Silly Season '13 (Coaching Changes)

[IrishJayhawk]

I think there's an argument to be made that tradition doesn't mean as much as it used to. That's not being short-sighted. It's arguing that the landscape of college football has fundamentally changed in this new media culture. An NBC contract, for example, doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to. Everyone is on TV all the time.

I think (hope) we're still in the "elite" category. I can see the argument though.

 

[Irish#1]

I think there's an argument to be made that tradition doesn't mean as much as it used to. That's not being short-sighted. It's arguing that the landscape of college football has fundamentally changed in this new media culture. An NBC contract, for example, doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to. Everyone is on TV all the time.

I think (hope) we're still in the "elite" category. I can see the argument though.

I agree with this, except only ND is on national TV every weekend.

 

[Irish#1]

Again, I just don't really see what this has to do at all with the state of the program or how desirable of a job it is. We're not power ranking how well a program is set up to win games or comparing how good/dominant teams are right now.

To the bolded, I think it is an absolute guarantee (assuming we're not thrown under the bus late in the game in a year like this where everyone is scrounging for a coach) that ND would easily be able to hire an A-list coach when Kelly leaves. Like I said pages ago, if Kelly wasn't recruiting how he's recruiting and didn't get this team to a national championship game last year, then this would be a Tier 1B job for a coach that is looking. But he did.

But the pay Kelly is getting now is very good. The pay assistants are getting is very good. The roster is getting stacked with talent, and will be very attractive to coaches. Are there some categories where ND trails behind some schools? Sure. Weather, nationwide recruiting, etc. Are there factors where Notre Dame is better than most schools in Tier 1? Absolutely yes to that as well. The end result is a very lucrative and attractive job for any coach.

I just really, really don't see how you can make a case that Notre Dame isn't a Tier 1A destination coaching job for someone as currently configured. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I never said they weren't. I only said that given your guidelines there was an argument for putting them at 1B. You are using a select set of criteria and by that I merely said that Nebraska and PSU are in that group IMO. You disagree and that's fine.

BTW.....You chastised Phork for being condescending, but you are doing the same thing. You don't have to get so defensive simply because some disagree.

 

[phork]

Phork---you say ND hasn't shown it can compete for a National Championship.

I'd argue that we were only one lucky break away from winning one last year. If KSU didn't lose to Baylor or if Ohio State chose to take their bowl ban in the previous season, we all know we would have beat either of those teams 8-9/10 times. Unfortunately we didn't get that lucky break and we got stuck playing Bama.

So now winning championships is the luck of the draw? Or did Bama get the lucky break and draw ND?

 

[gkIrish]

So now winning championships is the luck of the draw? Or did Bama get the lucky break and draw ND?

It's not that it's the luck of the draw but you do need luck to win a Natty. We were the 2nd best team in the country, no doubt in my mind. We had a chance to avoid playing the best but didn't work out that way.

 

[IrishLax]

I never said they weren't. I only said that given your guidelines there was an argument for putting them at 1B. You are using a select set of criteria and by that I merely said that Nebraska and PSU are in that group IMO. You disagree and that's fine.

BTW.....You chastised Phork for being condescending, but you are doing the same thing. You don't have to get so defensive simply because some disagree.

I didn't chastise phork for being condescending, I chastised him for what I considered a ridiculous and contradictory post.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I feel like we are overcomplicating things a bit here. The ND job is an elite job and the ND program is an elite program because people give a damn about it. How many Nebraska fans or Penn State fans are there outside of Nebraska and Pennsylvania? The reasons for that are many, but they include a lot of what is being discussed here. Tradition, recent success and resources all play a part.

Programs like Nebraska and Penn State and Tennessee have good, solid traditions. They aren't at the same level, historically, as ND or Michigan or USC or Alabama. They probably are better historically than Florida or FSU and possibly on par with Texas, but they don't have the same access to players necessary to compete in the modern CFB landscape as those programs. (You can look at that as either "recent success" or "access to players," but to me the two go hand in hand.) Penn State and Nebraska and Tennessee also have huge and loyal fan bases, bigger and better than Oregon's or Stanford's or even USC's.

Where you rank as a 1A or a 1B or a tier 2 program is about how you compare to other programs in those areas. You need to excel in at least one to be in the discussion as an elite program at any given time, and to be in the discussion as an elite program over the long haul you probably need to excel in two or three areas. I think there are somewhere between a handful and a dozen programs that can excel in two or three of those areas, and ND is one of them. Whether we have access to players is always going to be a concern because of location and the academics, but we have shown under Kelly (and even Weis) that we can recruit good athletes in modern college football. But I think the Penn State and Nebraska type programs rank very-good-but-not-great in all of those areas.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I feel like we are overcomplicating things a bit here. The ND job is an elite job and the ND program is an elite program because people give a damn about it. How many Nebraska fans or Penn State fans are there outside of Nebraska and Pennsylvania? The reasons for that are many, but they include a lot of what is being discussed here. Tradition, recent success and resources all play a part.

