The Jameis Winston Investigation Thread

[BleedBlueGold]

well the question asked was do I WANT him to play vs ND. Yes, I do. Do I think he should play vs anyone. No, I don't.

 

[connor_in]

I agree with TheChosen1 and Wooly. Basically I don't care if it us playing FSU this weekend or UCF or Yale...JW has done more than enough to warrant being held out and investigated to some conclusion. Per the NYT article and other incidents reported, they delays in getting to the bottom of things have been extrordinary and should come to an end.

I get the metality of wanting to be the best by beating the best. I know if he doesn't play and we win there are people who will say that we wouldn't have if JW had played. But by the same token, those same people won't say ND would've won if Russell was back there and DD and IW played. People will say all kinds of things to justify themselves afterward. It would have been a different ending if...they would have called an obvious hold, player X wasn't hurt, the ref had used his left foot for the mark instead of his right. Those don't bother me, because those show up all the time. Heck, we shut out scUM and they had some hardcore fans coming up with reasons that if changed, they would have won. Screw 'em I say. Follow the rules the way you are supposed to and act accordingly and let the chips fall as they may.

 

[IrishLion]

Why does any of that matter if we win? Who cares what voters say if they vote us in? Losing the game because of Winston may cost us a playoff spot. But winning because of Winston costs us nothing.

Ethically, morally and selfishly... I want Winston gone. In my opinion, he most likely is a criminal on a high level and possibly even a rapist. In fairness, he deserves to be at least fairly examined. Not because of football, but because anyone with his rap sheet of offenses should be seriously investigated for the public good.

Well, I'd prefer ND to deliver an epic beatdown before the legal/school hammer fall on him. It would be poetic justice. That's my not-serious-but-kinda-serious reasoning, as shared in my edited post.

What I should have also included in my initial post is that beating FSU with Winston will look better in the eyes of the committee if ND drops a later game and finishes with one loss, and is fighting for a 4-seed with other one or two loss teams.

If Winston doesn't play, and god forbid ND still finds a way to lose, you can kiss goodbye to playoff hopes.

 

[phgreek]

I want him to play. Without him, a W doesn't mean much. It removes another team, and ND slides up...great. But in terms of a quality W...meh.

While I think it is wrong on the part of FSU to let him play, FSU is, was, and always will be a bad place for students to try and co-exist with student-athletes

...reminds me of the irish and chinese immigrants who built the rail system...

"what.....we've still got men in the tunnel...blow it anyway, we have a date with destiny in Promontory"

...to be a student at FSU means you are expendable when weighed against the football equivalent of "Promontory", the National Championship.

FSU, where integrity goes to die.

 

[woolybug25]

I want him to play. Without him, a W doesn't mean much. It removes another team, and ND slides up...great. But in terms of a quality W...meh.

Totally disagree. Everyone is acting like a Winstonless FSU victory will be looked just the same as a Syracuse victory. It wont be. It is a top 5 victory against a team, regardless of our game, will most likely win the ACC. The "it wont mean the same" arguments aren't really logical, as it simply isn't true. I don't care if they suspend FSU's top 5 players... the victory is still a win. The only downside to the game is if we lose, period.

 

[Cackalacky]

I want him to play. Without him, a W doesn't mean much. It removes another team, and ND slides up...great. But in terms of a quality W...meh.

While I think it is wrong on the part of FSU to let him play, FSU is, was, and always will be a bad place for students to try and co-exist with student-athletes

...reminds me of the irish and chinese immigrants who built the rail system...

"what.....we've still got men in the tunnel...blow it anyway, we have a date with destiny in Promontory"

...to be a student at FSU means you are expendable when weighed against the football equivalent of "Promontory", the National Championship.

FSU, where integrity goes to die.

 

[koonja]

The way I see it, if we're not good enough to play them with him, I'd rather know now and save us the embarassment in the playoffs.

Sometimes you have to lay all your cards down and see what you're made of. This is that game IMO.

We've done everything right. They've done everything wrong. They're at home. We are ND. The football Gods might help us on this one, it only feels right.

 

[woolybug25]

Well, I'd prefer ND to deliver an epic beatdown before the legal/school hammer fall on him. It would be poetic justice. That's my not-serious-but-kinda-serious reasoning, as shared in my edited post.

