Superconferences & Realignment

[GoldenIsThyFame]

 

[ACamp1900]

In all sports... if the ACC as is holds together I still like the ACC... was nice to hear Aaron Taylor second that yesterday... In terms of the money, I would take the leap and think if ND jumped on board the money in the ACC might improve/be re-worked as well... who knows...

time will tell obviously.

 

[Irish YJ]

Create our own Conference.... The AEC (American Elite)

Pipe dream, but while we're all speculating, guessing, and wishing, here's my wish....

ND
TX
UNC
Duke
Georgia Tech

Plus 5 of the following. Two divisions, 5 or 6 conf (including playoff) game, the rest OOC.

Clemson
BC
FSU
UConn
Louisville
W. Virginia
South Florida
BYU
TCU
Hawaii

At the end of the day, nothing will happen....

 

[ND NYC]

while were speculating how about a conf that gives us a pretty good mix of football, basketball and coverage into the south and into Florida as well:

North Division:
ND
BC
PITT
SYRACUSE
VT
RUTGERS
NAVY
UCONN

South Division:
MIAMI
FSU
DUKE
UNC
TX
BAYLOR
KANSAS
LOUISVILLE

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

This is almost literally much ado about nothing. The thing that is being forgotten here is this - the playoff barrier has been breached. It WILL expand beyond 4 teams. I know they are saying now they will protect it so it doesn't happen, yada yada.

The reality is that it will make huge bank, and will expand, my guess would be in less than 10 years. When its 8 teams, or more, there's no real need to limit to 4 conferences, even if you had the silly conference champions only stipulation. The ADs know all of this. It won't be spoken of, but its on all their minds, and if they are positioning for anything, its for the next wave of TV contracts, not so much who specifically is in what conference. Once the Big 12 gets back to 12 teams, all the "smoke" will be over.

We could very well move the olympic sports if the Big East implodes, but I just don't see anything that will cause football to HAVE to join any conference. Once the playoff expands past 4, this conversation will all seem silly in retrospect.

 

[ND NYC]

This is almost literally much ado about nothing. The thing that is being forgotten here is this - the playoff barrier has been breached. It WILL expand beyond 4 teams. I know they are saying now they will protect it so it doesn't happen, yada yada.

The reality is that it will make huge bank, and will expand, my guess would be in less than 10 years. When its 8 teams, or more, there's no real need to limit to 4 conferences, even if you had the silly conference champions only stipulation. The ADs know all of this. It won't be spoken of, but its on all their minds, and if they are positioning for anything, its for the next wave of TV contracts, not so much who specifically is in what conference. Once the Big 12 gets back to 12 teams, all the "smoke" will be over.

We could very well move the olympic sports if the Big East implodes, but I just don't see anything that will cause football to HAVE to join any conference. Once the playoff expands past 4, this conversation will all seem silly in retrospect.

some are saying the only reason it has been breached is b/c it is in fact only 4 teams , a fottbal foinal four that could keep the bowl system in place etc (not the 8 or more etc you profess to be "iminent" within 10 yrs). no school will hold off jumping in the game, and getting in the new conf with the HOPE, HUNCH that an 8+ team playoff is coming.
are you saying for ND not join a conf b/c over time at some pioint in future their will be a scenario where we wouldnt have to be in a conf to compete for an NC?

 

[Wolverine1997]

B1G adds BC, ND, Duke and NC.

My GOD, this conference would a monster in basketball. You would have over half of it making it into the tourney.

My only concern with that is you would only be adding one big name in football.

ND has the name.
BC had a good run in the later 2000s but is crap now
NC had a good two years and now is back to being mediocre
And Washtenaw Community College could beat duke.

The thing is, you would expand the BTN into North Carolina and Boston. Two huge markets. Especially with Duke & ND alums all over the nation would pay for the BTN (if they don't have it for free in their cable lineup) and BTNDN (computer based network for "non-revenue" sports).