Programs like Nebraska and Penn State and Tennessee have good, solid traditions. They aren't at the same level, historically, as ND or Michigan or USC or Alabama. They probably are better historically than Florida or FSU and possibly on par with Texas, but they don't have the same access to players necessary to compete in the modern CFB landscape as those programs. (You can look at that as either "recent success" or "access to players," but to me the two go hand in hand.) Penn State and Nebraska and Tennessee also have huge and loyal fan bases, bigger and better than Oregon's or Stanford's or even USC's.

Where you rank as a 1A or a 1B or a tier 2 program is about how you compare to other programs in those areas. You need to excel in at least one to be in the discussion as an elite program at any given time, and to be in the discussion as an elite program over the long haul you probably need to excel in two or three areas. I think there are somewhere between a handful and a dozen programs that can excel in two or three of those areas, and ND is one of them. Whether we have access to players is always going to be a concern because of location and the academics, but we have shown under Kelly (and even Weis) that we can recruit good athletes in modern college football. But I think the Penn State and Nebraska type programs rank very-good-but-not-great in all of those areas.

I don't think you made it less complicated.

 

[Luckylucci]

I think there's an argument to be made that tradition doesn't mean as much as it used to. That's not being short-sighted. It's arguing that the landscape of college football has fundamentally changed in this new media culture. An NBC contract, for example, doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to. Everyone is on TV all the time.

I think (hope) we're still in the "elite" category. I can see the argument though.

Nyles Morgan after the AA game he mentioned in his interview that the NBC deal was one of the positives for choosing ND. It doesn't get more current than that. JuJu Smith has also mentioned it recently. Being on TV every week, nationally.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Nyles Morgan after the AA game he mentioned in his interview that the NBC deal was one of the positives for choosing ND. It doesn't get more current than that. JuJu Smith has also mentioned it recently. Being on TV every week, nationally.

Good point.

I still don't think it's the same draw that it used to be. It's like the Cubs and Braves with WGN and TNT. They were the only game on. Everyone watched those two teams. Now you can see everyone if you have the right TV package.

But I hope you're more right than I am.

 

[Rhode Irish]

The benefit of being on NBC is that everyone gets it. I guess you can find any team somewhere on some obscure cable channel or if you buy a special package, but being on broadcast TV is still a plus.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I don't think you made it less complicated.

Ha my post was originally two sentences, then I felt like it needed to be fleshed out a little and ... yada yada yada ... death to brevity.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

The benefit of being on NBC is that everyone gets it. I guess you can find any team somewhere on some obscure cable channel or if you buy a special package, but being on broadcast TV is still a plus.

I'll concede that it's better than other teams have. It's just not nearly the advantage that it used to be.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

i thought the PSU program was done for good after the JS scandal.
for a long time.
then, i saw that michigan game on TV this year and thought maybe, just maybe they can come back.
only time will tell.

They lost to IU this year.
In football.
By 20 points.

Let that sink in for a few minutes...

 

[stlnd01]

They lost to IU this year.
In football.
By 20 points.

Let that sink in for a few minutes...

This happens. IU was good. Penn State is down. Every program loses games they "shouldn't" now and then. But in terms of resources, access to talent, the sort of things that build a competitive program, there's no comparison between Penn State and Indiana.
Get the right coach to Penn State and an administration that'll support him and they're right there with Ohio State and Michigan atop the Big Ten once the sanctions are through.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

This happens. IU was good. Penn State is down. Every program loses games they "shouldn't" now and then. But in terms of resources, access to talent, the sort of things that build a competitive program, there's no comparison between Penn State and Indiana.
Get the right coach to Penn State and an administration that'll support him and they're right there with Ohio State and Michigan atop the Big Ten once the sanctions are through.

The scholarship losses haven't really affected them yet. They will.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Until the ghost of JoePa goes away, PSU will remain a second tier program. Aftyer reading the former coach's comments about it, it must be really difficult going in there and trying to change a culture that has existed for over a half century. The quicker the old guard realizes JoePa isn't running things anymore, the quicker they start moving forward.

 

[ulukinatme]

The scholarship losses haven't really affected them yet. They will.

This is a good point. USC's scholarship sanctions didn't really have an immediate impact on them. Then again, it's tough to discern how much of USC's struggles were due to Kiffin and how much can be attributed to depth. We haven't seen how far Penn State can fall yet I wager.

 

[NDohio]

Why did ND have such a hard time attracting elite level coaches ever since Lou left? The administration's incompetency? Or did the coaching fraternity not consider it an elite job?

Even BK wasn't considered an elite coach at his hiring. He was seen as an up and comer and fortunately he really wanted the ND job.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Why did ND have such a hard time attracting elite level coaches ever since Lou left? The administration's incompetency? Or did the coaching fraternity not consider it an elite job?