What I should have also included in my initial post is that beating FSU with Winston will look better in the eyes of the committee if ND drops a later game and finishes with one loss, and is fighting for a 4-seed with other one or two loss teams.

If Winston doesn't play, and god forbid ND still finds a way to lose, you can kiss goodbye to playoff hopes.

I guess I simply don't understand the logic of your post. If we lose to a Winstonless FSU, we probably don't deserve a playoff spot either way. So how does that even matter? There is a whole lot of "what if's" in the Play Winston crowd right now. The simple answer is that a loss in this game matters. Regardless of who the QB is and a win keeps us undefeated. It's a pretty simple argument that I think everyone is thinking too deeply on.

 

[woolybug25]

The way I see it, if we're not good enough to play them with him, I'd rather know now and save us the embarassment in the playoffs.

Sometimes you have to lay all your cards down and see what you're made of. This is that game IMO.

We've done everything right. They've done everything wrong. They're at home. We are ND. The football Gods might help us on this one, it only feels right.

Like we did against OU in '12? It sure showed that we could compete with Bama...

 

[koonja]

Like we did against OU in '12? It sure showed that we could compete with Bama...

This FSU team is significantly better than that Oklahoma team.

 

[IrishLion]

The way I see it, if we're not good enough to play them with him, I'd rather know now and save us the embarassment in the playoffs.

Sometimes you have to lay all your cards down and see what you're made of. This is that game IMO.

We've done everything right. They've done everything wrong. They're at home. We are ND. The football Gods might help us on this one, it only feels right.

This is another good reason. The nation hasn't seen ND face a team this good since the Bama game in '12. I'd rather find out ASAP if ND can hang, than to potentially see the worst happen in the playoffs.

There is another debate to be had about the merits of "not making the playoffs" vs "making the playoffs and getting beat badly," but that's a different thread haha.

 

[gkIrish]

Those of you that feel like beating FSU without Jameis doesn't mean much are extremely crazy and need to stop watching ESPN or whatever else brainwashes you.

 

[Bubbles]

While I would never wish an injury on anyone (even this gopping bag of dicks), if he doesn't play that removes the possibility, and that makes me a bit sad.

Is it ok to wish for an injury to his ego?

 

[koonja]

Those of you that feel like beating FSU without Jameis doesn't mean much are extremely crazy and need to stop watching ESPN or whatever else brainwashes you.

And if you think when people say 'Well ND beat FSU', the first response isn't 'yeah, against the 3rd string QB and without Jameis Winston', you straight trippin homie.

 

[woolybug25]

This FSU team is significantly better than that Oklahoma team.

I didn't say they weren't. But that was the premise of the OU victory, the fact that "we showed we belonged", when in fact they weren't as good as we thought they were. In fact, FSU is similar in that they probably aren't as good as people think either.

Either way, we have a playoff now. Why does "proving you belong" matter? Hell, you might not even have to play the best team in the championship. They could get knocked off before you even get that far. Look at every single playoff format sport out there. How often does the #1 team in the regular season roll to a championship? Far less than BCS era college football.

Keep Winning.... that's all that matters.

 

[IrishLion]

I guess I simply don't understand the logic of your post. If we lose to a Winstonless FSU, we probably don't deserve a playoff spot either way. So how does that even matter? There is a whole lot of "what if's" in the Play Winston crowd right now. The simple answer is that a loss in this game matters. Regardless of who the QB is and a win keeps us undefeated. It's a pretty simple argument that I think everyone is thinking too deeply on.

I guess I put more weight on outside perception than you do.

If Winston plays and ND loses, a one-loss ND might still have a shot in the playoffs.

If Winston does NOT play and ND loses, I think it's an auto elimination, as you said.

Until we know how the committee operates and see their first round of decisions, I'd rather ND have the strongest resume possible, and that means FSU having Winston available.

 

[Emcee77]

I guess I simply don't understand the logic of your post. If we lose to a Winstonless FSU, we probably don't deserve a playoff spot either way. So how does that even matter? There is a whole lot of "what if's" in the Play Winston crowd right now. The simple answer is that a loss in this game matters. Regardless of who the QB is and a win keeps us undefeated. It's a pretty simple argument that I think everyone is thinking too deeply on.