 

[Old Man Mike]

If you added VTech instead of BC you'd solve your problems. VT is not tied to VA in any way to my understanding. VA is just a nuisance to VT. UNC will probably come back to being a pretty good football team. The advantage of what you are proposing as to current ACC teams, is that the [probably] fifth or sixth best high school recruiting area in the country is the VA/NC coastal area --- major league speed and athleticism. ND, Michigan, and many other "poachers" are already actively there. But that B1G plan needs Tech I think to keep the entire bottom half of the B1G from being football crap.



p.s. what I actually think will happen is that the Big 12 will expand, but others will not right away. The SEC powers will try to ram their play-off idea through, but the other big four conferences will not see the terrain clearly enough yet to back this. Also, those other conferences know that the SEC is running an essentially semi-pro, classroom-optional NFL training ground and many of their own institutions, presidents & faculty on down, don't want to sell completely out. Jack Swarbrick will therefore have another harried year or two trying to read tea leaves, and NDs status quo will be just that. The ACC and Big East MIGHT coalesce as a football conference sometime, just out of attrition, but unless Miami and VT bolt, something will still be there. Both the B1G and the Big 12 will wait on ND, but ND football won't join anything until revenues become clearer and an evolutionary TV/internet plan is in place. As the Big East and the ACC shake football-wise, scheduling should be less a problem than ever. Something akin to the alternate organization present in college hockey could always emerge in any of the "other" sports, and in many ways might be beneficial [Lax particularly comes to mind, but soccer too]. We scheduled all these things before there even was a Big East conference, and alliances could arise again.

 

[tadman95]

Duke and UNC leaving the ACC.... This is getting a little crazy, not going to happen.

 

[Wolverine1997]

Duke and UNC leaving the ACC.... This is getting a little crazy, not going to happen.

If the titanic hits the iceberg, I don't think Duke and NC are going to stay on the sinking ship and smile. Now, this is if the Big 12 raids the ACC and the SEC scoops up a few (I'm thinking VT and NC State).

I think the B1G would be a perfect fit for them. Great academics at both schools. Add ND to the package, and you just hit a walkoff grand slam.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Duke and UNC leaving the ACC.... This is getting a little crazy, not going to happen.

Sometimes I think people fail to grasp that there might not BE an ACC or a Big East in a few years. This isn't a shot at you, but I think a lot of people have a hard time envisioning how drastic of a shakeup could be coming.

 

[phork]

Honestly I'd rather Notre Dame be in the Big Ten without NBC than be in the Big 12 with NBC.

Just the difference in schedules alone makes the move horrible. You are effectively hitting the reset button on Notre Dame's tradition. What rivals to you keep if you go to the Big 12? USC and Navy?

If Notre Dame went to a 14-team Big Ten, and Pittsburgh was the other team to join with them...

Six games against division opponents (Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, Pittsburgh)
Two games against rotating division
Two annual OOC rivals (Navy, USC)
Two OOC games.

It's not a bad setup. Notre Dame would only have to drop Stanford and Boston College.

As for NBC, you could easily mandate that if the Notre Dame (home) game isn't nationally covered on ESPN/ABC, then it must be nationally covered by the BTN. Problem solved. And in twenty years, when the vast majority of televisions will receive their video from an internet stream instead of a cable company, this will all be moot and everyone's game will be national every week.

Then you have to add in that Notre Dame wants to become a preeminent research university, and one of the best ways to do that would be to join the CIC. No other conference offers, academically, what the Big Ten does.

For me, it's either the Big Ten or the ACC. I would be very disappointed with the Big 12.

You need to throw in the home & homes the BIG now has an agreement with the Pac12.

B1G adds BC, ND, Duke and NC.

My GOD, this conference would a monster in basketball. You would have over half of it making it into the tourney.

My only concern with that is you would only be adding one big name in football.

ND has the name.
BC had a good run in the later 2000s but is crap now
NC had a good two years and now is back to being mediocre
And Washtenaw Community College could beat duke.

The thing is, you would expand the BTN into North Carolina and Boston. Two huge markets. Especially with Duke & ND alums all over the nation would pay for the BTN (if they don't have it for free in their cable lineup) and BTNDN (computer based network for "non-revenue" sports).

And not one makes the Final Four...

Sometimes I think people fail to grasp that there might not BE an ACC or a Big East in a few years. This isn't a shot at you, but I think a lot of people have a hard time envisioning how drastic of a shakeup could be coming.

Bingo.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

some are saying the only reason it has been breached is b/c it is in fact only 4 teams , a fottbal foinal four that could keep the bowl system in place etc (not the 8 or more etc you profess to be "iminent" within 10 yrs). no school will hold off jumping in the game, and getting in the new conf with the HOPE, HUNCH that an 8+ team playoff is coming.
are you saying for ND not join a conf b/c over time at some pioint in future their will be a scenario where we wouldnt have to be in a conf to compete for an NC?