Even BK wasn't considered an elite coach at his hiring. He was seen as an up and comer and fortunately he really wanted the ND job.

Either BobD or OMM has a very good breakdown of this in another thread out here somewhere. Maybe others out here can point you to it.

 

[Cackalacky]

Why did ND have such a hard time attracting elite level coaches ever since Lou left? The administration's incompetency? Or did the coaching fraternity not consider it an elite job?

Even BK wasn't considered an elite coach at his hiring. He was seen as an up and comer and fortunately he really wanted the ND job.

I am sure there are lots of reasons why.

BGIF and others have spent much time discussing how people associated with the school get upity when the football program is doing well. There was a good discussion in another thread and it was a fascinating read starting with the exit of Holtz.

Currently it seems the Kelly has made some success in getting things changed (training table, assistant coach pay, etc.) but IDK how far that has actually progressed and on what comparison level that is with other 1A programs.

I don't believe ND is an elite coaching spot though. I think we will always have to hire from the lower tiers (as Lax laid them out, which is apparently the trend). IMO there is no way a 1A or 1B coach comes to ND due to how many "hurdles" there are, such as academic standards, inability to take JuCos, not being at 85 scholarship players in August....and that is fine with me. I will always be a ND fan and any kid who makes it through is ok in my book.

 

[Irish#1]

Why did ND have such a hard time attracting elite level coaches ever since Lou left? The administration's incompetency? Or did the coaching fraternity not consider it an elite job?

Even BK wasn't considered an elite coach at his hiring. He was seen as an up and comer and fortunately he really wanted the ND job.

The biggest part was the admin. When Lou left the "Lou" rule was rescinded. The elite coaches wanted the Lou rule put back in to help in recruiting. When they were told no, they would withdraw their name. Add to this the poor choices made for the HC position and that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Jenkins has helped get the program back on track. When he hired Jack and then Jack hired Kelly, you had folks willing to go to the admin and work to change things enough to get some kids who are marginal on the academic side.

 

[PerthDomer]

The point is no 1a program hires from another tier 1 program unless a coach is an alum of another school or something. Bamako got Sabah because he needed a home after the nfl experiment.

 

[Irish#1]

I feel like we are overcomplicating things a bit here. The ND job is an elite job and the ND program is an elite program because people give a damn about it. How many Nebraska fans or Penn State fans are there outside of Nebraska and Pennsylvania? The reasons for that are many, but they include a lot of what is being discussed here. Tradition, recent success and resources all play a part.

Programs like Nebraska and Penn State and Tennessee have good, solid traditions. They aren't at the same level, historically, as ND or Michigan or USC or Alabama. They probably are better historically than Florida or FSU and possibly on par with Texas, but they don't have the same access to players necessary to compete in the modern CFB landscape as those programs. (You can look at that as either "recent success" or "access to players," but to me the two go hand in hand.) Penn State and Nebraska and Tennessee also have huge and loyal fan bases, bigger and better than Oregon's or Stanford's or even USC's.

Where you rank as a 1A or a 1B or a tier 2 program is about how you compare to other programs in those areas. You need to excel in at least one to be in the discussion as an elite program at any given time, and to be in the discussion as an elite program over the long haul you probably need to excel in two or three areas. I think there are somewhere between a handful and a dozen programs that can excel in two or three of those areas, and ND is one of them. Whether we have access to players is always going to be a concern because of location and the academics, but we have shown under Kelly (and even Weis) that we can recruit good athletes in modern college football. But I think the Penn State and Nebraska type programs rank very-good-but-not-great in all of those areas.

This is where I disagree with you and a few others. Nebraska and PSU has a history of being good. Go back to the Devaney days at Nebraska. They kicked everyone's butt and when Osborn took over they didn't miss a beat. They found recruits and have a long history of being among the elite programs. When JoePa was in his heyday, PSU was always near the top.

To me, you have to look at the programs entire history when you classify schools into 1A, 1B, etc.. If you want to use just the last 10-15 years then that's fine, but then you need to remove tradition from the equation.

 

[NDohio]

I am sure there are lots of reasons why.

BGIF and others have spent much time discussing how people associated with the school get upity when the football program is doing well. There was a good discussion in another thread and it was a fascinating read starting with the exit of Holtz.

Currently it seems the Kelly has made some success in getting things changed (training table, assistant coach pay, etc.) but IDK how far that has actually progressed and on what comparison level that is with other 1A programs.

I don't believe ND is an elite coaching spot though. I think we will always have to hire from the lower tiers (as Lax laid them out, which is apparently the trend). IMO there is no way a 1A or 1B coach comes to ND due to how many "hurdles" there are, such as academic standards, inability to take JuCos, not being at 85 scholarship players in August....and that is fine with me. I will always be a ND fan and any kid who makes it through is ok in my book.