Yeah, I think that's a good point. Do we really need to beat a Winston-led FSU to get into the playoff? I doubt it. If we finish the season undefeated, even if Winston doesn't play against us, we'll be in. The strategic ND fan perspective on this is, hope Winston doesn't play, which gives us the best chance at a W.

But there are other perspectives.

The selfish ND fanboy perspective is, I want Winston to play so that I can watch ND beat the shit out of a number 1 team led by a Heisman trophy winner and brag to my friends about it. There is a LOT to be said for this perspective. A part of me really wants Winston to play so I can walk even taller and talk even louder about college football.

Then there is the objective college football fan perspective. From this perspective, the value is respect for the integrity of the institution of NCAA football, and allowing Winston to play shows the opposite of that; it makes a mockery of NCAA football. Someday, college football players may be able to sign autographs for private dealers within the NCAA rules. But that day ain't here yet. Play by the rules, or sit.

All these different perspectives are having a knock-down-drag-out battle royale for supremacy in old MC's brain.

 

[EddytoNow]

Well, I'd prefer ND to deliver an epic beatdown before the legal/school hammer fall on him. It would be poetic justice. That's my not-serious-but-kinda-serious reasoning, as shared in my edited post.

What I should have also included in my initial post is that beating FSU with Winston will look better in the eyes of the committee if ND drops a later game and finishes with one loss, and is fighting for a 4-seed with other one or two loss teams.

If Winston doesn't play, and god forbid ND still finds a way to lose, you can kiss goodbye to playoff hopes.

The reality is that Notre Dame must remain unbeaten to maintain any hope of making the play-offs. If we lose to anyone, we are toast as far as the play-offs are concerned. There are a host of one-loss or potential one-loss teams that would be voted into the play-offs before Notre Dame. The beat down by Alabama in 2012 is still fresh in the selection committee's mind. If we lose to anyone, we won't be making the play-offs this year.

 

[IrishLion]

Those of you that feel like beating FSU without Jameis doesn't mean much are extremely crazy and need to stop watching ESPN or whatever else brainwashes you.

On the contrary, I still think it would be an outstanding victory and a solid resume builder, considering the talent they have.

But I'm not the one deciding the playoff. The committee's perception is what worries me.

 

[woolybug25]

And if you think when people say 'Well ND beat FSU', the first response isn't 'yeah, against the 3rd string QB and without Jameis Winston', you are crazy.

How? Clemson couldn't do it. Also... who gives a f*ck? If we win out, we are in. Simple as that.

I think you have years of mental anguish of hearing anti ND talk that is leading you to somehow believe that a close loss to a Winston led FSU team is good enough. It's not.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I have yet to read one valid reason backing up a Yes vote that isn't selfishly centered around a better matchup. Can't you see that is what's entirely wrong with this situation? Prime matchups, money, winning, etc are all being prioritized ahead of what is morally right. This duechenozzle has gotten away with so much and is being criminally investigated, yet people still want to see him on the field because he's that good at football and a victory for ND supposedly makes them more of a legitimate contender. What's wrong with that picture?

 

[Ndaccountant]

Can someone explain to me what Title IX has to do with anything? I presume it wasn't legal to rape women and cover it up prior to 1972.

This really is something that is actually relatively new. VP Biden in 2011 announced new guidance on sexual assault implications to Title IX. As you know, Title IX is about fighting discrimination and the act views sexual assault/harassment as creating a hostile environment (meaning, the person assaulted or harassed cannot benefit equally from the programs offered by the University) and a form of discrimination.

Once the university is made aware, or should reasonably know, that an assault has occurred, they are required to investigate and take immediate action by eliminating the harassment, prevent its recurrence and address its effects.

Where this gets really dicey for FSU is that there is a distinct difference between criminal assault and what Title IX requires. Sexual harassment under Title IX can occur even when the police do not press charges. The new 2011 rules/guidance makes it clear that institutions must resolve Title IX disciplinary matters if it is more likely than not that sexual harassment or violence occurred. So, “beyond a reasonable doubt” is not relevant.

 

[woolybug25]

I guess I put more weight on outside perception than you do.

If Winston plays and ND loses, a one-loss ND might still have a shot in the playoffs.

If Winston does NOT play and ND loses, I think it's an auto elimination, as you said.

Until we know how the committee operates and see their first round of decisions, I'd rather ND have the strongest resume possible, and that means FSU having Winston available.

The strongest resume possible is an undefeated one. The easiest path to that is NOT having Winston available.