Thats not exactly what I am saying. First, I don't agree with the premise that its some kind of hunch that the playoff won't expand. It will. I've heard the rhetoric that it will ONLY ever be four teams to protect this bullshit or that... Its all window dressing. 2 years ago they all said the BCS was perfect with a few tweaks and we'd never see a playoff. I'm telling you that it will expand, no doubt.

That said, that won't be the reason ND won't join a conference. What I am saying is in a few years, it will all be a moot point, simply because the playoff will have expanded before ND has to make any such choice.

 

[dshans]

Internal Server Error.

Test, Test, Test.

Que pasa?

I seem to be blocked from posting a response to another poster.

Is this a conspiracy?

"Rinse and repeat" is a self-serving ploy to sell more product. It's wasteful. It's also an effort to sell conditioner and other additives to replace the natural oils stripped by "over laundering."

 

[Old Man Mike]

dshans, what you do not yet realize is that the CIA has been controlling your computer for years. None of your posts ever get out there. Only on your own computer screen does there seem to be an active interchange of information between you and the outside world. You are experiment #47X3.

Please disregard this message.

Now back to our regular programming.... end of line.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

dshans, what you do not yet realize is that the CIA has been controlling your computer for years. None of your posts ever get out there. Only on your own computer screen does there seem to be an active interchange of information between you and the outside world. You are experiment #47X3.

Please disregard this message.

Now back to our regular programming.... end of line.

lol

 

[tadman95]

Sometimes I think people fail to grasp that there might not BE an ACC or a Big East in a few years. This isn't a shot at you, but I think a lot of people have a hard time envisioning how drastic of a shakeup could be coming.

None taken, I just don't see the demise of conferences because of of BCS football playoffs. I don't even believe it will come down to 4 conference champs making the playoffs with no other teams in the mix. Makes no sense to restrict the market like that.

 

[phork]

None taken, I just don't see the demise of conferences because of of BCS football playoffs. I don't even believe it will come down to 4 conference champs making the playoffs with no other teams in the mix. Makes no sense to restrict the market like that.

Yah because we'd all love to see the second place BIG team place for all the marbles.

 

[Buster Bluth]

You need to throw in the home & homes the BIG now has an agreement with the Pac12.

"Hey Big ten, we're willing to join if you axe that whole Pac-12/Big Ten agreement that you have..."

"Hey Big Ten, we really like that Pac-12/Big Ten agreement that you have...we're willing to join if you make an exception and let us play USC annually in that setup..."

They'd have a hard time turning down the first scenario, and a really hard time turning down the second one.

 

[tadman95]

Yah because we'd all love to see the second place BIG team place for all the marbles.

Never even implied that

 

[dshans]

dshans, what you do not yet realize is that the CIA has been controlling your computer for years. None of your posts ever get out there. Only on your own computer screen does there seem to be an active interchange of information between you and the outside world. You are experiment #47X3.

Please disregard this message.

Now back to our regular programming.... end of line.

Oh, bother! And here I thought I was the center of some universe.

Does the CIA really pay attention to a Pixar Table Lamp iMac used primarily to access Irish Envy?

So ... I'm not only hearing voices but also seeing phantom characters on a glowing screen. Dang. The voices are cheaper. No charge from Xcel.

Will I be able to get the results of experiment #47X3 through the FOI Act down the road?

 

[Wolverine1997]

"Hey Big ten, we're willing to join if you axe that whole Pac-12/Big Ten agreement that you have..."

"Hey Big Ten, we really like that Pac-12/Big Ten agreement that you have...we're willing to join if you make an exception and let us play USC annually in that setup..."

They'd have a hard time turning down the first scenario, and a really hard time turning down the second one.

The setup would probably be ND gets USC as a non-conference game they schedule on their own dime, and would also play an additional challenge game. The point of the challenge is to change things up every two years.

I would love to see USC come here, and I'm sure other schools like nebraska, wisconsin and those things in columbus would like to see them too.

 

[Rhode Irish]

None taken, I just don't see the demise of conferences because of of BCS football playoffs. I don't even believe it will come down to 4 conference champs making the playoffs with no other teams in the mix. Makes no sense to restrict the market like that.

You very well may be right. Neither of us have a crystal ball, and I wouldn't make odds on any of the potential scenarios. But at this point, I wouldn't rule anything out and everything seems on the table.

 

[tadman95]

You very well may be right. Neither of us have a crystal ball, and I wouldn't make odds on any of the potential scenarios. But at this point, I wouldn't rule anything out and everything seems on the table.