The biggest part was the admin. When Lou left the "Lou" rule was rescinded. The elite coaches wanted the Lou rule put back in to help in recruiting. When they were told no, they would withdraw their name. Add to this the poor choices made for the HC position and that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Jenkins has helped get the program back on track. When he hired Jack and then Jack hired Kelly, you had folks willing to go to the admin and work to change things enough to get some kids who are marginal on the academic side.

Thanks for the answers, they bring me back to the original argument between ACamp and LAX.

With all these hurdles that keep high quality coaches at arms length, are we a better program than Nebraska and Penn State, when it comes to coaching searches(I think that was the original point of discussion)?

It's an interesting debate and I think ND makes it hard on themselves sometimes to truly be that 1A coaching destination.

Are we an overall better program? I would say yes.
Are we a better destination for a coach? I would say debatable, but BK is turning us into one.

 

[IrishLax]

Petrino apparently front runner for Louisville job.

After Petrino, eyes are on the Colorado Stat HC and Pat Narduzzi. Surprised no one is going after Mason from Stanford harder.

 

[Cackalacky]

Thanks for the answers, they bring me back to the original argument between ACamp and LAX.

With all these hurdles that keep high quality coaches at arms length, are we a better program than Nebraska and Penn State, when it comes to coaching searches(I think that was the original point of discussion)?

It's an interesting debate and I think ND makes it hard on themselves sometimes to truly be that 1A coaching destination.

Are we an overall better program? I would say yes.
Are we a better destination for a coach? I would say debatable, but BK is turning us into one.

I don't even know if it is a question that a 1A coach would come here. I would say no way. There is no way a coach from another 1A school comes here. We may get a NFL coach but for Urban Myer, Saban, or Chip Kelly (hypotheticals) to come here, much would have to change.

Its more of a question if can any coach come here and succeed? We will have to find the right guy and get the right kids at ND in order to succeed. Kelly seems like he is really close, or at least been the closest since Holtz left.

 

[IrishLax]

This is where I disagree with you and a few others. Nebraska and PSU has a history of being good. Go back to the Devaney days at Nebraska. They kicked everyone's butt and when Osborn took over they didn't miss a beat. They found recruits and have a long history of being among the elite programs. When JoePa was in his heyday, PSU was always near the top.

To me, you have to look at the programs entire history when you classify schools into 1A, 1B, etc.. If you want to use just the last 10-15 years then that's fine, but then you need to remove tradition from the equation.

I think tradition is definitely part of the equation and Nebraska for sure, and to a slightly lesser degree PSU, have that.

What knocks them down a half-a-tier as a coaching job in my book are the things outside of that. Nebraska doesn't pay Tier 1 money, they pay Tier 2 money. That's a big negative. They also don't have elite recruiting ability anymore because of their location + other factors... they're generally taking the table scraps of Oklahoma, Texas, etc. every cycle which is not what you do if you're a Tier 1 destination. PSU has the sanctions and black mark of Sandusky. They're much closer to being Tier 1A, IMO, because they just need the right coach and some time to completely weather the storm. Nebraska seems dangerously close to regressing even further, I have less hope for them.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't even know if it is a question that a 1A coach would come here. I would say no way. There is no way a coach from another 1A school comes here. We may get a NFL coach but for Urban Myer, Saban, or Chip Kelly (hypotheticals) to come here, much would have to change.

Its more of a question if can any coach come here and succeed? We will have to find the right guy and get the right kids at ND in order to succeed. Kelly seems like he is really close, or at least been the closest since Holtz left.

This was in fact the original premise. That within tiers, coaches almost never, ever move laterally. 1A never goes to 1A. 1B VERY RARELY goes to 1A. Tier 2 goes to Tier 1 with more regularity, but the most common jump is 2 tiers with a good up-and-coming coach. Tier 3 usually goes to Tier 1, Tier 4 usually goes to Tier 2, coordinators or Tier 5 usually go to Tier 3, etc.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I think tradition is definitely part of the equation and Nebraska for sure, and to a slightly lesser degree PSU, have that.

What knocks them down a half-a-tier as a coaching job in my book are the things outside of that. Nebraska doesn't pay Tier 1 money, they pay Tier 2 money. That's a big negative. They also don't have elite recruiting ability anymore because of their location + other factors... they're generally taking the table scraps of Oklahoma, Texas, etc. every cycle which is not what you do if you're a Tier 1 destination. PSU has the sanctions and black mark of Sandusky. They're much closer to being Tier 1A, IMO, because they just need the right coach and some time to completely weather the storm. Nebraska seems dangerously close to regressing even further, I have less hope for them.

I agree. I know Pennsylvania is a better recruiting area, but it's not close to Florida, Texas, or California. I see the same danger for PSU.