This is what I am simply not getting. If we are undefeated, it simply doesn't matter if Winston played or not. The resume doesn't change regardless of if he plays if we are undefeated. We win out, we're in.

 

[koonja]

How? Clemson couldn't do it. Also... who gives a f*ck? If we win out, we are in. Simple as that.

I think you have years of mental anguish of hearing anti ND talk that is leading you to somehow believe that a close loss to a Winston led FSU team is good enough. It's not.

We've never won a BCS game or even a big game since I was like 10. I want ND to have a chance to beat someone at their best, and I don't want to back into anything at this point. I know it's not the most logical based on making the playoffs, but that's not my point. I want ND to prove to the masses that they are for real, and I don't want the biggest built in excuse possible to be tagged to this game everytime it's mentioned.

And yes, I absolutely believe a close loss to FSU and winning out puts us in the playoffs. All my vbucks on it, come get them.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I have yet to read one valid reason backing up a Yes vote that isn't selfishly centered around a better matchup. Can't you see that is what's entirely wrong with this situation? Prime matchups, money, winning, etc are all being prioritized ahead of what is morally right. This duechenozzle has gotten away with so much and is being criminally investigated, yet people still want to see him on the field because he's that good at football and a victory for ND supposedly makes them more of a legitimate contender. What's wrong with that picture?

If that's the question asked, then the answer is certainly going to be nearly unanimous so a poll wouldn't be very interesting. I don't think anybody answering with a yes vote is speaking to the ethical matters at hand for FSU.

 

[Booslum31]

We've never won a BCS game or even a big game since I was like 10. I want ND to have a chance to beat someone at their best, and I don't want to back into anything at this point. I know it's not the most logical based on making the playoffs, but that's not my point. I want ND to prove to the masses that they are for real, and I don't want the biggest built in excuse possible to be tagged to this game everytime it's mentioned.

And yes, I absolutely believe a close loss to FSU and winning out puts us in the playoffs. All my vbucks on it, come get them.

I agree with you Koon. But it looks like your Vbucks are just a rounding error to Woolybug.

 

[gkIrish]

On the contrary, I still think it would be an outstanding victory and a solid resume builder, considering the talent they have.

But I'm not the one deciding the playoff. The committee's perception is what worries me.

And if you think when people say 'Well ND beat FSU', the first response isn't 'yeah, against the 3rd string QB and without Jameis Winston', you straight trippin homie.

There is 0% chance ND is left out of the playoff if we are 12-0. Who cares what your friends or the talking heads at BSPN say to get ratings?

You can't win a playoff game unless you are in it.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

If that's the question asked, then the answer is certainly going to be nearly unanimous so a poll wouldn't be very interesting. I don't think anybody answering with a yes vote is speaking to the ethical matters at hand for FSU.

It's up to the individual how they interpret the question and provide a vote. Most of the Yes voters are putting ethical matters second to winning the big game. To each their own. But it drives home my point. People, some ND fans included, want to see this kid play regardless of what he's done (and what he's allegedly done). I have a problem with that.

 

[koonja]

There is 0% chance ND is left out of the playoff if we are 12-0. Who cares what your friends or the talking heads at BSPN say to get ratings?

You can't win a playoff game unless you are in it.

If you guys think my argument is soley based on getting into the playoffs, then you won't get my point, so agree to disagree. Your argument is all based on playoffs, so you are correct. Mine is not.

And you're discounting the fact that in your scenario, it could hurt us that Winston doesn't play. What if we face their true frosh and get beat? It'd probably be better for the playoffs if we lost and Winston was playing, provided we don't get thrashed because of him. But that's unlikely and not my point, just saying.

 

[Blaise]

We've never won a BCS game or even a big game since I was like 10. I want ND to have a chance to beat someone at their best, and I don't want to back into anything at this point. I know it's not the most logical based on making the playoffs, but that's not my point. I want ND to prove to the masses that they are for real, and I don't want the biggest built in excuse possible to be tagged to this game everytime it's mentioned.

And yes, I absolutely believe a close loss to FSU and winning out puts us in the playoffs. All my vbucks on it, come get them.

You can show the World how good ND is when they Beat Miss St in the first Rd of the playoffs.... I'm all about going 12-0... I hope the starting Qb's of every team we play rest of year gets suspended