The really bad part to this is that this could go on for a long time and continually evolve and morph into perpetuity. TerryTate may have started what may end up being the longest running, highest post count thread to ever run on Irish Envy.

With that thought, I guess I'll go "rep" him. LOL

 

[Redbar]

Firstly, I think whatever system ends up being used to determine a national championship will probably include ND as an independent, so I highly doubt ND is joining a conference.

However, as a B1G fan, I clearly would be a huge fan of adding ND to to the B1G. To those of you who favor the B12, I have one question for you, how do trips to Ames, IA, Manhattan, KS, Lawrence, KS & two places in Oklahoma sound? Because you'd be playing in those places frequently if you joined the B12.

The big positive with the B1G (as has been alluded to above), is that you're playing in bigger cities (rather than the relative outposts) and in front of big crowds, which you wouldn't be for a number of the trips in the B12. Take a look at the stadiums in each conference by capacity:

1. Michigan Stadium - 109,901
2. Beaver Stadium - 106,572
3. Ohio Stadium - 102,329
4. Memorial Stadium - 81,067
5. Camp Randall Stadium - 80,321
6. Spartan Stadium - 75,005
7. Kinnick Stadium - 70,585
8. Ross-Ade Stadium - 62,500
9. Memorial Stadium, Champaign - 60,670
10. Memorial Stadium, Bloomington - 52,929
11. TCF Bank Stadium - 50,805
12. Ryan Field - 47,130

Big 12 Stadiums:

1. Darrell K Royal Stadium - 100,119
2. Gaylord Family Memorial Stadium - 82,112
3. Jones AT&T Stadium - 60,454
4. Boone Pickens Stadium - 60,218
5. Mountaineer Field - 60,000
6. Jack Trice Stadium - 55,000
7. Memorial Stadium - 50,071
8. Floyd Casey Stadium - 50,000
9. Bill Snyder Stadium - 50,000
10. Amon G. Carter Stadium - 44,358

The "bad" road trips (where you play in front of a low capacity crowd) in the B1G could be argued to be Minnesota (Minneapolis), Indiana (in your home state, near Indianapolis), & Chicago (where your largest alumni base is). I'm not saying that you would love every road trip in the B1G, but clearly it is a better option for road games than the present B12 - obviously depending on their expansion options, that could improve for them.

It's amazing how UT fans are trying to brainwash everyone into believing that, all of a sudden, the B12 is this perfectly harmonious conference that will never again experience any kind of upheaval from its members, when LESS THAN 12 months ago 4 of its most prominent members bolted for 3 other options (PAC, B1G, & SEC). Who was left? Schools who literally had no other option, plus Texas & Oklahoma. That is the conference ND wants to join? A conference full of leftovers? I get why FSU/Clemson want to join - they are stuck in basketball purgatory and have now way of getting out - plus FSU needs the cash, so I get that, but lets look at the history of Texas & conferences Texas is in: 1. SWC - dead in large part because of Texas' actions. 2. B12 - nearly died last summer, lost 4 of its most prominent members. ND doesn't make sense to me, they have a better option.

Conversely, the B1G is a conference that has been around since before the dawn of the 20th century (founded 1896) and has NEVER had a school leave in its entire history (well, except for the University of Chicago, who dropped their sports program, but they remain a member of the CIC). Further, ND has a long history of playing a number of B1G schools. Which sounds better to you: joining a conference full of members who have a history of hostility toward the conference they are in (B12 w/ the likes of Texas, OU, FSU, Clemson, Etc.) or joining a conference that has been around and stable since the dawn of time essentially?

I get the whole "national schedule" thing, but my opinion is, if the B1G could offer you 7 conference games instead of 8 in a 16 school conference, you could still have 5 non conference games to play a "national" schedule. If you have 5 OOC games scheduled, you are playing nearly have your schedule out of conference - schedule USC, Navy, Someone from Florida, & Texas - you've been everywhere around the country that way. The idea that the B1G would make ND a "regional" school is a misnomer IMO, as long as ND handles its OOC schedule properly.

What about your non revenue sports? Without any doubt, the B1G is a better fit there (most notably, in hockey & lacrosse), and if the B1G expanded to 16 with the remnants of the ACC - I could see UNC/UVA/Duke coming along with ND - those three schools have non revenue athletics that closely resemble ND's.

