinating and brilliant man:

Teilhard de Chardin has two comprehensive works. The first, The Phenomenon of Man, sets forth a sweeping account of the unfolding of the cosmos and the evolution of matter to humanity to ultimately a reunion with Christ. Chardin abandoned literal interpretations of creation in the Book of Genesis in favor of allegorical and theological interpretations.

In his posthumously published book, The Phenomenon of Man, Teilhard writes of the unfolding of the material cosmos, from primordial particles to the development of life, human beings and the noosphere, and finally to his vision of the Omega Point in the future, which is "pulling" all creation towards it. He was a leading proponent of orthogenesis, the idea that evolution occurs in a directional, goal-driven way, argued in terms that today go under the banner of convergent evolution. Teilhard argued in Darwinian terms with respect to biology, and supported the synthetic model of evolution, but argued in Lamarckian terms for the development of culture, primarily through the vehicle of education.

Teilhard makes sense of the universe by its evolutionary process. He interprets complexity as the axis of evolution of matter into a geosphere, a biosphere, into consciousness (in man), and then to supreme consciousness (the Omega Point.)

Teilhard's life work was predicated on the conviction that human spiritual development is moved by the same universal laws as material development. He wrote, "...everything is the sum of the past" and "...nothing is comprehensible except through its history. 'Nature' is the equivalent of 'becoming', self-creation: this is the view to which experience irresistibly leads us. ... There is nothing, not even the human soul, the highest spiritual manifestation we know of, that does not come within this universal law." There is no doubt that The Phenomenon of Man represents Teilhard's attempt at reconciling his religious faith with his academic interests as a paleontologist. One particularly poignant observation in Teilhard's book entails the notion that evolution is becoming an increasingly optional process. Teilhard points to the societal problems of isolation and marginalization as huge inhibitors of evolution, especially since evolution requires a unification of consciousness. He states that "no evolutionary future awaits anyone except in association with everyone else." Teilhard argued that the human condition necessarily leads to the psychic unity of humankind, though he stressed that this unity can only be voluntary; this voluntary psychic unity he termed "unanimization." Teilhard also states that "evolution is an ascent toward consciousness", giving encephalization as an example of early stages, and therefore, signifies a continuous upsurge toward the Omega Point, which for all intents and purposes, is God.

Our century is probably more religious than any other. How could it fail to be, with such problems to be solved? The only trouble is that it has not yet found a God it can adore.

When I was in high school, I recall learning that he had been censored as a heretic. But his work has recently received strong endorsements from Popes JPII and Benedict XVI.
 
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Old Man Mike

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Yes, it is true that Teilhard was censored by Catholic churchmen [essentially misinformed or mini-brained morons] after his books began to gain popularity in an intellectual world starving for an intelligent connection between the growing meme of cosmic evolution and Spirituality. Instead of welcoming his uniquely creative insights, the morons read his concepts as dangerous Pantheism [some New Age Morons did too] and would have burnt the whole lot if they could.

What their minds were too biased to see/read was that Teilhard was reminding them and us that this was IN FACT a CREATION, with a Creator behind it all, and that this Creator had to maintain constant Willful Presence to maintain that Universe's existence [from falling back into chaos --- think of all particles dissipating back into mini-black hole chaos]. This intimate association with His creation was not only charming but necessary, AND it was not pantheistic. The Universe, though constantly maintained by God's Will particle-by-particle, universal law-by-universal law, was NOT God. This sort of theology is phrased as Panentheistic --- God and Creation being intimately present, but God being the Eternal Being and this world His Willed Construction.

I imagine that Teilhard was stunned at the bonehead misinterpretation of his writings, as what he wanted to do was paint a picture of Cosmic History, the Creation evolving through time towards greater layers of connectivity/Love in concert with the Sustainer's Master Hoped-For Dream.
 
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