Finally - the 3rd tier TV rights excuse is a red herring - how many ND football games are going to get to tier 3 programming? I'd bet every single ND game each year goes tier 1 or 2. With tier 3, for ND, you are talking about airing basketball games & olympic sports primarily. I have ZERO doubt that a B1G w/ND makes way more TV revenue than the B12 does, so what are 3rd tier TV rights worth if you can get paid more by not having them?

Thanks!

I think you summed it up best with this:



I guess the way I look at it is, ND can have its cake & eat it too in this process - they can join a superior conference (B1G) & schedule as many "national" opponents as they want to with their 5 OOC games. Joining any conference damages the brand, but if ND has to, the B1G is the better option.

I'd hate to see ND go anywhere but the B1G - there is a lot of history there and it would be unfortunate to see it go away.

I have to agree with Rhode, those are two well thought out and articulated posts. I would hate to see us lose our independence, but your argument for the B1G is compelling.

 

[stlnd01]

Yah because we'd all love to see the second place BIG team place for all the marbles.

We watched the, what, third-place SEC team take home all the marbles this year, didn't we? And deservedly so.

The conference-champs only requirement makes no sense. More years than not it's going to shut out at least one of the four best teams in the country, and will cause far more outrage than it solves. There's just too much variation in scheduling and conference quality. Still don't get why the SEC or Pac 10, in particular, would agree to that setup. Which means ND (and anyone else) will still have a shot at the title.

To me, the best argument for us joining a conference is if scheduling becomes impossible in a superconference world. If nine conference games becomes the standard for the big boys, that might happen. But we're still a way from that.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The superconference movement is about concentrating wealth and power among the premier CFB programs, and maximizing post season revenue-- not necessarily about pitting the 4 top teams against each other.

The conference champion model would probably generate higher ratings since it would keep every major media market engaged for the semis. Perhaps most importantly, it would do away with the need for polls entirely. Lots of people hate the current system of polls, with its human error and frequently backward outcomes. The conference champion model is based entirely on record; far less opportunity for arbitrary bullsh!t.

 

[phork]

We watched the, what, third-place SEC team take home all the marbles this year, didn't we? And deservedly so.

The conference-champs only requirement makes no sense. More years than not it's going to shut out at least one of the four best teams in the country, and will cause far more outrage than it solves. There's just too much variation in scheduling and conference quality. Still don't get why the SEC or Pac 10, in particular, would agree to that setup. Which means ND (and anyone else) will still have a shot at the title.

To me, the best argument for us joining a conference is if scheduling becomes impossible in a superconference world. If nine conference games becomes the standard for the big boys, that might happen. But we're still a way from that.

Frankly any of the top3 teams in any conference could pull out a win in NC game, but if you don't outright win your conference you should have no chance at playing for all the marbles. This is also going with a lot of peoples ideas that a playoff will kill the meaning of regular season games. College football is unique in the fact that EVERY single game counts.

 

[stlnd01]

The conference champion model would probably generate higher ratings since it would keep every major media market engaged for the semis. Perhaps most importantly, it would do away with the need for polls entirely. Lots of people hate the current system of polls, with its human error and frequently backward outcomes. The conference champion model is based entirely on record; far less opportunity for arbitrary bullsh!t.

OK. But it would also cut by half the number of college football programs with any shot at the title. And - even though schools like Boise and Houston and pre-Big XII TCU never quite manage to win it all - a sizable chunk of the college football fan base enjoys having the mid-level-conference schools in the conversation. College sports is just egalitarian like that.

Also, the conference-champs-only playoff is hardly based "entirely on record." What happens when a three-loss SEC East winner knocks of an undefeated, top-ranked, SEC West champ in the conference title game. That stuff's gonna happen. All the time.

Was last year's South Carolina team really more deserving of a title shot than LSU or Alabama? Even if they'd beat LSU? Honestly, I think the polls get it right most of the time. And they give people something to talk about. Remember, the outrage comes loudest in October, before all the games get played, by the end of the season, it's usually the best teams at the top. And before you bring up last year's Okie State, they would clearly have made a four-team playoff.

 

[stlnd01]

Frankly any of the top3 teams in any conference could pull out a win in NC game, but if you don't outright win your conference you should have no chance at playing for all the marbles. This is also going with a lot of peoples ideas that a playoff will kill the meaning of regular season games. College football is unique in the fact that EVERY single game counts.

Alabama didn't "pull out a win." They were clearly one of the three best teams in the country the entire season last year. Only reason they weren't number one is because they lost an extremely close game to another of the three best teams. You really think Wisconsin was more deserving of a title shot?